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Aaron747
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Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:03 pm

Children and families in southern Somalia are in absolutely dire straits due to the burgeoning combination of severe drought and food shortages wrought by the instability in the Islamist al-Shabab "government". The UN has officially declared famine in the region as of yesterday, which is defined as emergency conditions of food supply affecting health of children and adults in potentially lethal ways. As if these al-Shabab people weren't bad enough with the piracy and radical Islamism, despite the conditions they continue to recruit kids as young as 8 to serve in their ad-hoc child militias. I rarely post on this kind of topic, but this situation is so atrocious it demands immediate attention. In a recent visit from the UK's state secretary for international development, it was reported that up to 400,000 children could be at risk of starvation induced death in the next several months. The west already screwed the pooch with the disaster in Rwanda, are we ready to let our governments repeat history this time in Somalia?

The UK Secretary of State for International Development, Andrew Mitchell, said the response by many European and developed countries to the crisis in the Horn of Africa had been "derisory and dangerously inadequate".

"The fact that a famine has been declared shows just how grave the situation has become. It is time for the world to help," he said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14211905

Times are tough to be sure, but a lot of us who are posting on here are most likely employed, have no trouble paying the bills, and our kids are fed. It doesn't take much in the way of donations to get rice and sweet potatoes to the kids in this region. I wasn't involved with these issues much before having children, but since becoming a parent I can't imagine the agony of being unable to provide the very basics for the children you love. Whatever mistakes people have made in whatever conditions they inhabit, nobody deserves to watch their young die in their arms!

Bono's humanitarian group, One.org, has posted a detailed study of the countries who are leading and lagging in strict food aid monies to the Horn of Africa. The US, UK, and Canada are leading the pack, with several prominent European nations and the Gulf States clearly lagging behind: I just made another donation - it's time to act!

http://www.one.org/international/blo...-efforts-which-are-lagging-behind/
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slider
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:52 pm

I'll give no donation to any nation that is run by militant tribal Islamists. I feel genuine compassion for the people suffering, but my charitable contributions can make more of a difference elsewhere. Somalia is burning itself to the ground and it's part and parcel of a vile pathology that creates nothing, destroys everything.




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sw733
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:09 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
but this situation is so atrocious it demands immediate attention

Agreed...but how? We can send food, but it will be intercepted. We can send the military, but 1993 kicked our asses.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
are we ready to let our governments repeat history this time in Somalia?

You can compare Rwanda to Somalia in that we must act, but you must also compare Somalia to Somalia in why many places may be hesitant to. 23 soldiers from 3 countries were killed, in addition to wounded and captured, and that's something I bet every leader thinks of when they think of helping Somalia.
 
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:47 pm

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org...8&cat=press-release&ref=news-index

Donate to organizations such as Doctors Without Borders (politically independent and neutral) or other non-profits doing important work in locations in border areas in Kenya such as the Dadaab Refugee Camp (now by far the world's largest camp population wise) if you have trepidations about sending money into Somalia. These organizations are working tirelessly to treat severely malnourished youth coming in from Somalia as well as providing medical care for refugees making the dangerous and arduous trek in from Somalia.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:05 pm

There has to be Somalian money in Swiss banks from local wealthies, government leaders, local corruption or other.

If this is the case, why not seize that money, convert it into food and feed these poor people?

Just a thought.

 
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BMI727
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:22 pm

There are plenty of poor people who are less likely to shoot at soldiers and aid workers, so maybe we should focus on them.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
If this is the case, why not seize that money, convert it into food and feed these poor people?

Because it's their money?
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:43 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Because it's their money?

Silly BMI - don't you know by now that if anyone is rich it's because he exploited poor people?
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Aaron747
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:57 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
Because it's their money?

