CometII
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American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:05 pm

Get ready for it, because with the dismissal of the DSK case, it is already being written about around the world.

Brings back the issue of the ''american'' perp-walk. Isn't time to end this ridiculous practice by police departments? In this country you are supposed to be deemed innocent until proven otherwise. These perp walks for the 24 hour media are abusive to the suspect, which as we have seen may not always be guilty.

And let's not kid anyone: if an American had been treated in such a manner in another western justice system, we would have dissed it all over. Look at the Amanda Knox case, or Aruba with Natalie Halloway.

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:07:18]
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:13 pm

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Get ready for it, because with the dismissal of the DSK case, it is already being written about around the world.

That case being dismissed is a great moment for American Justice. It was obviously a frame up or a consentual encounter oppurtunist. Whatever the case it was a loser and to go to trial would have been a disaster.

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Brings back the issue of the ''american'' perp-walk. Isn't time to end this ridiculous practice by police departments? In this country you are supposed to be deemed innocent until proven otherwise. These perp walks for the 24 hour media are abusive to the suspect, which as we have seen may not always be guilty.

The perp media circus is not the fault of law enforcement. It's the media's fault. All a police department can do is try to walk people out the back. You can't prevent the media and people from being present at a courthouse. If you try to inhibit the media you will be hit with lawsuits and they will claim their rights are being violated. I don't like the perp walk either but what can you do? retrofit all courts and police stations with underground parking areas and donate SUVS with tinted windows?

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:21:11]
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bjcc
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:13 pm

I have to agree with you.
For a State that claims to be the land of the free, and stands for justice, it does a good imitation of a banana republic sometimes.
While no state justice system is perfect, the US system does give the impression of a presumption of guilt, and just to make sure everyone gets the message, lets all do the 'perp' (awful word!) walk.
I don't know if it's to keep the 24 hour news happy, or because your DA system is so politicized and a stepping stone to elected office but either way it does the US no favours.
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
For a State that claims to be the land of the free, and stands for justice, it does a good imitation of a banana republic sometimes.

Before this anti US rant thread gets locked lets clear up some of the fallacies. If we trying to do an imitation of a banana republic we would try to conrol the press and stop them from covering big cases such as DSK. We aren't we are the most free nation and as a result have a press that can treat the movements of a person accused as a crime in this manner.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
While no state justice system is perfect, the US system does give the impression of a presumption of guilt, and just to make sure everyone gets the message, lets all do the 'perp' (awful word!) walk

Again this is the PRESS. Not our justice system. Can you stop the US bashing long enough to grasp the facts.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
I don't know if it's to keep the 24 hour news happy, or because your DA system is so politicized and a stepping stone to elected office but either way it does the US no favours.

Now you are just not making sense. You aren't implying the DA should have taken this case to trial are you? If you are then you don't understand justice or fairness. You seem to be just venting about something. This woman was not credible, was not raped and got what she deserved. The case would have been lost so why go ahead?

In the US you need evidence. A he said she said case with a woman with no credibility caught on the phone telling somebody she stands to make a ton of money on this case. You would prosecute?
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cargolex
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:26 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
That case being dismissed is a great moment for American Justice. It was obviously a frame up or a consentual encounter oppurtunist. Whatever the case it was a loser and to go to trial would have been a disaster.

I agree with you that the case was a loser, and that's why it's not going to go to trial. I don't agree at all about your other statements, which are honestly kind of offensive. You have no access to any evidence and can't prove what you're saying.

I believe that this was not consensual - but I have no way to prove that, just like the DA. But I also think that her history makes her a very poor witness against somebody who is a very powerful, respected, known-all-over-the-world person. But he himself would make a poor witness if called to testify in his own defense.

All this in mind, I don't see how this would make the American Justice System a laughing stock. It isn't like the Jose Pedilla case, which, while Pedilla is a legitimate terrorist, blatantly violated our own legal principles and existing legal system. I'm okay with protecting people from terrorists but we shouldn't shred our own laws to do it. That's a principled stand kind of situation. This is not.

This is just a bad case that can't be proven either way. She's a bad witness, and this would be a costly trial that would most likely result in either a mistrial or a hung jury. There simply isn't a way to prove her accusation beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
got what she deserved.

Again, you're way over the line in saying that.

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:27:46]

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:30:27]
 
Rara
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:26 pm

That perp walk thingy could be done away with, but other than that, from my impression the legal system handled the case just fine. No laughing stock material in sight.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:36 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 4):
I agree with you that the case was a loser, and that's why it's not going to go to trial. I don't agree at all about your other statements, which are honestly kind of offensive. You have no access to any evidence and can't prove what you're saying.

I just don't buy that one of the most important men in the world who could walk into the presidency of France is going to arbirtiraily grab a maid in a hotel and try to force her to have sex. Makes absolutely no sense. This is so Kobe Bryant it's not even funny.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 4):
Again, you're way over the line in saying that.

No, the woman who caused all of this is over the line for she has destroyed a mans reputation and ended his political career. I just wish they had more proof than that phone call that this was a frame up because she needs to be in jail.

Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with,

How? You going to donate private parking and secret vehicles? You start trying to limit the press and you have opened a can of worms you don't want.

