MadameConcorde
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Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:00 pm

Where did the 9/11 conspiracies come from? How did they get so popular?
An interesting article here.


Where Were You When You First Heard?
The other question I asked myself for the 10th anniversary of 9/11.
By Jeremy StahlUpdated Tuesday, Sept. 6, 2011, at 6:59 AM ET

I remember precisely where I was and what I was doing when I heard: I was about three weeks into my first year at Emory University in Atlanta, and I was sharing a meal with my new dorm-mates in the DUC dining hall. In the manner of college freshmen everywhere, we were discussing current events. It was Sept. 12, 2001, less than 28 hours after the attacks, when I heard my first 9/11 conspiracy theory.

http://www.slate.com/id/2302831/


What say you?

 

Please discuss.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:37 pm

There are people around who just LOVE a good conspiracy. I believe it mirrors the gravitation towards religion, ie everything happens for a reason or is part of a master plan

Most are harmless, (like those guys with the tinfoil hats), but some go a bit far, (like the 9/11 guys). Every now and then they get a positive hit and that fuels the fire of conspiracy theorists

It would be interesting to see how many Americans believe in some level of conspiracy around the JFK assassination. There are certainly some pretty fishy circumstances surrounding that event.

My in laws, (not American), are all firm believers in the 9/11 conspiracy theory. I take great pleasure in stirring them up.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:56 pm

Some important reasons why you have the '9/11 Truthers' and their related conspiracy beliefs as with some other major events like JFK's assissination, the OKC bombing and other events that trigger conspiricies:

- for any major event that something so big could not have been done by just one pereson or a small group of people, it had to involve governments, or critical insiders in the US or other governrnments, big business, etc.

- someone gained by it happening, from the military, big corporations, other countries etc.

More specifically to the 9/11 attacks.

- as to the WTC attacks, how is it 2 planes were able to hit the towers in such a way to cause their total collaspe

- the failures of President Bush to take immediate actions with the memo of 8/7/01 warning of near term attacks by al-Queda

- the failures and incompentence of the FBI, CIA, airlines, airport secuity to prevent them.

- those that want to blame Israel for all the causes of terrorism, leading to those conspiricies linked to them, especially to set blame on the Islamic world to bring war against them to protect Israel. These conspiricies are very popular in the Islamic world.

- bad and faulty eyewitness testimony as the events happened, some who want to see what they want to see - something well shown in a number of criminal trials

- 'Monday morning Quaterbacking' of what was happening just before 9/11 and noteing the many and massive security failures that some want to not be blame for and why someone didn't take more decisive actions that could have prevented the attacks.

- that a lot of the evidence of the aircraft and the attackers was lost in the massive destruction and subsequent fires.

- too many bad and hidden acts of our and other governments, especially by the CIA that come out later makes some thing they could be capable of causing such an act.
 
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:57 pm

I think it boils down to plain old ignorance. The only place anyone had seen that kind of destruction was in movies. For the first time the world saw the laws of physics of such destruction in action. It looks strange to them, as if they have some previous occurrence to compare it to. A building can't possibly collapse like that. Planes bring down large towers like that? impossible! Even though the world has never seen Boeing 767s loaded with fuel slam into 1,000 foot skyscrapers at over 400mph, these people somehow know the outcome is impossible. Most of these people have no education in physics or structural engineering, yet they make such claims.

Then add the incompetence of the Government and somehow that validates that it was an inside job and all a big cover up.

What's funny is that there is many different conspiracy theories. They all share similar themes, but as to the specifics there are so many variations. It doesn't matter to these people. They just want to believe the Govt was in on it somehow and will reach very hard for any way to "prove" it.

I don't get it. I don't believe any of it. I think it's sad.
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seb146
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:11 pm

Because people keep asking "But what about....?" and don't get an answer that satisfies them. There is still questions about Tower 7 (I believe that is the one) and how some people believe it was a controlled explosion. Some people believe the Pentagon was not hit by aircraft because they (they consipiracy theorists) did not see pieces of a plane. I have been seeing different conspiracy shows on all this in the past few weeks. The only answer I get is people are not satisfied with what they are told. Also, our government has not been honest with us about a lot of things for years anyway. That adds fuel to the fire.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:20 pm

My biggest problem with conspiracy theories is the incompetence of the government. Our government can't even do its main function (run the country) how can it orchestrate such an elaborate plan with NO ONE leaking the information?? Which leads me to the next big problem, leaks. How many leaks do we see every year that the government really, really wants to be secret? How can you get hundreds, maybe even thousands of Americans to stay silent for 10 years on the slaughter of thousands of people????? NO!

A problem I've seen in many complex conspiracy theories (especially the hour long "proofs" on youtube) is that they find some strange occurrence, CONCLUDE on why that happened, then use that CONCLUSION as proof for another event. They build a huge elaborate scheme that is technically possible, but all the "proof" can be traced back to a plausible conclusion (but never any facts!)

I think the craziest theory I saw was that Nixon was responsible for the JFK assassination, and there was some secret organization he was in, and you had to commit a heinous act to get in. The ending was how did George W Bush get it? Then it showed the Twin Towers. Give me a break.
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flymia
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
My biggest problem with conspiracy theories is the incompetence of the government. Our government can't even do its main function (run the country) how can it orchestrate such an elaborate plan with NO ONE leaking the information?? Which leads me to the next big problem, leaks. How many leaks do we see every year that the government really, really wants to be secret? How can you get hundreds, maybe even thousands of Americans to stay silent for 10 years on the slaughter of thousands of people????? NO!

Even though it is not science I think your right, this is the biggest and most valid piece of evidence there is for 9/11. JFK sure it could habe been a few people, even Pearl Harbor. The "they knew it was coming thing" but 9/11 would have taken hundreds if not thousands to pull off. No one stays silent about that. Its natural for there to be these theories and I think it is natural and ok for us to call those people crazy and idiots. Also people such as the maker or lose change, they may just be in it for the money.
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:04 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 7):
Also people such as the maker or lose change, they may just be in it for the money.

Definitely. And if true, it's funny that supporters criticize the majority for being manipulated by the media and the Gov't, when they're being manipulated by someone interesting in making a name and profit.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 8):
Definitely. And if true, it's funny that supporters criticize the majority for being manipulated by the media and the Gov't, when they're being manipulated by someone interesting in making a name and profit.

