dxing
Topic Author
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:02 am

The provision requiring everyone to purchase health insurance mandated by the HHS gets shot down in Court again.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...a-healthcare-idUSTRE77B4J320110812

A divided three-judge panel of the 11th Circuit found that it did not pass muster under that clause or under the power of Congress to tax. The administration has said the penalty for not buying healthcare coverage is akin to a tax.

"This economic mandate represents a wholly novel and potentially unbounded assertion of congressional authority: the ability to compel Americans to purchase an expensive health insurance product they have elected not to buy, and to make them repurchase that insurance product every month for their entire lives," the majority said in its 207-page opinion.



On to the Supreme Court where I'm betting it will suffer the same fate.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
thegreatRDU
Posts: 884
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:47 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:47 am

Let's look at it for what it is.....

45 million Americans lack health care coverage

That is crazy for a 1st world industrialized country.......

Whats wrong with asking for the average fat ass unhealthy American to exude personal responsibility and pay for their own healthcare

As those with health insurance are already footing the bill....

It's one thing to repeal....but what do you do for the 45 million uninsured Americans?
Our Returning Champion
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:57 am

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
The provision requiring everyone to purchase health insurance mandated by the HHS gets shot down in Court again.

Which is pretty much meaningless, I guess, since it's going to the Supreme Court anyway.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 8476
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:17 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
Let's look at it for what it is.....

45 million Americans lack health care coverage

That is crazy for a 1st world industrialized country.......

Whats wrong with asking for the average fat ass unhealthy American to exude personal responsibility and pay for their own healthcare

As those with health insurance are already footing the bill....

It's one thing to repeal....but what do you do for the 45 million uninsured Americans?

Why put them on welfare, it sounds nicer, we will all still pay, healthcare will go further out of reach, for more and more people, the insurance companies, medical, drug companies will get richer, of course they are people, ask Romney. The rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer,a Republican's wet dream.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9821
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:17 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):

Which is pretty much meaningless, I guess, since it's going to the Supreme Court anyway.

Where it will be shot down again.

Look, I support the idea of an individual mandate. But we live under a system of Constitutional Law, and our revered imbecile-in-chief, who was promoted as this brilliant constitutional scholar, didn't think that maybe, if you want to do something that is not allowed by the Constitution, you should pass an amendment to that effect.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
einsteinboricua
Posts: 4618
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
The provision requiring everyone to purchase health insurance mandated by the HHS gets shot down in Court again.

Which in my opinion should not be so. Let Joe Average pick healthcare if he wishes, but don't come crying to hospitals when he finds out that his healthcare cannot cover a procedure.

Obamacare lost a battle (and one that should never happened) but the war still rages on. If I were to poll people, I think people would accept the healthcare law as long as they aren't forced to choose a healthcare or a penalty for failure to do so.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9821
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:49 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):

Obamacare lost a battle (and one that should never happened) but the war still rages on. If I were to poll people, I think people would accept the healthcare law as long as they aren't forced to choose a healthcare or a penalty for failure to do so.

Which frankly would only work if hospitals were not required to treat you if you don't have the ability to pay.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
2707200X
Posts: 4767
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:31 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:07 am

Conservatives will always complain about high taxes and how the rich are getting shafted even if taxes are at a fifty year low. Americans have among the lowest life expectancy in the industrialized world and America it the only industrialized country in the world without universal health care. A healthier population means more people working and therefore more pay into the system. A large population that cannot get treatment for a condition is not American exceptionalism. I think I can pay a little more in evil taxis to insure a healthier population.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9821
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:31 am

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 10):
Conservatives will always complain about high taxes and how the rich are getting shafted even if taxes are at a fifty year low.

Then explain why the current tax rates (or damned close to them - the pre-Bush tax cut rates) produced the highest revenues ever received by the Federal government. The old tax rates of the Eisenhower years were even more full of loopholes than today.

Also explain away how the wealthy in the US pay a larger share of taxes relative to their revenue than any other country in the OECD, including such countries so beloved by Liberals as Sweden, Denmark, or France.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
N867DA
Posts: 927
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:42 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
Also explain away how the wealthy in the US pay a larger share of taxes relative to their revenue than any other country in the OECD, including such countries so beloved by Liberals as Sweden, Denmark, or France.

