Ken777
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Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:07 pm

Warren Buffett does it again - with all the Tea Party folks cry out that we need to protect the wealthiest (because they are "job creators who don't create jobs.) Warren tells it like he sees it.

Quote:

"While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks," wrote Buffett, who has mentioned in past interviews that the rich should pay higher taxes.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/15/news...ffett_tax_jobs/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2

Maybe we should listen to a guy who is simply cutting through the fluff.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:17 pm

If he feels so bad, he can "donate" money to the IRS.

In the mean time, lets keep the governments hands out of American's pockets.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:20 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Warren Buffett does it again - with all the Tea Party folks cry out that we need to protect the wealthiest (because they are "job creators who don't create jobs.) Warren tells it like he sees it.

You realize he's talking about people that make over $1 million a year, not Obama's plan to increase taxes on households making $250,.000 or more right?

And, we have just as big, if not more, of a spending problem as we do a revenue problem.

[Edited 2011-08-15 15:23:38]
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:27 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
If he feels so bad, he can "donate" money to the IRS

Before this thread was started, I knew that when it was, one of the first 3 responses would be exactly this.

The thing is, people will work within the set of rules that exist (hopefully). If he decides to donate money to the government, that doesn't mean anyone else would. It doesn't help to fix anything. If rules are changed such that people have to pay more then... maybe they will.

He's suggesting that the fact that he paid a far lower percentage in taxes than his office staff is silly. And it is.

The sorts of changes he propose won't fix our problems, but they are one step in the right direction. More revenue. Less spending. Sure you're not going enough money from the ultra-rich to close the gap (nor should you), but you've got to get more money from somewhere! People living paycheck to paycheck don't have any for you.
 
Mir
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:00 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 2):
You realize he's talking about people that make over $1 million a year, not Obama's plan to increase taxes on households making $250,.000 or more right?

One of the great failings of both the Democrats and the Republicans is the refusal to recognize the fact that there's a difference between people making $250k and $1 million a year, and there's a difference between the people making $1 million a year and $10 million a year. I think all of them should be paying higher taxes than they are now, but they shouldn't be in the same bracket.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
NIKV69
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:15 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Warren tells it like he sees it.

Right up to the part where he writes a check which he never seems to do.

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Maybe we should listen to a guy who is simply cutting through the fluff.

Oh he has written a check? No he hasn't. Put up or shut up.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
If he feels so bad, he can "donate" money to the IRS.

  

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 3):
He's suggesting that the fact that he paid a far lower percentage in taxes than his office staff is silly. And it is.

Then why doesn't he write a check?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Klaus
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:19 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
If he feels so bad, he can "donate" money to the IRS.

That is simply not possible. Taxes cannot be "donated".

But Buffet is in fact a huge donor for various causes.

I'm sure your concern for his financial wellbeing will warm his heart. Or rather – given his outlook on things – he may merely shake his head in puzzled disbelief at the thoroughly ideological self-mutilation of some people.

CNN doesn't seem to link directly to Buffet's op-ed article. This is it:

Stop Coddling the Super-Rich - NYTimes.com

In my view the operative passage:

Quote:
Back in the 1980s and 1990s, tax rates for the rich were far higher, and my percentage rate was in the middle of the pack. According to a theory I sometimes hear, I should have thrown a fit and refused to invest because of the elevated tax rates on capital gains and dividends.

I didn’t refuse, nor did others. I have worked with investors for 60 years and I have yet to see anyone — not even when capital gains rates were 39.9 percent in 1976-77 — shy away from a sensible investment because of the tax rate on the potential gain. People invest to make money, and potential taxes have never scared them off. And to those who argue that higher rates hurt job creation, I would note that a net of nearly 40 million jobs were added between 1980 and 2000. You know what’s happened since then: lower tax rates and far lower job creation.

Since 1992, the I.R.S. has compiled data from the returns of the 400 Americans reporting the largest income. In 1992, the top 400 had aggregate taxable income of $16.9 billion and paid federal taxes of 29.2 percent on that sum. In 2008, the aggregate income of the highest 400 had soared to $90.9 billion — a staggering $227.4 million on average — but the rate paid had fallen to 21.5 percent.

[...]

My friends and I have been coddled long enough by a billionaire-friendly Congress. It’s time for our government to get serious about shared sacrifice.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:24 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
That is simply not possible. Taxes cannot be "donated".

You actually can gift money to the US Treasury as I understand it.