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:36:40]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
bjcc
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:38 pm

Less of the personal attacks please Nikv, and it would be helpful to your cause if you stopped trying to put your own spin on what I said, in place of what I actually said
Firstly, your Countrys habit of parading the accused in public, be that the so called perp walk, or the televising of bail or committal proceedings is an affront to justice and the notion of innocence until proven guilty. It quite clearly influences any idea of a fair trail in doing so.
Be that the fault of your constitution, your DA system or the Police, it matters not, it is a state defect.
Like it or not, most civilized Countries do not pull those stunts, they at least make some form of effort to prevent undue influence over a possible Juror, and that is why I feel fully justified in saying what I have, and yes, like it or not, your Justice system, thats everyone involved does behave like a banana republic. Is your publics right to gawp, greater than a right to a fair and unbiased trail?
As to whether or not he should have been charged in the first instance, no, I don't think so, on the evidence that I have seen, and I said so in the last thread on this subject. I could see huge flaws in the evidence even then, so why couldn't your Judicial System? Granted, no, I didn't see all the evidence, but having presented a fair number of cases in UK courts, I wouldn't have been happy with this one, so no, on your last point (which I cannot see how you arrived at) I would not do so.
On your point about what are Police supposed to do? Most European Countries manage to take prisoners into Court round the back, and out of sight. Before you claim its because we have older Buildings etc, we didn't start doing so in the UK until a Police service was formed, and that was in 1829, some time after your Country came into being.
 
CometII
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:39 pm

I agree that the 24 news cycle is responsible in great measure for the show that the justice process has become, increasingly. But police departments don't have any obligation to have a suspect (that is, someone not proven guilty), walked by armed officers in handcuffs. So they are also somewhat responsible for feeding the circus.
 
cargolex
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:40 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
I just don't buy that one of the most important men in the world who could walk into the presidency of France is going to arbirtiraily grab a maid in a hotel and try to force her to have sex. Makes absolutely no sense. This is so Kobe Bryant it's not even funny.

I don't understand it either, but again, you have no more evidence to prove the version you would like to believe than the version she believes. I also don't understand why a federal justice would routinely sexually harass his law clerk, or why the President would have an affair with an intern. Or why a Tennesse School administrator who was loved by his entire community would rape a woman and then murder his wife. But these things did happen.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
No, the woman who caused all of this is over the line for she has destroyed a mans reputation and ended his political career. I just wish they had more proof than that phone call that this was a frame up because she needs to be in jail.

Again, with no evidence to support your claim, you've already tried and convicted her. What if she's not lying? If it really did happen, you've just said that a woman who was raped deserved what she got and should be in jail. You have nothing to prove that this is not, in fact, exactly what she says it is.

I don't really buy it either, but you're way out of line to suggest, with no evidence, that somebody who may have been raped "deserved it" and should be in jail for merely reporting it.

Are we living in Pakistan now?

[Edited 2011-08-23 09:42:53]
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 9):
I don't really buy it either, but you're way out of line to suggest, with no evidence, that somebody who may have been raped "deserved it" and should be in jail for merely reporting it.

Are we living in Pakistan now?

Nice spin, I didn't say the deserved to be raped or in jail for reporting it because quite frankly it's plain to see she wasn't and the jail comment is because she basically made this up and destroyed somebody. I meant she deserved to have the case dropped. If you dislike my opinion fine but I am entitled to it so please keep it in context.

There will never be any evidence since nobody else was there but what little there is points to a woman who saw dollar signs.
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cargolex
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:53 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
I didn't say the deserved to be raped or in jail for reporting it because quite frankly it's plain to see she wasn't and the jail comment is because she basically made this up and destroyed somebody.

Hmmm...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
This woman was not credible, was not raped and got what she deserved.
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
No, the woman who caused all of this is over the line for she has destroyed a mans reputation and ended his political career. I just wish they had more proof than that phone call that this was a frame up because she needs to be in jail.

They're your words, not mine.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 10):
If you dislike my opinion fine but I am entitled to it so please keep it in context.

You are of course, entitled to your opinion and I'm not saying you're not. But simply having the right to say something does not absolve you from what you say. Just as you are free to speak your mind, other people are free to criticize what you say.

You don't believe she was raped? That's fine. I hear you. I understand. Part of me even agrees. But what if you're wrong and she really was raped? What do your statements look like then? If you don't want to be called out on things, don't say them.

What you're saying is essentially "Rubin Carter killed those people and deserved to be in jail." At one time, the evidence might have suggested that. All the circumstances pointed away from giving him the benefit of the doubt too. For heaven's sake - he was convicted twice. But we know now that he was innocent. My point is that you really have no more insight into this than anybody else and if you are wrong, you kind of look like a monster when you say things like "Got what she deserved."

It's over the line.

[Edited 2011-08-23 10:01:46]
 
Ken777
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:03 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
This woman was not credible, was not raped and got what she deserved.

IIRC, the DNA was credible. The dude had sex with a hotel maid? Such an important guy, maybe the next President of France and he's making the Beast With Two Backs with a hotel maid?

So the guy had a perp walk. Too bloody bad. A man of 'such high stature' should know how to keep his pants zipped. When he's rutting around with anything in a skirt it's pretty hard to believe he doesn't force him self a bit now and then.

As far as the law goes, the civil action might be the best way to go. Like OJ, the criminal trial and the civil trial are two different environments. Maybe it will be enough to keep the dude out of the US.

BTW, how may hotels will feel comfortable having the dude register in the future?
 
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par13del
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with,
Quoting bjcc (Reply 7):
Firstly, your Countrys habit of parading the accused in public, be that the so called perp walk, or the televising of bail or committal proceedings is an affront to justice and the notion of innocence until proven guilty. It quite clearly influences any idea of a fair trail in doing so.
Be that the fault of your constitution, your DA system or the Police, it matters not, it is a state defect.

I see those as the freedom of the press, even if they bring the persons in via a back door, if they are prevented from recording on the proceedings you are denying press freedom, essentially the peoples right to know.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 7):
Like it or not, most civilized Countries do not pull those stunts, they at least make some form of effort to prevent undue influence over a possible Juror, and that is why I feel fully justified in saying what I have, and yes, like it or not, your Justice system, thats everyone involved does behave like a banana republic.

Yes, most civilized countries do not have freedom of the press, it is easy to put them both together and say the system of justice is creating the issue by allowing press freedom, unfortunately, that's not the way it works. When one starts restricting access it becomes easy to create / control situations to the detriment of the innocent, one should not have to rely on the good graces of those running the system to obtain fairness.