This is probably because the income distribution in the United States is also very lopsided--there is much more income disparity in the United States.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 9821
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:49 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 12):
This is probably because the income distribution in the United States is also very lopsided--there is much more income disparity in the United States.

Read what I said:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
the wealthy in the US pay a larger share of taxes relative to their revenue than any other country in the OECD

1. Share of taxes of the richest 10% 2. Share of market income of the richest 10% 3. Ratio of shares for richest 10% (1/2)
Australia.....................................36.8.....................................28.6.....................................1.29
Austria.....................................28.5.....................................26.1.....................................1.1
Belgium .....................................25.4.....................................27.1.....................................0.94
Canada.....................................35.8.....................................29.3.....................................1.22
Czech Republic.....................................34.3.....................................29.4.....................................1.17
Denmark.....................................26.2.....................................25.7.....................................1.02
Finland.....................................32.3.....................................26.9..................................... 1.2
France .....................................28..................................... 25.5..................................... 1.1
Germany .....................................31.2 .....................................29.2 .....................................1.07
Iceland .....................................21.6 .....................................24 .....................................0.9
Ireland .....................................39.1 .....................................30.9 .....................................1.26
Italy .....................................42.2 .....................................35.8 .....................................1.18
Japan .....................................28.5 .....................................28.1 .....................................1.01
Korea .....................................27.4 .....................................23.4 .....................................1.17
Luxembourg .....................................30.3 .....................................26.4 .....................................1.15
Netherlands .....................................35.2 .....................................27.5 .....................................1.28
New Zealand .....................................35.9 .....................................30.3 .....................................1.19
Norway .....................................27.4 .....................................28.9 .....................................0.95
Poland .....................................28.3 .....................................33.9 .....................................0.84
Slovak Republic .....................................32 .....................................28 .....................................1.14
Sweden .....................................26.7 .....................................26.6 .....................................1
Switzerland .....................................20.9 .....................................23.5 .....................................0.89
United Kingdom .....................................38.6 .....................................32.3 .....................................1.2
United States .....................................45.1 .....................................33.5 .....................................1.35

OECD-24 .....................................31.6 .....................................28.4 .....................................1.11
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:55 am

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
"This economic mandate represents a wholly novel and potentially unbounded assertion of congressional authority: the ability to compel Americans to purchase an expensive health insurance product they have elected not to buy, and to make them repurchase that insurance product every month for their entire lives," the majority said in its 207-page opinion.

Well done sirs.

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
On to the Supreme Court where I'm betting it will suffer the same fate.

Yep.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Geezer
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:56 am

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
On to the Supreme Court where I'm betting it will suffer the same fate.

I'm betting the same thing..................................

[quote=WarRI1,reply=3]The rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer

If I had a quarter for every time I've heard that "old saw" I'd be a millionaire by now !
Did you ever stop and wonder why so many poor people always seem to stay poor ? There are exceptions, but for the most part..............most poor people tend to do "poor things". Don't believe me ? Go to any poor neighborhood; ride through the alley and check all the trash cans; you will find: tons of beer bottles; ditto for whiskey bottles; tons of lottery ticket stubbs; they all have 42 inch (and up) TV's; many have Cadilacs, Humvee's, Toyota Avalons, etc. etc. etc. Most have fancy clothes, fancy jewelry, fancy this & that, but when it comes to saving 10 bucks from every pay check to retire on, well, they can't seem to be bothered with that; ( the "system" will pay ) So, I repeat......poor people do poor things; (and they tend to stay poor )

And "rich" people ? To start with, there really are only about 3 ways to become rich; No.1 is to "inherit it", No.2 is to have a lot of people working for you; No.3 is to have a lot of money working for you; ( or a combination of 1 & 2 )

Most "poor" people try to do it by playing the lotto, ( or going to Vegas )

