racko
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Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:36 pm

Reuters flash.

No matter what you think about Apple, he surely is a giant and has done a lot for the industry.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:49 pm

So the question is who will be "the decider" from now on at Apple? Steve was a man of absolute power and discerning vision on how products needed to be. He is/was part of the magic of Apple. Even after all the events with him over the recent years and his essentially careful "stepping away" from the helm of Apple I think this will have a big impact due to public and investor perception. He even had to come back and continue doing the launch events with his famous "one more thing", and when he did the stock got a bump.

Should be interesting tomorrow to watch the stock.

Edit to add:
Finally see it the general news:
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/...pple-steve-jobs-resigns/?iid=HP_LN

Steve will stay on (has requested to at least and I can't imagine the board will do something different) as Chairman.

Tugg

[Edited 2011-08-24 15:59:19]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Ken777
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:13 pm

Jobs is staying on a Chairman of the Board and will continue as an employee.

If the stock takes a dive it will be a great busing opportunity - the iPhone 5 is about ready (with expanded carriers), iPad3 is on the way, iOS5 ready to blow the doors off, some new Mac that redefines the Mac.

I don't see Apple slowing down for years. Tim Cook is outstanding. Jonathan Ive is a genius. And they are pretty representative of Apple's talent.

As for Steve Jobs, one can only wish him all the very best. His achievements are legendary and will be an example for others for generations. Hopefully he will have a long time now to enjoy his family and friends.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:02 am

With Steve being on medical leave so much recently and fighting some serious health issues, I certainly wish him all the best. I truly hope that his reasons for resigning are not due to unexpectedly worse health conditions, but I fear that is the most realistic explanation.

Hopes and prayers that as more news comes out, that turns out not to be the case.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:08 am

It was obvious that this day would come, but it's still a pivotal event nevertheless.

Given that Steve Jobs is not sharing any details about his health, we can only hope for the best for him personally.

As for Apple, Tim Cook is obviously a fully capable successor. We'll have to see how well he and the rest of the crew will do in the long run with less or no input from Jobs, but it is quite possible that Jobs' essential way of thinking has taken root in the company as such.

Jobs has definitely transformed computing as we know it – and more than once at that. He has never shied away from controversial decisions, and whatever one thinks of the results, his total impact is difficult to overstate.

He has always attacked technology from its human perspective – and as a technology-minded guy I know how far away that really is from the approach most of his peers instinctively take.

Most people who know about human beings understand nothing about technology, and vice versa. That is the primary crux about information technology.

Jobs was one of the first computer entrepreneurs to not just have an instinctive understanding of where the problem was with technology, but also how to bridge that gap. And how to do it with style and taste at that.

And the oddest thing from my point of view is how unique he remained with this approach, how stubbornly almost all of his competitors insisted on ignoring his approach, most driven by a fundamental lack of understanding why it even mattered (such as most tech guys), the rest apparently because they considered Jobs' sometimes obsessive insistence on certain qualities in his products excessive and pointlessly expensive.

But it seems that more and more people actually like products which are constructed and designed with somebody giving a damn about what their experience with the product will be, rather than just dumping a chunk of technology in their lap whose primary property was its bottom-level price with little or no regard to the human beings having to deal with it.

I'm wondering whether Jobs and Apple will remain a one-off eccentricity in the greater scheme of things and if things will eventually fall back to the dull and purely money-dominated default that's dominating the rest of the industry.

Or if the inspiration may yet catch on to take really wild, inspired risks.

Time will tell, but it's been a hell of a ride so far.
 
Okie
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:16 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 3):
With Steve being on medical leave so much recently and fighting some serious health issues, I certainly wish him all the best. I truly hope that his reasons for resigning are not due to unexpectedly worse health conditions, but I fear that is the most realistic explanation


I would have to agree.
There are just too many good things coming down the pike right now for apple.
On the other hand maybe he feels he needs to step aside and let someone else guide Apple through the next advancement in marketing, oh and technology.

Okie
 
Acheron
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:58 am

Quoting racko (Thread starter):

No matter what you think about Apple, he surely is a giant and has done a lot for the industry.

He certainly did a lot for turning Apple around and stablishing some design ideas that have a spread to other companies and area.