I don't care one bit about seizing funds from warlords and/or Islamist pirates. Not sure why you do.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 5):
There are plenty of poor people who are less likely to shoot at soldiers and aid workers

This displays a clear lack of understanding of what's happening on the ground there. There are massive waves of refugees who have sought to escape and surely not all of the 400K children in the most immediate danger are armed members of militias.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 3):
Donate to organizations such as Doctors Without Borders (politically independent and neutral) or other non-profits doing important work in locations in border areas in Kenya such as the Dadaab Refugee Camp (now by far the world's largest camp population wise) if you have trepidations about sending money into Somalia.

That's exactly what I did - I donated to the Japanese medical aid organization, JICA.
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BMI727
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:16 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
I don't care one bit about seizing funds from warlords and/or Islamist pirates

That's a job for intelligence and law enforcement agencies and has little to do with any humanitarian situation. Simply taking money from the overseas accounts of wealthy Somalians isn't right.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
There are massive waves of refugees who have sought to escape and surely not all of the 400K children in the most immediate danger are armed members of militias.

Oh well. We are talking about spending money we don't really have to help people who don't really like us. We've done enough nation building for a while.
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Mir
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:31 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
The west already screwed the pooch with the disaster in Rwanda, are we ready to let our governments repeat history this time in Somalia?

Sadly, I think we're very ready.

Quoting slider (Reply 1):
I'll give no donation to any nation that is run by militant tribal Islamists.

I wouldn't give to militant tribal Islamists either, but those aren't who are suffering in Somalia.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6):
Silly BMI - don't you know by now that if anyone is rich it's because he exploited poor people?

Actually, very few people who are rich got that way by letting people literally starve. I've got no problem with freezing or seizing the foreign assets of people (as Aaron said, pirates and warlords) who show that level of disregard for human life. We're not talking about Verizon executives asking for wage and benefit concessions here - this is on a whole other scale.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
surely not all of the 400K children in the most immediate danger are armed members of militias.

And that's assuming that all the children who are members of militias are voluntary members. Which I can pretty much guarantee isn't the case.

-Mir
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BN747
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:14 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
The west already screwed the pooch with the disaster in Rwanda, are we ready to let our governments repeat history this time in Somalia?

Sadly, I think we're very ready.

I wholeheartedly agree there...

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Quoting slider (Reply 1):
I'll give no donation to any nation that is run by militant tribal Islamists.

I wouldn't give to militant tribal Islamists either, but those aren't who are suffering in Somalia.

Yep, and let me tell you..Somalia is like say.... Juarez, Mexico with no 'government at all' anywhere to be seen multiplied by a steroid factor of 10. Nothing moves in the country with the Warlords nod.

In a situation, like that there are only two choices.

1) Pick a favorite Warlord, make him the nations leader followed by wiping out all shreds of competing warlords.
(and 10-20 years later..support his overthrow). This done with OAU blessing of course - which won't happen.

2) Pay off all the Warlords, gain access 'to feed the hungry' which = greater Warlord subjects in numbers and greater pool from which they can recruit in the future. The endless death spiral approach.


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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:31 am

That is the problem I find it hard to find sympathy for Somalia when we have constant hijackings of commercial ships by Somalis as well as Blackhawk down. Now I realize the starving children are not responsible but fact is there is not a real way to help the truly needy without it finding its way to the thugs. Like others have said there are plenty of charities that need our money right here in the US as shameful as that is it is the truth. My money goes to animal charities and St Jude right here in this country who really need it too. The US already gives way too much of our taxpayer money in humanitarian aid sadly most of which most likely goes to dictators and not to those who need it.
 
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:02 am

Have any members from the religion of peace made any charitable donations to help these starving people in the Islamic state of Somalia?
The 3rd pillar in Islam is charitable giving. Also known as 'zakat' and according to the qur'an, charitable giving is compulsory.
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NIKV69
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:24 am

Quoting slider (Reply 1):
I'll give no donation to any nation that is run by militant tribal Islamists. I feel genuine compassion for the people suffering, but my charitable contributions can make more of a difference elsewhere. Somalia is burning itself to the ground and it's part and parcel of a vile pathology that creates nothing, destroys everything.

Bravo, as politically incorrect as this it rings very true.