The "he should write a check" thing is just the TEA party / Fox News response to his statements. Aside from the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, that it would do nothing to improve any the structural failings of our current tax scheme.

It's just chest thumping.
 
Klaus
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:31 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
Right up to the part where he writes a check which he never seems to do.

You could hardly be any more wrong, though apparently not for lack of trying:

FORTUNE Magazine: Warren Buffett gives away his fortune - Jun. 25, 2006

Quote:
Buffett has pledged to gradually give 85% of his Berkshire stock to five foundations. A dominant five-sixths of the shares will go to the world's largest philanthropic organization, the $30 billion Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, whose principals are close friends of Buffett's (a connection that began in 1991, when a mutual friend introduced Buffett and Bill Gates).

The Gateses credit Buffett, says Bill, with having "inspired" their thinking about giving money back to society. Their foundation's activities, internationally famous, are focused on world health -- fighting such diseases as malaria, HIV/AIDS, and tuberculosis -- and on improving U.S. libraries and high schools.

Several of these causes are classic public obligations, which he's supporting directly.

Quote:
Because the value of Buffett's gifts are tied to a future, unknowable price of Berkshire, there is no way to put a total dollar value on them. But the number of shares earmarked to be given have a huge value today: $37 billion.

Well, it's not actually a paper cheque, if that was what you were referring to, but at these volumes and at the somewhat complex nature of this transfer of his wealth, I guess we should assume it just as good, shouldn't we?

So, how are your own charitable donations stacking up by comparison?

Maybe even just as a percentage of your own assets?

Any further complaints?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:43 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):

In the mean time, lets keep the governments hands out of American's pockets.

He was talking about just that - except for the several hundred Americans who have income in nine digits or more. You guys just knee jerk to everything without reading what the guy said.

Every president since Teddy R has supported progressive taxation, so what gives? I don't hear you griping about all of them en masse.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):

Right up to the part where he writes a check which he never seems to do.

He has paid more in taxes than you'll make in five lifetimes and is still willing to do more. I'd say that stands for quite a bit.
Larry Ellison, another billionaire and class-A jerk if you've ever seen an interview with him, despite high taxes has nevertheless been creating jobs in California for 30+ years. He continued to make investments in his business with the Oracle takeover of Sun Micro and isn't looking back.
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NIKV69
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:44 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
That is simply not possible. Taxes cannot be "donated".

Wrong..

http://www.fms.treas.gov/faq/moretopics_gifts.html

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
But Buffet is in fact a huge donor for various causes.

Sure donations are tax deductible.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 7):
You actually can gift money to the US Treasury as I understand it.

Yep you can.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 7):
It's just chest thumping.

In addition to a cheap campaign parlor trick from the Obama administration to try to get the independents back.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
Several of these causes are classic public obligations, which he's supporting directly.

In addition to getting a huge tax deduction for the donations which he pockets. Like I said start writing checks made out to the US treasury or shut up.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Klaus
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:54 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
That is simply not possible. Taxes cannot be "donated".

Wrong..

Ah, okay, so in the US that's possible.

Buffet has still chosen to give almost all of his wealth away for public causes, just through a different channel.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
In addition to getting a huge tax deduction for the donations which he pockets. Like I said start writing checks made out to the US treasury or shut up.

You cannot really understand what "tax deductions" really mean in context with the article and with him giving his wealth away anyway, or you would have understood that in this context your statement is utterly nonsensical.

It seems Buffet has understood that there's little point in being the richest guy in the cemetery. He may be somewhat ahead of you there.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:14 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
That is simply not possible. Taxes cannot be "donated".

As others have indicated its absolutely possible to donate money to the government.

Various people and groups do it - mostly on the smaller scale - for instance locally in my town people donated money to help buy equipment for the fire department, and to spruce up a park.

Nothing is stopping Messrs Buffet, Gates, or anyone else from writing nice checks to their government.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 9):
Every president since Teddy R has supported progressive taxation, so what gives? I don't hear you griping about all of them en masse.

Oh I'll argue against what you call "progressive" taxation, as really being regressive taxation.

Its absolutely ridiculous in my opinion (as a heavily taxed small business owner) that 10% of American must pay 68% of all taxes, and that over 47% of American households see a end of year federal tax liability of ZERO.

You want to get 'progressive', then make sure everyone pays into the system.
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fr8mech
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:22 am

sigh....