I'm just not fond of the side effect of that, which is the cultist-like followers he and Apple have garnered lately.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:32 am

It is unfortunate that the ongoing health problems of Steve Jobs means he has to take a much smaller part in the company he has been such an important part of. There is no doubt he is one of the greatest and most innovative business leaders we have ever seen and without the terrible flaws of some of the past ones like Henry Ford and Andrew Carnegie. There is also his involvement in Pixar, changing the way and style of animated movies to new levels.

Hopefully his spirit will be around for years, in person or in those who are around them to continue to make user friendly products that others cannot really get close to doing as well.
 
Ken777
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
And the oddest thing from my point of view is how unique he remained with this approach, how stubbornly almost all of his competitors insisted on ignoring his approach, most driven by a fundamental lack of understanding why it even mattered

The best comparison I can think of is Lee Iacocca after the competition came out with their minivans. He said, "We showed them how to do it and they still couldn't get it right."

I believe the tablet has been a pretty blunt lesson for the competition - especially HP. They have learned that there is more to Apple's success than a fast design. That realization might carry over to others in the tech industry. There are a lot of CEOs who have been given a pretty stiff lesson on how to do it by Jobs. What is going to be interesting is how vigorous their shareholders push CEOs to improve.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 7):
I'm just not fond of the side effect of that, which is the cultist-like followers he and Apple have garnered lately.

Let's be honest, companies like Dell really don't have "fans" of their designs. There is real nothing special about those designs - they take what the engineers and industrial designer come up with. How can one really be a fan of dull.

Fortunately there have always been consumers who go nuts over design. Some classics of pure design stand out - like the original Coke bottle.


What Apple has done is lead the industry in the area of design - hardware and software - and the consumer has responded with their wallets. It is not a cult, it is just a very strong reaction from consumers.



Klaus, thanks for posting the link. People looking at it should remember that Steve Jobs gave that address after being diagnosed with, and having some very challenging surgery for his cancer. Many consider it one of the greatest commencement addresses ever.
 
Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:46 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
What is going to be interesting is how vigorous their shareholders push CEOs to improve.

The sad thing is that most shareholders push their CEOs for short-term results, and short-term results are all they get in return, in many cases sacrificing long-term perspectives at the same time.

Steve Jobs has struggled hard for it but finally achieved the patience of his shareholders (in his second run at the top of the company – yes, he wasn't actually CEO the first time) to pursue long-term goals with all the expenses and delays required.

And they've been rewarded handsomely.

I think the short-term thinking of investors is as much to blame for the sorry state of much of our product culture (or lack thereof) as small-minded CEOs themselves.

The stupidity of greed has ruined many inspired ideas; Escaping that has been one of Jobs' greater achievements; The ironic thing is that greed usually causes its own frustration.

A short-sighted investor will at best end up with the small fry.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
Klaus, thanks for posting the link. People looking at it should remember that Steve Jobs gave that address after being diagnosed with, and having some very challenging surgery for his cancer. Many consider it one of the greatest commencement addresses ever.

I couldn't have introduced it any better:

Steve Jobs' 2005 Stanford Commencement Address - YouTube
 
Flighty
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
I'm just not fond of the side effect of that, which is the cultist-like followers he and Apple have garnered lately.

That is entirely understandable.... to be honest, neither am I. I am a longtime Apple fan but just without all the hoopla, SJ is a man who did something good. He was doing great stuff in 1996-2003. For me as an Apple watcher, that was a magical time. But now, (when AAPL is popular), it's mainstream, and in terms of innovation this story is probably over.

SJ will go down in history as a great executive, and great founder, and not quite a Thomas Edison... but something very close to that. He's probably the Henry Ford of our era.
 
Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:14 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
But now, (when AAPL is popular), it's mainstream, and in terms of innovation this story is probably over.

People have already said that after the iMac.

And after the iPod.

And after the iPhone.

And now after the iPad.

But I guess that theory will indeed turn out to be correct eventually...!
 
bill142
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:43 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):

As for Apple, Tim Cook is obviously a fully capable successor.

And despite Apples unwillingness to release details of their succession planning, the obvious successor.
 
Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:32 am

Quoting bill142 (Reply 12):
And despite Apples unwillingness to release details of their succession planning, the obvious successor.