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
The west already screwed the pooch with the disaster in Rwanda,

Why does every thread have to contain a dig at the US? I find it amazing how we can't be the worlds policeman and then can be depending on the incident. If you want to send money go ahead and send money. It's noble but I don't think we need to be made to feel guilty if we don't because of what happened in another country.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
If this is the case, why not seize that money, convert it into food and feed these poor people?

Well because without killing the people in power who are corrupt and won't let the aid reach the people it's a waste.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 7):
I don't care one bit about seizing funds from warlords and/or Islamist pirates. Not sure why you do.

It's the only way for them to survive because I am sure not sending a dime and any money sent is a waste. See Haiti. You want change the extemists have to go and since this doesn't seem to ever happen it's a dog chasing it's tail.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Oh well. We are talking about spending money we don't really have to help people who don't really like us. We've done enough nation building for a while

Yep time to not thump our chests for awhile. Let the people take over their own country and the ill gotten gains the people hijacking ships have.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
1) Pick a favorite Warlord, make him the nations leader followed by wiping out all shreds of competing warlords.
(and 10-20 years later..support his overthrow). This done with OAU blessing of course - which won't happen.

Just what we need another Khadaffi. Are you kidding?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
2) Pay off all the Warlords, gain access 'to feed the hungry' which = greater Warlord subjects in numbers and greater pool from which they can recruit in the future. The endless death spiral approach.

Pay them with what? Who?

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 11):
That is the problem I find it hard to find sympathy for Somalia when we have constant hijackings of commercial ships by Somalis as well as Blackhawk down. Now I realize the starving children are not responsible but fact is there is not a real way to help the truly needy without it finding its way to the thugs. Like others have said there are plenty of charities that need our money right here in the US as shameful as that is it is the truth. My money goes to animal charities and St Jude right here in this country who really need it too. The US already gives way too much of our taxpayer money in humanitarian aid sadly most of which most likely goes to dictators and not to those who need it.

  
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Speedbird741
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:45 pm

The situation is also becoming increasingly complicated in Dadaab, Kenya, where one of the largest refugee camps for fleeing Somalis is. The main camp there has a population that is four times larger than its capacity. Last year the average monthly influx of Somalis into the camp was of 5000, whereas in June 2011 alone it was of 30,000. At the moment, the UN is still awaiting fund consolidation to build a new complex in Dadaab that will only be able to hold 40,000 people. As of now, there are already 70,000 people, the vast majority being Somalis, living outside the existing Dadaab complex. This is becoming very serious indeed.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 11):
I find it hard to find sympathy for Somalia when we have constant hijackings of commercial ships by Somalis as well as Blackhawk down.

You cannot possibly be serious.

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NIKV69
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 15):
You cannot possibly be serious.

Why not, though not a popular stance even the people in Somalia that aren't pirates hate us. Funny how when situations become dire we then become everyone's daddy.
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:09 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
even the people in Somalia that aren't pirates hate us.

I have absolutely no doubt that you have actually employed a reputable research company to conduct a survey that proves your point of view. I welcome your posting a link to the results that prove that starving children hate people that in all probability they have never heard of.

It is likely that many people could not care less about where people are from and care more about what, if anything, they are doing to make life worse or better. I have no evidence whatsoever, but I suspect that a hungry child will not discriminate when food is offered. You have to be "grown up" and "mature" to do that.
 
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:13 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
the people in Somalia that aren't pirates hate us

Placing it in your terms, most of the people in Somalia who aren't pirates don't know who or what you are. For the worst of reasons, hatred isn't a sentiment the average Somali is occupied with right now.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Funny how when situations become dire we then become everyone's daddy.

How, pray tell, do you figure that one out?

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something
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:27 pm

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 18):
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Funny how when situations become dire we then become everyone's daddy.

How, pray tell, do you figure that one out?

Because they inexplicably don't want to give their ressources away to other nations but rather use them to their own benefit, but now - the audacity - that they are hungry the US is suddenly a welcome guest.