How do you suppose all of those "nasty rich people" the Dems love to rave about "not paying their fair share" , ever managed to "get rich" to start with ? A lot of ways actually, but many of them started businesses; ( got a lot of people working for them ) ( see no.3 ) I'll give you just one example............Bill Gates; Bill was in such a hurry to "get rich" he even dropped out of college; ( he was losing too much money ) In just a very short time, not only did Bill become a multi-billionaire, he also hired a lot of "poor shmucks" ( right out of college ) and dozens of them also become at least millionaires. ( and they all bought a lot of "stuff", spent a lot of BUCKS ) all of which caused a lot of other folks to have a job, and I'm guessing even some of them became "rich" ! ( all because of Bill )


[quote=thegreatRDU,reply=1]45 million Americans lack health care coverage


I wonder where I've heard "this" before ? Does that mean that 45 million people who are "rich" should run out and buy it for them ? To start with, that's a very "questionable" number to prove; secondly, and far more to the point, there is one hell of a lot difference between "45 million who "lack" health care, and "45 million who never get any health care" !

A huge % of those who "lack health care" need to be re-classified into "don't bother to BUY health care" ( a few trips to any ER in any big city hospital will blow that "myth" right out of the water.

So.............for the very first time in American history, someone comes along and says, "everyone gotta buy health insurance" whether you want to or not; next year I suppose he'll want a new law that says.........everyone MUST get rich! ( Then our troubles will be all over ! ) Yeah man !

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:03 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Look, I support the idea of an individual mandate. But we live under a system of Constitutional Law, and our revered imbecile-in-chief, who was promoted as this brilliant constitutional scholar, didn't think that maybe, if you want to do something that is not allowed by the Constitution, you should pass an amendment to that effect.

You don't seriously think that he knew the mandate was unconstitutional but pushed it anyway, do you? It's his opinion (and the opinion of his legal team) that it's not unconstitutional. You may not agree with that opinion, which is fine, but your opinion is not the only one (other courts have upheld the law, after all). You may even think that there was some creative interpretation used to reach that conclusion, but that's still not the same ballpark as saying "I know this is unconstitutional, but I'm going to do it anyway".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
1. Share of taxes of the richest 10% 2. Share of market income of the richest 10%

This is a skewed statistic because there's a much larger gap between percentiles at the top of the scale than at the bottom (reflected in the US' relatively high Gini coefficient). Thus, the difference between the income and taxes of someone in the 98th percentile of income compared to someone in the 92nd percentile is going to be higher in the US than in the other countries you mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Un..._Income_Distribution_1947-2007.svg

There's more difference between the 80th and 95th percentiles than there is between the 80th and the 40th percentile. That's going to mess with the distribution between the 90th and 95th, to say nothing of between the 95th and 99th (and thus the 90th and 99th).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
seb146
Posts: 13794
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:04 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
On to the Supreme Court where I'm betting it will suffer the same fate.

Since Bush stacked the court to the right, yes it probably will.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
revered imbecile-in-chief

It looks like you have zero respect for the office of the president. How can you be so un-American? You need to find someplace else to live if you have zero respect and love for this country.

So, this also means I don't need auto insurance. That is mandated, and, according to this ruling, it violates the Constitution.

Also, why didn't the right-wing media pick up on all the court decisions saying the health care bill is completely constitutional? Odd that was never picked up on. Just sayin'
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7867
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:14 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
45 million Americans lack health care coverage

That is crazy for a 1st world industrialized country.......

No it is not. Who says health insurance is the end all be all to healthcare? There is no "proper" level of insurance, it's all relative to each individual case and even then there is subjectivity involved as to how much one really needs.

This idea that everyone needs 100% coverage in all things healthcare is part of the reason health care costs in the US are so high.

[Edited 2011-08-13 08:19:22]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:20 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
Thus, the difference between the income and taxes of someone in the 98th percentile of income compared to someone in the 92nd percentile is going to be higher in the US than in the other countries you mentioned.



And governemnt beruacracy is going to change that how exactly ? By scaring away and taking more from the producers ?

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
This economic mandate represents a wholly novel and potentially unbounded assertion of congressional authority: the ability to compel Americans to purchase an expensive health insurance product they have elected not to buy, and to make them repurchase that insurance product every month for their entire lives



So Michelle Obama could push for the mandate that we all buy the ZUMBA videos and get into shape to save the collective money ?? I can see it now Debbie Schultz , Oprah , Michelle and Dick Durbin all doing ZUMBA in a propaganda commercial.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:26 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
Since Bush stacked the court to the right, yes it probably will.