They didn't release these plans explicitly to the public, but anyone could clearly see it would be Cook from how they positioned him in recent months:

Daring Fireball: On Succeeding Steve Jobs (July 22nd, 2011)

Quote:
Cook has so much credibility on Wall Street that effectively, the board might have to offer him the job. Perhaps this entire article could be replaced with, “Look, it’s going to be Tim Cook, and that’s that.”


[Edited 2011-08-25 03:33:54]
 
Springbok747
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:05 am

He's presided over an increasingly greedy company, always ready to screw the last cent from his customers and suppliers, and always the first to sue its competition into submission.

For that reason (among many others) I have never owned an Apple product..and probably never will.

Wish him all the best though, I have nothing against him personally..just can't stand his company and his cult-like passionate fans.
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Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:13 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 14):
He's presided over an increasingly greedy company, always ready to screw the last cent from his customers and suppliers, and always the first to sue its competition into submission.

For that reason (among many others) I have never owned an Apple product..and probably never will.

Apple makes products which a progressively increasing number of people perceives as good value for money.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 14):
Wish him all the best though, I have nothing against him personally..just can't stand his company and his cult-like passionate fans.

And, remarkably, that positive judgment of Apple's products appears to actually survive the purchase.

How does that constitute "greed"? Most people call that well-earned success.

[Edited 2011-08-25 04:14:18]
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:03 pm

Steve Jobs resigned as CEO of Apple in a letter to the board.

A letter? What? There's no app for that?
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rfields5421
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:41 pm

I hope his health allows him to enjoy a long retirement, but...

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
somebody giving a damn about what their experience with the product will be, rather than just dumping a chunk of technology in their lap

Are you talking about Steve Jobs?

Because dumping a chunk of technology on the consumer and telling them "take what I give you and like it" is his entire design concept. He is the champion of "I know how you should use technology. Not you, not anyone else. My way or the highway."

Now I will certainly agree he has been much better than anyone else in giving folks a relatively bug free, easy to use, easy to understand product. He has held the line against the bean counters for years on demanding his products meet a certain quality, higher than any competitor.

And his 'arrogance' has paid off. Consumers are fed-up with incomplete products which provide less than promised functionality. The Apple product line is the best example of 'we will tell you how to live and run your life" and consumers are embracing that more and more. They want SOLUTIONS not gadgets. Apple currently delivers.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
I believe the tablet has been a pretty blunt lesson for the competition - especially HP. They have learned that there is more to Apple's success than a fast design.

Apple has provided those lessons in the past, but the tablet is their best 'out front' product. One which they got to market before the competition and which defines the product. Even more so than the iPod and music players.

I was absolutely shocked when my minimally technical sister recently bought an iPad2 - and how well it has worked for her. If Apple can capture her business and imagination - they have a winner.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
What Apple has done is lead the industry in the area of design - hardware and software - and the consumer has responded with their wallets. It is not a cult, it is just a very strong reaction from consumers.

Jobs has always insisted on complete solutions. Not just hardware, not just software, but an integration - and a strong commitment to quality. Sure Apple has their share of devices with problems, but side by side - I don't think any technology company has achieved near the record of reliability in their hardware, and the lack of software compatability issues.

People LIKE 'turn it on and it works' technology.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:57 pm

So much talent and dedication being wasted by a terrible disease. Sad, sad story.

I hope he sticks around for as long as possible.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:11 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
somebody giving a damn about what their experience with the product will be, rather than just dumping a chunk of technology in their lap

Are you talking about Steve Jobs?

Because dumping a chunk of technology on the consumer and telling them "take what I give you and like it" is his entire design concept. He is the champion of "I know how you should use technology. Not you, not anyone else. My way or the highway."
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
People LIKE 'turn it on and it works' technology.

"Turn it on and it works" doesn't look like a particularly unreasonable imposition to me...!   

Particularly compared to the usual exerience of being left alone with computing equipment with basically requires the user to take IT administration lessons.
 
Asturias
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:44 pm

So long Steve, and thanks for all the fish!

(well he's just stepping down as CEO, still going to be chairman of the board, which means he's basically in control - just not in day to day ops)

Under Tim Cook, Apple has become very IKEA in production strategy, "Design and quality of Sweden - made in China" vs. "Designed by Apple in California - made in China".