I do however believe that the press in the USA does seem to think that they have some right not conveyed on them by anyone or anything, they are not the 4th branch behind the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary, they are all commercial organizations in business to make a profit from reporting the news.
 
flymia
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
For a State that claims to be the land of the free, and stands for justice, it does a good imitation of a banana republic sometimes.

You have to be joking right? Your a lawyer I presume and you are saying this? Lets go to Mexico or Venezuela or hey even Italy now those are justice systems with some flaws in them. The charges dropped, not enough evidence. The burden of truth falls so much on the prosecution. Perfect example Kasey Anthony case.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
While no state justice system is perfect, the US system does give the impression of a presumption of guilt
Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with,

Freedom of the press everyone. They can do and say just about whatever they want and the government cant stop them. If they want to follow the car he is in with a helicopter they can, if they want to have 30 cameras at the door they can.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
D L X
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:21 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
The perp media circus is not the fault of law enforcement. It's the media's fault.

Baloney.

The media gets tipped off by the cops that they will be walking the guy out in public.

The handcuffs are put on by the cops.

Unless you are a violent criminal, it is unlikely that either of us no-names would be walked in handcuffs.

I'm not sure I'm for ending the practice, but we shouldn't not call it what it is: a show put on by the cops.

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Freedom of the press everyone. They can do and say just about whatever they want and the government cant stop them. If they want to follow the car he is in with a helicopter they can, if they want to have 30 cameras at the door they can.

That doesn't mean that law enforcement should be an accomplice to this ritual.

Seriously, why are D.A.'s holding press conferences when they arrest someone? To steer public opinion.

Why do the cops do the perp walk? To steer public opinion.

[Edited 2011-08-23 10:31:18]
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:14 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
IIRC, the DNA was credible. The dude had sex with a hotel maid? Such an important guy, maybe the next President of France and he's making the Beast With Two Backs with a hotel maid?

So Clinton had some ugly fat girl. To each his own.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
The media gets tipped off by the cops that they will be walking the guy out in public.

Bull, where did you get this red herring from? Besides most odf these perp walks are court appearances and the times of hearings are public.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
Unless you are a violent criminal, it is unlikely that either of us no-names would be walked in handcuffs.

Huh? This makes no sense. So now you are only put in handcuffs if you are famous? If you get arrested for a crime you are put in handcuffs, then brought to jail. Where you are held until your court appearance. At that point if you are indicted the judge makes the call on whether you are detained or allowed out on bail.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
a show put on by the cops.

Totally false and without merit. Police don't need or want this circus this is a direct result of the Nancy Grace ambush media.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
Seriously, why are D.A.'s holding press conferences when they arrest someone? To steer public opinion.

Why do the cops do the perp walk? To steer public opinion.

Again this is a red herring.
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Ken777
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
So Clinton had some ugly fat girl. To each his own.

DSK appears to be a bit more rancid:

Quote:

The prosecutors' account of the actions of Strauss-Kahn are similarly narrow. The picture they paint of him is an ugly one. Within minutes of Diallo's arrival in his hotel room, she was spitting out his semen in the hotel hallway. But the prosecutors say that, at this point, they cannot prove that Strauss-Kahn assaulted Diallo. At a minimum, it seems, Strauss-Kahn behaved like a cad and a creep, but that is a moral, not legal, judgment.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/08/2....strauss.kahn/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Emphasis mine.

The guy does have problems when it comes to women - the BusinessWeek story hits on it as well.

Quote:
Strauss-Kahn’s reputation as a seducer has long been an important part of his mystique, one of the layers of complexity that elevated him above the status of a mere academic and turned him into an intellectual celebrity.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...f-look-the-other-way-08112011.html
 
iakobos
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:36 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
No, the woman who caused all of this is over the line for she has destroyed a mans reputation and ended his political career. I just wish they had more proof than that phone call that this was a frame up because she needs to be in jail.

They have, plenty of it.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 9):
Again, with no evidence to support your claim, you've already tried and convicted her. What if she's not lying?

The problem is she is, on multiple occasions. Actually very little of what she claimed, except for the precise time she entered the suite, has been corroborated by facts and evidence.

The timing of the alleged aggression: IIRC she spent 17 minutes in the suite and it is proven that DSK called his daughter about 8 minutes after ND entered the suite, in other words when she was inside.
It does not make the "he came out naked, rushed over and grabbed my breasts" as claimed by ND impossible but not in the context of a rape.
Approximately 8 minutes, starting naked, then a phone call (to his daughter), then 7 minutes, ending dressed.

Her actions immediately afterwards: a/ she cleans the suite, the one where she says she has been raped, but she does not clean thoroughly since semen is found on the floor and on the wall.
b/ she goes to clean another suite c/ she asks her supervisor if clients are entitled to personal favors from the personnel.

Technically, oral sex is a huge risk for an unarmed rapist. Probably the DA asked an expert opinion about this.
Closing her mandibles for half a second would have changed the whole picture. Totally inconsistent with forced sex.
She declared having spit semen in the sink, but no DNA traces could be found in the sink or the plumbing
If she had to spit, where does the semen on the wall come ?

contrary to "popular" belief, DSK has no marks, no scratches
her actions after the "event" do not match the records (keylocks)
she gave three different versions of the events, with every new one denying she gave another one before
at one time she rolled on the ground in the DA's office
for several days she denied attending DA's invitations, citing her incapacity due to her damaged shoulder (rupture of the ligaments with which she cleaned two suites)

add the phone call to a convict who seems to be her boyfriend with a sentence pertaining to "I know what I am doing"
the money (100,000$ ?) transiting on her bank account with transfers from four States...of which she has no knowledge
the extra child put on her tax records to get a bigger refund
the gang rape in Guinea that did not take place
the false immigration records based on long rehearsal of a taped template

Me thinks that person not only has zero credibility but should not come clean out of this.
What is the sentence for (repeatedly) lying under oath ?

http://www.courts.state.ny.us/whatsnew/pdf/dsk_motion_to_dismiss.pdf
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:41 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 18):
The problem is she is, on multiple occasions. Actually very little of what she claimed, except for the precise time she entered the suite, has been corroborated by facts and evidence.