You guys are playing with fire with Ruthie too. With her health and Obama looking at a tough re-election it could get worse get her out of there already.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:28 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
Since Bush stacked the court to the right, yes it probably will.

"stacked"?
He appointed two judges. Obama has appointed two judges.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
our revered imbecile-in-chief, who was promoted as this brilliant constitutional scholar

It's becoming more & more clear as to why Obama and his handlers has spend over $2 million dollar$ concealing his academic records and other information. I doubt Obama has ever read the Constitution. I know for sure Obama didn't read all 2500+ pages of his own health-care bill.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
Whats wrong with asking for the average fat ass unhealthy American to exude personal responsibility and pay for their own healthcare

That "fat ass unhealthy American" probably would have to spend at least $400 per month if they come on to an insurance plan in bad health. These "fat ass unhealthy American" that you hate so much are low-income and can't afford private insurance. I am very suspicious as to what the IRS would determine 'what someone can afford' for health insurance. Just ask any college bound student applying for federal financial aid about what the government determines what an individual can afford.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
It looks like you have zero respect for the office of the president. How can you be so un-American? You need to find someplace else to live if you have zero respect and love for this country.

...and the comments like; "fat ass unhealthy American" isn't un-American and showing zero respect for this country?
  
Bring back the Concorde
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 7):
Americans have among the lowest life expectancy in the industrialized world and America it the only industrialized country in the world without universal health care.

This is a classic misapplication of statistics. The difference between the life expectancy in the U.S. and the "healthiest" nation in the world (Japan) is about 4 years or 5%. Between the United States and many EU nations, it's only 12 months or about 1%. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather live 1-5% longer than not, but how can you say the difference between the U.S. and other nations is all (or partly) due to their universal coverage and not a myriad of social, cultural, and geographic factors?

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 7):
A healthier population means more people working and therefore more pay into the system.

Our life expectancy is well beyond our average retirement age. The vast majority of Americans who work have coverage that they are satisfied with.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:16 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
45 million Americans lack health care coverage

And if every one of those 45 million people without health care coverage got sick or injured, they would be treated!
 
goblin211
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:30 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:50 pm

Why doesn't the government let the responsibility of providing health care go to the states? they can raise sales tax maybe two percent here and maybe another percent or two somewhere else, whatever they need to. this way, health care is covered and it's more affordable for the poor than to make them pay for something they can't afford. I don;t think the burden of health care should be supported by the federal government but should be by the state government. after all, every state has already various tax pros and cons.

Essentially, make it the states' responsibility to provide it and make it the states' responsibility to find the $$ needed to do so OR those who can afford to do so can provide it for themselves. Just like air travel, if you can afford your own jet that's fine or you can use public airports...it's your choice.
From the airport with love
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 21):
Essentially, make it the states' responsibility to provide it and make it the states' responsibility to find the $$ needed to do so OR those who can afford to do so can provide it for themselves. Just like air travel, if you can afford your own jet that's fine or you can use public airports...it's your choice.

How about letting people go over state lines? Would be a good start in solving the real problem. Cost.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:58 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:12 pm

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
The provision requiring everyone to purchase health insurance mandated by the HHS gets shot down in Court again.

Perhaps my "health insurance" rates will be reduced now. After this farce got through a couple years ago my rate more than doubled and I don't believe in coincidence.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Ken777
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:41 pm

Those hoping for a Supreme Court rejection of this one part of the law are probably assuming that it will take down all parts of the law. Not necessarily.

The first group to be screwed will, ironically, be the private insurance companies who based their support on obtaining a lot of new customers. That is going to change.

The ability of employers dumping the costs of their nanny care also increases, and the desirability to tax those nanny care benefits as income (which is it) is also increased. The country cannot afford that loophole any more - not when there is talk of breaking down Medicare and Medicaid.

And it, of course, open the door for expanded government use of Medicare as a public option. I'm in favor of putting all government employees on Medicare - including politicians.

"Obamacare" essentially put additional reforms on aback shelf for a few years. A bad USSC decision will put it front and center.