Increases margins, oh yes. Increases shareholder value? Not really, since Apple doesn't pay dividends.

asturias
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NoWorries
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:46 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 14):
He's presided over an increasingly greedy company, always ready to screw the last cent from his customers and suppliers, and always the first to sue its competition into submission.


I'm fairly agnostic when it comes to the whole apple vs "others" debates -- and they are definitely profit driven (capitalism be what it is) -- but in my limited experience with them I've never really seen the screw the last cent out of the customer phenomenon. My experience may be unique, but my daughter abused an iTouch pretty badly and yet ultimately Apple replaced for free when it got the white screen of death even though it had a dent, had gotten wet, and had a cracked screen. In the lessons not learned department, she then cracked the screen on an iPhone4 and again they replaced the whole unit for free. Now she does buy a fair amount from the Apple store but, but it still seems like savvy treatment of a loyal customer (my daughter being the loyal customer).
 
Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:09 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 20):
Increases margins, oh yes. Increases shareholder value? Not really, since Apple doesn't pay dividends.

Accumulating the value in the stock price effectively serves the same purpose, just without bleeding the value out of the company (instead transferring ownership from a selling stockholder to a buying one).

Dividends make sense if the company has no use for the money itself. Given the larger economic environment Apple is operating in, this would not be a good idea at this point.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:24 pm

I think the allure of Apple products started years ago with their "Computers for the rest of us" campaign. Simple to use, but always a bit slower than competing PC's for the same price.

No wonder Apple is a good choice for techies and fashionistas. There is a cache to the illuminated apple on their products.
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Ken777
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 16):
A letter? What? There's no app for that?

Of course, it's called Pages. $9.99 for the iPad - replaces Word for under $10.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 23):
No wonder Apple is a good choice for techies and fashionistas.

Talk to musicians who own studios It's not the glowing Apple on the side that counts for them, it's the quality of the product as well as the problems experienced with competitive products.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
Jobs has definitely transformed computing as we know it

Sure he has. Its called "marketing". Most of Apple's success is down to aggressive marketing. I have never seen the mainstream media write a news article that HTC/Samsung/LG/Nokia have a new phone on the market. Or a new tablet. You get tons of articles on Apple though.
HTC and Samsung have been having dual-core phones for months but you don't hear that on the news. You just watch the hype when iPhone 5 comes out. All because of marketing. Gotta give him credit for that!.
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Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:59 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 25):
Sure he has. Its called "marketing". Most of Apple's success is down to aggressive marketing.

And where is that "aggressive marketing"? I rarely see ads from Apple nor any other "marketing" activities. Actually, their marketing budget is comparatively tiny relative to their revenue.

I know it bugs the hell out of some people, but the greatest marketing tool Apple has in its arsenal is making people happy using their actual products.

The thing is just that that's actually the primary objective every manufacturer ought to live and work by. That's not "marketing", it's pure and simple obsession with the substance and quality of their actual products.

As it should be.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:26 pm

אני תומך בישראל
 
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OA260
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:32 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 2):
As for Steve Jobs, one can only wish him all the very best. His achievements are legendary and will be an example for others for generations. Hopefully he will have a long time now to enjoy his family and friends.

+1 I hope too that he enjoys his life and he has done a great job .

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 14):
For that reason (among many others) I have never owned an Apple product..and probably never will.

I buy Apple products because they are quality and do what I want them to do . iPhone 4/ iPad2 / iMac / Apple TV . Everything SYNCs and I like the design. If Apple make a product I don't like I don't buy it but so far Im very happy with the price I pay and the after care I receive. Ive only started to own Apple products since the launch of the first iPad last year.

As for ethics I guess half the stuff in our homes and work places would have to go for some reason or another. I personally think Apple are not that bad compared to others.
 
Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:07 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 27):
You mean making people happy..like this:

I and millions of other satisfied customers have our own experiences – no need for blog and forum posts cherry-picked to suit your predefined agenda.

With by now well over two hundred million Apple customers two things are obvious:

• By far most people like Apple's products and the service they get.

• With numbers like these, you will also have no trouble at all to find people who have been unlucky, people shilling for the competition (see your first link) and people blaming others for their own mistakes in abundance as well, even if they're just a tiny percentage overall.

By your posts, nobody should ever have bought a second Apple product after making the presumably horrible experiences you suggest. But few companies actually have as many and as satisfied repeat customers as Apple does.