Every time one of these rich, altruistic folks decides it's time to tell the common folks that the common folk must buck up and help out in times of need, just like they do, by paying more taxes...I wretch.

These folks have made their millions and in some cases billions. Some of them are no longer making huge incomes and therefore do not have huge tax bills.

People seem to forget that we do NOT tax wealth in the US. We tax income. If there is no or little income, you will pay no or little tax...it really doesn't matter what you have in the bank. Oh yeah, you pay tax on interest and depending on the state, you'll pay on certain property (including your home), but, overall, as compared to your wealth, your tax bill will be minuscule.

So once again...  . You want to give away your money....more power to you, it's your money, but, give me a chance to make my small pile. Chances are that I won't be a rival to you for the cover of Forbes.
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Aaron747
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:31 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
and that over 47% of American households see a end of year federal tax liability of ZERO.

That certainly requires adjustment as well, but the fact is undertaxation in the billionaire class is alive and well. The Japanese system is certainly more simplistic in that the brackets are simply 10% for under ~$35K, 20%, 30% and 35%. There is also a 45% estate tax on individuals with assets over approximately $50 million, which forces those individuals and their families to do useful things with their money before passing on.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
(as a heavily taxed small business owner)

As has been repeatedly pointed out, this is wrong and counter-productive. Clearly a person like you is not in the same league of obligation as a person making two or three digits more.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Every time one of these rich, altruistic folks decides it's time to tell the common folks that the common folk must buck up and help out in times of need, just like they do, by paying more taxes...I wretch.

He didn't say that. Again, he was talking about people in the nine digits. You'll note the title of the editorial was not "Stop Coddling The Middle Class Folks".
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Klaus
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:32 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Every time one of these rich, altruistic folks decides it's time to tell the common folks that the common folk must buck up and help out in times of need, just like they do, by paying more taxes...I wretch.

Nonsense. You obviously have not read the article.

Buffet proposes exactly the opposite of what you're claiming: That he and his fellow multi-billionaires should get their taxation increased so that people with low and moderate incomes can see theirs decreased.

He proposes that he'd take on some of your tax burden. Which appears to be exactly what you seem to want, isn't it?
 
seb146
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:22 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
with all the Tea Party folks cry out that we need to protect the wealthiest (because they are "job creators who don't create jobs.) Warren tells it like he sees it.

Or, we could simply look over the past 30 years or so and see that when taxes are cut, jobs are lost but when taxes are raised, jobs are created. But, we need to protect the smallest group of people that hold the most wealth in this country. That is more important than the right-wing promise they told us in 2010 and that is they will create jobs. Where are the jobs?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:27 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 14):
As has been repeatedly pointed out, this is wrong and counter-productive. Clearly a person like you is not in the same league of obligation as a person making two or three digits more.

Well with all the bashing and name calling by Obama and Dems against those earning $250,000, it seems the small business owners who employ just over half of all private sector employees in America have become the enemy in this debate.

Quite discouraging imo.

Either the limit they are talking about needs to be raised significantly(into the millions), or the way earnings of sole proprietorships, DBAs, small corporations are calculated needs to be changed to only tax the end net income, not things like gross receipts. One can generate $1mil in revenue and be taxed on that, but end up with a large net loss at the end and not a penny in the bank to show for all the work.
Another peeve of mine is inheritance tax, where a tax might be due on a thing like a business, farm or property based on its valuation, which forces a fire sale to pay the tax but generates no where close to the valuation and there goes whatever you just inherited.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:28 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
a cheap campaign parlor trick from the Obama administration

How, exactly, is this the Obama administration's doing? Specifically.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Like I said start writing checks made out to the US treasury or shut up.

More parroting of the talking heads on a certain TV "news" channel. How would this serve to structurally, systematically, change things going forward?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
and that over 47% of American households see a end of year federal tax liability of ZERO

That's simply not true. Perhaps if you had included the word "income..."
 
Ken777
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:30 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 5):
Right up to the part where he writes a check which he never seems to do.

Impressive how you know what his personal contributions have been over the years.

Why not share some numbers with us.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Yep you can.

You can even make a contribution to help reduce the national debt. Guess where your money goes.

Straight to the general fund.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
Sure donations are tax deductible.

Tyhink about it. If Buffett has an 18% or so effective tax rate he only deducts 18% of any contribution.

So a contribution "costs" him 82%. On a $100,000,000 that odd arithmetic of yours costs him $82,000,000.

