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Aaron747
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Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:11 pm

The prison industrial complex in the Golden State is both recession and budget crisis proof, as luck would have it. Rather than reducing overcrowding by eliminating stupid laws like Three Strikes that keep purse snatchers and drug offenders behind bars, they just continue to build more, more, more. Are the lights still on anywhere in California? For crying out loud...

AB900 was signed into law in May 2007, authorizing $7.4 billion in lease revenue bonds for the construction or expansion of prisons, jails and re-entry centers. Nearly half of that money, $3.5 billion, will be used to add new beds and treatment and programming space at existing prisons.

Seems like officials are spending their time worrying about how to make use of these new facilities rather than figuring out ways to kill AB900 and keep community colleges and elementary schools open in the wake of the recently announced $500 million deficit that suddenly appeared despite Governor Brown's achievement of nearly $20 billion in cuts. Delinquency on display folks.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...c/a/2011/08/14/MNHN1KJ12V.DTL&ao=3
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NIKV69
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:33 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
Rather than reducing overcrowding by eliminating stupid laws like Three Strikes that keep purse snatchers and drug offenders behind bars, they just continue to build more, more, more. Are the lights still on anywhere in California? For crying out loud...

How about we let all those "petty" criminals out but send them to live in your neighboorhood?

You are right about CA but their money problems are far from caused by prisons.
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Aaron747
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):

How about we let all those "petty" criminals out but send them to live in your neighboorhood?

Highly unlikely since nobody with a criminal record can get a Japanese visa  

In any case there are mountains of studies that show the wrong people are behind bars in CA to a large extent. Over 200 shootings this year to date in Oakland alone, and they've hardly caught anyone thanks to scared citizens who won't talk and cop layoffs that have reduced the ability of OPD to put a presence in gang areas. If anyone belongs in prisons, it's guys who push drugs on middle school kids and 20-somethings who shoot indiscriminately at houses in their own neighborhood. Let the purse snatchers who were trying to get cash for a fix go!
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NIKV69
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:04 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
Highly unlikely since nobody with a criminal record can get a Japanese visa

Ahh NIMBY rears it's ugly head once again.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
In any case there are mountains of studies that show the wrong people are behind bars in CA to a large extent.

Care to post some?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
Over 200 shootings this year to date in Oakland alone, and they've hardly caught anyone thanks to scared citizens who won't talk and cop layoffs that have reduced the ability of OPD to put a presence in gang areas.

Well brings us back to why CA has real problems. Out of control teacher unions and ignoring illegal immigration. If you want to use your funds for people who sneak into the country and have your teachers highest paid in the nation well I guess that is why they still elect progressives. It's working wonders.
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Superfly
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:56 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):

Wow, I am shocked!
California has too many prisons as it is. The state just doesn't get it.
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LAXintl
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:26 pm

We are desperate for beds, so yes there is a definite and urgent need for added prison capacity.

The alternative of releasing 1000's of offenders back into society due lack of space is nightmare I hope we never come to see.
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MD-90
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:32 pm

Time to end the drug war. Legalize it and tax it. It will substantially reduce the crime problem in Mexico and Colombia (not that the voting American public gives a damn about the lives of any foreigners, but still) and vastly reduce the number of prisoners in the US.

How can we hypocritically call ourselves "the land of the free" when we imprison more people, on both a total basis and a per capita basis, than any other country on the planet?! 1920 called, they want their Prohibition back.
 
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:54 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 6):
Time to end the drug war. Legalize it and tax it. It will substantially reduce the crime problem in Mexico and Colombia (not that the voting American public gives a damn about the lives of any foreigners, but still) and vastly reduce the number of prisoners in the US.

Legailizing all drugs is the way to go. Hopefully someone will wake up to this soon.
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StuckInCA
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
You are right about CA but their money problems are far from caused by prisons

They certainly play their part. It's really the pension costs of prison guards that is a real problem.
 
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:12 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 8):
They certainly play their part. It's really the pension costs of prison guards that is a real problem.

Huh? You selectively leave out the rest of the public employees and unions? Come on this prison thing is such a red herring and designed to take everyone's eye off the ball. You think letting out petty criminals is going to solve anything?
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Aaron747
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:36 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
Huh? You selectively leave out the rest of the public employees and unions? Come on this prison thing is such a red herring and designed to take everyone's eye off the ball. You think letting out petty criminals is going to solve anything?

No this is part of the problem actually. See below for how much it costs for incarcerating non-violent three strikers alone. The remaining public unions are a tremendous problem and that has been posted numerous times before. Remember my GOP grandma who says "like hell you're cutting my state pension when cops are making $150K on theirs!"?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):

Legailizing all drugs is the way to go.

Well that was part of my original point actually. They're wasting huge sums of money on people who don't belong in prison.

Loyola Law School professor Laurie Levenson, a former federal prosecutor and veteran criminal law scholar, points to the high recidivism rate and past cuts in funding for prison rehabilitation and education programs as a formula for continued — even worse — crowding.