So given these conflicting pieces of information and opinion, which one seems more plausible in the end?
 
Luftfahrer
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:42 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):

Putting aside the customer satisfaction question, have you read the article on how apple treats its own retail employees? This seemed more like a general thing than "cherry-picked" forum posts and blogs, as you put it, from a few disgruntled workers. I thought that telling people working at apple “should be looked at as an experience” was pretty arrogant. It's also this arrogance that has driven me away from buying their products. And, surprise, other manufacturers' devices work just fine. No such experiences:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Particularly compared to the usual exerience of being left alone with computing equipment with basically requires the user to take IT administration lessons.
'He resembled a pilot, which to a seaman is trustworthiness personified.' Joseph Conrad
 
elbandgeek
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:58 pm

He's gone. Good riddance. Now they can stop getting a free pass on everything they do and actually compete instead of ride one "innovation" from 5 years ago.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
And where is that "aggressive marketing"? I rarely see ads from Apple nor any other "marketing" activities. Actually, their marketing budget is comparatively tiny relative to their revenue.

And that is the point where all possible credibility you had is gone. You cannot turn on a TV without being bombarded by Apple ads. It's disgusting.
You have never in the entire time I've been on this board been willing to accept a single bit of criticism of Apple and you constantly bash any product that competes with them. You're a fanboy and your opinion doesn't matter.
 
Flighty
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:12 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 25):
You just watch the hype when iPhone 5 comes out. All because of marketing.

If by marketing, you mean market success, then yeah. But why is everybody buying iPhones? Partly because of word of mouth. A world without iPhone would be similar to our world in 2006. The pace of phone advancement was glacial!!! People wanted better an Steve engineered the ideal solution.

The conceptual proof is this. When Steve came out with iPhone, most analysts said it was stupid. Nobody except Steve had the dictator-like structure to even launch such a product against conventional wisdom. Today's smartphone industry can be ascribed to one guy. As can the windowed interface we're looking at. He invented neither -- he delivered, and specced out, both.

In that respect, not only the iPhone -- but all similar phones -- are his invention. One could also say MS Windows, Ubuntu and OSX are all largely Jobs' invention.

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 31):
He's gone. Good riddance. Now they can stop getting a free pass on everything they do and actually compete instead of ride one "innovation" from 5 years ago.

By merely "competing" ... I agree... Apple will be just another MBA fruit salad in a few years. A bunch of cube drones being led not by ideas, but by financial optimization.  

[Edited 2011-08-25 16:17:20]

[Edited 2011-08-25 16:26:03]
 
Ken777
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:19 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 25):
Sure he has. Its called "marketing".

Which is why the guy has his name on over 300 patients over the past 30 years.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...e-jobs-patents.html?ref=technology

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 30):
Putting aside the customer satisfaction question, have you read the article on how apple treats its own retail employees?

I spent a few years in retailing and, overall, I'm impressed with Apple's retailing organization.

If it is such a terrible place to work why is it always staffed by people who appear to be a lot more on the ball than most people working in retail?

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 31):
instead of ride one "innovation" from 5 years ago.

Innovation going back to the garage at Jobs' parents house. The past 5 years has just been the tablet/phone/touch era for Apple. The company was leading the way before then. Say back to the Apple I days.

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 31):
And that is the point where all possible credibility you had is gone. You cannot turn on a TV without being bombarded by Apple ads. It's disgusting.

Actually, I think it is more like each Apple ad is getting your attention - which is what ads are supposed to do.

They are certainly not on all the time, bombarding you with ads. They don't need to overspend on advertising as the ads they do run gets your attention.
 
Asturias
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:00 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
Accumulating the value in the stock price effectively serves the same purpose, just without bleeding the value out of the company (instead transferring ownership from a selling stockholder to a buying one).

No it doesn't, actually. Stock price gives a one-time payment that may or may not be in correlation with how much money a company is making. There can be no accumulation of value in the stock price, when a company stops growing, so does the stock price.

Dividends on the other hand, are a more sane and less voodoo-economic method of giving shareholders returns of their investment. They're only made when a company makes a profit and they are affected only by actual results of said company - not the whimsical and often extremely stupid recommendations of analysts.

Calling dividends "bleeding the value of a company" is most novel and certainly an inspired piece of propaganda/apologism for Apple.

