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fxramper
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Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:03 am

This is disgusting. How many of you are still looking for work? Thank the President and the Labor Department.   

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...greements-protect-illegal-workers/
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:46 am

Watch yo' mouth, fx, don't you know the man is an economic genius? Solyndra, the California-based solar tech outfit Obama secured over a half-billion dollars in stimulus funds, has shut its doors. A brilliant coup! It cost him not a dime (who care about taxpayer funds anyway), but got him over $150K in campaign donations from just 2 of Solyndra's backers.

$20 million in taxpayer funds to "weatherize" homes in Washington. 14 administrator jobs created to oversee the weatherization of three (3) homes. Let's say 10 workers were involved in actually doing the work, that's $830,000 per person!, and nearly $7 million per house. Now THAT is a high quality job! Brilliant!

And with his Dream Act via Regulation policy, he is encouraging more people to come over the border. C'mon in! If someone does not treat you as a full citizen, you can complain about him, file suit, and even get a back-dated work permit! Why didn't we think of that? Our unemployment is so low right now that of course we need to encourage a labor black market.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
gigneil
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:51 am

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
How many of you are still looking for work?

Uh huh. And how many of you would work at Taco Bell, scrub bar-room floors, or really anything for minimum wage  


The answer: almost nobody. Which is the same reason Bush tried to give all the illegals citizenship before Texas through San Diego all revolted.

NS
 
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fxramper
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:54 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
Uh huh. And how many of you would work at Taco Bell, scrub bar-room floors, or really anything for minimum wage

Not just Taco Bell. Who do you think is making all the recent Wall Street decisions? Maybe Obama is gonna talk about this when Boehner lets him give his job speech. I won't hold my breath.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:59 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
Uh huh. And how many of you would work at Taco Bell, scrub bar-room floors, or really anything for minimum wage

Dude! We've all done it! When I was a teenager, I sacked groceries, cleared brush, poured concrete, washed dishes, cleaned bathrooms and food preparation areas in a deli, and stacked store shelves, all for minimum wage - $3.25 at the time. We've (most) all been there. Those are normal, entry level jobs for teens who want to earn a little money for gas and to take a girl out on a date once in a while.

Now teen unemployment is at 25% - in some places as high as 50%. The labor force is already here.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
san747
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:30 am

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
This is disgusting.

Yeah, we all know illegal immigrants aren't people anyway. Why should we give them any sort of protections?  

I've never understood the "they took awr jobs!" argument. It's not like jobs are just hanging there of a tree to be "taken." The jobs are being GIVEN to them illegally and for one obvious reason that no one ever seems to realize- they are willing to work harder for less money.

If I had a nickel for every conservative poster on this board who says we've priced ourselves out of the marketplace with unions and their demands for reasonable wages and benefits that cause companies to outsource labor overseas, and that we shouldn't blame the companies for employing the much cheaper labor, I'd be chillin' with Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerburg right now.

The situation with illegal immigrant labor in this country is exactly the same in every way. Conservatives should be praising American employers for being so savvy in their cost-saving measures!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Those are normal, entry level jobs for teens who want to earn a little money for gas and to take a girl out on a date once in a while.

Agreed. I've had a job or two like that myself. But would an adult, maybe an out-of-work professional do those kinds of jobs? Until that answer becomes yes, the argument that immigrants are "taking" our jobs is a red herring. The reality of the situation is they are being GIVEN jobs we have demonstrated (by our inaction) that we don't want.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 3):

Not just Taco Bell. Who do you think is making all the recent Wall Street decisions?

Ummm, probably US citizens? What does that mean?
Scotty doesn't know...
 
Superfly
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:32 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
Uh huh. And how many of you would work at Taco Bell, scrub bar-room floors, or really anything for minimum wage
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Dude! We've all done it! When I was a teenager, I sacked groceries, cleared brush, poured concrete, washed dishes, cleaned bathrooms and food preparation areas in a deli, and stacked store shelves, all for minimum wage - $3.25 at the time. We've (most) all been there. Those are normal, entry level jobs for teens who want to earn a little money for gas and to take a girl out on a date once in a while.

Now teen unemployment is at 25% - in some places as high as 50%. The labor force is already here.

  
Spot on! My first job was at Taco Bell when I was in high school.
I have friends & relatives that have children that are now teenagers and none of them have jobs. The jobs that we had as teenagers are no long available for teenagers today. You go to a fast food restaurant and its most likely illegals and sadly, senior citizens.

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):

To make matters worse, Obama and his attorney general Eric Holder is suing as many states as possible if they enforce the federal immigration laws that the federal government refuses to enforce. It's so blatantly obvious that Obama and his people has contempt for the American people.
Bring back the Concorde
 
seb146
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:53 am

Quoting san747 (Reply 5):
I've never understood the "they took awr jobs!" argument. It's not like jobs are just hanging there of a tree to be "taken." The jobs are being GIVEN to them illegally and for one obvious reason that no one ever seems to realize- they are willing to work harder for less money.

It is pure capitalism at is best! Get the most labor for the lowest price. It is what the right-wing wants EXACTLY and they are screaming about how horrible it is. Do they really want to pay people $10 an hour or more and possibly benefits? No. That goes against capitalism. Cheap labor. That is why they love exporting jobs to China, Indonesia, India, and MEXICO! If right-wingers hate the "illegals" taking our jobs, go after the real enemy: CORPORATIONS!!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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2707200X
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:41 am

How come illegal immigration is now a big issue now that Obama is the president? This is a selective outrage at this administration. Where was the outrage at Bush was in office or when Reagan granted amnesty?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
It's so blatantly obvious that Obama and his people has contempt for the American people.