Haha I forgot about that... I was on a conspiracy theorist forum and the threads would all be the same... "Look what I found about ________!" People would be saying that it was a definite game changer, proof, now they believe it. Someone would call BS and be accused of being a sheeple by the government... more like those posters were being sheeple and listening to every poster's new theory! Now I try not to generalize, and I have seen a few posters on here with mild concerns that make some sense, but a bunch of them are exactly like what I described! Ironically, they think they're thinking independently, yet they depend on the unverified "proofs" of other conspiracy theorists...
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GDB
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:21 pm

Good answers, saved me some typing!

I do think the incredulity factor plays a part, outside of the usual suspects with their various axes to grind.

Same applied to JFK, how could one man, a rather sad figure at that, kill such a powerful man as a US President?
But they never answer what to me is an obvious question - was the attempt on Reagan a plot too?
If not, why not? Another sad and rather pathetic person got much closer to the President too, Reagan was very lucky to survive. Had JFK's crumbling spine not needed a brace he might have been able to duck after the first shot.
These two were not the first either, Lincoln, McKinley both killed, both by lone nuts.

Was it the advent to seeing it on TV? Again, same does not to apply to Reagan it seems.

They also choose to ignore a real conspiracy, the one perpetrated by the Nixon White House.
Is it because the fact that only a few involved but it got found out, blows a rather large hole in the ideas around massive plots?
Motive too. Nixon was in 1972, set to win that year, which he did in a massive landslide.
So why take risks with petty bugging of opponents?
Because for all his power, all his political capitol, Nixon had demons, was paranoid.
His awkward public persona was not just shyness, for all his power and lust for more of it, being President was just not suited to his personality. At least in the televisual age.
(Until last year, we had the Prime Minister who had many of the same issues in being in the top job).

This I think is instructive, most real conspiracies are petty, small minded affairs, not massive plots.
And what causes the real damage, are the attempts to cover up, call it the 'kid found with his hands in his mother's purse syndrome!'
Panic grips the people involved, it all falls apart.

We've even had cases where people in power have had to resign for attempting to spin, cover up, yet the subsequent inquiry into the dirty deed itself has found no serious wrong doing. Had they not panicked, they'd have ridden it out most likely.

Now make the leap to supposed massive plots like Sept 11th, it just doesn't compute.
Motive is often said to enable Bush to attack countries like Iraq, so when one of the major reasons for doing so turns out to be false, lack of WMD's, why did our conspirators not cover themselves by planting WMD's?
Which would have been much easier.
Then look at the massive incompetence, of an unprecedented degree, in the aftermath of the invasion.
Such serial incompetence from those who allegedly pulled off the biggest plot of all, Sept 11th?
Incompetence that would, in time, cause massive political damage to them.

But many people cannot accept that yes, something unprecedented, unimaginable, CAN come out of a clear blue sky, literally in the case of the 2001 attacks.
Even though since 1998 Bin Laden had said, in public, in front of cameras (even CNN were invited), that his group was out to kill as many of their enemies as possible.

In 1994 a bunch of Algerian islamists sought to do the same to Paris with a hijacked AF jet, they failed but the intention was clear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969

[Edited 2011-09-06 11:22:31]
 
MD-90
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:21 pm

I recommend reading this article on conspiracy theories in general, including 9/11 ones.

http://www.garynorth.com/public/8431.cfm

Quote:
There will come a day when the building will collapse.

I can tell you what will trigger this. Washington's checks will bounce, or just as bad from the recipients' point of view, not buy anything. That will be the day when the central bank-sustained house of economic cards, sustained by lies, comes crashing down. That will be the day of collapsing faith in the government's biggest lie of all: its promise of endless checks, free of charge to the recipients. "They lied! They lied!" Indeed, they did.

"I wonder what else they lied about."

The footnotes are out there. The textbooks are not.
 
FoxTwo
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:30 pm

The Answer is Simple : For every tragedy , someone will try to make a buck off it by playing the emotional card. Roger Moore , or the countless other theorists out there. Regular War is just not acceptable by their standards, and I guess they feel comfortable knowing Jack Bauer is running around protecting them from the god awful evil president.
F2
 
BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:09 pm

Conspiracies in general emerge from an 'earned' distrust of an entity or person that has presented him or itself to be 'true or truth'...and subsequently proven to be the exact opposite. You all do it with people that you know..once they're established as a liar or deceptive.. the smart ones no longer invest any trust in that person or entity. Some people will accept that lying person or entity again and again..and get burned each and every time without fail. As proof, look at the Churches, the Catholic Church in particular, the 100s of years of deceit, betrayal, outright hostilities and look at how many people keep going back given that it's echelon of power hasn't really changed all that much. That is the perfect model of how people will believe in something in spite of it's actions. Your indoctrination to the church begins young and goes for years. So you're basically conditioned believe in a certain manner. The same with gov't..whether your gov't capital in Lagos, Moscow or DC. As a native of such, you believe your gov't can do no wrong -- but you tell yourself "ok, in the past they did..but not now, we have much more stringent measures in place so it's harder to get away with"... when in truth just the opposite is true.

Take Cheney/Halliburton and the raping of the US Treasury by way of no-bid contracts....compared to the long list of House of Rep. Speakers/Leaders who went down for corruption, Jim Wright, John Tower, Tip O'Neill, etc..none of those guys would have dreamed of such enormous scales of theft that new age politicians have pulled off and gotten away with. So yes, it has certainly gotten worse. So people become skeptical of their leadership - and rightfully so.. I mean it's unfolding right before your very eyes..how on earth can you deny it?

Corporations, take BP and the Gulf spill for example.. given what you know now, would you trust BP or any oil company to lord over a giant spill - would you trust them to handle everything and take their word for it that 'it isn't as bad as it looks and don't worry, we'll take care of it'..? If you were paying attention your answer is a 'solid NO'. Given what I know about corporate conduct I didn't need to see the Gulf spill play out to know exactly how BP would respond.. it was predictable. But because of cost, money, greed..BP went into protection mode and the lies started flying. That is my point about how conspiracy ALWAYS accompanies 'power and wealth' and not always in a bad way.. it's bad when people are harmed or killed.

When that fella was going to bring down Murdoch & the UK gov't...and he was suddenly killed... how many of you believe that was a coincidence? To some people, conspiracy simply doesn't exist - which is better known as a perfect world. Sorry, I don't live there.