Not very good motivation iMHO.  Wow!
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
and that over 47% of American households see a end of year federal tax liability of ZERO.

One of the largest factors in that situation is the GOP's Socialist $1,000 per child HANDOUT. It helped get them elected ONCE in the last century and we are still paying for it . Probably more expensive than W's Ego War - and rather queer considering that the GOP is turning into the TP.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Every time one of these rich, altruistic folks decides it's time to tell the common folks that the common folk must buck up and help out in times of need, just like they do, by paying more taxes...I wretch.

Buffett wasn't taking the "common folks" to buck it up. He was talking about taxing the top tier of income.

So you can put the barf Rx away and relax.

Unless you are one of the "Billionaire Friendly" politicians he was also talking about.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
People seem to forget that we do NOT tax wealth in the US. We tax income.

For a lot of Americans their home has traditionally been the core of their middle-class "wealth", And in most states it gets TAXED.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
you'll pay on certain property (including your home), but, overall, as compared to your wealth, your tax bill will be minuscule.

My property taxes have never been "minuscule" for me.

And I've never voted against raising it in oder to pay for schools and roads, etc. Most of the time these bond issues pass and normal Americans in this city raise their down taxes for the improvements in the city.
 
Mir
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Oh I'll argue against what you call "progressive" taxation, as really being regressive taxation.

Which is a ludicrous argument.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Every time one of these rich, altruistic folks decides it's time to tell the common folks that the common folk must buck up and help out in times of need, just like they do, by paying more taxes...I wretch.

Your wretching should, in that case, be directed at those who make statements like this:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Its absolutely ridiculous in my opinion (as a heavily taxed small business owner) that 10% of American must pay 68% of all taxes, and that over 47% of American households see a end of year federal tax liability of ZERO.

You want to get 'progressive', then make sure everyone pays into the system.

I recommend reading the article again and seeing just who it is that Buffett thinks should be paying more. Hint: it's not the common folk.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
the way earnings of sole proprietorships, DBAs, small corporations are calculated needs to be changed to only tax the end net income, not things like gross receipts.

This is the way that $250,000 number has been calculated all along. If you run a business that grosses $300k, but pay out $200k for operating expenses, you're obviously not earning more than $250k, and thus your taxes don't go up.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:58 am

I find this whole thing quite interesting. Buffet, a man that I think we all agree has been highly successful in managing his own finances, feels that he and his peers should give more money to a government that has demonstrated time after time gross financial mismanagement. If the USGov were a company, Uncle Warren wouldn't dare invest in it or even provide it loans.

Until the US Government can demonstrate it can handle it's finances responsibly, they sure as hell don't deserve more money, regardless from whom its taken. If I ran up huge amounts of debt, then went to my employer and demanded he should pay me more, I'd be lucky if all I got was laughed out of the office.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:01 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Impressive how you know what his personal contributions have been over the years.

Well Buffet and Gates while they do not have to give anything to charity all they money they give relative to their wealth is pocket change. I myself relative to my wealth I would bet I give far more then either of them do to charity. That aside I am more for a flat and fair tax I think would bring in far more revenue and cut all these loopholes. As it stands now I as a middle class guy who makes around 100k and single I get killed in taxes. There are far too many companies getting tax breaks who continue to offshore jobs anyway GE being one of them. Being a middle of the road independent I think if we are going after entitlements which I pay into by the way I say everyone needs some skin in the game so yes old Warren can give till it hurts if he wishes.

[Edited 2011-08-15 19:02:56]
 
LAXintl
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 18):
That's simply not true. Perhaps if you had included the word "income..."
Tax Day is a dreaded deadline for millions, but for nearly half of U.S. households it's simply somebody else's problem.

About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly...households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
Which is a ludicrous argument.

Yes its ludicrous that almost 50% of America don't pay the IRS, while the top 10% contribute to 68% of federal taxes.

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
This is the way that $250,000 number has been calculated all along. If you run a business that grosses $300k, but pay out $200k for operating expenses, you're obviously not earning more than $250k, and thus your taxes don't go up.

Suggest you run a business - there are things like gross receipt taxes. You sell it for $1, you pay a portion of it for taxes regardless what your ending net balance is.

$250,000 (or even $1mil in a business) is hardly "rich" in my book to be thrown so willingly under the bus.
Seems the only reward one gets for working hard, and doing well is a larger tax bill..  Confused  Confused

[Edited 2011-08-15 19:18:56]
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Flighty
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:17 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Maybe we should listen to a guy who is simply cutting through the fluff.