Ran out of good arguments?
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
Superfly
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:48 am

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 8):
How come illegal immigration is now a big issue now that Obama is the president? This is a selective outrage at this administration. Where was the outrage at Bush was in office or when Reagan granted amnesty?

It's been an ongoing issue for over 20 years.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:34 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
It is pure capitalism at is best! Get the most labor for the lowest price. It is what the right-wing wants EXACTLY and they are screaming about how horrible it is. Do they really want to pay people $10 an hour or more and possibly benefits? No. That goes against capitalism. Cheap labor. That is why they love exporting jobs to China, Indonesia, India, and MEXICO! If right-wingers hate the "illegals" taking our jobs, go after the real enemy: CORPORATIONS!!

Huuu boy.  

A capitalist will pay the lowest price AVAILABLE. Let's say there was no illegal immigrant problem, that the border was effectively shut down. There would be a relative shortage of labor available for those entry-level jobs, and they will not be able to find as many people willing to work for $5-7 per hour (if any). The cost will have to come up a bit until an equilibrium is reached.

And guess what - we capitalists don't mind! If that was the situation, we would adapt - we might have to bump up the price of what we are selling, but that's OK because on average the population is getting better wages.

Don't you find it mildly ironic that it is the right (evil capitalists) that wants to stop illegal immigration and undermining of our labor market, and it is the left that wants as many poor people as possible in the country to create a cheap labor glut, keeping unemployment in that sector high and wages low? When you think about it philosophically, you understand immediately why the left does that, but I doubt you'll get it.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:02 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
And guess what - we capitalists don't mind! If that was the situation, we would adapt - we might have to bump up the price of what we are selling, but that's OK because on average the population is getting better wages.

It's funny, conservatives scream about unionized labor increasing costs and that companies can't tolerate higher wages. Yet, here you claim that capitalists can adapt to higher wages and labor costs. So which is it?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Don't you find it mildly ironic that it is the right (evil capitalists) that wants to stop illegal immigration and undermining of our labor market

Except the right actively supports companies shipping jobs overseas to children who work in sweat shops making far less than $1/hr.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Dude! We've all done it! When I was a teenager, I sacked groceries, cleared brush, poured concrete, washed dishes, cleaned bathrooms and food preparation areas in a deli, and stacked store shelves, all for minimum wage - $3.25 at the time. We've (most) all been there. Those are normal, entry level jobs for teens who want to earn a little money for gas and to take a girl out on a date once in a while.


I worked at McDonalds. It sucked. I thought that working at a grocery store would be better and it REALLY sucked. I went back to McDonalds. I did a bunch of crappy jobs when I was young. I was even replaced by illegals once. I was being paid minimum wage at a green house (mom and pop kind of place) and one day we were told we were being replaced by people who would work for less money. I assumed they were illegals because they were working for less than minimum wage and none of them spoke English.

Quoting san747 (Reply 5):
But would an adult, maybe an out-of-work professional do those kinds of jobs? Until that answer becomes yes, the argument that immigrants are "taking" our jobs is a red herring. The reality of the situation is they are being GIVEN jobs we have demonstrated (by our inaction) that we don't want.

When a place is paying you below minimum wage and most likely under the table you are not likely to take the job if you are legit. If you are an illegal who are you going to complain to?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
If right-wingers hate the "illegals" taking our jobs, go after the real enemy: CORPORATIONS!!


The business that I have known of that hire illegals are not large corporations they are small "mom and pop" places that fly under the radar so to speak. I am sure some big businesses involved to, but they alone are not the only guilty party.

Over the last 11 years I have been asking my students how many of them work and the number gets fewer and fewer. My observation is that many of the students have the mindset that they worth more than they are, they want to be paid top wages, but they have no work experience. I tell them you have to start at the bottom and work your way up.
Three years ago I had a kid moan and groan that he couldn't find a job. I asked him if he tried the McDonalds up the street. He said that he wouldn't work in a fast food place. I said "I worked at McDonalds when I was your age; are you saying you are better than me". He got a job at the McDonalds. He is still there and is working his way through college. He always has a smile on his face when I stop in there.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
You go to a fast food restaurant and its most likely illegals and sadly, senior citizens.


In the heartland of America you don't see that too often.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
windy95
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:49 pm

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
This is disgusting. How many of you are still looking for work?



You must be a racist by starting this post....

Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
Uh huh. And how many of you would work at Taco Bell, scrub bar-room floors, or really anything for minimum wage



This argument is old and tiring..How many people on unemployment will take these jobs if they had a choice..The available job or no unemployment. We would kill two birds with one stone. Lower unemployment and the the removing of the cost of supporting the illegals. Would save us Billions.

Quoting san747 (Reply 5):
Yeah, we all know illegal immigrants aren't people anyway. Why should we give them any sort of protections?



We will protect them all the way back to their country of origin where they can then attempt to come here by legal means.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
It is pure capitalism at is best! Get the most labor for the lowest price. It is what the right-wing wants EXACTLY and they are screaming about how horrible it is.



By following the laws of this country...

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 8):
How come illegal immigration is now a big issue now that Obama is the president? This is a selective outrage at this administration. Where was the outrage at Bush was in office or when Reagan granted amnesty



Where have you been??? Who do you think stopped Bush from passing an amnesty bill with Sen Shamnesty Graham.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Huuu boy.

A capitalist will pay the lowest price AVAILABLE.



Good post


So if the feds do not follow the laws of the land that are on the books now why then should any of us follow any rules. Why should I not be able to cheat on my taxes or invade my neighbors property and build an extension on it. After all we are all entitled on this planet right?? We are all entitled to plunder the good ole USA any way we want to. So why should any of us Follow them. Let us all start making our own interpretation to the laws and have a free for all. Let us let every President do whatever the hell they want and pass little obscure regulations in the middle of the night. I cannot even believe for a minute that this a left or a right issue but it is. it is about vote pandering and cheap slave labor...disgusting.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:25 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):

It's funny, conservatives scream about unionized labor increasing costs and that companies can't tolerate higher wages. Yet, here you claim that capitalists can adapt to higher wages and labor costs. So which is it?