Honestly, when you see a person die in front of you - or as in this case over 12 million people - and you turn them the cold shoulder because they can't pay for it, you are lacking very basic intrinsic human sentiments.
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NIKV69
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:42 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 17):
I have absolutely no doubt that you have actually employed a reputable research company to conduct a survey that proves your point of view. I welcome your posting a link to the results that prove that starving children hate people that in all probability they have never heard of.
http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/20...-marine-dragged-through-mogadishu/

Quoting Quokka (Reply 17):
It is likely that many people could not care less about where people are from and care more about what, if anything, they are doing to make life worse or better. I have no evidence whatsoever, but I suspect that a hungry child will not discriminate when food is offered. You have to be "grown up" and "mature" to do that.

Yep, it's so nice of their fellow countryman who have milions in swag to ignore them and even prevent any aid from reaching them. Real mature huh?

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 18):
Placing it in your terms, most of the people in Somalia who aren't pirates don't know who or what you are. For the worst of reasons, hatred isn't a sentiment the average Somali is occupied with right now.

Like I said when times are dire we have to be daddy. Well like I said if you would like to donate go right ahead. I am sick of watching money just go to waste like in Haiti. We gave them Billions and where are they?
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something
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:55 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Quoting Quokka (Reply 17):
I have absolutely no doubt that you have actually employed a reputable research company to conduct a survey that proves your point of view. I welcome your posting a link to the results that prove that starving children hate people that in all probability they have never heard of.
http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/20...ishu/

That's like declaring war on America over Abu Ghraib.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Yep, it's so nice of their fellow countryman who have milions in swag to ignore them and even prevent any aid from reaching them. Real mature huh?

Which is why bank accounts should be seized and the money should be used to help the people of Somalia. A proposition rejected by certain members of this board because it's ''their'' money.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 18):
Placing it in your terms, most of the people in Somalia who aren't pirates don't know who or what you are. For the worst of reasons, hatred isn't a sentiment the average Somali is occupied with right now.

Like I said when times are dire we have to be daddy. Well like I said if you would like to donate go right ahead. I am sick of watching money just go to waste like in Haiti. We gave them Billions and where are they?

Or where would they be, without the billions. Much of the money is lost in corruption and bad organization. But it's up to you whose fund you want to support, whom you personally deem capable of taking your money and using and not wasting it. Not every organization will squander the money.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
Quokka
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:03 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Yep, it's so nice of their fellow countryman who have millions in swag to ignore them and even prevent any aid from reaching them. Real mature huh?

Sadly, that occurs in most countries. The well-to-do will always shrug their shoulders and say that it nothing to do with me. In the meantime real people suffer because others couldn't care less. Children really do not care who gives them food until they learn from adults that there is a catch. Then they become suspicious. Experience teaches them who is and who is not to be trusted. All too often the answer is no-one.

That is what makes them "mature". The idea that you can trust no-one because no-one gives a shit and they are only in it for what they can get out of it. So, look after number one and forget about the rest. That's maturity the way a lot of people see it and actually believe it is the best way.
 
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting something (Reply 21):
Which is why bank accounts should be seized and the money should be used to help the people of Somalia. A proposition rejected by certain members of this board because it's ''their'' money.

Not me, let the people of Somalia do it. It's ill gotten gains and they have stood in the way of aid reaching the people. Go for it.
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Mir
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:56 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Quoting Quokka (Reply 17):
I have absolutely no doubt that you have actually employed a reputable research company to conduct a survey that proves your point of view. I welcome your posting a link to the results that prove that starving children hate people that in all probability they have never heard of.
http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/20...-marine-dragged-through-mogadishu/

That was 20 years ago. Things change.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
let the people of Somalia do it. It's ill gotten gains and they have stood in the way of aid reaching the people. Go for it.

If there's any of that money in US banks, the Somalis can't do anything about it. We can. And should.

-Mir
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NIKV69
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
That was 20 years ago. Things change.