The timing of the alleged aggression: IIRC she spent 17 minutes in the suite and it is proven that DSK called his daughter about 8 minutes after ND entered the suite, in other words when she was inside.
It does not make the "he came out naked, rushed over and grabbed my breasts" as claimed by ND impossible but not in the context of a rape.
Approximately 8 minutes, starting naked, then a phone call (to his daughter), then 7 minutes, ending dressed.

Her actions immediately afterwards: a/ she cleans the suite, the one where she says she has been raped, but she does not clean thoroughly since semen is found on the floor and on the wall.
b/ she goes to clean another suite c/ she asks her supervisor if clients are entitled to personal favors from the personnel.

Technically, oral sex is a huge risk for an unarmed rapist. Probably the DA asked an expert opinion about this.
Closing her mandibles for half a second would have changed the whole picture. Totally inconsistent with forced sex.
She declared having spit semen in the sink, but no DNA traces could be found in the sink or the plumbing
If she had to spit, where does the semen on the wall come ?

contrary to "popular" belief, DSK has no marks, no scratches
her actions after the "event" do not match the records (keylocks)
she gave three different versions of the events, with every new one denying she gave another one before
at one time she rolled on the ground in the DA's office
for several days she denied attending DA's invitations, citing her incapacity due to her damaged shoulder (rupture of the ligaments with which she cleaned two suites)

add the phone call to a convict who seems to be her boyfriend with a sentence pertaining to "I know what I am doing"
the money (100,000$ ?) transiting on her bank account with transfers from four States...of which she has no knowledge
the extra child put on her tax records to get a bigger refund
the gang rape in Guinea that did not take place
the false immigration records based on long rehearsal of a taped template

Me thinks that person not only has zero credibility but should not come clean out of this.
What is the sentence for (repeatedly) lying under oath ?

Very good post! Michael Savage was discussing the theory this was a set up in which she was paid to seduce him and then claim rape to derail his run for French Pres. I tell you it makes a lot of sense.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
cargolex
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:51 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 19):
Michael Savage

Perhaps the only source more credible than Conservapedia. And a guy with a great love of immigrants of color, too.
 
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kasimir
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with, but other than that, from my impression the legal system handled the case just fine.

I need to agree with Rara. The media being hyper about this is quite normal, there is nothing much "exciting" going on and this is a textbook tabloid story: "the big french banker raping the poor cleaning lady". There is so much contrast in this story (which makes people want to know more) and since we all have so little details what really went on, this also leaves a lot of room for speculation...

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
...we are the most free nation...

Yeah right ... If you repeat it often enough, at some point they might believe it.
 
Ken777
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:09 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
Within minutes of Diallo's arrival in his hotel room, she was spitting out his semen in the hotel hallway.

Isn't that the DNA? Didn't it test out to be DSK?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:10 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):

The perp media circus is not the fault of law enforcement.

If the "law" allows innocent people to be filmed before they have even been tried, then how is that the fault of the press ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 1):
All a police department can do is try to walk people out the back. You can't prevent the media and people from being present at a courthouse. If you try to inhibit the media you will be hit with lawsuits and they will claim their rights are being violated. I don't like the perp walk either but what can you do? retrofit all courts and police stations with underground parking areas and donate SUVS with tinted windows?

We don't seem to have any trouble keeping the press away from such case in Australia.
Why is it so difficult in the U.S.?

Quoting bjcc (Reply 2):
While no state justice system is perfect, the US system does give the impression of a presumption of guilt, and just to make sure everyone gets the message, lets all do the 'perp' (awful word!) walk.

Yes I agree. And then when the case is thrown out of court, just watch all the suing that will occur, again allowed by the "system"

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
Not our justice system.

It is your justice system, its nobody else s is it ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
This woman was not credible

And has been allowed, with the help of your justice system to ruin a man

Is that what you call fair  Wow!
Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 3):
In the US you need evidence.

What evidence ?
A mans reputation has been ruined.... where is the evidence ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
How? You going to donate private parking and secret vehicles? You start trying to limit the press and you have opened a can of worms you don't want.

Look how other country's handle such cases.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 7):
Firstly, your Countrys habit of parading the accused in public, be that the so called perp walk, or the televising of bail or committal proceedings is an affront to justice and the notion of innocence until proven guilty. It quite clearly influences any idea of a fair trail in doing so.

Strangely amazing that some here can't seem to grasp this fact !

Quoting bjcc (Reply 7):
On your point about what are Police supposed to do? Most European Countries manage to take prisoners into Court round the back, and out of sight. Before you claim its because we have older Buildings etc, we didn't start doing so in the UK until a Police service was formed, and that was in 1829, some time after your Country came into being.

We don't have any problem concealing peoples identity in Australia before trail.
Seems as though this is all to hard too achieve in the might US.

Quoting par13del (Reply 13):
I see those as the freedom of the press, even if they bring the persons in via a back door, if they are prevented from recording on the proceedings you are denying press freedom, essentially the peoples right to know.

The press is free to report the fact after they have been established, as they should.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Again this is a red herring.

Well, what is it for then ?