If the MARKET demands higher wages, because of supply and demand, that's fine. But when externalities force an increase in wages that is not justified by supply and demand (such as union demands to be paid $30/hour when there are thousands who would sign up for $25), that results in higher unemployment. That's the way the machine works.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
Except the right actively supports companies shipping jobs overseas to children who work in sweat shops making far less than $1/hr.

Business is business. When you operate a single business, you are competing with others in your industry and have a fiduciary responsibility to your shareholders to use every means at your disposal to navigate among the various options available to you to keep your costs competitive, within an industry which you do not control on a macro level. Whether you are a right-leaning company like Gibson, or a left-leaning company like GE, you do what you have to do within the limits of what's allowable. GE has been a rabid Obama-supporter, and has shipped out to China some 25% of it's US employee base in the past 10 years. Gibson got shut down by the Federal government, ironically, for having raw materials brought in from India unprocessed, so that they could do the finishing work using American workers. What GE did was fine under this administration - indeed Obama named him chairman of the Council on Jobs and Competitiveness and of the President's Economic Recovery Advisory Board. How does that fit in with your statement?

If I headed up a company like GE, I would love to be able to announce that I will not outsource any business to China. They are our economic rivals, and giving China our manufacturing base with the accompanying knowledge transfer) is no different than if Toyota hired Ford to build the Prius, or if Coca-Cola asked PepsiCo to manufacture Coke's syrup. It's just dumb. I might buy and sell goods with China, but my manufacturing would stay in my pocket. But guess what - if I did that, I would be a a cost disadvantage to my competitors. Maybe I can convince my customers that my product is worth the extra cost, because of its American original and high quality, like Gibson did. That would be great if it worked, it's not always easy to do.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
The business that I have known of that hire illegals are not large corporations they are small "mom and pop" places that fly under the radar so to speak. I am sure some big businesses involved to, but they alone are not the only guilty party.

You are probably very right on that score. Personally all the illegals I've known were employed by small business or simply private individuals.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
Three years ago I had a kid moan and groan that he couldn't find a job. I asked him if he tried the McDonalds up the street. He said that he wouldn't work in a fast food place. I said "I worked at McDonalds when I was your age; are you saying you are better than me". He got a job at the McDonalds. He is still there and is working his way through college. He always has a smile on his face when I stop in there.

Congrats on having been able to nudge this kid in the right direction and teach him something real.

The first time I went 'on-the'clock', earning $3.25 an hour, by the end of the first day I had earned maybe $20, I remember thinking, "holy crap that's hard work!" You learn the value of a dollar. It's not something that you just ask your parents for - it represents sweat. I remember very well my first day at the job (sacking groceries), hustling from lane to lane, running out to the parking lot to bring back shopping carts, running for price checks, and after a while, feeling tired like I might have been working all day, I looked at my watch and realized that I had only been working for an hour.

But guess what, I was happy for that job. That's what generated my car money and allowed me to go out on a date on occasion - and eventually get laid. The start of my sex life was that job. It also motivated me to keep in school, with the knowledge that I wanted a better paying job. Just that menial grocery sacking job showed me that other people in the store were earning more than me because they knew more - accounting, or management or a particular skill like the butcher. When I spent a summer clearing brush, pouring concrete and landscaping, the guy who owned the place was a wealthy businessman - He'd be on his porch drinking Bloody Marys while I sweated - I wanted to be like him - the guy with the money to hire other people to do the hard work, and for that I knew I needed to get educated.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this experience - probably every American older than 40 or 50 has had pretty much exactly that experience.

By screwing up teenagers' jobs prospects, by allowing the black market on low-skill labor, and seeing the rise in teenage unemployment, those lessons are now NOT being learned. I had an intern this summer - he left just 2 weeks ago. What a whiny little cuss he was. But by the end he started to understand the work needed to pay for the parties that he was constantly talking about. The problem is that he is already 21 years old. He should have learned that at 16!
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
windy95
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:42 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
By screwing up teenagers' jobs prospects

Unemployment among teenagers is huge these days...And let us not forget the housing and roofing jobs that they are doing now. So that old they are doing jobs we will not do is crap.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:01 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
But when externalities force an increase in wages that is not justified by supply and demand (such as union demands to be paid $30/hour when there are thousands who would sign up for $25), that results in higher unemployment.

Having national borders and laws preventing immigrants from entering the U.S. are externalities as well that have nothing to do with natural supply and demand and distort the labor market.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Business is business.

Then you should have no problem with businesses hiring illegal immigrants since as you say business is business.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):

Having national borders and laws preventing immigrants from entering the U.S. are externalities as well that have nothing to do with natural supply and demand and distort the labor market.

A nation cannot function if there is a sub-class of people who live outside the law, and cannot control immigration. Otherwise a perfectly good economy collapses if the crappy economy next door simply lets all its poor people go elsewhere. We have to be willing to do that within the country, like between states, but not for other countries. You sound like one of those 'No Borders' radicals.

Any system must operate, as freely as possible, within its own constraints (walls, if you like). You can do what you like within your own house, but you have to conform to certain rules when dealing with houses around you, and you must ask permission to enter someone else's house - and he is not required to let you in.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
Then you should have no problem with businesses hiring illegal immigrants since as you say business is business.