Oh yea I can just tell.   

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
If there's any of that money in US banks, the Somalis can't do anything about it. We can. And should.

I seriously doubt any of that money is in US banks.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
luckyone
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:00 pm

Quoting something (Reply 21):
Or where would they be, without the billions.

Probably exactly where they are anyway. There's a reason their neighbors the DR have required visas for Haitian passport-holders for many years. The people and country of Haiti didn't reach their predicament overnight. Prior to the quake millions were living in crumbling buildings that could've fallen down if enough people sneezed hard enough in the right direction. They lived in abject poverty already with a barely-functioning government. Haiti has been ranked one of the most corrupt countries in the world for almost a decade, so only the ignorant should be surprised when their billions of pity dollars are squandered.

Quoting something (Reply 19):
Because they inexplicably don't want to give their ressources away to other nations but rather use them to their own benefit, but now - the audacity - that they are hungry the US is suddenly a welcome guest.

I think what he means is for the past decade (or even longer) the United States is criticized regardless of the position it takes. An unfortunate consequence of a power vacuum left by the dissolution of the USSR. This is just one instance, but it illustrates my point beautifully: pop singer Shakira goes on public record in 2002 and 2003 against the impending and then implemented war against Iraq. In 2006 she publicly requests the United States save the Lebanese people from oppressive Israeli aggression because they have the power and influence in the world...(it should come as little surprise that Shakira is of partial Lebanese descent). A drop in the water but it illustrates the attitude. The United States is often the first entity criticized for getting involved in matters that are "none of its business" yet we are the FIRST place the same people come crying to when they need help. It's a double standard that is starting to get old to many of us. I think it's time we step back and let people appreciate what we're capable of when it's not thrown back in our face. Does that mean we have to be the king of the world and have the right to dictate it ONLY and ALWAYS done on our terms? Of course not, but if so many are so critical and unappreciative, then fine. Do it yourself.

Quoting sw733 (Reply 2):
Agreed...but how? We can send food, but it will be intercepted. We can send the military, but 1993 kicked our asses.

Agreed. I say we should just leave these people the hell alone if they're hell-bent on fighting each other. Many places in Africa are still feeling the vestiges of European Colonialism and artificial boundaries. Recent history has demonstrated that they're going to fight each other if they really desire to do so. Let them or let the people who, in this case, CAUSED the problem solve it--the former Colonial Powers who caused problems such as this by drawing artificial boundaries and then left with little notice, barely leaving a light bulb in the process. I'm tired of sending my tax dollars and my friends/children/loved ones to fight for people who are either bound and determined to kill each or won't fight for themselves. If the Somali people don't want to be a part of the global community and are fine with playing the tribal warlord game, let them have it. It's their country. If we come in before the people have really had enough of their own malfunctioning government they're not going to appreciate it anyway.

[Edited 2011-08-20 14:08:11]

[Edited 2011-08-20 14:21:09]

[Edited 2011-08-20 14:24:29]
 
Speedbird741
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:49 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/20...-marine-dragged-through-mogadishu/

I don't suppose you read the article in full to understand who was dragging the soldier through the street. This has nothing to do with the famine crises that is being discussed. The 1993 horror was mostly confined to Mogadishu. Further, you should warn of how gruesome those pictures are.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
Like I said when times are dire we have to be daddy.

No, you (yourself) don't have to. Your country and its justly elected government and justly funded organizations choose to. And, in my opinion, should. It really goes beyond the usual political stances. Further, your description of 'being the daddy' is (too) excessive to describe what actually takes place.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 23):
Not me, let the people of Somalia do it.

With all due respect NIKV69, please study the situation a little more before making such loose statements.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
I seriously doubt any of that money is in US banks.

Why do you doubt it, if I may?