And before celebrating that you need to check your employers P&L to see how much that nanny care cost takes from profits.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12362
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:56 pm

Although I would consider my political self to be left of center, I have to agree with this Circuit Court decision but more on economic reasons.
To mandate by law and a financial penalty for someone to spend a certain amount of their incomes to pay for health insurance is a dangerous policy.
What if you are out of work and cannot find work with partially paid benefits or only able to get a low-paid or part-time job?
What if you have a bad health history or older meaning you may have to pay obscene premiums?
What if you have a mortgage or past credit card debt you need to pay?
What if you have a child support, tax or other lein on your income,
If you have to buy health insurance, you may not have enough money to survive, for food, for housing so you and your family may have to be homeless or live with relatives.
If you cannot pay, can you get out of it via Bankruptcy? (probably not).
It also means, as others have noted, supporting corrupt and greedy HC Insurance companies.

You know millions will say they are part of exempt groups, ie: Amish, hide income to get below subsidies caps, refuse to pay tax penalties, or just get insurance long enough (as many did with car insurance) to get by the IRS.

Then there is the dangerous and possible unconstitutional use of the IRS to enforce other laws.

Of course, most employers, especially smaller ones, will ditch their health insurance benefits to most employees, saying it is your problem, not ours to fund with ever increasing premiums hurting profits and incomes of owners.

With our massive debt problem, declining incomes of most Americans and a huge reluctance to pay more taxes by all income groups, and continuing exponential increases in the costs of health care, there will never be enough money to subsidise the health care insurance needs of a majority of Americans or their families. To mandate individuals and families to have HCI is correctly unconsititional and will be unworkable.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:50 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 22):
How about letting people go over state lines? Would be a good start in solving the real problem. Cost.

Letting the health care regulation system become a race to the bottom would not be a good idea.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
Topic Author
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:06 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 24):
Those hoping for a Supreme Court rejection of this one part of the law are probably assuming that it will take down all parts of the law. Not necessarily.

According to the Presidents men, and members of Congress, if that part of the funding is taken away from the law, it pretty much destroys the rest of the pipe dream.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
Letting the health care regulation system become a race to the bottom would not be a good idea.

Unfortunately with the government setting the standards that's what is ready to happen.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
photopilot
Posts: 3062
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:25 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
It's one thing to repeal....but what do you do for the 45 million uninsured Americans?

Simple answer.... you throw em to the dogs. The USA is a dog-eat-dog world where people on the top don't give a rat's ass about anybody else. If the poor starve, have health issues, etc, the well-to-doers always fall back to the simplistic answer of "it's their own fault".

In terms of health care, that assumes that every person is dealth the same health cards into their hand at birth. The old... if I don't need health care and take care of myself, it MUST be your FAULT that you're unhealthy. No thoughtis given to pre-disposed conditions, heriditary conditions, or just plain bad luck in the draw.

The whole bloody thing is very sad that a modern industrialized society cannot take care of the health needs of ALL it's citizens, and share the cost among ALL the citizens. It's an idelogical battle with only losers, no winners.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:43 am

Quoting dxing (Thread starter):
On to the Supreme Court where I'm betting it will suffer the same fate.

Not necesarily, the current court is very corpartist and this bill gives private insurance 45 million new customers, so I can see some judges voting to uphold this bill on those merits alone
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:03 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
Unfortunately with the government setting the standards that's what is ready to happen.

At least there'd still be some accountability for the residents of 49 states.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
Topic Author
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:32 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
At least there'd still be some accountability for the residents of 49 states.


I don't see how. In most of these types of laws the government indemnifies itself by inserting language that says you can't sue them for their poor decisions.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Ken777
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:44 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
if that part of the funding is taken away from the law, it pretty much destroys the rest of the pipe dream.

So back to the nightmares? More medical bankruptcies - even by people with insurance?

ANd do you think employers will forever provide you with nanny care that is no longer affordable You have it now because of union negotiated benefits - and you probably want to kill the unions.

BTW, can you identify the clause in the law that terminates it is the USSC goes against the mandate?  
Quoting dxing (Reply 27):
Unfortunately with the government setting the standards that's what is ready to happen.

Who do you think sets standards for doctor's training, licensing, hospital certifications, drug & medical equipment approvals,etc. WIthout the government you hate so much you would find more snake oil on the market than viable medications.