Unless you think stock prices will always go up, you must think we are idiots. And if you do think stock prices will always go up.. well..

asturias
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Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:25 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
Unless you think stock prices will always go up, you must think we are idiots. And if you do think stock prices will always go up.. well..

Both dividends and an appreciating stock are fed by money that's actually being earned. With the stock price there's also speculative development, but that exists in dividend-paying stocks just as well and for very similar reasons.

When the company loses money or needs major investments, having the necessary funds directly at hand can make the difference between survival and bankruptcy (or a takeover). Paying dividends extracts funds from the company, which may be very difficult and/or inefficient to reverse especially in times of need.

There's just simply no magical difference between the two (well, possibly beyond taxation, depending on your local regulations): The company earns money, that money either stays in the company (and thus increaes the stock price) or it is turned out to the stockholders and the money bled out of the company deflates the stock price accordingly.

Both ways work, they just have certain different properties, both on the way up and on the way down.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:44 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
I'm impressed with Apple's retailing organization.

Yeah everyone should be, especially because the whole business strategy of Apple is to gradually produce better products forcing the Apple sheep.er..consumer to constantly pay more and more to buy the latest models.

The prime example of this is when Apple produced the first generation iPhone. It was lacking the most basic of features that even a Nokia phone from the mid 90s offered. These included forwarding an SMS message, copy-paste features, bad reception, no custom sounds for SMS and e-mails, video-recording, MMS, to name a few (Yes, I'm aware of the fact that Apple released updates correcting some of these at a later date). Was Apple not aware of these features or did they not have the technology to include them? No. They just prefer to constantly release updates and new versions to make the fanboys run out and buy them. Same with the iPad, the iPod etc. No wonder Apple is making money!
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AGM100
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:52 am

Quoting racko (Thread starter):
No matter what you think about Apple, he surely is a giant and has done a lot for the industry.

A amazing guy ... incredible . He deserves a break ... Apple will be fine .
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LAXintl
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:12 am

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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Tugger
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:32 am

The greatest thing he was able to do, was overrule the short term focus of shareholders and not give into the insanity of short term focused "shareholder value" and "quarterly returns". While it may seem like he didn't ignore those factors due the freight-train of success that Apple currently is, there was a lot of resistance early on. But because he was viewed as "the last chance" for the company and as one of its founders, its soul, he was able to impose his will and vision on the company which allowed for long term results and success. Something often lacking from most modern wall street darlings. Of course it was his excellent vision and eye for detail that made it a success, something that not many CEO's have (often because modern CEO's rise by mediocrity and not by excelling. Usually its the odd entrepreneur/founder that are the ones that excel beyond just "Wall Street results" a can lead companies with vision.).

Interesting thing I had forgotten about Steve Jobs and his time at Apple: He only earned $1 a year.

Quote:
Steve Jobs earned a $1 annual salary every year since he rejoined Apple in 1997. While many $1-a-year CEOs reap big back-end stock and options packages, Jobs was a financial ascetic: He collected no stock awards, no cash bonuses and no perks, even turning down a 401(k) match from Apple.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/26/technology/tim_cook_stock_bonus/

Tugg
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Ken777
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:16 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 34):
Stock price gives a one-time payment that may or may not be in correlation with how much money a company is making. There can be no accumulation of value in the stock price, when a company stops growing, so does the stock price.

The markets are open for selling as well as buying. If you get shares in a company that provides dividends then your share price is generally held back because the company is limiting funds for future growth to some degree.

Personally I would prefer a company that is delivering solid growth through R&D investments AND that is protecting the future with reserve funds. Apple is a classic example of building a war chest. They were able to bull their way through on the Nortel patents and still have a mountain of cash in order to pre-pay almost $4 Billion in components. They also had the funds to keep the company going full speed while the country was hit with the Great Recession.

The final point to consider is that Apple was pretty close to failing when Steve Jobs returned. It is not hard to understand a CEO who had a corporate near death experience to have a high priority in building long term protection in the form of solid cash reserves.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:02 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 38):

Ok that picture is crossing the line..those idiots at TMZ don't have a clue. Give the man some privacy FFS.
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Stabilator
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:55 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 41):

Agreed! While I'm not much of an Apple fanboy, that picture is crossing the line...give the man a break.
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LAXintl
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:47 am

He's a public figure, and seemingly out in public place.