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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:23 am

I'll be totally honest here. Somalia is one of those countries that is completely screwed. They don't have much in the area of resources, and to top it off they have a big Islamist movement determined to keep the country in the 7th century (with AK-47s and RPG-7s). The similarity with Afghanistan is striking. As we learned with Afghanistan, even if you spent hundreds of billions of dollars, there is little chance of permanently improving the country, unless you manage to hunt down and kill every single Islamist in the country. Frankly I have no stomach for another house-to-house war in a Muslim country. We spend a fortune, and they all hate us anyway.

I say ignore them.
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NIKV69
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:59 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 27):
I don't suppose you read the article in full to understand who was dragging the soldier through the street. This has nothing to do with the famine crises that is being discussed.

Of course it doesn't but they still hate us until of course they need us.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 27):
Your country and its justly elected government and justly funded organizations choose to. And, in my opinion, should. It really goes beyond the usual political stances. Further, your description of 'being the daddy' is (too) excessive to describe what actually takes place

You are right sending a ton of money that will not do anything and probably get intercepted by pirates who will use the money for anything but helping their fellow citizens from starving isn't being a daddy. It's being downright foolish.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 27):
Why do you doubt it, if I may?

Now why would someone who goes though the job of hijacking and hurting or killing someone to get money take that money and put it somewhere that runs the risk of getting it seized? With so many offshore outlets and other places that share their disdain of the US that could be more safer? I mean really.
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Mir
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:24 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 25):
I seriously doubt any of that money is in US banks.

Probably not, but substitute some of the European countries and the principle remains the same.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Frankly I have no stomach for another house-to-house war in a Muslim country.

I wouldn't want to have military action either - as you said, there's no way that doesn't turn into a protracted stay. But there's a difference between that and sending food.

-Mir
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Speedbird741
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
they still hate us

Once more. The average Somali does not know who or what you are. We are not discussing about a population comprised of militant groups and their followers who are left to believe in a fabricated concept of 'America'.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
It's being downright foolish.

I am not suggesting that any importance of money should be sent to the Somali Ministry of Finance. I don't think any one here is. That, yes, would be foolish. Donating money to robust organizations such as the UNHCR, who build and maintain refugee camps such as the Dadaab complex, is not only intelligent but - the shocker - humane.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
take that money and put it somewhere that runs the risk of getting it seized?

Don't fall into the belief that disguising transfer lines and money is hard when both the sender and the receiver have more to gain than to loose. I obviously cannot assert whether or not such money is held by banks subject to US jurisdiction, and therefore can only produce a guess that is as good as yours. However, I do not find it hard to conceive.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
could be more safer?

But could it be as useful?

Speedbird741
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Dreadnought
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:49 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
But there's a difference between that and sending food.

Which won't help anything as the food will be taken by the warlords, sold for cash and the cash used to buy weapons. It's been like that for the past several decades.

Do yourself a favor, and put it out of your head - and if Bob Geldof shows up, tell him, "No more".
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Superfly
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
and if Bob Geldof shows up, tell him, "No more".

LOL!   
...but we're all overdue for another who's, who celebrity line up benefit song.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
I'll be totally honest here. Somalia is one of those countries that is completely screwed. They don't have much in the area of resources, and to top it off they have a big Islamist movement determined to keep the country in the 7th century (with AK-47s and RPG-7s). The similarity with Afghanistan is striking. As we learned with Afghanistan, even if you spent hundreds of billions of dollars, there is little chance of permanently improving the country, unless you manage to hunt down and kill every single Islamist in the country. Frankly I have no stomach for another house-to-house war in a Muslim country. We spend a fortune, and they all hate us anyway.

I say ignore them.

  
I outlined a Sharia Law compliant solution in reply #12.
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slider
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:20 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 13):
Bravo, as politically incorrect as this it rings very true.

Thank you. It's time for an unvarnished discussion about this really, free from PC gibberish.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
That was 20 years ago. Things change.