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
At least there'd still be some accountability for the residents of 49 states.

        

Especially those states without bad faith laws.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:44 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 25):
To mandate by law and a financial penalty for someone to spend a certain amount of their incomes to pay for health insurance is a dangerous policy.
What if you are out of work and cannot find work with partially paid benefits or only able to get a low-paid or part-time job?
What if you have a bad health history or older meaning you may have to pay obscene premiums?
What if you have a mortgage or past credit card debt you need to pay?
What if you have a child support, tax or other lein on your income,
If you have to buy health insurance, you may not have enough money to survive, for food, for housing so you and your family may have to be homeless or live with relatives.
If you cannot pay, can you get out of it via Bankruptcy? (probably not).
It also means, as others have noted, supporting corrupt and greedy HC Insurance companies.

You know millions will say they are part of exempt groups, ie: Amish, hide income to get below subsidies caps, refuse to pay tax penalties, or just get insurance long enough (as many did with car insurance) to get by the IRS.

Then there is the dangerous and possible unconstitutional use of the IRS to enforce other laws.

Of course, most employers, especially smaller ones, will ditch their health insurance benefits to most employees, saying it is your problem, not ours to fund with ever increasing premiums hurting profits and incomes of owners.

With our massive debt problem, declining incomes of most Americans and a huge reluctance to pay more taxes by all income groups, and continuing exponential increases in the costs of health care, there will never be enough money to subsidise the health care insurance needs of a majority of Americans or their families. To mandate individuals and families to have HCI is correctly unconsititional and will be unworkable.

        
Amen Ltbewr!
My thoughts exactly!
The penalties are what angers I the most about Obamacare and I DO support a national health-care policy that works. Not the bs legislation that Obama passed. By the way, what is with all of these exemptions? Obama has issued well over 1000 exemptions to his closest allies of his own health-care bill. I'm just now reading that select religious and political groups such as Muslims are exempt from Obamacare and we all know how Obama feels about this group. Is this for real? Has anyone got to that page yet?
Where is the ACLU?
Bring back the Concorde
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:28 am

Quoting dxing (Reply 31):
I don't see how. In most of these types of laws the government indemnifies itself by inserting language that says you can't sue them for their poor decisions.

You can vote in people who will make different decisions.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
dxing
Topic Author
Posts: 5859
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 5:14 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:10 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
So back to the nightmares? More medical bankruptcies - even by people with insurance?

I see we never left fear mongering behind.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
Who do you think sets standards for doctor's training, licensing, hospital certifications

The STATES, not the federal government.

Quoting Mir (Reply 34):
You can vote in people who will make different decisions.

Yep, we've had such success at that over the course of the past 50 years.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
Ken777
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
I see we never left fear mongering behind.

Which is why we don't have a public option, or a universal Medicare. We do have a system where paying for private insurance profits is more important than the heath of Americans.

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
The STATES, not the federal government.

And states comply with Federal standards. That is how they get funding for Medicaid and funding for research at various hospitals and medical centers.

It is also how local providers, like, say, M D Anderson, is accepted to join research or clinical trials on new medications or devices.

Even a doctor's licensing exam in a state is a national test and most states use the national scores to set their pass/fail rate.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:39 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
So back to the nightmares? More medical bankruptcies - even by people with insurance?


There is no such thing as "medical bankruptcy". You can file bankruptcy and list your medical bills, along with all your other bills.

Bankruptcy is bankruptcy, there are different Chapters 7, 11,13 etc. but nothing call "medical".
 
seb146
Posts: 13794
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:13 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
the comments like; "fat ass unhealthy American" isn't un-American and showing zero respect for this country?

The point I was trying to make was that for 8 years under Bush, when anyone would make any negative remarks about him or criticize him in any way, this is the same thing we were told.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
He appointed two judges. Obama has appointed two judges.

And Bush elevated one to head justice before he was even confirmed!

Quoting 474218 (Reply 37):
There is no such thing as "medical bankruptcy". You can file bankruptcy and list your medical bills, along with all your other bills.

