EL-AL
Topic Author
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Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:07 pm

About 40 Israeli passengers on board a Turkish Airlines flight from Tel Aviv to Istanbul were held for several hours by local police on Monday after their passports had been taken away from them. The passengers said that the Turkish police officers were disrespectful, claiming that such an incident was unprecedented.

"I think that the police officers didn't even know what they were looking for," one of the passengers told Ynet. "They apparently got an order to detain us, one by one. Everyone was in shock; we didn't know what they were going to do to us. Obviously this was done intentionally in order to create an unpleasant feeling."


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4117910,00.html

Now, I understand the problem on the governments level, but taking passports from all passengers just because they are flying to Israel? Eventually, it will harm only Turkish Airlines since it's the only airline flying from Israel to Turkey nowdays.

[Edited 2011-09-05 07:34:19]
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bennett123
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:17 pm

Firstly you have copied the same message three times.

Secondly, we do not know WHY these passengers were held.

Three, if no one else flied that route, how will Turkish Airlines suffer.

If you want to fly that route, then you can only fly with that airline.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:34 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 1):
If you want to fly that route, then you can only fly with that airline.

Some passengers fly via IST to other destinations, passengers can do that as well, by going via ATH, LCA or ROM or not flying to Turkey at all.
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azstar
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:40 pm

Every time a Muslim passenger complains about poor treatment there's a flood of responses claiming how unjust it is, and Muslims should not be targeted or treated differently. When the same thing happens to Jews, it's somehow their own fault.
No one in the world seems the least bit indignant.
 
PA515
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:41 pm

Quoting EL-AL (Thread starter):
About 40 Israeli passengers on board a Turkish Airlines flight from Tel Aviv to Istanbul
Quoting EL-AL (Thread starter):
but taking passports from all passengers just because they are flying to Israel?

So which way were they going?

Israeli nationals have been known to travel on false passports, like Mossad employees for instance. Two were caught obtaining a false passport in New Zealand in 2004 and got 6 months imprisonment. The Israeli Government later apologised and said they wouldn't do it again. No one really believes that.

PA515

[Edited 2011-09-05 08:02:19]
 
azstar
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:49 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 3):
When the same thing happens to Jews, it's somehow their own fault.
Quoting PA515 (Reply 4):
Israeli nationals have been known to travel on false passports, like Mossad employees for instance. Two were caught obtaining a false passport in New Zealand about 2005 and got 6 months imprisonment. The Israeli Government later apologised and said they wouldn't do it again. No one really believes that.

This comment is a perfect example.
 
mffoda
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting PA515 (Reply 4):
Israeli nationals have been known to travel on false passports, like Mossad employees for instance.

     

There were 40 of them traveling?

Were going to have to take your Passports... As you are suspected of being a IDF Rifle Platoon! 

Seriously, I don't think there was that much cloak & dagger to it.
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PanHAM
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:00 pm

Quoting PA515 (Reply 4):
Israeli nationals have been known to travel on false passports, like Mossad employees for instance.

you should be aware that this has a political background and it is amazing that a country that wishes to joint the EU puts up such a behavior for which there is a unique German word "Sippenhaft". Your generalizing statement is really amazing, you might as well say that all rock stars wear baggy pants and curse at flight attendants..

May be this thread should be moved to non-aviation.
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blueflyer
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 3):
When the same thing happens to Jews, it's somehow their own fault.

It appears to be a tit-for-tat retaliation by a mid-level airport official angered by alleged mistreatment of Turkish citizens at TLV on their way back home.

This being said, the description of the alleged mistreatment at TLV reads to me like standard airport security fare for Israel (setting aside for a moment the fact that supposedly only Turkish citizens were subjected to enhanced security inspection). We all know how brutally insensitive (by other countries' standards) but effective Israeli security is, with some passengers having a much easier time going through than others, none more so than Israeli citizens.

If it was indeed tit-for-tat retaliation, however unnecessary and unjustified, perhaps it isn't such a bad thing for Israeli citizens to experience once in a while the same level of scrutiny other people do when flying in and out of TLV. If nothing else, it might make them pause long enough to consider whether so much security is necessary or if they're not going a bit too far.

Imagine if US citizens were photographed and fingerprinted every now and then when flying back to the US the way foreigners are every time. I'm thinking the charade would end pretty quickly.

[Edited 2011-09-05 08:36:27]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 6):
There were 40 of them traveling?

Nobody was assuming that, but if they had reports that 2 were in the plane, they'd take all the passports and look at them...


Look, I'm definitely not it the "bash Israel whenever I can boat" but I'm also not in the "react in a crazy matter to a vague story boat." This could be a huge outrage, or there could be a legitimate reason, we do not know yet, so until then, I think some people here are overreacting...
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777way
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 3):
Every time a Muslim passenger complains about poor treatment there's a flood of responses claiming how unjust it is, and Muslims should not be targeted or treated differently. When the same thing happens to Jews, it's somehow their own fault.
No one in the world seems the least bit indignant.