On the other hand, he has now made / given away all his money and he is at the end of his happy life. So of course he is willing to pay more taxes "in the future." Now is a great time for him to have that feeling!

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 22):
There are far too many companies getting tax breaks who continue to offshore jobs anyway GE being one of them.

Sorry I don't buy it. If you are comfortable of course you should pay some taxes. Companies provide jobs. I see no reason why Berkshire Hathaway should pay profit taxes. The notion itself is perverse. They provide jobs (lots and lots of jobs). Economic activity is exactly what we want to foster, not prevent. We should hope they make as much damn money as possible.

THEN, those profits should be taxed on the personal income level of Warren Buffet and the like. There is no need to tax it at Berkshire. That only lowers their project size and the teams hired to do that project.

[Edited 2011-08-15 19:21:15]
 
Flighty
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:19 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
$250,000 (or even $1mil in a business) is hardly "rich" in my book to be thrown to willingly under the bus.

Dudes netting a million a year are not rich in your book? Really?      
 
stratosphere
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:21 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 24):
Sorry I don't buy it. If you are comfortable of course you should pay some taxes. Companies provide jobs. I see no reason why Berkshire Hathaway should pay profit taxes. They provide jobs (lots and lots of jobs). We should hope they make as much damn money as possible.

I agree but what I am saying is there are a lot of companies enjoying major tax breaks all the while NOT providing jobs in the USA or at least offshoring a lot of their job and one of the biggest offenders is Obummers jobs czar Jeff Immelt CEO of GE.
 
Flighty
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:29 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 26):
I agree but what I am saying is there are a lot of companies enjoying major tax breaks all the while NOT providing jobs in the USA or at least offshoring a lot of their job and one of the biggest offenders is Obummers jobs czar Jeff Immelt CEO of GE.

I agree so let's stop taxing them and making them do that BS. They can employ all of Harvard Law School -- you'll never stop them. So at least let's have the small guys compete for that work. The small guy can't hire the $20m worth of lawyers. Let's extend those "tax breaks" to every company forever... big, small, it's all good -- and let's instead focus on personal income and wealth taxes.. imo


About GE... what do you want to do, get rid of them... they have done a lot of good things for this country. I agree, yes they do offshore... and they also treat a lot of Americans very very well. They make good money and bring most of it back to this country.
 
BMI727
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:33 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Maybe we should listen to a guy who is simply cutting through the fluff.

The Buffett can tax himself and/or donate as much money as he needs to sleep at night. There is no need for him to be meddling in other people's finances.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 3):
He's suggesting that the fact that he paid a far lower percentage in taxes than his office staff is silly.

I'd suggest that the fact that half of the country pays no taxes is silly. It's awfully easy to vote to raise everyone else's taxes.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11):
Buffet has still chosen to give almost all of his wealth away for public causes, just through a different channel.

And lots of other people do the same.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 14):
There is also a 45% estate tax on individuals with assets over approximately $50 million, which forces those individuals and their families to do useful things with their money before passing on.

Estate taxes aren't taxes as much as theft. The notion that the government should take a chunk of money that has already been taxed is ludicrous.
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:34 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 25):
Dudes netting a million a year are not rich in your book? Really?

Not as a business no. A mil does not buy you much if you have need for equipment, buildings, inventory etc, right over the horizon.

And on a personal level, I know a plenty "millionaires" that live humbly in apartments as that is about all they can afford with the need to plan ahead for the future. Don't let a few 000's make you think their $1 buys anymore than your $1.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 26):
there are a lot of companies enjoying major tax breaks all the while NOT providing jobs in the USA or at least offshoring a lot of their job and one of the biggest offenders is Obummers jobs czar Jeff Immelt CEO of GE.

And why is this? Our corporate tax structure is punitive. It harmful to repatriate money, or invest back into the US.

Thankfully even the Obama administration sees this now, and it talking about lowering corporate tax bracket (which happens to be the highest in the OECD) from 35 to 25%.
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:48 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
Tax Day is a dreaded deadline for millions, but for nearly half of U.S. households it's simply somebody else's problem.

Read the article, not just the talking points...

Here's a snippet:

"The vast majority of people who escape federal income taxes still pay other taxes, including federal payroll taxes that fund Social Security and Medicare, and excise taxes on gasoline, aviation, alcohol and cigarettes. "

See, it says income tax. And in the excerpt in your post it says income tax yet when you use your own wording you just say "federal tax." I believe income tax only accounts for about half of federal taxes. So... you're just... wrong. Or willfully misleading.
 