So as to 9/11, the simple conduct of Bush trying to stop all investigations - going out of his way to stop it along with his closest circle. They way they threatened a frighten public with "with the if you don't re-elect us' the terrorist may strike again tactics, all the signs of a lying scoundrel were playing out right infront of our faces and many choose to write it off as 'oh there just has to be reason they are saying that.." yeah, there is.. they are feeding you horsecrap and most are eating up because they have nowhere else to turn. So you accept that kind of behavior, basically giving them a green light to continue whatever it is they are up to. That deception led to a disastrous attack on the wrong nation costing untold numbers of death.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 2):
It would be interesting to see how many Americans believe in some level of conspiracy around the JFK assassination. There are certainly some pretty fishy circumstances surrounding that event.

I just can't wait for the 'anti-conspiracy types' calling Jackie Onassis a liar and delusional when her personal recordings are released this month where she shares here belief that LBJ was behind her husbands assassination. When I was a kid I would be one of those because I was offended when distinguished former FLOTUS 'married' a foreigner. I was outraged! But as I grow older, I realized, what on earth was I thinking? What right do I have to question the personal decisions of someone I don't even know. Someone who's world I knew nothing about?! It was sheer insanity for me to feel and think that way. But sadly, most Americans are stuck directly in that lane of thinking I had when I was a kid. They think they understand that world of power, intrigue and influence. And since most Americans ARE NOT wealthy, ARE NOT influential, ARE NOT politically connected..they no f*n idea what is going on. Not then and certainly not now. Most don't even bother to educate themselves enough to form a rational opinion.

For those people who run around calling those who 'acknowledge the existence and presence of conspiracy' nuts, crazy, loons..' this speaks directly about your wiling ability to suspend a dark side of humanity and completely dispense it from your mind. Yep, like that kid who plugs his ears and shouts "lalalalalalala..' I can't hear you".. the old adage ignorance is bliss cuts more ways than one. The level ignorance of the person who does this..and lumps the UFO believers and 9/11 believes and the Obama Birthers into the bag of 'nutty conspiracy people' have simply adopted or feel comfortable with an anti-intellectual approach. After all quantum theory if true (and it is certainly undermining the classic understanding of physics as we know it)...says virtually anything is possible. Including those UFO 'the other' nuts blab about.

So again with 9/11, with so many Americans having never travelled abroad, no clue as to how real power and influence works... their gov't is all they have and there's just no way you're going to get them believe it could be involved in anything so heinous. End of story.

BN747

[Edited 2011-09-06 15:56:52]
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GDB
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:18 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):

When that fella was going to bring down Murdoch & the UK gov't...and he was suddenly killed... how many of you believe that was a coincidence? To some people, conspiracy simply doesn't exist - which is better known as a perfect world. Sorry, I don't live there.

Who was than then?
That ex hack who had a very long history of alcohol and drug abuse?
I've news for you, he wasn't even a major player, let alone a plotter. Those who have pushed to expose the wrongdoings of the Murdoch press and UK governments kowtowing to them (over 30 years) are still very much still alive and kicking.
And winning.
They include journalists, MP's, celebrity victims and what turned the issue into a major and ongoing scandal, the families of the crime victims hacked by the press. Nope, they've not been bumped off either.

So really, you don't seem to know hardly anything about this whole case, which is, as I said, still far from over.
You've heard one thing, not even a major part of the story and massively inflated it.
Murdoch has lost one of his few profitable papers, his most important agenda, gaining full control of BSkyB is politically and commercially dead, Parliament is far from finished with his organisation, his Son's accession to replace him now looks most unlikely, the PM is still carrying the stench of him taking on a former Murdoch editor as a Press Secretary (who was forced to resign months ago).

The idea that this scandal would collapse the UK government in short order is another fantasy, not how the real world works, (even Watergate - that most inconvenient event for conspiracy types - took two years to fell Nixon), it has done damage to Cameron, may well do more yet.

As to Bush not wanting the 9/11 investigation, you bet he didn't.
Because he knew how warnings about a possible major attack on the US in the months leading up to Sept 11th were ignored, sidelined.
Experienced people like Richard Clark were not taken seriously.
The then National Security Advisor Condi Rice was incompetent.
I agree with you that he used those events to advance his own agenda, are you saying then that therefore they had a hand to doing it? That's a vast leap.

People just hate to think that after all those trillions of $ over all those years, spent on defence, on intelligence, was beaten by a bunch of terrorists.
But that vast apparatus was not designed for that kind of threat.
In the 1930's the French spent huge sums on a massive network of defences against a German invasion, the Maginot Line, in 1940 the Germans just went around it.

In 1994 the terrorists learned from the failed attempt to crash an airliner on Paris, the US administration in 2001 probably didn't even know it had ever happened.

[Edited 2011-09-06 16:33:30]
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:31 pm

I think there are some good points behind some of the conspiracies. Some of them are nutty and would involve too many people. However a straight out CIA members met with Bin Ladin to arrange for this attack, so we could invade Afghanistan to take control of a very important oil pipeline isn't too whack...

as well as to create the Freedom reducing Patriot Act for one step closer to making the U.S.A. a police state is not that whack either.


However the idea that painting KC-767s up as United and American planes and flying them as drones into the tower, or putting all people from the 4 planes aboard one plane and landing it in Cleveland with no explanation to where the passengers ended up is whack.
 
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:37 pm

[quote=FoxTwo,reply=12]Roger Moore , or the countless other theorists out there. Regular War is just not acceptable by their standards, and I guess

FoxTwo.......I think you are getting your Moore's mixed up ! Surely you don't think James Bond would..................?

On the other hand, we have that well known fat slob from Flint, Michigan, named Michael............... who has single handedly created a career "Professional Liar" ( and all around obnoxious puke ) I think he's the "Moore" you mean ?


Conspiracy theories; where do they come from ?

The "schmucks" who make up conspiracies can't be troubled by the laws of physics, or even the "laws of the land";
because they have an agenda; they have a "problem" they want to attack; they "operate" on the principle, "think up a great lie, then tell it over and over enough times, and pretty soon it will become true ! ( or at least there will always be idiots who will think it's true ) That's where conspiracy theories come from.


[quote=Silver1SWA,reply=4]A building can't possibly collapse like that. Planes bring down large towers like that? impossible! Even though the world has never seen Boeing 767s loaded with fuel slam into 1,000 foot skyscrapers at over 400mph, these people somehow know the outcome is impossible. Most of these people have no education in physics or structural engineering, yet they make such claims.