If a law says that it is illegal, then it is illegal, and ALL businesses must be made to comply. The problem comes when some companies get away with doing something illegal when others try to comply with the law. Business does not mean a free-for-all. The most basic purpose of a government is to establish a level playing ground for everyone to play in, establish the rules of the game (especially the most important one - contract law), and umpires to catch and punish players who don't play by the rules.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:51 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
A nation cannot function if there is a sub-class of people who live outside the law, and cannot control immigration. Otherwise a perfectly good economy collapses if the crappy economy next door simply lets all its poor people go elsewhere. We have to be willing to do that within the country, like between states, but not for other countries.

I don't disagree, but my point still remains that it distorts the labor market just like unions do.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
You can do what you like within your own house, but you have to conform to certain rules when dealing with houses around you, and you must ask permission to enter someone else's house - and he is not required to let you in.

But apparently, my neighbor can spew pollution into my home since conservatives (like you) are constantly complaining about EPA regulations.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
The most basic purpose of a government is to establish a level playing ground for everyone to play in

But that's not really how conservatives want it to work. They want those with the most money to establish the playing field and that's exactly what we have seen.
 
seb146
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
The business that I have known of that hire illegals are not large corporations they are small "mom and pop" places that fly under the radar so to speak. I am sure some big businesses involved to, but they alone are not the only guilty party.

I actually prefer to shop at "mom and pop" stores. I have yet to see anyone suspected to be illegal working there. However, going into a Wal-Mart, Target, McDonalds, Taco Bell there are those who I would suspect are illegal. I managed a Taco Bell and I know they hired illegals. I was crew at McDonalds about the same time and I know they hired illegals.

Besides, "mom and pop" stores don't have the income to hire.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Don't you find it mildly ironic that it is the right (evil capitalists) that wants to stop illegal immigration and undermining of our labor market, and it is the left that wants as many poor people as possible in the country to create a cheap labor glut, keeping unemployment in that sector high and wages low? When you think about it philosophically, you understand immediately why the left does that, but I doubt you'll get it.

Uhhh... what??? Democrats and progressives are ALWAYS calling for increases to minimum wage and try to get corporations to hire to lower unemployment. ALWAYS. Democrats are always trying to find ways to create jobs. Yet, when they send up any bills suggesting that, the right-wing starts screaming about "it costs too much" and "we don't want the government to get involved in people's lives." All the while de-regulating everything and allowing a few thousand people to sit on trillions of dollars not creating any jobs at all. But I doubt you'll get that.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
planespotting
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:08 pm

Can we all at least agree on a few non-partisan facts here?

- Illegal immigrants have broken the law to come into this country.

- Many of them have jobs that other Americans aren't too keen on doing (picking fruit and vegetables for 12 hours a day, for instance)

- Many of them also have jobs that other Americans would do (construction, meat packing plants, etc.)

- Even though they have broken the law to come here, the majority come here for very American reasons (to actually start a better life for their families, to make their families back home in Mexico more prosperous, etc.)

- American businesses are complicit in this illegal action, as they actually hire this source of illegal labor.

- Illegal immigrants are human beings too, and therefore do not deserve to be taken advantage of by the businesses who hire them.

Anyone want to add anything else (remember, think "non-partisan").
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):

But that's not really how conservatives want it to work. They want those with the most money to establish the playing field and that's exactly what we have seen.

You clearly have NO idea of what conservatives want, or what the term means. Stop listening to MSNBC.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):

Uhhh... what??? Democrats and progressives are ALWAYS calling for increases to minimum wage and try to get corporations to hire to lower unemployment.

Which sounds good to the lower tiers of voters and bleeding hearts, but does not do much to help (except maybe stop the most aggregious cases)

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Democrats are always trying to find ways to create jobs.

No. Democrats are always SAYING that they are trying to create jobs. However the programs that they propose do not have that effect. They are a maskirovka. Make it look/sound like you are trying to help, but in reality they are attempting to ensure the continuation and expansion of a dependent class, unable to fend for themselves without the benevolence of their friends the Democrats, who must remain in power in order to give you the goodies.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:22 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
h huh. And how many of you would work at Taco Bell, scrub bar-room floors, or really anything for minimum wage

Well, my first job was washing dishes in a restaurant and the job also included cleaning the floors and stuff (mats, grease traps, etc) at the end of the day. I had it for 6 months and did a good job. Was it a career for me? No. It was a stepping stone as are most of the "unwanted" jobs. But you do them becasue you need to start somewhere and you need to earn money and they teach how to work. The cry of "jobs that no American will do" are BS, sure no one wants]t to do them or necessarily aspires to them but they will do them and the work will be done.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 20):
Can we all at least agree on a few non-partisan facts here?

- Illegal immigrants have broken the law to come into this country.

- Many of them have jobs that other Americans aren't too keen on doing (picking fruit and vegetables for 12 hours a day, for instance)

- Many of them also have jobs that other Americans would do (construction, meat packing plants, etc.)

- Even though they have broken the law to come here, the majority come here for very American reasons (to actually start a better life for their families, to make their families back home in Mexico more prosperous, etc.)

- American businesses are complicit in this illegal action, as they actually hire this source of illegal labor.

- Illegal immigrants are human beings too, and therefore do not deserve to be taken advantage of by the businesses who hire them.

Anyone want to add anything else (remember, think "non-partisan").

While I agree with your synopsis, it does not do anything beyond gather the facts but the facts are already well known. the question now is "what to do about the situation". You cannot just allow those here illegally to continue to just have jobs and you cannot continue to allow people to come here illegally. You also can't just grant those here "amnesty" or whatever as it will just cause an entire new group to come to fill the soon to be vacated jobs once held by those that were illegal but are not legal. You have to enforce the laws see what happens, then adjust the system/laws, and then things will change.