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:05 am

I admire the man, he at least has the balls to say it. Tax me. Where are all the other job creators? They are not creating, here, while sucking up the taxbreaks here.

[Edited 2011-08-15 20:07:15]
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:08 am

Buffett is a liar taking advantage of the complexity of the tax code to mislead people to advance his political agenda. I don't believe for a second he isn't fully aware of what he is saying and why it is misleading. Shame on you.

ps: oh, and that makes Obama another dishonest individual for harping him on and trying to capitalize on a lie.

[Edited 2011-08-15 20:10:33]
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:10 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
Buffett is a liar taking advantage of the complexity of the tax code to mislead people to advance his political agenda. I don't believe for a second he isn't fully aware of what he is saying and why it is misleading. Shame on you.

A slight difference of opinion, what has he to gain? A taxbreak?  
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:23 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 30):
you're just... wrong. Or willfully misleading.

     

As I stated almost 50% of households owe the IRS nothing in Federal Taxes at the end of the year. What is incorrect with that statement?

Its rather sick imo, while the top-10% is made to pay 68%!
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:25 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
And why is this? Our corporate tax structure is punitive. It harmful to repatriate money, or invest back into the US.

Agreed so offer them to companies who keep all their jobs here offer incentives. My point is that these companies get their tax break and off shore anyway. Give them the incentive to keep it here or punish them of they don't. They cant have it both ways.
 
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Warren Buffett does it again - with all the Tea Party folks cry out that we need to protect the wealthiest (because they are "job creators who don't create jobs.) Warren tells it like he sees it.


     

The Tea Party fanatics always seem to ignore the fact that during the past few years the Bush Cuts have been in effect and what has ig gotten us? Mediocre job creation at best, with good decent paying middle class jobs being wiped out, by evil, greedy corporations hording money for their executives and management, being replaced by crappy, mind numbing, suicide inducing, no future minimum wage jobs...and even those haven't been created in large numbers.

In my opinion the biggest farce ever sold to the American public, and one the Tea Party seems to embrace is Trickle Down Economics, the ludicrous idiotic, and throughly DISPROVEN naive notion that helping the rich will in any way benefit anyone else other than the rich, especially considering the fact that the vast majority of corporations and wealthy people simply use tax cuts to HOARD even more money. Warren Buffet is spot on. If you make billions you can afford to pay 40-60 percent or more of your income...do you REALLY need 100 million a year to live on..how grotesquely vain is a person who claims to need all of their ridiculous income (CEO's etc) to live on comfortably? Its even more sickening that in the distorted and twisted world view of the Tea Party; "fair" means taxing people who can barely live on the income they have, at the same level OR MORE than Billionaires.

Anyways that's just my   

Warren Buffet is probably one of the only wealthy Capitalists out there with any kind of ethics left.
 
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:33 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 35):
Agreed so offer them to companies who keep all their jobs here offer incentives. My point is that these companies get their tax break and off shore anyway. Give them the incentive to keep it here or punish them of they don't. They cant have it both ways.

Absolutely, a very good idea. They are having it both ways, while we lose jobs, and they get rewarded for it. They suck the money out of the economy, with imported goods, while enjoying tax breaks, that we do not get. A ridiculous system, created for the wealthy, by the rats in Washington, both sides.
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting WN738 (Reply 36):
how grotesquely vain is a person who claims to need all of their ridiculous income (CEO's etc) to live on comfortably?

Who claims this? Give me names.

The funniest part is that you contradict yourself in your own argument, and you don't even realize.
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:52 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
The funniest part is that you contradict yourself in your own argument, and you don't even realize.


Actually i don't. You may THINK I am contradicting myself, but I'm certain i am not. But do please elaborate, if you so desire.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):
Who claims this? Give me names.


Anyone who makes Millions and is opposed to corporate tax increases or increases on taxes for the rich. essentially what they are saying is "i need my miilions or i will starve"
 
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):

Who claims this? Give me names.

Names aren't necessary. No one needs $100 million to live comfortably, and if you can't do so with that amount of money, you probably have some kind of diagnosable personality disorder. Literally. The amount of narcissism (before someone says anything, look it up- narcissism isn't egotism) and complete disregard for others one would need to be pulling in even $10 million and not be satisfied with a lifestyle that kind of money can bring is staggering.