"We have to stop the insanity of sending nonviolent drug offenders and low-level theft offenders to prison for life," Levenson said. "Nobody is saying we should let murderers out.... We have to stop the revolving door of parolees being returned for minor violations."


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/25/local/la-me-prisons-20110525

Even conservative Stanford has a think tank devoted to killing Three Strikes and its focus on minor drug offenses:

California's State Auditor estimates that the Three Strikes law adds over $19 billion to the state's prison budget.

http://www.law.stanford.edu/program/...rikesproject/#three_strikes_basics

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
Ahh NIMBY rears it's ugly head once again.

Don't look at me, my wife's the one who thinks living in the States sucks.  Smile

[Edited 2011-08-14 16:37:35]
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StuckInCA
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:59 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 9):
Huh? You selectively leave out the rest of the public employees and unions? Come on this prison thing is such a red herring and designed to take everyone's eye off the ball. You think letting out petty criminals is going to solve anything?

Well you can throw others in if you like, but that's not the topic of the thread. CA corrections has over 68,000 employees making an average take home pay of $70,000 dollars. 768 of them made over $203,884. That's lunacy.

They can retire at 50 with 90% salary. Not all public employees have that option (correct me if I'm wrong). Basically nobody in the real world has that option.

Releasing people who are incarcerated for long sentences for non-violent crimes like a small amount of marijuana or shoplifting would make a ton of sense - - unless you're in the business of incarcerating people.
 
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 11):
Well you can throw others in if you like, but that's not the topic of the thread. CA corrections has over 68,000 employees making an average take home pay of $70,000 dollars. 768 of them made over $203,884. That's lunacy.

As opposed to teachers who sometimes average 90k and supers who are making 250,000 to 300,000? And never have to worry about getting stabbed or killed?

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/01/26/995...how-well-your-school-district.html

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 11):
Releasing people who are incarcerated for long sentences for non-violent crimes like a small amount of marijuana or shoplifting would make a ton of sense - - unless you're in the business of incarcerating people.

We know went from purse snatching to shoplifting? Needless to say I doubt anyone shoplifting is doing any serious time or people who are smoking a joint in fact now in CA if you get caught with a joint you don't even get arrested.
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Aaron747
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:08 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
We know went from purse snatching to shoplifting? Needless to say I doubt anyone shoplifting is doing any serious time or people

You asked for links and still don't believe it? $19 billion is a huge number. Stanford is a conservative academic institution by the way.
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StuckInCA
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:26 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
As opposed to teachers who sometimes average 90k and supers who are making 250,000 to 300,000? And never have to worry about getting stabbed or killed?

C'mon. Sometimes. What does that even mean in this context.

Why are you trying to turn this into an anti-teacher thread?

Teachers don't retire at 50 and when they do, they sure don't get 90% of their salary.
 
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:17 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
In any case there are mountains of studies that show the wrong people are behind bars in CA to a large exten

The mixture of being "tough on crime" rather than smart on crime and an out of control prison guard union means anyone who can be imprisoned will be imprisoned, for the flimsiest of reasons.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 11):
Well you can throw others in if you like, but that's not the topic of the thread. CA corrections has over 68,000 employees making an average take home pay of $70,000 dollars. 768 of them made over $203,884. That's lunacy.

  

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
As opposed to teachers who sometimes average 90k and supers who are making 250,000 to 300,000? And never have to worry about getting stabbed or killed?

Does the prison budget pay teachers? In any case I'd be glad to pay $90K to a good teacher, and so should everyone else. Prison guards however, can pretty much be replaced by a doberman and a camera. There's no such thing as a good one and they aren't worth more money.
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something
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:40 pm

I swore I didn't want to do this anymore, but oh well..

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
If you want to use your funds for people who sneak into the country

The Californinan agriculture could not exist without illegal immigrants.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
have your teachers highest paid in the nation

The cost of living is higher in California than in the rest of the nation. And yet, teachers are paid much less there than in most other industrialized nations. Hence, the amazing results American students score in international comparisons. Or the educated remarks one comes across on airliners.net more often than not.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 6):
Time to end the drug war. Legalize it and tax it. It will substantially reduce the crime problem in Mexico and Colombia (not that the voting American public gives a damn about the lives of any foreigners, but still) and vastly reduce the number of prisoners in the US.

It's not only that my friend. Americans in general prefer to lock people up, than ask themselves why the crime came into existence in the first place and why other nations or states don't have the same problems. Prisons don't lower the crime rate, they're merely an indicator of how broken a society is.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):
Legailizing all drugs is the way to go. Hopefully someone will wake up to this soon.

All drugs?  
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 7):

Legailizing all drugs is the way to go.

Well that was part of my original point actually. They're wasting huge sums of money on people who don't belong in prison.