All protecting illegal immigrants does is continues their low level existence and that is not the way any nation should be.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting planespotting (Reply 20):
- Illegal immigrants have broken the law to come into this country

And should be sent home for breaking the law.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 20):
Many of them have jobs that other Americans aren't too keen on doing (picking fruit and vegetables for 12 hours a day, for instance)

B.S. If the job was available they would have to take it or they would be denied benefits. Benefits should only be when there are more unemployed than there are jobs. Send the illegals home and our unemployment would be gone. (that is what Viscente Fox did to lower his unemployment rate. Gave his people maps to the US)

Quoting planespotting (Reply 20):
Even though they have broken the law to come here, the majority come here for very American reasons (to actually start a better life for their families, to make their families back home in Mexico more prosperous, etc.)

But they broke the law and need to be sent home. How many millions across the planet want to come here but have to wait or never get to come because they have to wait to do it legally and not just run across the border.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 20):
American businesses are complicit in this illegal action, as they actually hire this source of illegal labor.

Yes they are and the Feds should be using the laws on the books to go after them.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 20):
Illegal immigrants are human beings too, and therefore do not deserve to be taken advantage of by the businesses who hire them.

But they are illegal and should be sent home for breaking and entering.

Non Partisan fact for you. The federal government is refusing to do the job of applying the laws of the land. Thus by saying they are upholding the constitution in their oath they are breaking that oath by not applying the laws that are on the books and defending the United States.
 
san747
Posts: 4344
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):

I will believe conservatives are trying to level the playing field when they admit that women and minorities still face racism and discrimination in this country.

And I thought government's job was exactly the opposite of "levelling the playing field." All I've heard from conservatives is that a policy trying to do so is socialism and it hurts those who want to work hard to achieve success. Make up your mind, brother.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5258
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:49 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 22):
The cry of "jobs that no American will do" are BS, sure no one wants]t to do them or necessarily aspires to them but they will do them and the work will be done.

Except when they put job postings out for many of these jobs, no one shows up but illegal immigrants.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
Send the illegals home and our unemployment would be gone.

Hardly. If you sent all illegals home, two things would happen. Wages would have to rise significantly meaning many of the jobs held by illegals would simply disappear. These jobs only exist BECAUSE illegals are willing to work for little with no benefits. Second, the population loss from removing illegals would eliminate demand for many goods and services.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
You clearly have NO idea of what conservatives want, or what the term means. Stop listening to MSNBC.

I don't watch MSNBC. However, I know from experience that conservatives want the free market to reign supreme. I also know that in a free market, those with the most money make the rules since they can buy off the rule makers. That's why I know the illegal immigrant problem will never be solved by conservatives because the very same businesses that hire and profit off of illegal immigrants also use their financial influence to prevent immigration reform.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
The federal government is refusing to do the job of applying the laws of the land.

Exactly what laws is the federal government refusing to apply? The federal government is simply applying worker protections to all. No where does it say that those who are here illegally won't still get deported if caught.
 
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2707200X
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):

No. Democrats are always SAYING that they are trying to create jobs.

I suppose the Republicans are the ones making the jobs and not just saying it? Note to self.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:23 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
And should be sent home for breaking the law.

I won't say "sent home" but they should not be able to get a job. Period. And as we have seen with the downturn in the economy, when the jobs go away the illegal immigrants leave. It's not perfect but that should be the primary method of "sending home" with more active methods left to a later time (though not discontinuing currents normal enforcement and return activities).

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
Except when they put job postings out for many of these jobs, no one shows up but illegal immigrants.

So? Someone who is here illegally still should not be able to get that job. There are probably quite a few "legals" in that group. Why did I show up to a dishwasher opening? If you don't stop allowing people that are here illegally to work then the problem will never be solved and those people will continue to be exploited. Allowing the exploitation of illegals is not the right the thing either. Keeping a class of people below everyone else is not the way any nation should run but to not have that, you must have enforcement systems in place to prevent that from happening. No matter what you do.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
Hardly. If you sent all illegals home, two things would happen. Wages would have to rise significantly meaning many of the jobs held by illegals would simply disappear. These jobs only exist BECAUSE illegals are willing to work for little with no benefits. Second, the population loss from removing illegals would eliminate demand for many goods and services.

Again, you have no actual way of knowing that would happen. You THINK it would happen but don't know. The amazing thing that people seem to ignore is that if there is a deleterious effect then laws can be revised and things can be adjusted to address it. It's not like suddenly things will be permanent and problems not able to be addressed.

In fact it could achieve what many seem to want and that is a LEGAL path (guest worker, whatever) for outside labor to come and work in the USA. But first you have to disallow illegal employment and see what the effects are.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
lewis
Posts: 3564
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:24 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
Exactly what laws is the federal government refusing to apply? The federal government is simply applying worker protections to all. No where does it say that those who are here illegally won't still get deported if caught.

I just read today that in CA, illegal immigrants will get more benefits for education. If someone's status is "illegal", how can he/she claim benefits? Wouldn't they automatically be caught and get deported if they tried to apply for the said benefits?

As a foreign worker myself, who had to go through all the legal routes to get a temporary residency status in the US, I am puzzled by this. For every dealing that I have with the public sector in CA, I have to provide paperwork to prove my legal status one way or another and there are limits to what I am and I am not entitled. I still don't get how some can get a free pass like that.
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Dude! We've all done it! When I was a teenager, I sacked groceries, cleared brush, poured concrete, washed dishes, cleaned bathrooms and food preparation areas in a deli, and stacked store shelves, all for minimum wage - $3.25 at the time. We've (most) all been there. Those are normal, entry level jobs for teens who want to earn a little money for gas and to take a girl out on a date once in a while.