I cant see how it serves ANY purpose at all in the proceedings, except to create a media frenzy.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
bjcc
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:12 pm

Your mistaking 2 different things par13del.
Freedom of the press is fine and reasonable, when it's there to inform. When it's being used to influence, then thats a different matter, its then control of opinion. If you think thats reasonable, then we are at no hope junction!
The very people who read papers or watch TV news are those going to serve as a jury. Is the so called freedom of press more important than a fair trail? Is it not better to find guilt or otherwise on evidence, not on who puts the best show on?
So, what purpose does this so called 'purp' walk serve other than ritual humiliation? None as far as Justice is concerned, save to reinforce the notion that the accused is guilty.
What purpose does televising a trail serve? Very little, and in the well know 'finest hour' of US justice O J Simpson did it really serve anyones notion of justice? No, of course not, it simply served to make a lot of people a lot of money. oh, and satisfy a morbid voyeuristic audience.
While I am sure than US Courts are to an extent the same as UK in that everyone is acting, putting a TV camera into the mix, just encourages that act to take center stage, not the evidence.
flymia, no, I was a Policeman, and in the UK before we adopted a form of Public Prosecutor, known as the Criminal Protection Society, sorry, I mean Crown Prosecution Service, we presented cases or put in simple terms appeared as the prosecution lawyer in the lower (Magistrates) Court and instructed Counsel in the Crown (or higher) Court.
While every Judicial system has a method of withdrawing prosecutions should the need arise, the majority of them do so without first going through a humiliation exercise, ie not doing what the US does with regular monotony. That is like it or not, what makes your 'system' no better than the banana republics, and why it comes into for critical comment from those outside the US. It's not helped by your claim to be defenders of Justice on one hand, and perverting it on the other.
The fact that charges have been dropped is neither here nor there in the eyes of some, the simple fact he's been treated as guilty is the issue here.
Ken777. DNA evidence proves nothing at all about guilt. It simply shows contact. That was never in dispute. The issue here was consent, and clearly the prosecution were not in a position to prove there was no consent. That was reasonably predictable from the off.

[Edited 2011-08-23 13:18:44]
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:16 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with, but other than that, from my impression the legal system handled the case just fine. No laughing stock material in sight.

Exactly, apart from the perp walk (and the unavoidable media hyperbole), the US Justice has worked as it should, albeit with the speed of a handicapped snail.

May 14 - Aug 23 that's 101 days, a long time for a case that rested on very soft ground right after the first week.
If you read the 25 pages of the "motion to dismiss" you will realize that at the end of June they knew exactly as much as they did today. Why the additional seven weeks ?
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 20):
Conservapedia

LOL, Yep fortunately the DA shared his opinion because it seems he is right.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22):
Isn't that the DNA? Didn't it test out to be DSK?

DSK said he had an consenual encounter with her.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
If the "law" allows innocent people to be filmed before they have even been tried, then how is that the fault of the press ?

Police can't stop the press from photographing something that is newsworthy (Fair Use and Freedom of the press) but it's the press that make it the spectacle that it is.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
We don't seem to have any trouble keeping the press away from such case in Australia.
Why is it so difficult in the U.S.?

Nobody cares what happens in Austraila where the whole world loves what happens in the US.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
It is your justice system, its nobody else s is it ?

Ok now you are baiting me into a anti US war. Have fun on your own with that.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
And has been allowed, with the help of your justice system to ruin a man

You will have to explain this one, it makes absolutely no sense. The justice system did it's duty, the press and this idiot woman made it a worldwide spectacle.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Look how other country's handle such cases.

Again they don't garner a fraction of the attention that the US does.

[Edited 2011-08-23 14:12:37]

[Edited 2011-08-23 14:17:27]
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:13 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Your a lawyer
You're

Something is not right here..either this whole thing was a plot to prevent him (DSK) from running for French President..or the guy actually did it and paid some people off to shut up. Hard to believe all this fuss over consensual sex..
אני תומך בישראל
 
D L X
Posts: 11696
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:28 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
The media gets tipped off by the cops that they will be walking the guy out in public.

Bull, where did you get this red herring from?

Law school. Where did you hear otherwise?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
So now you are only put in handcuffs if you are famous?

Bullseye.

You're considerably less likely to be cuffed if you are a non-violent nobody.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 16):
Where you are held until your court appearance.

Most people are released on their own recognizance and given a date at which they will appear, on their own, before the judge.
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:36 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
Law school. Where did you hear otherwise?

That had to be the same school Kunstler and Kuby went to maybe?

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
You're considerably less likely to be cuffed if you are a non-violent nobody.

So you are telling me if I get arrested for a non-violent crime the police won't cuff me? Bull.

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
Most people are released on their own recognizance and given a date at which they will appear, on their own, before the judge.

Like DSK was, then the press made it into a spectacle and lined both sides of his walk to and fro court and inside. It wasn't a result of law enforcement it is a result of Nancy Grace.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
comorin
Posts: 3860
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:49 pm

I urge you all to read the dismissal document filed by the NY D.A.'s office - makes me proud of the "Law and Order" aspect of the Judicial System:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...mmendation-to-dismiss-case.html?hp

Enjoy!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:16 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
Police can't stop the press from photographing something that is newsworthy

Crap.

Why can't police shield him (DSK) from the Press. They, the police don't need to accommodate the press's wishes by "showing him off" do they. But yet they, the police allowed that to happen...... So who's fault is it ???????

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
Nobody cares what happens in Austraila where the whole world loves what happens in the US.

I am using Australia as an example, just like other posters in this thread have stated, it doesn't happen in Europe either, so why then sarcastic response ?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
Ok know you are baiting me into a anti US war. Have fun on your own with that.

I am not baiting you into anything, merely pointing to other examples, that's all.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
The justice system did it's duty,

What ?

Did its duty ?

To allow a mans life to be completely ruined.

Sounds real fair and "unbiased" to me .... Not !

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 29):
then the press made it into a spectacle and lined both sides of his walk to and fro court and inside.

The police could have taken him in through the back door, there by avoiding all the press spectacle.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
iakobos
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:23 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 27):
Something is not right here..either this whole thing was a plot to prevent him (DSK) from running for French President..or the guy actually did it and paid some people off to shut up. Hard to believe all this fuss over consensual sex..