And that's the joke. Leaving criminals free? Hell no. Making the offenses they're doing time for legal and thus, letting people who we before the law amendment called criminals out, yes. That's a very interesting logic.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 11):
Releasing people who are incarcerated for long sentences for non-violent crimes like a small amount of marijuana or shoplifting would make a ton of sense - - unless you're in the business of incarcerating people.

Prisons don't solve crimes. On the contrary, throw everybody in jail and they'll lose their deterrent function because nobody fears going to jail anymore, everybody's been there already anyway. I also find it quite interesting that the land of the free is so easy on putting people behind bars. But why ask for sensible laws and fines, when jail sounds so satisfying?

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14):
Teachers don't retire at 50 and when they do, they sure don't get 90% of their salary.

Teachers are also an a little bit more important element to the prosperity of a nation than prison guards. That's of course only true, if education means something to you.
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seb146
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:56 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
We are desperate for beds, so yes there is a definite and urgent need for added prison capacity.
Quoting MD-90 (Reply 6):
Time to end the drug war. Legalize it and tax it. It will substantially reduce the crime problem in Mexico and Colombia

These two comments seem to go hand-in-hand. I do not agree with it reducing crime in Mexico and Columbia because, while pot is not a heavy offence in some states, drug cartels can still make a handsome profit off it in most states. The West Coast (California in particular) seems to have the best growing climate for it. So, legalize it and tax it just like alcohol or tobacco. There are still people who are caught in posession of marijuana in California and also are charged with some sort of violent crime as well. However, I have seen police in Oregon and California knowing full well someone is smoking and just the police just keep on going. The smell is unmistakeable.

What I don't understand is: Why is the federal government so hard on California over pot but not hard at all on Colorado, Alaska, and Montana?
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NIKV69
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:15 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14):
Why are you trying to turn this into an anti-teacher thread?

I'm not I just merely rebutted that it's just the prison guards who are to blame for the underfunded pension mess CA has let themselves get into.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 14):
Teachers don't retire at 50 and when they do, they sure don't get 90% of their salary.

They also don't have a quarter of the stress and put their lives in any sort of jeapordy like Prison guards do. Is 90% a little ridiculous? Sure but you can't even compare teachers to guards and then conviently forget how some teachers are making 90k and supers making 300k. It's lunacy.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
The Californinan agriculture could not exist without illegal immigrants.

Bull..

Quoting something (Reply 16):
The cost of living is higher in California than in the rest of the nation. And yet, teachers are paid much less there than in most other industrialized nations

Source? Here's mine.

http://www.worldsalaries.org/teacher.shtml

You are way off.. US teachers, esp in CA are making between 60-90k see my source above.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
All drugs?

Oh so now you pick and choose? Doesn't work that way. Why are we going to waste time busting people for coke when it accomplishes nothing? It still comes into this country by the ton and nobody can stop it. Yet people get beheaded daily in Mexico because of it being illegal. Legalize it and the Cartels collapse and police in the US can work on things like murders and rapes and kidnappings.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 18):
They also don't have a quarter of the stress and put their lives in any sort of jeapordy like Prison guards do.

Oh please; prison guards are the epitome of the caricature of government employees--lazy, nasty, enormously over paid. I thought the folks at the DMV were bad. Then I met prison guards and realized the DMV employees were hardworking saints.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 18):
Bull..

How much do you think produce would cost if it was picked by anyone other than illegal immigrants desperate for income? I say keep the illegals, expel the evangelicals 
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slider
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:45 pm

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_806ABCC.pdf

CA state prison population has grown 3x faster than state population since 1990.
• Drug offenders comprise 21% (down from 28% in the past 15 years) of the whole.
• According to this report, 17% of all are foreign born nationals. 60% of those are from Mexico.

It’s an interesting report, and there is plenty of other data out there as well, but when nearly FORTY PERCENT of all inmates are either illegals or in for drug offenses, that’s a massive red flag.

Also, this report is just about inmates; the pension and pay issues of the criminal justice system is a legitimate issue that could probably use reformation as well, as noted in prior posts.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:49 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Oh please; prison guards are the epitome of the caricature of government employees--lazy, nasty, enormously over paid. I thought the folks at the DMV were bad. Then I met prison guards and realized the DMV employees were hardworking saints.

Wow someone has a ax to grind. This statement is so stereotypical and silly.

Truth is they do a thankless job and get stabbed, spit on and have excrement thrown at them. Unless you can do that job for a month I wouldn't comment. Their pensions made need some reform but they are far from overpaid.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
I say keep the illegals, expel the evangelicals

Go for it but I hope Brown doesn't call D.C. asking for a bailout, he may not like the answer.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Lunacy - CA Spending Billions On New Prisons

Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:00 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):
Truth is they do a thankless job and get stabbed, spit on and have excrement thrown at them.

Sounds like public school teachers are pretty much in the same boat.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):

Wow someone has a ax to grind. This statement is so stereotypical and silly.

Not really--government employees + strong union + psychological effects of having power over incarcerated individuals = makes for some really nasty behavior that goes totally unchecked.
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