   Tried to get my son a job at the car wash down the street ... its hilarious . Their are 40 year old non English speaking men and women working all over that place . I called border patrol just for the hell of it , and reported the place. I want ICE to go after these employers hard. We don't need to deport people ... just implement SB1070 and they will leave.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
If the MARKET demands higher wages, because of supply and demand, that's fine. But when externalities force an increase in wages that is not justified by supply and demand (such as union demands to be paid $30/hour when there are thousands who would sign up for $25), that results in higher unemployment. That's the way the machine works.



   They just don't understand free market and competition . It of course starts with Laws , That is why the left supports defying laws . Immigration law being #1 on the list for defiance . They know that if they can break down our legal framework nothing else will survive. Empathy breaks down the rule of law and Obama hires people based on Empathy.

Solis is a far left Caesar Chavez worshiping La Raza supporter . (She spoke at the U of A in 2010 and I just had to go) She knows nothing of the market place , industry or how to run a company and provide jobs. Like her Boss.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
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casinterest
Posts: 5356
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:33 pm

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
This is disgusting. How many of you are still looking for work? Thank the President and the Labor Department.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...kers/

Gotta love fox news. UnFair and UnBalanced.


http://www.azcentral.com/news/electi.../azfactcheck/fact-story.php?id=301

"The bottom line: It is wrong to say that the Obama administration's new deportation policy would affect hundreds of thousands and potentially millions of illegal immigrants. There are only 300,000 cases that will be reviewed, and only those deemed "low priority" will be potentially closed. Beyond that, the policy change does not grant amnesty, or legal status, to illegal immigrants. Some may receive work permits, but they still won't qualify for any type of legal status or the benefits that go along with legal status, and they could still be deported later.

"
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting san747 (Reply 24):
I will believe conservatives are trying to level the playing field when they admit that women and minorities still face racism and discrimination in this country.

yes, it still happens. My wife was a victim of it. But that does not necessarily mean that the response should be quotas and reverse discrimination. It's like chemotherapy. The treatment is almost as bad as the disease. I don't know if there is a better way to correct for descrimination - frankly I haven't sat down and thought about it much recently, but people should recognize that affirmative action creates a lot of problems itself, and that those who oppose

Quoting san747 (Reply 24):
And I thought government's job was exactly the opposite of "levelling the playing field." All I've heard from conservatives is that a policy trying to do so is socialism and it hurts those who want to work hard to achieve success. Make up your mind, brother.

Leveling the playing field - like I said, is a fundamental function of government. Leveling the scores you achieve seems to be what leftists believe in (aka redistribution of wealth, "guaranteed living income for all; working and non-working people alike" as Cloward/Pivin called it). Those are two very different things.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
I don't watch MSNBC. However, I know from experience that conservatives want the free market to reign supreme.

You guys see nothing but extremes. If we are against some/many regulations, then we must be against all regulation. Nothing can be further than the truth. We are not anarchists. Without a set of rules (aka regulations/laws) then economic progress goes in the toilet. Contract law becomes unenforceable, and without contract law (the idea that if you promise to do something you are legally bound to do it), a lot of economic activity simply cannot happen. There can be no credit, no mortgages. Any and all work or services or purchases would have to be cash, on the spot.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
I also know that in a free market, those with the most money make the rules since they can buy off the rule makers.

That's corruption, not free markets. Are you saying that there is no political corruption in non-free market countries? Having done a lot of business in Communist countries, I can assure you otherwise.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 26):

I suppose the Republicans are the ones making the jobs and not just saying it? Note to self.

Republicans (conservatives specifically) understand that with very few exceptions, government does not create value or jobs. Building infrastructure, such as the Interstate highway system, is one of those exceptions, as it enables other parts of the economy and cannot be effectively done by private enterprise. National defense is somewhere in between - it can be considered overhead expense (a bad thing) but ensures our independence and security (a good thing) which allows economic activity to thrive. The vast majority of government bureaucrats are generally just overhead - you need some, just like any business needs some overhead, but you keep it to aa minimum.

And before you jump on my mentioning infrastructure, for it to add value it must be useful. A "bridge to nowhere" adds no value. It is wasted money, no less wasted than if the government built a million new homes and then burned them to the ground. To truly create value, it must enable the rest of the economy to do something it could not before. For example, a new Interstate highway going from Las Vegas to Reno and Lake Tahoe would bring huge development opportunities for that 300 mile corridor which is currently way in the boonies - no major business would ever want to be there. It would also cut the travel time between Reno and Las Vegas, and there is surely value in that.

But the old saw about a job being created by hiring someone to dig a ditch and then filling it back in is bunk.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:41 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 28):
I just read today that in CA, illegal immigrants will get more benefits for education. If someone's status is "illegal", how can he/she claim benefits? Wouldn't they automatically be caught and get deported if they tried to apply for the said benefits?


Yeah this is a really stupid thing for California to do. We now join Texas in allowing illegal residents to access public funds for school loans.
My one question is: How can they use their education in a job when they can't get a job (that requires a college education) becasue they do not have legal status?

Quoting lewis (Reply 28):
As a foreign worker myself, who had to go through all the legal routes to get a temporary residency status in the US, I am puzzled by this. For every dealing that I have with the public sector in CA, I have to provide paperwork to prove my legal status one way or another and there are limits to what I am and I am not entitled. I still don't get how some can get a free pass like that.

This is what I do not understand, how can people that espouse to want "fairness" for those here illegally not care about the fairness in the treatment of all who are properly seeking to be here? Its not like we are some fortress nation that disallows people from coming and working here.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
Obama hires people based on Empathy.