Well Springbok, you are most probably not a frequent international traveler.

This fuss as you said seems very likely to originate in a "give me a quick wrist job" (or alternatively "do you want me to help ?") that gave the manual laborer the idea to devise a simple but badly devised plot in order to gain a very significant amount of money.

In case you did not know, this is a rather frequent act in thousands of places, (almost) everywhere around the world.
Once the reward has been discussed and agreed upon it remains a non-event, well usually.
The guy who has by far the best knowledge of who to call for exactly what you want is called a hotel caretaker.

For the information of those who are not willing to read the whole 25 pages, semen traces from three other persons were found in the same area of the same suite, which proves that either Sofitel is substandard in cleaning their carpets, or it is a frequent exercise, or both.

Where are our friends from past threads who were so adamant, still walking with rope in hand ?
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
Why can't police shield him (DSK) from the Press. They, the police don't need to accommodate the press's wishes by "showing him off" do they. But yet they, the police allowed that to happen...... So who's fault is it ???????

Shield him? It's not their responsibility, what do you want them to get more in their budget for a choice of disguises for each perp? Again not their deal. I am sure most go out of their way to provide for their safety in high profile cases (Anthony) but they are not responsible for the paparazzi and ambush journalists driven by Nancy Grace.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
I am using Australia as an example, just like other posters in this thread have stated, it doesn't happen in Europe either, so why then sarcastic response ?

It wasn't sarcastic it was truthful. When we get a huge story here it attracts so much more attention than it would in Austrailia. Sorry but it's the way it is. Hence you have a much easier time with the media circus.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
What ?

Did its duty ?

To allow a mans life to be completely ruined.

Sounds real fair and "unbiased" to me .... Not !

The justice system can't provde anomimoity for every high profle case. Court proceedings and police blotters are public domain. You can't blame them for the media's behavior either or the 24 hour news cycle where Nancy Grace convicts them on her show before the person is even indicted.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
The police could have taken him in through the back door, there by avoiding all the press spectacle.

Uhhh once a guy is out on bail the police don't escort him out or to court and then back to his house after court. He is a free man unless he skips. Could you get the facts please?
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
comorin
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:46 pm

"In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the police who investigate crime and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders."

You all know where you heard that!

I agree that perp walks by the police are not a good thing, and is a form of prosecution bias. It also irretrievably tarnishes the reputations of public figures.

Other than that, I think the excellent US Criminal Justice system provides due process to everyman, and is behind many of the freedoms one enjoys as an American citizen. I'm not sure where I stand on Guantanamo, the Patriot Act and Renditions.
 
NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:52 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 34):
I agree that perp walks by the police are not a good thing, and is a form of prosecution bias. It also irretrievably tarnishes the reputations of public figures.

Again in NYC where else are they going to walk him out of? Some of the buildings don't have back doors or anything. I mean what do you want a Helcpoter to take him off the roof? This is not a police problem. It's a media problem both on the ground and on the 24 hour news cycle.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
474218
Posts: 4510
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:53 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
Why can't police shield him (DSK) from the Press.


He was, when he was in jail he was shielded from the press. However, when he is on a city street (sidewalk) he can be photographed just like any other person.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
To allow a mans life to be completely ruined.


Do you honestly think DSK has no culpability in this fiasco?
 
EDICHC
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 13):
I see those as the freedom of the press, even if they bring the persons in via a back door, if they are prevented from recording on the proceedings you are denying press freedom, essentially the peoples right to know.

I agree in part but freedom to report AFTER any trial. The media circus surrounding this case compromised any chance of a fair trial which is surely a greater fundamental right in any free society?

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 26):
Nobody cares what happens in Austraila where the whole world loves what happens in the US.

No need for this kind of baiting. In NZ there is provision in law for name suppression of defendants. If name suppression is granted any media source identifying the defendant would be charged with contempt of court. Before you start labelling NZ as a Banana Republic restricting freedom of the press etc, let it be known that NZ is probably one of the most liberal nations on the planet.
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TheCommodore
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:10 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 34):
Other than that, I think the excellent US Criminal Justice system provides due process to everyman, and is behind many of the freedoms one enjoys as an American citizen.

But yet you then go on to say this....

Quoting comorin (Reply 34):
I'm not sure where I stand on Guantanamo, the Patriot Act and Renditions.

Isn't this also part of the justice system ?

So you are not really sure where you stand on these other "matters" is fair enough, but I can't understand you saying that,
" the excellent US Criminal Justice system provides due process to everyman, and is behind many of the freedoms one enjoys as an American citizen"
Not so true for those enjoying the hospitality in Gitto etc is it ?

Quoting 474218 (Reply 36):
Do you honestly think DSK has no culpability in this fiasco?

None that has been proven, or have I missed something ?

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
Before you start labelling NZ as a Banana Republic restricting freedom of the press etc, let it be known that NZ is probably one of the most liberal nations on the planet.

I agree. The same in Australia, very liberal and fair to all concerned, but I don't think your example on NZ, or mine of Australia, will find many fans in the US.

[Edited 2011-08-23 16:11:20]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
474218
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:34 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 38):
None that has been proven, or have I missed something ?

From DSK lawyer: "This encounter was quick, it was consensual and she was a willing participant,"
 
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Aesma
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:00 am

Firstly, I'm glad this ends this way, including for selfish political reasons, as I don't want this case to play any part in the 2012 French elections, other than eliminating DSK, a fact I'm quite happy with, unless Sarkozy manages to win again. DSK is too much to the center for my taste.

Now, about the main focus of this topic, the perp walk. The police did play a willing part, there is no denying it. I have seen (and probably recorded) footage of somebody coming from the police station and announcing to the media something along the lines of "don't worry, we'll walk him out of here, you'll have a great angle".