So, when people get sick with things like cancer and parkensons and are on a fixed income, how will they pay for treatment? No insurance company will take them without outrageous premiums. They can't declare bankrutcy over and over and over to cover those costs. What are we to do then?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:13 pm

Obamacare is not about helping poor people ... it is about poor voters who once they believe its free will vote D no matter what . It is about bureaucracy , central planning and locking the citizens into voter blocks. It is also about stripping wealth from producers in the name of fairness and back flowing it to the operators in Washington to buy votes .

They don't care about you OK ? I mean really ... Ken ? You really think Dick Durbin cares about your family ? And you are right about the mandate ,Bachman knows that the GOP are focusing too narrow on this mandate. She wants full repeal of the law . The mandate is a feint by the administration ... they hope it does get removed from the law. It will bring the single payer system even quicker !
Remember ... Obama care is just a trap to raise costs and frame the cry for single payer. That is all it is designed to do in my opinion.

Any sensible person can see that once we got the Fed involved with expanding Medicare budgets , costs for services go up. Providers see the government as a endless cash flow ... it kills competition , breeds stagnation and creates fake market standards.

And the number one reason .... WE CANT AFFORD IT ???

Quoting photopilot (Reply 28):
The whole bloody thing is very sad that a modern industrialized society cannot take care of the health needs of ALL it's citizens, and share the cost among ALL the citizens. It's an ideological battle with only losers, no winners.



We do ...they just need to get a job first and contribute. If they don't then it is a hard cold world for them . And may I remind you that we spend 5 times more than 90% of the rest of the world on health care benefits for the "poor". Danny Glover will never say that I know ...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:37 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 35):
Yep, we've had such success at that over the course of the past 50 years.

Still a better option than letting a handful of states set the standards for the rest of the country.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 39):
...they just need to get a job first and contribute. If they don't then it is a hard cold world for them .

More than a quarter of people in Texas don't have health insurance. You're going to tell me that all of them are unemployed?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8549
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:04 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
More than a quarter of people in Texas don't have health insurance. You're going to tell me that all of them are unemployed?

There is a difference between being unemployed and not having a job. Texas has a population of about 25 million but the workforce is closer to 15 million.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
You're going to tell me that all of them are unemployed?



I did not have health insurance until I was 25 .... until I had kids. When you are young and healthy it is pretty easy to take out a cheap catastrophic plan to cover accidents . I would say that out of the 1/4 of the people in Texas most of them choose not to have it.

I would rather have people who take responsibility and figure out how to protect their families than ones who just rely on their neighbors to help them. Give me a country of people who strive and fear failure over dependent weaklings any day. Life is hard its up to you to make good choices ,protect your family and engage in industrious endeavours . That is what creates prosperity for the masses ... not government assistance.

But hey ... I am old fashioned .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13403
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:11 pm

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
45 million Americans lack health care coverage

You forget (or have chosen to ignore) the fact that many of them lack it by PERSONAL CHOICE - they're young people who are healthy and have decided that expensive health-insurance coverage is something they don't want to purchase at this point.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
Let's look at it for what it is.....

We are. It's unconstitutional, and the judges have agreed.

At no point in U.S. history has being a citizen mandated the purchase of anything solely because you're alive, and that's what this law proposed.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
So, this also means I don't need auto insurance. That is mandated, and, according to this ruling, it violates the Constitution.

A foolish argument. Car insurance is only mandatory if you own a car, but owning a car is a choice. You're not REQUIRED to own a car as a condition of being alive.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
flanker
Posts: 1407
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:42 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:32 pm

The states are the ones to decide what they want to do, not the federal government via mandates. If Illinois or California for example wants to adopt a single payer then put it to a vote and let the people decide. If it works (which it wont) then other states can do the same if they want to. That's the beauty of the whole system that the framers put down. Trial and error on a individual state basis, a melting pot of ideas which if successful can be implemented on a larger scale.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 43):
A foolish argument. Car insurance is only mandatory if you own a car, but owning a car is a choice. You're not REQUIRED to own a car as a condition of being alive.

I don't know how people don't understand that its a BS argument. Grapes to melons.