And this is part of the reason why things get nowhere. We need to Drop the pandering, name-calling rhetoric. This is something that is truly dealt with by Congress and bureaucratic forces not the Administration. It distracts and diverts energy from the actual task at hand of fixing the problem. It isn't going to an administration, Republican or Democrat, that fixes it, they may champion one thing over another but they won't be who fixes it. It will be congress and the lobbyists that come up with whatever. All the "name directed" taunts simply waste energy (but I guess make you feel better?).

Quoting gigneil (Reply 32):
Low wage jobs are available now. American citizens don't apply for them.

And your proof is....? I have applied for them, I say your proof is lacking.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:48 pm

You can't find a job at a fast food restaurant? Really? Seriously?

NS
 
planespotting
Posts: 3026
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:56 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 32):
Those kids don't have jobs because that's how they're being raised. I assure you they could get one if they wanted it.

I don't think we need mindless assertions about other people's kids when you have no information about them other than that someone on this board named "Superfly" says that they can't get a job.
Do you like movies about gladiators?
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 34):
You can't find a job at a fast food restaurant? Really? Seriously?

Are you asking me? Because you are contradicting yourself if you are. The simple truth is that American citizens do apply for and do get "low wage" and fast food jobs. There is no case for the "We need illegal labor to do these jobs", legal residents and citizens very much do apply for them and will get them.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
san747
Posts: 4344
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:48 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 29):
They just don't understand free market and competition . It of course starts with Laws , That is why the left supports defying laws . Immigration law being #1 on the list for defiance . They know that if they can break down our legal framework nothing else will survive. Empathy breaks down the rule of law and Obama hires people based on Empathy.

Do you listen to yourself when you post?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Leveling the scores you achieve seems to be what leftists believe in (aka redistribution of wealth, "guaranteed living income for all; working and non-working people alike" as Cloward/Pivin called it)

I think its semantics and small disagreements in interpretation. For example, I don't see a minimum wage or a living wage as wealth redistribution.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
I don't know if there is a better way to correct for descrimination - frankly I haven't sat down and thought about it much recently, but people should recognize that affirmative action creates a lot of problems itself

It's not an easy problem to solve, absolutely. But because it's not so black and white, a lot of people just pretend the problem doesn't exist, and that is worse.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):

You guys see nothing but extremes. If we are against some/many regulations, then we must be against all regulation.

I wish the conservative posters on here (besides yourself) would stop doing the same thing. Just because I am in favor of some "entitlements" for example, doesn't mean I want us to turn into a socialist nanny state full of people dependent on the government, or that I don't value personal achievement or success.

I'm liberal as they come and guess what? I'm organizing with 2 (also very liberal) friends to start a small business in the next few months. We are not all stereotypes.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 32):

Low wage jobs are available now. American citizens don't apply for them.

Very true.

Quoting tugger (Reply 33):

My one question is: How can they use their education in a job when they can't get a job (that requires a college education) becasue they do not have legal status?

Because its almost exclusively not the illegals themselves, but their American-born children who are applying for aid for college.

Quoting tugger (Reply 33):

And your proof is....? I have applied for them, I say your proof is lacking.

Good for you. You are the exception, not the rule, I assure you.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 34):
You can't find a job at a fast food restaurant? Really? Seriously?

It's not as easy as it used to be. I know a girl who applied to a local McDonald's who needed a resume, went through THREE interviews, and a background check... to work in the kitchen/registers. For minimum wage.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:28 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 36):
The simple truth is that American citizens do apply for and do get "low wage" and fast food jobs.

Okay I think we may be on the same page and not realize it.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are jobs available and that many unemployed Americans don't apply for those jobs, otherwise they would have them. I don't believe at all that the unemployed rate of Americans is a result of unskilled work.

Quoting san747 (Reply 37):
It's not as easy as it used to be. I know a girl who applied to a local McDonald's who needed a resume, went through THREE interviews, and a background check... to work in the kitchen/registers. For minimum wage.

I don't disagree that maybe it takes more than walking in to get one, which is how I think people in my age range that worked in that job type did it. I certainly did. But I think that goes to show that illegals aren't taking those jobs away, because otherwise they wouldn't pass that process.

NS
 
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Tugger
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting san747 (Reply 37):
Because its almost exclusively not the illegals themselves, but their American-born children who are applying for aid for college.

No, those students are obviously US citizens and so do not need any special legislation to be able to get school funds. This is for those not born here but that grew up here, becasue their parents came here illegally and brought their children (foreign born) with them.

Quoting san747 (Reply 37):

Quoting tugger (Reply 33):

And your proof is....? I have applied for them, I say your proof is lacking.

Good for you. You are the exception, not the rule, I assure you.

But again, where is the proof? I at least have personal experience, do you? There must be studies, research and data, but I have never seen anything published.

Tugg

[Edited 2011-09-01 15:50:30]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Flighty
Posts: 7648
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:39 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
The answer: almost nobody

It's good to know that section 8 housing and welfare checks are not needed anymore for the able-bodied. They can report to Taco Bell, and by the way, food stamps won't be neccessary in their case.


The idea that Americans are "unwilling" to do legal-wage jobs, while other Americans deserve unemployment benefits or welfare, is not consistent. Not specifically calling out your post, but it is a popular liberal position. I am a liberal but not when it comes to anti-business nonsense (which is really anti-people), or these straw man immigration arguments. There is no advanced country that allows open labor flows from all locations.

[Edited 2011-09-01 15:43:25]
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:49 pm

I am not at all anti business. And I was a STRONG proponent of Clinton's quite conservative welfare reforms, and I quite frankly believe they didn't go far enough.

Universal health care is a fundamental right of every single human being. A welfare check is not.

NS
 
keagkid101
Posts: 120
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:08 am

This is disgusting. There are MILLIONS of Americans looking for work, and the President and Labor Dept. decide to "protect" workers that are no LEGALLY allowed to work/live in this country? Are you kidding me?