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Shield him? It's not their responsibility

Somehow they managed it fine for the alleged victim, I've seen pictures where she was under a sheet or something. As for the press, her name was never mentioned (in the US), did the press do that on its own ?

Freedom is not an absolute, and a lot of freedoms and rights are limited by other freedoms and rights. It's perfectly natural that different countries put the boundaries at different places, but don't claim it's all in the name of freedom. Besides, I thought privacy was also sacred in the US, so much so that in this 21st century you still don't have a real ID card.

Here in France we have a law banning the media from showing the accused in handcuffs, and of taking pictures and videos inside the courts (we get great drawings instead). Somehow, the media is fine with it, and many a journalist was appalled by the perp walk of DSK (others where happy to show it every two minutes for 3 days, don't get me wrong).
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NIKV69
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
DSK is too much to the center for my taste.

Exactly why he was most likely set up.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
Somehow they managed it fine for the alleged victim, I've seen pictures where she was under a sheet or something. As for the press, her name was never mentioned (in the US), did the press do that on its own ?

She exposed herself to the public. Also in the US the person being accused has the right to know who is accusing him. After that I think it's up to the judge to close the proceedings but again that is not the role of police.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
Here in France we have a law banning the media from showing the accused in handcuffs, and of taking pictures and videos inside the courts (we get great drawings instead). Somehow, the media is fine with it

I like the not having cameras in the courtroom. We need that here.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
ltbewr
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:21 am

Yes, there are serious problems with our (American) Criminal Justice system that needs changes by law or practice including ending or restricting 'perp walks', pre-trial and trial publicity by all parties and attorneys, especially in matters involving unusual or extreme crimes or famous persons like here. The 'perp walks' are mainly to be a show by the police that they 'got their man', the public is no longer in danger from this 'criminal', that they are doing their job to the taxpayers. Some public actions are also to keep the system somewhat transparent, to limit what can happen if behind closed doors too much.

Things that do work: Except as to alleged terrorists (in reality) one cannot be forced to admit to a crime, to incriminate themselves per the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution, despite the perp walk implications, the prosecutors' pre-trial comments, both practices which are to try to intimidate someone to plead guilty to the charges or plea bargain to a lesser charge. In this matter, we had a serious charge of rape. For Prosecutors, they need to be very aggressive on seeking rape convictions due to political pressures, especially from women. However it was clear that there were serious reasons to believe that there was no case here, indeed there might have been a set up by the maid, but it did take time to make sure the stories were thoroughly investigated as they were. The Prosecutors realized that they did not have a case and have withdrawn the charges which is right to do.

Sadly, we may never know the truth as to what happened here. That is the worst part of all this case. DSK has been ruined, the maid could be (and perhaps should be with her daughter) booted out of the USA and back to her very dangerous home country. The media and prosecutors look bad. Some women may be reluctant to bring legitimate charges of rape or other crimes against them if done by someone who is rich and powerful, letting them get away with those crimes because of what happened here. Many will hold beliefs that this woman was seeking money or made here claims to do something for a 3rd party who wanted to ruin DSK from being in French politics or the IMF.
 
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par13del
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:32 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 15):
That doesn't mean that law enforcement should be an accomplice to this ritual.

Seriously, why are D.A.'s holding press conferences when they arrest someone? To steer public opinion.

Why do the cops do the perp walk? To steer public opinion.

I honestly believe that when this first started it was to shame the individual and encourage other victims to come forward with additional evidence, those days and times are long since gone.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
We don't seem to have any trouble keeping the press away from such case in Australia.
Why is it so difficult in the U.S.?
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Look how other country's handle such cases

I think that is the key, what are the rights of the media and how are they controlled, obviously their is only one USA with its constitution, a number of countries gained independence after WWII there laws and constitutions if any are the product of more modern day times and thinkers. No judgement on the benefits or lack there of.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
The press is free to report the fact after they have been established, as they should.

Which facts and established by whom, I think that is where some in the media attempt to show their worth.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 24):
Freedom of the press is fine and reasonable, when it's there to inform. When it's being used to influence, then thats a different matter, its then control of opinion.

It may well be but the pandora's box that gets opened is who determines and how is it determined when it is being used to inform and influence. Prosecutors for example usually have the entire might of the state on their side, in some jurisdictions the judiciary is not independent of the police forces.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 24):
What purpose does televising a trail serve?

I would ask it another way, does the public have a right to see a trial? If we accept TV as being a form of communication, if citizens can sit in the gallery whats the difference? It should be rememberd that the main stream media only televises cases that enhance their commercial aspirations, I used to love Court TV as it's cases were not all high profile, that network got changed because it did not make enough money. In the US PBS should probably carry some court cases for educational purposes.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 24):
The fact that charges have been dropped is neither here nor there in the eyes of some, the simple fact he's been treated as guilty is the issue here.

In some area's of the US that I have visited, they disregard arrest as the mantra is innocent until proven guilty. Its a difference from my experiences throughout the Caribbean where even though not stated in our laws, one is guilty until proven innocent, an arrest carries much more stigma than in the US, generalization based on my experiences.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
But yet they, the police allowed that to happen...... So who's fault is it ???????

The Police. Some media houses pay freelance photographers for snaps done around police stations, others wait for call from the police snitches.

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 37):
The media circus surrounding this case compromised any chance of a fair trial which is surely a greater fundamental right in any free society?

Well its has to be balanced by the publics right to know. The number of cases whether guilty or not when folks say the jury got it wrong based on the evidence presented is few and far between, sometimes we have very little faith in our fellow citizens to give a fair hearing. When the reasons are given for their verdict we usually agree that they were right even though we believe the bastards were guilty, evidence be dammed.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
Somehow they managed it fine for the alleged victim, I've seen pictures where she was under a sheet or something. As for the press, her name was never mentioned (in the US), did the press do that on its own ?