I live very comfortably on $1600 a month in Southern California while working full-time and attending school full-time and commuting about 500 miles a week. With that money, not only do I pay my bills with no problems, I also have several hundred dollars each month to use at my discretion or save. I'm 23 and have fucked up several times since I turned 18, including being broke and getting myself kicked out of my house. Yet I have figured out a way to live quite well on almost nothing.

If the people who make huge incomes are so smart and benevolent and sacred, I don't want to hear some tripe about the "hardship" they go through being taxed 39% on their 8 or 9-figure incomes, a percentage that pales to what generations of wealthy Americans have paid in the past.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 38):

The funniest part is that you contradict yourself in your own argument, and you don't even realize.

Where? I don't see anything contradictory in what he said. Either point out the specific passage where he contradicts himself or stop making baseless claims.
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:56 am

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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting WN738 (Reply 39):
Anyone who makes Millions and is opposed to corporate tax increases or increases on taxes for the rich. essentially what they are saying is "i need my miilions or i will starve"

I asked for names. I bet you can't give me a SINGLE one.

Quoting san747 (Reply 40):
No one needs $100 million to live comfortably, and if you can't do so with that amount of money, you probably have some kind of diagnosable personality disorder. Literally. The amount of narcissism (before someone says anything, look it up- narcissism isn't egotism) and complete disregard for others one would need to be pulling in even $10 million and not be satisfied with a lifestyle that kind of money can bring is staggering.

I live very comfortably on $1600 a month in Southern California while working full-time and attending school full-time and commuting about 500 miles a week. With that money, not only do I pay my bills with no problems, I also have several hundred dollars each month to use at my discretion or save. I'm 23 and have fucked up several times since I turned 18, including being broke and getting myself kicked out of my house. Yet I have figured out a way to live quite well on almost nothing.

If the people who make huge incomes are so smart and benevolent and sacred, I don't want to hear some tripe about the "hardship" they go through being taxed 39% on their 8 or 9-figure incomes, a percentage that pales to what generations of wealthy Americans have paid in the past.

You are completely missing the point of why I and others are against taxing the wealthy disproportionally.

Quoting WN738 (Reply 39):
Actually i don't. You may THINK I am contradicting myself, but I'm certain i am not. But do please elaborate, if you so desire.
Quoting san747 (Reply 40):
Where? I don't see anything contradictory in what he said. Either point out the specific passage where he contradicts himself or stop making baseless claims.

His last sentence. He rips the wealthy and then gives Buffett a pass despite the fact he chose to avoid taxes in every way he could.

Other than basic ignorance of economics, like the comment on hoarding, and the fact Buffett does the samething all other billionaires do - the money is not "hoarded" it is always invested. Small businesses depend on these people to finance start ups, expansions, new products, etc.
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:18 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):

You are completely missing the point of why I and others are against taxing the wealthy disproportionally.

No I'm not, I'm explaining why it doesn't make any practical sense.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):

I asked for names. I bet you can't give me a SINGLE one.

Jamie McCourt. It would make you sick keeping track of the McCourt divorce debacle.
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:28 am

Quoting san747 (Reply 43):
No I'm not, I'm explaining why it doesn't make any practical sense.

That wealth was *created* by those people. Profit is the incentive. You take away the incentive, you kill wealth. Then you have nothing to tax.

Quoting san747 (Reply 43):
Jamie McCourt. It would make you sick keeping track of the McCourt divorce debacle.

Quick google search has yielded no quotes related to what was said. I will keep searching, but even if turns out to be true, I can assure she would be the crazy exception (and one in a divorce situation, where people say all kinds of crazy things they'd never say otherwise).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:33 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 47):

That wealth was *created* by those people. Profit is the incentive. You take away the incentive, you kill wealth. Then you have nothing to tax.

Buffett himself said that the possibility of profits being taxed has never stopped him or any other successful investor from making a sound investment. That's right from the horse's (ultra-rich person's) mouth in this case. Why do you automatically naysay what this man (who is obviously more than qualified to speak on this subject) has to say just because his views don't align with yours?

And I apologize for the duplicate posts, I suggested deletion of those duplicates!
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BMI727
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:35 am

Quoting WN738 (Reply 36):
wealthy people simply use tax cuts to HOARD even more money.