Who accused Jews? its a political issue, and Jews and Israel are known for their anti-semite whining at the drop of a hat, so lets not even go there.

Turkish authorities are also offensive dealing with any nationality at their airports, so Israeli's are not really an exception, and as pointed out this was a tit-for-tat situation.

[Edited 2011-09-05 08:23:42]
 
mffoda
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:45 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):

Are you trying to point out anything in particular regarding my post?
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
JU068
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:55 pm

Anyway, it says that they were Israeli, not Jewish so...

My cousin came back from Israel a couple of weeks ago and he told me that it was a living nightmare at the airport with so much paranoia and questioning.
Actually something similar happened to a group of Serbs traveling and they almost missed their flight. I don't see why the Israelis are victimizing themselves if Serbs didn't do it?
 
bennett123
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:01 pm

"Obviously this was done intentionally in order to create an unpleasant feeling."

How is this "obvious".

If this was another group, then I suspect that people here would be saying "this guy has a grudge" or "he if looking to sue".

Has anyone got the Police/Airport side of this.
 
lucky777
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:07 pm

Israeli's actually complaining about the in-depth security procedures at an International airport???

Pot meet kettle.
 
netjetsintl
Posts: 69
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:08 pm

Quoting PA515 (Reply 4):
So which way were they going?

Israeli nationals have been known to travel on false passports, like Mossad employees for instance. Two were caught obtaining a false passport in New Zealand in 2004 and got 6 months imprisonment. The Israeli Government later apologised and said they wouldn't do it again. No one really believes that.

You watch too many movies my friend.... several people from all nations have gotten cought doing that.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 1):
Secondly, we do not know WHY these passengers were held.

Because Israel will not apologize, that's why
 
coffeebar
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:17 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
Three, if no one else flied that route, how will Turkish Airlines suffer.

If you want to fly that route, then you can only fly with that airline.

He ment that if this harrasment continue, less and less Israelis would fly to IST for vacations and/or connections. I don't think that was so hard to understand.
If less Israelis will choose not to fly the route it will hurt TK, don't you agree?

Quoting azstar (Reply 5):
Israeli nationals have been known to travel on false passports, like Mossad employees for instance. Two were caught obtaining a false passport in New Zealand in 2004 and got 6 months imprisonment. The Israeli Government later apologised and said they wouldn't do it again. No one really believes that.

Jesus such crap

Quoting mffoda (Reply 12):
Who accused Jews? its a political issue, and Jews and Israel are known for their anti-semite whining at the drop of a hat, so lets not even go there.

Turkish authorities are also offensive dealing with any nationality at their airports, so Israeli's are not really an exception, and as pointed out this was a tit-for-tat situation.

Israel is not antisematic, it can't be since it's entire population (exept russian Israelis) are "sematic". let's not start talking about what Pakistan is famous for...

Quoting ju068 (Reply 13):
My cousin came back from Israel a couple of weeks ago and he told me that it was a living nightmare at the airport with so much paranoia and questioning.
Actually something similar happened to a group of Serbs traveling and they almost missed their flight. I don't see why the Israelis are victimizing themselves if Serbs didn't do it?

The point is, that this is NOT NORMAL for IST authorities to act like that and to seperate Israelis from other nationalities.

I just love it when people ask whether TLV security is really nesesery, as if 9/11 never happend...
 
flyguy89
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:32 pm

Quoting azstar (Reply 3):
Every time a Muslim passenger complains about poor treatment there's a flood of responses claiming how unjust it is, and Muslims should not be targeted or treated differently. When the same thing happens to Jews, it's somehow their own fault.
No one in the world seems the least bit indignant.

I agree, the slow creeping rise of antisemitism around the world is disturbing.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 9):
If it was indeed tit-for-tat retaliation, however unnecessary and unjustified, perhaps it isn't such a bad thing for Israeli citizens to experience once in a while the same level of scrutiny other people do when flying in and out of TLV. If nothing else, it might make them pause long enough to consider whether so much security is necessary or if they're not going a bit too far.

I don't mean to come off as crass, but what a dumb statement. So you're saying that because Israel, being the targeted nation that it is, has had to implement certain security measures out of necessity, that Israelis for some reason deserve a 'taste of their own medicine'? I don't think you'll find a single Israeli citizen who would advocate for more lax security at their airports, especially nowadays, and for you to justify this type of treatment in Turkey, assuming it's motivation purely tit-for-tat, is ridiculous. One state (Israel) is using these type of security tactics purely out of necessity to protect it's own citizens and ultimately all travelers in and out of Israel while the other state (Turkey) is doing it simply for bully-like purposes, again assuming this is a tit-for-tat retaliation as you suggest.


Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
its a political issue, and Jews and Israel are known for their anti-semite whining at the drop of a hat, so lets not even go there.

After the holocaust I think Jews have more than earned the right to be cautious (or 'whining' as you put it) over antisemitic sentiment.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 13):
Actually something similar happened to a group of Serbs traveling and they almost missed their flight. I don't see why the Israelis are victimizing themselves if Serbs didn't do it?

You really have to look at the context of this event, happening so soon after Turkey expelled the Israeli ambassador, severed all military ties with Israel while also announcing a challenge to Israel's Gaza blockade in international court, I would say this is hardly just an isolated random incident or a fluke. It's been sad to see Turkey slowly drifting further and further away from the mainstream and become more radical over the past few years especially considering how rigidly secular they once were (something refreshing in the middle east) and the aspirations they held to join the EU.
 
tcm
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:34 pm

Quoting Netjetsintl (Reply 17):
I just love it when people ask whether TLV security is really nesesery, as if 9/11 never happend...

If TLV security is necessary so is the security of IST. I think the Turkish authorities should follow the simple step of reciprocity.
 
Sandager
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:35 pm

eehmm... I find it a but funny that whenever someone gets kicked off an aircraft in the US, we always hear how there MUST be another side of the story.

So far no one has mentioned this directly....
 
777way
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:36 pm

Quoting coffeebar (Reply 18):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 12):
Who accused Jews? its a political issue, and Jews and Israel are known for their anti-semite whining at the drop of a hat, so lets not even go there.

Turkish authorities are also offensive dealing with any nationality at their airports, so Israeli's are not really an exception, and as pointed out this was a tit-for-tat situation.

Israel is not antisematic, it can't be since it's entire population (exept russian Israelis) are "sematic". let's not start talking about what Pakistan is famous for...

I said Israel and Jews start throwingf the anti-semite card at others when confronted, that poster was accusing Muslims of complaining, has a Jew ever been harassed lately for his faith or looking like a Jew or speaking Hebrew? Muslims have been taken off aircraft, not allowed to board and interrogated for all such things.

As for comparing Israel with Pakistan, shows the level of maturity, would you compare Nigeria to Britain?

[Edited 2011-09-05 09:39:51]
 
blueflyer
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:25 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 19):
So you're saying that because Israel, being the targeted nation that it is, has had to implement certain security measures out of necessity, that Israelis for some reason deserve a 'taste of their own medicine'?

Absolutely. Not out of spite or revenge, but as a form of checks and balance. If they do not get a "taste of their own medicine" from time to time, how well can they judge what is being done in their name, whether it is enough, too much or too little? I think Israel's record speaks for itself in as much as its security measures are not too little, but it would be perfectly reasonable to ask whether the same results cannot be achieved with less "offensive" security measures that might buy Israel the goodwill of the passengers subjected to them. That is a decision Israeli citizens need to make, and the best way to make an informed decision is to understand its consequences first hand. It is obviously not possible every time everywhere, but it isn't as if they're going to be scarred for life because they from time to time have to go through enhanced security procedures that other people put up with routinely.

This kind of treatment should be subjected upon the citizens of any country that goes above and beyond the "usual" screening procedures, be it on arrival or departure.

I know the standard reply is that whoever doesn't like the added security measures doesn't have to fly to Israel, but I think it is safe to assume most people for whom flying to Israel is a choice have already made up their mind, and that the ones that remain either don't care, or have to put up with them (to the extent they want to keep their job or maintain family ties).

That Israel is as targeted as it is is further reason, even, to make sure that the balance of security vs inconvenience (or freedom or human rights or whatever one chooses) is as close to perfect as it needs to be, because it would be very easy for Israel to over-react and clamp down far more than is necessary.

Blindly assuming that whatever a government (Israel or other) does in the name of its citizens is always justified, is dumb, however crass you may think this statement is.

As for having issues with "tit-for-tat," although it usually doesn't go that far, all I can say is welcome to the world of diplomacy.

[Edited 2011-09-05 10:28:36]
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srbmod
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RE: Dozens Israelis Humiliated In IST Airport

Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:57 pm

Since so many of you feel that this thread should be deleted and instead of using the Suggest Deletion function, this thread will be locked and not deleted. In the future, if any user feels as though a thread should be moved, deleted, or locked, do not make posts stating as such in the Forums. Use the Suggest Deletion button, as that is why it is there. The Moderators cannot logistically read everything that gets posted and making such requests within a thread does not address the matter, as the Moderators may not even see the request.

Any posts that appear after this locking message will be deleted for housekeeping purposes.

[Edited 2011-09-05 11:31:47]

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