Very good point ! I'm sure there may still be a few people who don't believe a large airliner flying into a skyscraper at 400kts couldn't cause it to collapse; I think before 9-11 there may have been a few engineers and architects who may have doubted it being possible. But how many people ever stop to consider how many thousands of tons of "stuff" are in a huge building, over 1,200 feet high ? And what do they think is holding all of that immense weight "up" ? Ask them, and they will reply, "steel" ! Steel is "strong" ! Everyone knows that. Yeah, steel is very strong; until it reaches a temperature of around 2,000 degrees F...........after which point it becomes a "wet noodle"; ( and wet noodles are incapable of holding up thousands of tons of......"anything". )

When I was "a little younger", I clearly remember the day a B-25 bomber crashed into the Empire State Building; made a big smoking hole, set some fires, ( which were quickly put out ), and as we all know, the ESB is still standing there.
But as many on this website are aware, there's a BIG difference between a B-25 and a B 767 ! ( and a HUGE difference in the amount of fuel on board. )

We were already in a "war" prior to 9-11; the attacks on the WTC just vastly escalated that war; and it's definitely NOT OVER YET. That's what I'm concerned about.

Charley
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BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:44 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 14):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):

When that fella was going to bring down Murdoch & the UK gov't...and he was suddenly killed... how many of you believe that was a coincidence? To some people, conspiracy simply doesn't exist - which is better known as a perfect world. Sorry, I don't live there.

Who was than then?
That ex hack who had a very long history of alcohol and drug abuse?
I've news for you, he wasn't even a major player, let alone a plotter. Those who have pushed to expose the wrongdoings of the Murdoch press and UK governments kowtowing to them (over 30 years) are still very much still alive and kicking.
And winning.
They include journalists, MP's, celebrity victims and what turned the issue into a major and ongoing scandal, the families of the crime victims hacked by the press. Nope, they've not been bumped off either.

So really, you don't even know hardly anything about this whole case, which is, as I said, still far from over.
You've heard one thing, not even a major part of the story and massively inflated it to suit your own, frankly bizarre ideas.
Murdoch has lost one of his few profitable papers, his most important agenda, gaining full control of BSkyB is politically and commercially dead, Parliament is far from finished with his organisation, his Son's accession to replace him now looks most unlikely, the PM is still carrying the stench of him taking on a former Murdoch editor as a Press Secretary (who was forced to resign months ago).

Classic conspiracy theory stuff then, no real knowledge of the issue you profess to have such an insight about, making 2 + 2 = 10.

Whoa ease up on that throttle there, hoss...

I'll admit, I don't know any of the real details of that story , you're much closer to than any of Americans will be. I just read the guy had a connection to it..and was sudenly 'offed'..

..so are you saying he had 'no connection' whatsoever?

Because he drank alcohol and took drugs..he's a scumbag?

Do you drink? I bet you do. Should your standing be questioned because you drink? If you don't drink, do you take any kind of drugs? Sure..only for your arthritis...the majority of adults on this planet either drink or use drugs - illegal or prescription. So don't even try to apply that crutch to discredit someone unless you're willing apply it to yourself. And of course this being the internet...you're a saint.

I bet Murdoch and half the UK gov't (like our own gov't) are drunks and drug abusers.. so please spare us the whole morality attack.

Getting back to the fella I quoted.. did he have any involvement or not? The American media sure played it up like it did..and here you are telling us it was bogus.

I'm very skeptical of people who 'trash' others the way you just did based on what 'he reportedly' did. It reeks of the same foul odor this gov't did on Bin Laden. Once the man was killed .. that was enough. There was no need to announce 'oh, he had a big porn stash'. What did that message say to the listening public? It said porn is bad..yet every male who heard it has either a bigger stash or has clocked record hours of cruising porn sites. Tactics like yours of trashing people based on vice keeps hypocrisy alive and well. Thanks for that.


BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:06 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From? 

Two places. The first from people that have way too much time on their hands trying to debunk the simplest of reasoning. Two, the gullible ones that get themselves in the spot light exclaiming that the first party is absolutely correct.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 16):
When I was "a little younger", I clearly remember the day a B-25 bomber crashed into the Empire State Building; made a big smoking hole, set some fires, ( which were quickly put out ), and as we all know, the ESB is still standing there.
But as many on this website are aware, there's a BIG difference between a B-25 and a B 767 !

And they also don't get that one event was basically a roman candle being fired at a cinder block whereas the other was a molotov cocktail thrown into a soda can.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:21 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 15):
Afghanistan to take control of a very important oil pipeline isn't too whack...

I hate this one. I absolutely hate it. And the whole Iraq for oil one. *Where is our free/low costing oil!!!???*
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:33 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 15):
as well as to create the Freedom reducing Patriot Act for one step closer to making the U.S.A. a police state is not that whack either.


A police state? Even saying the US is coming close to a police state is a huge exaggeration, that's like saying Harlem is a third world country.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 19):
I hate this one. I absolutely hate it. And the whole Iraq for oil one. *Where is our free/low costing oil!!!???*


I never understood that argument either. We DONT have the oil.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 13):


Your in America believe what you want to believe, one of the great things about this country. Funny, if these theories were anywhere near the truth why not try to shut up some of the people then? If they can pull off 9/11 they surley can do that.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:53 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 20):
Your in America believe what you want to believe, one of the great things about this country. Funny, if these theories were anywhere near the truth why not try to shut up some of the people then? If they can pull off 9/11 they surley can do that.

Isn't it obvious? I mean seriously....?

If you 'shut up' people who are near truth .. to the point of eliminating them all. Then you've arrived Agousto Pinochet's Chile..the perfect Police State.

The beauty in having babbling conspiracy theorists rattling off from a 1000 different points of view..is that those in the middle watching have NO IDEA what to think, so they buy into everything the official line says without question and we'll actually fight 'for' said authority further validating their actions be they right or wrong. Which is where most of you find yourselves today.

What was it like in Police state? And I actually visited under his rule.. everyone is like robots, no one has an opinion and no one steps out of line. Kind of like Cuba the dumbest street corner cop has absolute and total control over you, your family and everyone on the block.

So the conspiracy blabber mouths contribute greatly to forces in power.. it keeps the ordinary joe either inline with them as supporters or a state of 'not knowing what to beleive' therefore tuning out and signing off altogether. Which is exactly where America (and many nations) stand today.


BN747
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Maverick623
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:23 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):

- the failures and incompentence of the FBI, CIA, airlines, airport secuity to prevent them.

FBI and CIA? Absolutely.

Airlines and airport security? Not a friggen chance in hell. You should read up on the interviews of the ticket agent who checked in two of the hijackers (including Atta) in PWM, and a BOS security agent who performed secondary security screening on one of the hijackers. They're actually pretty informative and rather chilling.