You say that like it's a bad thing. It is there money, and we are in no place to pass judgment on the financial philosophies and business of others. And I assume that by "hoard" you mean put money in banks and investment funds where if flows through the economy in the forms of credit and investment, you know, the lifeblood that makes the economy work. Maybe if everyone else had "hoarded" a bit more money here and there we wouldn't have so many Americans buried in debt and relying on the government to fund their retirements.

Quoting WN738 (Reply 36):
If you make billions you can afford to pay 40-60 percent or more of your income

So from each according to his ability...

Quoting WN738 (Reply 36):
do you REALLY need 100 million a year to live on

...and to each according to his need. You're advocating a straight up redistribution of wealth and plundering of the wealthy.

Quoting WN738 (Reply 36):
Warren Buffet is probably one of the only wealthy Capitalists out there with any kind of ethics left.

If you're views become policy, there won't be many capitalists of any type left.

Quoting WN738 (Reply 39):
essentially what they are saying is "i need my miilions or i will starve"

They are actually saying "I earned my millions, and I want to keep it" which is hardly unreasonable.

Quoting san747 (Reply 40):
I live very comfortably on $1600 a month in Southern California while working full-time and attending school full-time and commuting about 500 miles a week.

Comfortable by your definition. And what are you proposing? Put all wages in a pool and issue everyone $1600 per month? Can someone point me to where the bread line starts?
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WN738
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:37 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
I asked for names. I bet you can't give me a SINGLE one.

See below.

Quoting san747 (Reply 40):
Names aren't necessary.

You do a good job of trying bringing up irrelevant questions though
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
He rips the wealthy and then gives Buffett a pass despite the fact he chose to avoid taxes in every way he could.

Oh i don't love Buffet; but i do love the fact that he at least admits that the rich are getting of ridiculously easy compared to other Americans. Something the Tea Partiers seem to deny, while making the rich look like victims.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
Other than basic ignorance of economics, like the comment on hoarding, and the fact Buffett does the same thing all other billionaires do - the money is not "hoarded" it is always invested.

Really? How is that not hoarding? they make money on it, whils providing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, INCLUDING jobs in return. If they have all their money in the market, they aren't creating Jobs. Don't confuse the vast majority of wealthy people with Venture Capitalists. The "investing" you talk about almost never results in job creation,simply look at the past 5 years, Bush cuts and all...and what have the companies they invest in done? Given their CEO's and top executive pay raises, while cutting jobs...yeah that's VERY helpful to society as a whole...I'm falling over with gratitude and kow-towing to the Billionaires, for such AMAZUNG benefits...the benefit of layoffs...

That money they invest has hardly been used to create jobs..they may not always directly and literally "hoard" the money, but the companies they invest in sure have been. And don't you tell me Corporations are taxed too much, just look at GE's bull crap amount of tax it pays.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
Small businesses depend on these people to finance start ups, expansions, new products, etc.

Really? Because the mom and pop store down the street, or the small boutique at the mall, or the convenience store down the road, all got money from Venture Capitalists right? because rich CEO's and multi-billion dollar conglomerates are just running around investing and giving loans to all the struggling small businesses right? Ever hear of Banks? They are the ones who finance MOST start ups, and one can hardly say that these banks directly create jobs

Most corporations today and wealthy people are re-investing in themselves or in what they have, why? To take advantage of the tax cuts. It costs money to "create" jobs...why do that when you can hoard you tax savings?

So why should the rich get any help or any sympathy?
 
san747
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:44 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):

Comfortable by your definition. And what are you proposing? Put all wages in a pool and issue everyone $1600 per month? Can someone point me to where the bread line starts?

No... nice try though. I used my situation as an example of how even with a very low income, I do just fine. Obviously, I wouldn't recommend my current situation to all or even most. My situation works for me. My point is that if you are complaining that your quality of life will suffer because 39% of your $10 million annual income is being taxed, you need to re-evaluate your life and probably see a psychiatrist too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
You're advocating a straight up redistribution of wealth and plundering of the wealthy.

Who's advocating that? I don't want to put words in his mouth, but my argument (and from what I can tell from his) is that an increase in tax rate for the top earners (the 8 or 9 figure earners) is not harmful to them, and if it is, well those people are smart and resourceful enough (according to you and your fellow conservatives) to solve any "problems" that may occur from any difference.
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san747
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RE: Buffett To Congress: Don't 'coddle' Me

Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:48 am

Quoting WN738 (Reply 50):

You do a good job of trying bringing up irrelevant questions though

You might have been trying to quote PPVRA there... I'm trying to agree with you!
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