Better start looking from a house in Canada or Portugal.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:19 am

Right. Whatever.

If Americans want work, its available to them. Just because it doesn't meet their standards doesn't mean its not work.

NS
 
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fxramper
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:07 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 43):

Bad Neil. No drinkie in NYC.   
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:12 am

By giving legal and illegal workers the same rights and protections that US workers enjoy, wouldn't the Obama administration be making foreign workers just as expensive as US workers, thus removing the financial incentive employers see when hiring illegals, and increasing the incentive to hire US workers instead?
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:19 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
And guess what - we capitalists don't mind! If that was the situation, we would adapt - we might have to bump up the price of what we are selling, but that's OK because on average the population is getting better wages.

Well, I mind. The government enforcing immigration policies interferes greatly with the free market, especially in labor intensive service sector industries. The government's immigration policy is no different than a union at all -- both seek, either explicitly or indirectly, to artificially inflate labor costs.

As one of the most notable capitalists says:

"No one has the right to pursue his self-interest by law or by force, which is what you're suggesting. You want to forbid immigration on the grounds that it lowers your standard of living -- which isn't true, though if it were true, you'd still have no right to close the borders. You're not entitled to any self-interest that injures others, especially when you can't prove that open immigration affects your self-interest. You can't claim that anything others may do -- for example, simply through competition, is against your self-interest." -- Ayn Rand

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
If the MARKET demands higher wages, because of supply and demand, that's fine. But when externalities force an increase in wages that is not justified by supply and demand (such as union demands to be paid $30/hour when there are thousands who would sign up for $25), that results in higher unemployment. That's the way the machine works.

When an employer hires an illegal immigrant, he is saying that American citizenship is not of value in this particular position. By making it illegal to employ illegal immigrants, the government is forcing the employer to consider citizenship or work authorization as a principle and vital qualification, even though it is not.

For example, when a housewife decides to hire a gardener, it is likely that language skills and citizenship is of very little importance to her. She would likely decide to hire the illegal immigration for, say, $8 an hour with no benefits. The government, however, would say that her primary consideration must be the applicant's immigration status, which in reality has no bearing on the individual's qualification.

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 42):
Better start looking from a house in Canada or Portugal.

Portugal? From what I understand, labor flows fairly freely throughout the EU, which means people from poorer Eastern European countries can legally compete with Portuguese.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:55 am

You just wait and see what happens if a "conservative" Republican ever gets elected. I guarantee you will see all those illegals welcomed with open arms.

Why? Cause Americans will freak the f out if the price of anything goes up.

NS
 
san747
Posts: 4344
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 4:03 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 38):

But again, where is the proof? I at least have personal experience, do you? There must be studies, research and data, but I have never seen anything published.

I've held three minimum wage jobs, including one fast food. And I'm not saying Americans never apply for such jobs. But a very significant amount of the unemployed population simply do not, for whatever reason.

McDonald's got 1,000,000 apps for their nationwide job fair a few months ago. There are roughly 30,000,000 unemployed Americans (based on the published percentage). That's a lot of people not applying for a minimum wage job.

Quoting keagkid101 (Reply 41):

Better start looking from a house in Canada or Portugal.

I hate when people (from either side of the spectrum, liberal or conservative) say they want to leave the country because they don't agree with the policies of the President. It's incredibly childish, and I've never seen anyone actually follow through on it.

You don't like the President? Protest him, vote him out, be an activist against their policies, etc. Don't become a whiny brat.

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 44):
By giving legal and illegal workers the same rights and protections that US workers enjoy, wouldn't the Obama administration be making foreign workers just as expensive as US workers, thus removing the financial incentive employers see when hiring illegals, and increasing the incentive to hire US workers instead?

You are only the 2nd person I have EVER heard explain the situation this way, and I'm not sure why. Everyone thinks that a policy like this is undermining Americans. Everyone fails to realize that forcing employers to compensate illegals the same as US citizens removes any incentive to want to hire the illegal over an American. Enacting such a policy alone would solve a huge part of the problem.

Think of it this way: Why risk prosecution and/or fines for hiring illegals if you have to pay them as much as a US citizen anyway?
Scotty doesn't know...
 
seb146
Posts: 13751
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 3:09 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 33):
You can't find a job at a fast food restaurant? Really? Seriously?

Really. Seriously. I have been out of work for six weeks. I have applied to McDonalds, Taco Bell, and Jack In The Box as well as K-Mart and Macy's. I have years of experience at Taco Bell and McDonalds (because in Oregon, a fast food manager can actually live, not just scrape by) but I could not get hired there to save my life.

I do have a Christmas job at K-Mart, BTW....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Make it look/sound like you are trying to help, but in reality they are attempting to ensure the continuation and expansion of a dependent class, unable to fend for themselves without the benevolence of their friends the Democrats, who must remain in power in order to give you the goodies.

Sounds like the right-wing too. They say lowering taxes on the wealthy will create jobs but, really, how many jobs has that created? What is our unemployment rate?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Which sounds good to the lower tiers of voters and bleeding hearts, but does not do much to help (except maybe stop the most aggregious cases)

So, hiring is bad? Giving people a hand and some bootstraps to pull themselves up by is bad? Complaining about welfare and then not wanting them to get a job is bad? Welcome to tea party America!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 9798
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Obama And Labor Dept Protect Illegal Workers.

Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:23 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 48):
So, hiring is bad? Giving people a hand and some bootstraps to pull themselves up by is bad? Complaining about welfare and then not wanting them to get a job is bad?

Did I say that? You are equating giving a person a job with raising the cost threshold of giving someone a job. Complete nonsense.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.

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