For example, the ticket agent actually hassled Atta and tried in vain to find a reason to keep him from getting on the plane, because, as he put it, "if there ever was going to be a hijacker, this was him."

The fact was that neither airlines nor airport security had any grounds to deny boarding to any of the hijackers with the information they had. Once they made it to the airport... they were on.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 4):

Then add the incompetence of the Government and somehow that validates that it was an inside job and all a big cover up.

I always loved that rationale: if the government is that incompetent, how the hell are they able to keep such a huge secret?

Quoting flymia (Reply 20):
Even saying the US is coming close to a police state is a huge exaggeration

You should try reading the Patriot Act. Also, the recent SCOTUS decision that basically says police officers can break into your home without a warrant, no matter their intent (legal or not), and even when the intent is clearly illegal and/or the person inside has no reason to believe they're police, that person cannot put up any kind of resistance lest he/she faces charges.

If that's not heading towards a police state, then there's frankly no such thing.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:13 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
Also, the recent SCOTUS decision that basically says police officers can break into your home without a warrant, no matter their intent (legal or not), and even when the intent is clearly illegal and/or the person inside has no reason to believe they're police, that person cannot put up any kind of resistance lest he/she faces charges.

Source??? For some reason, I'm sure the real law isn't as bad as you made it sound
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4holer
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:36 pm

Where do these conspiracies come from?
I believe that they come from a particular quirk of human nature. People like to feel that they are smarter than the rest of us. And it seems that people who are further down on the intelligence percentile scale REALLY need to feel that way. Kind of like that short guy we all know with Napoleon Syndrome overcompensating with a hardass attitude or the broke guy with a BMW, people like to feel better about themselves. For 9-11 conspiracists, that "I'm so much smarter than you fools" aspect thrives, especially when profiteers can make a buck from reinforcing that feeling.
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GDB
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:14 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 17):
I'll admit, I don't know any of the real details of that story

My excess use of throttle?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 17):
..so are you saying he had 'no connection' whatsoever?

Because he drank alcohol and took drugs..he's a scumbag?

Do you drink? I bet you do. Should your standing be questioned because you drink? If you don't drink, do you take any kind of drugs? Sure..only for your arthritis...the majority of adults on this planet either drink or use drugs - illegal or prescription. So don't even try to apply that crutch to discredit someone unless you're willing apply it to yourself. And of course this being the internet...you're a saint.

I bet Murdoch and half the UK gov't (like our own gov't) are drunks and drug abusers.. so please spare us the whole morality attack.

Getting back to the fella I quoted.. did he have any involvement or not? The American media sure played it up like it did..and here you are telling us it was bogus.

I'm very skeptical of people who 'trash' others the way you just did based on what 'he reportedly' did. It reeks of the same foul odor this gov't did on Bin Laden. Once the man was killed .. that was enough. There was no need to announce 'oh, he had a big porn stash'. What did that message say to the listening public? It said porn is bad..yet every male who heard it has either a bigger stash or has clocked record hours of cruising porn sites. Tactics like yours of trashing people based on vice keeps hypocrisy alive and well. Thanks for that.

I've not had a drink since March 2000 if you must know, never a problem, just that then I started taking a medication to control my recent diagnoses of Rheumatoid Arthritis and I was strongly advised not to drink alcohol due to potential side effects.
The drug I 'use' for this is Methotrexate if you want to check that statement.

I have no idea if the UK government are drink and drug abusers, certainly be risky in our leak prone government, scandal happy press, 24 hour news environment. I know plenty have admitted to having experience of them in their youth.

I saw an interview with the deceased ex Murdoch employee, days before he died, he had a gray pallor and looked most unhealthy, he'd also given his evidence so any assassin was a bit too late.
Did I SAY he was a scumbag? No YOU did. Your words not mine. You who has admitted to knowing little about this case (which I've been following for years). You who knew next to nothing about this unfortunate man, who at least did the right thing in the end.

As I said, he was just a small cog in a revving up machine, this scandal has been bubbling away for years, it was only a minority interest until the revelations that not only were Royal, Politicians, Celebs phones were hacked, but also the phone of a young girl who was murdered , families of dead servicemen and plenty of other blameless people.

Many of the political classes were just scared of the Murdoch press - who if they cannot find out scandal, make it up knowing enough mud that is slung gets to stick.
The scandal that erupted this year changed all that, it was now far more politically toxic to kowtow to Murdoch in the wake of massive public disgust, than to risk taking them on.

There was a conspiracy all right, a fear induced conspiracy of silence, of acquiescence by much (though not all) of the political classes, then the major scandal broke and we were reminded of the story of the Emporer's new clothes.
This government overreached in being nice to Murdoch, the Murdoch press finally overreached in their sleazy behavior.

Presume of me what you like, I'm as sceptical as the next (rational) person and no stranger to cynicism.
But I don't believe in huge conspiracies, in the same way as I don't believe in Santa Claus.
I also do not think the world, human nature, is anything like as simplistically black and white as conspiracy theorists believe.

All you've done is make a lot of assumptions about me, not properly answered ANY of the points I made, indeed seem pretty upset that I dared to bring some rational argument, facts, examples of actual conspiracies (like Watergate) which happen to seriously undermine the fantasy world of huge conspiracy theories.

Do you think the Holocaust was faked? If not, why not? After all the 'historical reviewers' there use the same methods, same attacks and assumptions on those who deem to bring common sense into it, avoid or attack any living witnesses as being 'part of the plot' best - or worst - of all, many of the same people are into big conspiracy theories in general.
A Venn Diagram of '9/11 Truthers', Obama is foreign/a Muslim/a terrorist has a LOT of overlap with Holocaust deniers.
If that seems strong, an incorrect assumption on my part (which I suspect it is in your case?), all I say is if you lie down with dogs, you get fleas.

[Edited 2011-09-07 12:17:16]
 
slider
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:10 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 4):
The only place anyone had seen that kind of destruction was in movies. For the first time the world saw the laws of physics of such destruction in action. It looks strange to them, as if they have some previous occurrence to compare it to. A building can't possibly collapse like that. Planes bring down large towers like that? impossible! Even though the world has never seen Boeing 767s loaded with fuel slam into 1,000 foot skyscrapers at over 400mph, these people somehow know the outcome is impossible. Most of these people have no education in physics or structural engineering, yet they make such claims.

All good reasons...I think fear and ignorance fuel a lot of it.