I have a number of problems with rape shield laws, but it is in the trial stage and what evidence can be presented, but thats for another topic, but the general thought process is that there are different rules for alleged victims, I think for the most part I am ok with them.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):

Here in France we have a law banning the media from showing the accused in handcuffs, and of taking pictures and videos inside the courts (we get great drawings instead).

So my question to the Americans would be can courts - state or federal - in the USA do the same.
 
474218
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:12 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 43):
So my question to the Americans would be can courts - state or federal - in the USA do the same.

No.

Nor should they.

DSK would not have ever been seen in handcuffs if, instead of running to the airport and boarding a plane to leave the country, he called his lawyer and arranged to turn himself in.

Where I live there is a weekly magazine called "Just Busted". The magazine has the mug shots and charges for everyone arrested in a eight county area in the prior week. While it is not great literature, it is a fun read.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:56 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 6):
Quoting Rara (Reply 5):
That perp walk thingy could be done away with,

How? You going to donate private parking and secret vehicles? You start trying to limit the press and you have opened a can of worms you don't want.

Don't blame the press. They just recorded the show put up by NYPD.

NIKV69 is right. At least just give the man five minutes to shave and dress properly in his suit. Until the court has put him to jail.

That show with prison dress and handcuffs was really a banana republic style which couldn't have happened in most of the civilized world.

Not because it was DSK. Any person deserves to be treated with some dignity as long as nobody knows whether his is guilty or not. It should be obvious in a country where people claim to be free.
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par13del
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:57 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 44):
DSK would not have ever been seen in handcuffs if, instead of running to the airport and boarding a plane to leave the country,

I forgot that, point noted.

Quoting 474218 (Reply 44):
Where I live there is a weekly magazine called "Just Busted". The magazine has the mug shots and charges for everyone arrested in a eight county area in the prior week. While it is not great literature, it is a fun read.

I noticied a number of online news web sites in Tampa for example have a weekly line up of the latest mug shots, I assume those are provided via freedom of information.
 
bjcc
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:33 am

ltbewr At last an American who's got the confidence to see that the system isn't something it's not, that being perfect.
A couple of your points though. You don't need to march the accused round the streets in Handcuffs to show that Police have done their job, a simple 2 line press statement would achieve the same thing. In any case, does it show that the public is no longer in danger from a dangerous criminal? In this case no, it doesn't, it simply showed an innocent man being walked into court in Handcuffs.
Yes, I can see the arguments over court TV, but to say that they are to provide transparency might be an excuse to get them there, in high profile cases, they simply provide voyeuristic entertainment. The public gallery, and press manage to achieve the same thing in the UK (and the UK Based Court systems) , and without turning it into a 3 ring circus with a cast of 1000's.
But whats really worrying, is that both of these have failed in their stated primary purpose in this case.
As you say there is political pressure in sexual offenses cases in the US. The Judiciary should be and seen to be beyond influence from anyone, that is the difference between a proper Judiciary and that of a banana republic. In this case, if there were doubts at an early stage, then those doubts should have been investigated BEFORE charge, not afterwards.
Now, I have to assume here, but surely, the US works in much the same way as everyone else, and the process goes, allegation, primary investigation, arrest, interview, assess evidence, hold in custody or bail until investigation is complete, or charge.
If not, it makes the US look even worse than it already does.
 
ozglobal
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:42 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 44):
Quoting par13del (Reply 43):
So my question to the Americans would be can courts - state or federal - in the USA do the same.

No.

Nor should they.

DSK would not have ever been seen in handcuffs if, instead of running to the airport and boarding a plane to leave the country, he called his lawyer and arranged to turn himself in.

You are misinformed. The flight was booked well in advance and part of his published schedule as a VIP in the hotel. He lunched with his daughter after the alleged event and then went to JFK as planned. HE called the hotel from JFK to ask if he had left a phone behind. None of this is consistent with the suggestion he was 'running to the airport'. These facts have been well known to anyone interested from the first days and are not disputed by the final police report.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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par13del
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RE: American Justice System Laughing Stock?

Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:34 am

Quoting bjcc (Reply 47):
Now, I have to assume here, but surely, the US works in much the same way as everyone else, and the process goes, allegation, primary investigation, arrest, interview, assess evidence, hold in custody or bail until investigation is complete, or charge.
If not, it makes the US look even worse than it already does.

Everyone does the same thing, what differentiates systems is who does what and what protections exist for those thrown into the system.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 47):
ltbewr At last an American who's got the confidence to see that the system isn't something it's not, that being perfect.

National pride aside, is there anyone who is going to claim that their system is perfect?

Quoting bjcc (Reply 47):
A couple of your points though. You don't need to march the accused round the streets in Handcuffs to show that Police have done their job, a simple 2 line press statement would achieve the same thing. In any case, does it show that the public is no longer in danger from a dangerous criminal? In this case no, it doesn't, it simply showed an innocent man being walked into court in Handcuffs.

Society issues which usually are the result of the founding documents of a nation. We now have instant media tv, radio, internet etc. these are all tools and we need to put them in the proper perspective, in particular the role of the media and its involvement in society including government. The NOW scandal in the UK, the hearing that was interrupted by a protestor, the riots, the suddenly stiff punishments now being by judges, councils now getting involved punishing parents for their kids. What's the medias role in all this, were any laws recently changed to allow / facilate these activities or does society have to adjust / modify its expectations based on societies embrace of technology.

Someone years ago discovered that in the world of media, if you discredit the messenger the message is lost / tarnished, a truism that we struggle with each day, the protections that we may put in place to prevent such events then get used by those who are actually guilty, balance is the key that all systems struggle with on a daily basis.
Not raising this as a pick, but the gag orders that can be put in place in the UK is strange to me but appears perfectly fine to the citizens, and I'm not even talking about the celebrities but actually the Judge who had his divorce subject to the gag. It's an extreme form of media control.

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