Expecting anonymity, or somesort of exemption from being photographed is not realistic nor appropriate to the basic rights of others.
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Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:15 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 36):
The prime example of this is when Apple produced the first generation iPhone. It was lacking the most basic of features that even a Nokia phone from the mid 90s offered.

Features which were pretty much the most advanced ones these phones had. While they lacked almost all the features the iPhone made usable for the first time, which you've conveniently "forgotten" to mention, like full email, full web browsing, a full media player and so on, which superseded many of these "lacking" legacy features anyway.

Some people set the right priorities, some don't.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 36):
These included forwarding an SMS message, copy-paste features, bad reception, no custom sounds for SMS and e-mails, video-recording, MMS, to name a few (Yes, I'm aware of the fact that Apple released updates correcting some of these at a later date). Was Apple not aware of these features or did they not have the technology to include them? No. They just prefer to constantly release updates and new versions to make the fanboys run out and buy them. Same with the iPad, the iPod etc. No wonder Apple is making money!

That's a full load of rubbish. Feature upgrades came free for all iPhone users and continue to do so (my two-years-old iPhone 3GS is about to receive yet another free major OS upgrade with iOS 5 shortly). No need to "run out and buy them" whatsoever!

It seems you're so used to devices being orphaned right out of the gate that you didn't even consider the possibility that Apple might do this a little differently. Which is one of the reasons for their top-level user satisfaction.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 43):
He's a public figure, and seemingly out in public place.

Expecting anonymity, or somesort of exemption from being photographed is not realistic nor appropriate to the basic rights of others.

And expecting taste or class from some among "the public" is apparently not realistic either.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:22 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 39):
Interesting thing I had forgotten about Steve Jobs and his time at Apple: He only earned $1 a year.

He just makes $1 per year since 1997, but for many years he took a very large salary and from the founding had a huge chunk of Apple stock.

He got his billions out of Apple. His current Apple stock is worth over 2 billion dollars. He also got paid a few hundred million to come back to Apple. Don't worry about his checkbook.

He also used to own 50.1% of the computer graphics business at LucasFilms - named Pixar. In 2006 Disney bought him out - and he now is the single largest shareholder in Disney. His stock worth about $4 billion today.

His total holdings are worth an estimated 8 to 8.3 billion.

But at least he is worth a lot more than Rupert Murdock - and no one can argue that Apple is not a healthier, more moral business than News Corp.
 
Asturias
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:32 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 35):
Both dividends and an appreciating stock are fed by money that's actually being earned. With the stock price there's also speculative development, but that exists in dividend-paying stocks just as well and for very similar reasons.

Speculative development is finite and will, by it's virtue, always crash because it's speculative and one can't always be right.

Furthermore, when the time comes that Apple stops growing, then there's no reason to buy AAPL, and people will need to sell - because stocks that don't pay dividends are worth less than toilet paper (since they aren't physical)

Again; unless you are trying to convince anyone here that growth is forever, well have I got news for you.

However a "stagnated" company, can earn money - but if they don't pay dividends, they're worthless.

ast.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:37 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 45):
He got his billions out of Apple. His current Apple stock is worth over 2 billion dollars. He also got paid a few hundred million to come back to Apple. Don't worry about his checkbook.

Sad to see a person in such bad physical condition. He looks skeletal and barely able to stand on his own two legs/feet.
The money is good but it looks like he may not have much time left to enjoy whatever money can bring him.

 
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Klaus
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:42 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 45):
He just makes $1 per year since 1997, but for many years he took a very large salary

That is news to me. Since he's been on his $1 salary since his return to Apple, that would need to have been before he left in 1985.

So how much was it, and when?

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 45):
and from the founding had a huge chunk of Apple stock.

No. He sold all but one share when he left in 1985. (Almost) all Apple shares he owns now he acquired through stock option grants following his return.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 45):
He got his billions out of Apple.

No, most of his wealth came from his sale of Pixar to Disney (at the time worth over $7 Billion).

Quoting Asturias (Reply 46):
Speculative development is finite

So are dividends, obviously.