And, truth be told, the media itself didn't do a good job early on of explaining these sort of things (another media failure) and so in the absence of facts and expertise, all sorts of countertheories emerge. In the case of the WTC, that was only heightened because of the different architecture and structural exoskeleton and the physics involved.

But I think fear just drives a lot of it--the fear to address the real truth, that we were attacked on our own soil, all warning signs were unheeded and there is a massive vulnerability in confronting that.
 
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:36 pm

Out of a sick and twisted mind.

One of the very first books on a 9/11 conspiracy was written by a French author, who didn't even bother going to the Pentagon and interview witnesses. He did all of his research online, cherrypicked a couple of photos, and proclaimed that since they didn't contain anything that could clearly be identified as wreckage, AA77 never existed and the damage was done by something else.

And it's a tradition that is sadly continued to this day. A group of grumpy people, proclaiming themselves to be (landscape) architects and (computer) engineers proclaim that since they can't believe it wasn't a controlled demolition, everyone has to accept their word that it was.

Oh yeah, don't forget, there's money to be had. Sales of books, DVDs, merchandise (for which you need not look further than Alex Jones, the king of conspiracy theories) - hell, even TV shows, just look at Jesse Ventura and that piece of **** TV show he did. Sure, truTV was covering their asses, claiming it was all 'just for fun', but to the conspiracy nutjobs it was as real as it got. Outside that, the leader of one of the "X for 9/11 Truth"-groups grossed in $75,000 in earnings last year, taken from donations to said group. That is outside the fees he got for showing conspiracy nutjobs his lovely, self-debunking presentation, showing how the WTC towers were clearly destroyed by controlled demolitions.
 
BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:38 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 25):
Many of the political classes were just scared of the Murdoch press - who if they cannot find out scandal, make it up knowing enough mud that is slung gets to stick.
The scandal that erupted this year changed all that, it was now far more politically toxic to kowtow to Murdoch in the wake of massive public disgust, than to risk taking them on.

There was a conspiracy all right, a fear induced conspiracy of silence, of acquiescence by much (though not all) of the political classes, then the major scandal broke and we were reminded of the story of the Emporer's new clothes.
This government overreached in being nice to Murdoch, the Murdoch press finally overreached in their sleazy behavior.

And this is dead on to what happened with J. Edgar Hoover.. his sexual preferences were used against him by Mafia bosses prompting Hoover to state forceful, 'organized crime does not exist' thereby giving the mafia free reign. Justice was compromised for years because of his own spineless guilt-ridden persona. The Nation suffered as UK has suffered from these spineless hacks.

Quoting GDB (Reply 25):
As I said, he was just a small cog in a revving up machine, this scandal has been bubbling away for years,

If he were such a small cog...then why was he killed? Remember it was reported here in the USA as if he had some damaging testimony to contribute. But according you .. he did not. So why was he killed if he was of no importance..you're the expert on this case, tell us.

Quoting GDB (Reply 25):
All you've done is make a lot of assumptions about me, not properly answered ANY of the points I made, indeed seem pretty upset that I dared to bring some rational argument, facts, examples of actual conspiracies (like Watergate) which happen to seriously undermine the fantasy world of huge conspiracy theories.

I've made no assumptions.. but when someone goes bonkers on someone calling them a 'drunk and a drug abuser' in order to discredit them in an opening salvo as you did, it is a common tactic by police and gov't agencies to cast someone in a very very negative light. It is also the sign of someone taking a very high moral ground which in itself is based on a false premise. Why? Because most of us either drink or did drink or use drugs - prescription or recreational..but for whatever reason can 'justify it'. So anyone trying to pull that moralistic crap in order to belittle someone else, it cancels out anything else coming after that person has taken such a stand say in my book.

Quoting GDB (Reply 25):
Do you think the Holocaust was faked? If not, why not? After all the 'historical reviewers' there use the same methods, same attacks and assumptions on those who deem to bring common sense into it, avoid or attack any living witnesses as being 'part of the plot' best - or worst - of all, many of the same people are into big conspiracy theories in general.

If the Holocaust was faked, then so was Hitler...he never existed. But unfortunately he did..and it did occur because fewer organizations or governments at the time kept as meticulous of records as did the Nazis.


You want to trash conspiracies? Trash this one. When Pat Tillman was killed after foregoing a multimillion dollar football contract.. we were BS'd about his killing from the very beginning. The truth was known within minutes as to what had actually occurred. But Washington decided to spin the story of Taliban attackers for days and weeks before being called on their lies by ---- the family itself. The media didn't help.. it carried the Official story as long as it could still too immersed in fear of challenging the gov't, they took the what they thought was the easy way out - believe the gov't no questions asked regardless of what the family said. Turns out the family, fighting tooth and nail against the gigantic US Gov't and the Pentagon - no help from the media, no help from cowardly citizens who wanted no part in that fight. And they go the 90% truth - which was 90% more than they started with. Not a single Congressman/woman helped them (shows you their lack of spine when the heat is on, they get scared too).

So.. although Tillman was worth mililons, and the 3000+ who perished on 9/11/01 were not.. yet do they deserve the same kind of justice and dogged determination for answers that the Tillman family went out and got for themselves? Or do they deserve any less? How many people wanted to shut the Tillman Family up because they were making people 'uncomfortable' attacking the gov't in manner they did. Quite a few. In the end, they were 100% correct in their conspiracy suspicions. They were right on the money and proved conspiracy was indeed at work. See the Pat Tillman Story film..regardless of what you think of the family, the footage before a congressional panel and the sniveling, evasive conniving conduct of Rumsfeld, McChrystal and the others is raw film footage that cannot be denied.

Lesson to be learned? If they'll pull that crap on a family with some financial standing..what will they pull on people who haven't a chance in hell to fight back? And believe you me, they pull the wool over the weak by minute if not more..that's where the doubt comes from - when authoritarian figures play it fast and loose believing they hold all the cards....and thus that's where suspicious conspiracies are born. And in some cases..rightfully so.

Why do 9/11 families who try to get the answers get called names and are trashed by people who want to silence them?Fear, that's why. A fear that 'what could be possible' is a truth that very few people could stomach. The rest of the people would rather not know anymore... they'd rather focus on the loss (as would the media) the pain and the hurt. People would rather just stay in that corner... not have the cajones to demand a complete picture and detailed explanation as every possible aspect of what occurred. Me? I say those 3000+ people deserve every ounce of what the Tillman family gave when it comes down to investigating their deaths.. if not more. It's a down right disgrace that so many Americans, who claim to be patriots and lovers of freedom and democracy ...think that those 3000+ ... do not.