The more things change, the more they stay the same... In other words, nothing's changed there.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
I'll be totally honest here. Somalia is one of those countries that is completely screwed. They don't have much in the area of resources, and to top it off they have a big Islamist movement determined to keep the country in the 7th century (with AK-47s and RPG-7s). The similarity with Afghanistan is striking. As we learned with Afghanistan, even if you spent hundreds of billions of dollars, there is little chance of permanently improving the country, unless you manage to hunt down and kill every single Islamist in the country. Frankly I have no stomach for another house-to-house war in a Muslim country. We spend a fortune, and they all hate us anyway.

I say ignore them.

Amen...we have no national interest. Ergo, no business being there. We cannot be humanitarian cops to the world any longer, we just can't.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:40 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
I say ignore them.

Two points

1) "Western" involvement in Libya was due to "suffering of civilians". There is a far greater scale of suffering of civilians in Somalia than Libya.

2) Ignoring them means warlords get stronger and underlying issues for this situation get worse. Meanwhile merchant shipping gets attacked and innocent "westerners" peacefully ignoring them get used as hostages or worse.

Why doesnt anyone give a rats ass about Somalia? Or Zimbabwe or Ivory Coast or Guinea Bissau or Rwanda or ___________ African nation? Because they dont have the stuff to power our Dodge Rams to get to Walmart selling crap that was bought in by container ships and delivered by trucks, which are powered by the same stuff Somalia dont have anything of...

Its disgusting frankly...
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BMI727
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:18 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 35):
2) Ignoring them means warlords get stronger and underlying issues for this situation get worse. Meanwhile merchant shipping gets attacked and innocent "westerners" peacefully ignoring them get used as hostages or worse.

You have to make the distinction between two aspects.

We can and should basically ignore a famine in a place that is basically shady part of the world that is controlled by thugs and people who seem to have little interest in helping themselves. It's too expensive and they don't like us anyway.

We are not and should not ignore attacks on shipping. Can we still hang people from yardarms?

The problem is usually not opening a can of whoop ass on people who don't like us. Usually the problem is trying to rebuild their countries and governments afterwards.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 35):
Why doesnt anyone give a rats ass about Somalia?

They don't really have anything that we need or want. Go dig up some oil, and then I might be interested.
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stratosphere
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:29 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 35):
Why doesnt anyone give a rats ass about Somalia? Or Zimbabwe or Ivory Coast or Guinea Bissau or Rwanda or ___________ African nation? Because they dont have the stuff to power our Dodge Rams to get to Walmart selling crap that was bought in by container ships and delivered by trucks, which are powered by the same stuff Somalia dont have anything of...

Its disgusting frankly...

Yep I am sure thats part of the reason. But FedEx just sent a 777 with tons of food on behalf of UNICEF to Nairobi to be trucked to Somalia this weekend and are doing it again next weekend. I just wonder how much of it will make it too the truly starving people. You can do all the humanitarian missions you want but when thugs rule all bets are off.
 
Superfly
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:32 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 35):
Why doesnt anyone give a rats ass about Somalia? Or Zimbabwe or Ivory Coast or Guinea Bissau or Rwanda or ___________ African nation? Because they dont have the stuff to power our Dodge Rams

Last time I checked, Mercedes, BMWs, Jaguar, Audi, Toyota, Honda and all other brands of cars runs on the same fuel.
Nigeria is in Africa and they have lots of oil.
Libya is in Africa and they have lots of oil.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 35):
Why doesnt anyone give a rats ass about Somalia?

Ask fmr. President Bill Clinton. He got our military involved in Somalia. Look at the results...
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NIKV69
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RE: Famine Crisis Declared In Somalia

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:17 am

Quoting slider (Reply 34):
Thank you. It's time for an unvarnished discussion about this really, free from PC gibberish.

Yes we need much more of this in fact.

Quoting slider (Reply 34):
The more things change, the more they stay the same... In other words, nothing's changed there.

  

Quoting slider (Reply 34):
Amen...we have no national interest. Ergo, no business being there. We cannot be humanitarian cops to the world any longer, we just can't.


Depends on the situation but in Somalia the situation is so bad with Pirates vowing to hijack any aid it would futile.

[Edited 2011-08-23 03:25:59]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!

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