And I have made quite clear above that the price of a stock consists of more than just its speculative value – particularly in case of companies with extensive material and immaterial assets which are (almost) always the lower boundary for the stock price.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 46):
and will, by it's virtue, always crash because it's speculative and one can't always be right.

Even when just looking at the speculative portion of the share price (which is not what this discussion is actually about!) , that is still a nonsensical conclusion, since "not being right" does in no way equate an inherent "crash" of the stock price; In most cases the decline of a company is exhibited by a slow bleeding of the stock's price, only sometimes punctuated by sudden losses (which often coincide with larger market movements).

Quoting Asturias (Reply 46):
Furthermore, when the time comes that Apple stops growing, then there's no reason to buy AAPL, and people will need to sell - because stocks that don't pay dividends are worth less than toilet paper (since they aren't physical)

Apple is just one of many growing stocks which don't pay dividends.

And a non-dividend stock will cease to appreciate primarily when the company stops making profit, at which point a normally dividend-paying counterpart would obviously also stop paying dividends.

If such a lack of profits should persist for a longer time and there was no positive outlook either, the stock value would probably recede in both cases.

Both stocks would still contain a proportional share of the remaining assets, however, so the non-dividend stock would have a correspondingly higher socket price than the dividend stock, since the accumulated assets are higher.

The company with the higher amount of (particularly liquid!) assets will in such a troubled situation have a much higher capability of innovating out of the crisis than the one that's already turned out most of its profits to its shareholders: The latter may need to issue new shares (diluting the existing ones), rack up its debt (thus creating dependencies and potentially dangerous obligations) or sell profitable assets (hurting future profitability) to survive while the non-dividend company can stay completely independent, debt-free and in possession of all profitable assets.

Both approaches are viable, both are being used right now, neither is failsafe and neither is inherently more beneficial to the stockholders on the bottom line.

How well either company will develop will in either case still depend on how fortunate the circumstances are and how capable its crew is.

The question of dividends or not, however, is next to irrelevant in the larger scheme of things, even for the stockholders.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 46):
Again; unless you are trying to convince anyone here that growth is forever,

I have done no such thing.

You are however overlooking that a (more or less sizeable) portion of a stock price is directly derived from the accumulated assets of the company (material + immaterial ones). Only what's beyond that can be called "speculative" (even if much of it is usually not all that speculative but simply forward-looking to reasonably expectable developments).

Quoting Asturias (Reply 46):
However a "stagnated" company, can earn money - but if they don't pay dividends, they're worthless.

No, you're wrong there. I think you just don't understand a few fundamental mechanisms.

A stagnating company can only pay dividends as long as it is still making profits of some kind. If the company is not making profits, it's irrelevant whether it's gaining market share or increasing revenue (in that case with too little margin).

The growth of the company and the growth of its assets are two different (if usually related) things. A company can be stagnant or even shrinking and still make profits.

And a profitable company can turn out these profits through dividends, which keeps the company's remaining value unchanged (simplified).

Or it can accumulate the profits in a growth of the company's value which will usually be reflected in a rising stock price.

All that even if the actual revenue and profits of the company are flat and the company as such is not growing – that is the difference to growth as it is usually understood!

Examples:

Microsoft's share price is on a downward trajectory, but they are paying dividends. Overall the shareholders could live with that so far as long as their total investment has a positive develoment.

Apple's share price is on an upward trajectory, but they are not paying dividends. Overall the shareholders could live with that so far as long as their total investment has a positive development.

For the shareholders, only the total development of stock price plus accumulated dividends is really relevant, so no fundamental difference between the two, only a gradual one.


Microsoft's revenue and profits are overall not growing all that much any more and their market share is very high in the PC area but almost everywhere (including the PC market) it is receding. Overall outlook is stable to negative.

Apple's revenue and profits are strongly growing and they are successfully branching out into multiple markets. Their market shares are low to moderate in the PC market, a decent-sized minority in the phone market and dominant in two other mobile markets (the iPod and the iPad market). Overall outlook is growing to rapidly growing.

The future outlook is to some extent priced into the stocks already, so as usual, speculating with stocks is one part betting on the success of a company and one part believing to know better than most other investors.
 
Stabilator
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RE: Steve Jobs Resigns As CEO Of Apple

Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:42 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 43):

Oh I know, but it's still a low blow photographing him in such condition. Btw I had no idea he was that bad.
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