BN747

[Edited 2011-09-08 13:23:13]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
flymia
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:23 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 28):
So.. although Tillman was worth mililons, and the 3000+ who perished on 9/11/01 were not..
Quoting BN747 (Reply 28):
If they'll pull that crap on a family with some financial standing..what

You want to talk about money being a factor you do realize many very wealthy people died that day. People that had more then a few million dollars Tillman may have had. He is an American Hero as all men and women fighting in the armed forces are. Especially those who gave their life for their country. But if your logic is right there are plenty of families and companies that could get the "truth" with money.
The Tillman thing was a mistake. Mistakes happen!

From wikipedia but it has credible sources linked to it:
"An investigation by the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command concluded that Tillman and the Afghan militia soldier were killed by friendly fire when one allied group fired upon another in confusion after nearby gunfire was mistakenly believed to be from enemy combatants. The CID Report summary, dated 19 March 2007, stated that: "during their movement through the canyon road, Serial 2 was ambushed and became engaged in a running gun battle with enemy combatants. Serial 1 [Tillman's portion of the platoon] had just passed through the same canyon without incident and were approximately one kilometer ahead of Serial 2. Upon hearing explosions, gunfire, and sporadic radio communication from Serial 2, Serial 1 dismounted their vehicles and moved on foot, to a more advantageous position to provide overwatch and fire support for Serial 2's movement out of the ambush." Upon exiting the gorge, and despite attempts by Serial 1 to signal a "friendly position," occupants of the lead vehicle of Serial 2 opened fire on Tillman's position, where he was fatally shot"
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
ltbewr
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:44 pm

Here is an article from Slate.com that discusses the 9/11 conspiracies along with their current and one time believers. I think it ties in very well with the theme of this thread: http://www.slate.com/id/2302852/
 
BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:17 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 29):
You want to talk about money being a factor you do realize many very wealthy people died that day. People that had more then a few million dollars Tillman may have had.

That may very well be true. And if their familes decided to spend money getting answers and not buying the gov't version..it is thinking like yours based on your comments that would try to shut them up and deny them their right to get the to bottom of unanswered questions. As well as those who were valued at far less.

Quoting flymia (Reply 29):
The Tillman thing was a mistake. Mistakes happen!

Your opinion..not the that of his family.

Quoting flymia (Reply 29):
From wikipedia but it has credible sources linked to it:
"An investigation by the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command concluded that Tillman and the Afghan militia soldier were killed by friendly fire when one allied group fired upon another in confusion after nearby gunfire was mistakenly believed to be from enemy combatants. The CID Report summary, dated 19 March 2007, stated that: "during their movement through the canyon road, Serial 2 was ambushed and became engaged in a running gun battle with enemy combatants.

You take wikipedia, I'll take my stand the Tillman Family film and actual testimony of the Pentagon Brass (our supposed bravest and top soldiers) before Congress and their obvious dodging of questions along with their own responsibilities for their blatant cover ups to save their own worthless skins. Instead of being men by acknowledging and owning up to their very own writings and documentation .. they hid behind the 5th and 'can't recall' charades.. as if anyone is that stupid to not see what they were pulling.

BN747

[Edited 2011-09-08 15:44:11]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
stratosphere
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:33 pm

My most amusing was watching Rosie O'Donnell on the View telling Elizabeth Hasselbeck that this is the first time in history fire has melted steel..lol....Guess she has never seen a cutting torch or been to a steel mill. That right there shows me her ignorance and willingness to believe anything. Actually it never had to melt the steel the fire weakened it so much it could not sustain itself and collapsed. I can understand conspiracy theories and how they get started. Actually the one I buy into more than 9/11 is the TWA 800 crash.
 
flymia
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 31):
You take wikipedia, I'll take my stand the Tillman Family film and actual testimony of the Pentagon Brass (our supposed bravest and top soldiers) before Congress and their obvious dodging of questions along with their own responsibilities for their blatant cover ups to save their own worthless skins. Instead of being men by acknowledging and owning up to their very own writings and documentation .. they hid behind the 5th and 'can't recall' charades.. as if anyone is that stupid to not see what they were pulling.

I took wikipedia which I stated "comes from a credible source." Thats what people who believe these things do a lot see/hear something and just take it to their own meaning. Like how saying they said "pull it" for WTC-7. That meant to implod it. Countless of other statements like that which make their stories not credible.
Here is my source: http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/CIDTillman.pdf

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
TWA 800 crash.

Wonder what the poster above you thinks of this too. It is more possible then 9/11 stuff but still what happened is what we know happened with the fuel tank ingition etc..
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:41 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 33):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 31):
You take wikipedia, I'll take my stand the Tillman Family film and actual testimony of the Pentagon Brass (our supposed bravest and top soldiers) before Congress and their obvious dodging of questions along with their own responsibilities for their blatant cover ups to save their own worthless skins. Instead of being men by acknowledging and owning up to their very own writings and documentation .. they hid behind the 5th and 'can't recall' charades.. as if anyone is that stupid to not see what they were pulling.

I took wikipedia which I stated "comes from a credible source." Thats what people who believe these things do a lot see/hear something and just take it to their own meaning. Like how saying they said "pull it" for WTC-7. That meant to implod it. Countless of other statements like that which make their stories not credible.
Here is my source: http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/CIDTillman.pdf

Who on earth (besides you) would take what the Military Times has to say about anything..when you can actually SEE the Top Brass and the DOD chief Honcho himself speaking about the issue before a Congressional Panel. Your perspective is like the Police who investigate 'themselves' and 'find themselves' NOT guilty of any wrongdoing. That's the most absurd concept ever.

Tell you what..you watch the film...and I'll read the Military Times version of events (although I already know what it says.

Oh and..

Quoting flymia (Reply 29):
The Tillman thing was a mistake. Mistakes happen!

It's not a mistake when it's not dark and the shooter shoots him right in the head from a few yards away. I know this is painful for you to hear.. but if you really care, go a little beyond the military times. Try something that's doesn't have to be 'cleared' by the same scoundrels (military brass) who tried to BS the Tillman Family and the American public. And other than wikipedia. It's all there..all it requires is the stomach to look it.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
flymia
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:49 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
Who on earth (besides you) would take what the Military Times has to say about anything..when you can actually

The link leads to an Internal Memo for the US Army Criminal Investigation Command. A report investiaged by Civilian Special Agents. Yes I know you will say this does not matter since it was done by the US Government etc.. But this was not an article. Maybe you should open the link first. Again not looking at all the facts..  
Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
It's not a mistake when it's not dark and the shooter shoots him right in the head from a few yards away. I know this is painful for you to hear.. but if you really care, go a little beyond the military times. Try something that's doesn't have to be 'cleared' by the same scoundrels (military brass) who tried to BS the Tillman Family and the American public. And other than wikipedia. It's all there..all it requires is the stomach to look it.