I wonder if they will bitch if the feds imposed a mandate on all states>people to own at least 1 car and then what insurance to buy.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
Ken777
Posts: 9024
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:26 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 37):
There is no such thing as "medical bankruptcy".
Quoting 474218 (Reply 37):
Bankruptcy is bankruptcy, there are different Chapters 7, 11,13 etc. but nothing call "medical".

There isn't a specific chapter for a medical bankruptcy, but it is well known that US health care costs drive people into filing.

And it is pretty well understood that a large percentage of filings is solely due to unmanageable medical bills. And in the majority of those cases there was private insurance.

Quote:

This year, an estimated 1.5 million Americans will declare bankruptcy. Many people may chalk up that misfortune to overspending or a lavish lifestyle, but a new study suggests that more than 60 percent of people who go bankrupt are actually capsized by medical bills.

Bankruptcies due to medical bills increased by nearly 50 percent in a six-year period, from 46 percent in 2001 to 62 percent in 2007, and most of those who filed for bankruptcy were middle-class, well-educated homeowners, according to a report that will be published in the August issue of The American Journal of Medicine.
Quote:

Overall, three-quarters of the people with a medically-related bankruptcy had health insurance, they say.

"That was actually the predominant problem in patients in our study -- 78 percent of them had health insurance, but many of them were bankrupted anyway because there were gaps in their coverage like co-payments and deductibles and uncovered services," says Woolhandler. "Other people had private insurance but got so sick that they lost their job and lost their insurance."
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/h...cies-health-insurance?_s=PM:HEALTH

So the simple reality is that the latest court decision will simply increase these problems. They certainly won't help them.
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 38):
No insurance company will take them without outrageous premiums. They can't declare bankrutcy over and over and over to cover those costs. What are we to do then?


They get treated. Hospitals (and the doctors on staff) are not allowed to turn way any person that is ill, they must be treated regardless of their financial status.

Perhaps you have heard how pregnant women cross the border to have their babies born in a US hospital. Then return home with being charged a dime! And the child becomes a US citizen?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 45):
There isn't a specific chapter for a medical bankruptcy...


I think that is what I told you?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8529
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 37):
There is no such thing as "medical bankruptcy".

Not per se, but there are litanies of bankruptcies incurred by hard working, insured individuals who were otherwise on the up and up before bad luck struck.

My mom's middle brother just had a severe cerebral hemorrhage at 54, nearly died after two operations to reduce pressure on his brain, and now requires daily home care because nerve damage caused by the bleeding gave him loss of bowel control and use of his right side limbs. He was running a successful catering business that had been in the black nine years out of eleven and was self-insured on a limited plan running $400 a month. He has two kids in college, lost his home in a divorce five years ago, and in just five months since the incident has incurred medical bills of over $500,000, of which he has to pay more than $320K out of pocket. My aunt does PR and threw a fundraiser for him but the $30K raised is hardly a drop in the bucket. My grandparents have naturally kicked in additional substantial sums from their nest egg to help their son, but it's not enough. How many people do you know at his age who can come up with a spare $320K? Not to mention his insurer isn't covering a big chunk because he occasionally missed doses of his blood pressure medication. Why should all of that be necessary for a guy who worked hard, ran their own business, kept seven people employed for a decade, and was insured? Give me an effin' break. The system is broken.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 47):
in just five months since the incident has incurred medical bills of over $500,000, of which he has to pay more than $320K out of pocket.


Does he have the 320K?

o If yes, he should have to pay it.

o If no, the hospitals and doctors will write it off.

o If they write it off they will still treat him.

I do agree that the system is broken, but turning it over to the government is not the way to get it fixed.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Obamacare Loses In Court Again

Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 38):
And Bush elevated one to head justice before he was even confirmed!

...and the Chief Justice has only one vote just like all other 8 judges.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 38):
The point I was trying to make was that for 8 years under Bush, when anyone would make any negative remarks about him or criticize him in any way, this is the same thing we were told.

No we were not told that.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 39):
Bachman knows that the GOP are focusing too narrow on this mandate.

That is what has me angry about Obamacare, so far…
As people sift through the 2500+ pages of this scheme, more and more feces is being exposed. I was floored when I read that certain religious groups including Muslims were exempt from penalties. This is just mind-blowing.
Bring back the Concorde

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rfields5421 and 10 guests