I was refering to the intial reports.
Do you think he was murdered? Someone hated him because he was an NFL player? I dont understand where you coming from here.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:03 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 35):
The link leads to an Internal Memo for the US Army Criminal Investigation Command. A report investiaged by Civilian Special Agents.

If those Civilian Special Agents were paid by the Army/Military/US Gov't they're about as independent as the Iranian News Agency. If they were paid for by a stand alone civilian org any 3rd (non-political) party. I'm all for it.

Quoting flymia (Reply 35):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
It's not a mistake when it's not dark and the shooter shoots him right in the head from a few yards away. I know this is painful for you to hear.. but if you really care, go a little beyond the military times. Try something that's doesn't have to be 'cleared' by the same scoundrels (military brass) who tried to BS the Tillman Family and the American public. And other than wikipedia. It's all there..all it requires is the stomach to look it.

I was refering to the intial reports.
Do you think he was murdered? Someone hated him because he was an NFL player? I dont understand where you coming from here.

Flymia, if you really want to know more, see the documentaries on the subject and/or Netflix it & see the film. What you'll find is 'Tillman started making waves' when he was in Iraq, before he went to Afghanistan. There's much more to the story than you think. Much much more.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:43 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 35):
The link leads to an Internal Memo for the US Army Criminal Investigation Command. A report investiaged by Civilian Special Agents. Yes I know you will say this does not matter since it was done by the US Government etc.. But this was not an article. Maybe you should open the link first. Again not looking at all the facts..  

Another reason I don't believe many conspiracy theorists, facts don't mean anything!
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
flymia
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:46 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 36):
Flymia, if you really want to know more, see the documentaries on the subject and/or Netflix it & see the film. What you'll find is 'Tillman started making waves' when he was in Iraq, before he went to Afghanistan. There's much more to the story than you think. Much much more.

Well much too busy with school work but maybe I will look into it in a few months over winter break.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
Another reason I don't believe many conspiracy theorists, facts don't mean anything!

Yes, much of the time they dont. It is pretty frustrating. Or they twist the facts for their side etc..
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
EZEIZA
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:59 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):
I always loved that rationale: if the government is that incompetent, how the hell are they able to keep such a huge secret?

I am not a theorist, not even close, but the answer to that particular question would be that they were not able to keep the secret. Let's for a second assume some of the conspiracy theories are true. Then the government, in it's incompetence, has not been able to shut them up, and that's why they are there in the first place.

Having said that, and again I don't believe in conspiracies for 9/11, I do believe that we have not been told the whole story. I don't know what's missing, but I've always had the feeling that something was not right.

Regarding the government, I am not surprised by it's incompetence. Ultimately, the government is responsable for the well being of its population, and they miserably failed on 9/11.

Damn .. 10 years already ... sad memories are coming back
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BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:53 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 33):
I took wikipedia which I stated "comes from a credible source." Thats what people who believe these things do a lot see/hear something and just take it to their own meaning. Like how saying they said "pull it" for WTC-7. That meant to implod it. Countless of other statements like that which make their stories not credible.

You're dead wrong on that one too. That is a fact.. do even know who said that?

The owner of the WTC Larry Silverstein, he is on videotape in an interview saying exactly that. Google/youtube his name and 'pull it'... and see/hear those words come from his mouth. Paraphrasing Silverstein, 'There had been such terrible loss of life that day, I just told FDNY.. to pull it'

Who's credible now? Facts you say? That one is a F.A.C.T! A colossal fact. Probably the most damning of all. Why? Because wiring a building to implode like that takes longer than 1 hour. Unless Jack Bauer or Fiona (from Burn Notice) is on the job. Besides, with everyone evacuating and Fire crews trying in vain to dig and find their brethren in the aftermath were not in spare numbers to do the job. Nonetheless that's what Silverstein said.

Quoting flymia (Reply 38):
quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
Another reason I don't believe many conspiracy theorists, facts don't mean anything!

Yes, much of the time they dont. It is pretty frustrating. Or they twist the facts for their side etc..


See the above fact..or like you said..."facts don't mean anything.


BN747
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David L
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:40 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
You're dead wrong on that one too. That is a fact.. do even know who said that?

I don't think anyone's denying it was said. What most of us have a hard time believing is that the building's owner authorised the fire department to demolish it with pre-laid explosives rather than meaning "don't waste any more time and resources on that building". It's a heck of a lot of baggage to attach to the interpretation of one little phrase.
 
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:04 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
as to the WTC attacks, how is it 2 planes were able to hit the towers in such a way to cause their total collaspe

Easy, the design of the towers were their Achilles heel on that day. Those buildings were designed to be light and have a hollow centre to make the office section as open concept as possible. Meaning that most the support was on the outside and all the stairs and lifts were in the the centre section. It also made escape on the floors above the impacts impossible.

This would have never happened to the Empire State building because its a concrete fortress, which handles fire damage much better than steel.

When the planes hit the fires sufficiently weakened the steel to cause enough of a failure to cause the collapse and gravity took over. The building might not have looked it but they were essentially hollow structures that pancaked.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
the failures of President Bush to take immediate actions with the memo of 8/7/01 warning of near term attacks by al-Queda

I don't defend Bush on a lot but "Bin Laden determined to attack in United States" is a very vague memo and even if they beefed up a lot of security it might not have prevented the attack.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
the failures and incompentence of the FBI, CIA, airlines, airport secuity to prevent them.

  

Maybe American's can explain this but why do you have 3 different intelligence agencies and now basically a 4th with Homeland security. Can't you have one that does everything and be done with it, also if you must have so many share the intelligence with the other ones.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 32):
My most amusing was watching Rosie O'Donnell on the View telling Elizabeth Hasselbeck that this is the first time in history fire has melted steel..lol....Guess she has never seen a cutting torch or been to a steel mill.

The steel didn't melt. You need a really high temperature to melt steel, most cutting torches use an oxygen based fuel that burns much hotter because its a white flame.

The flames from in the WTC were dark and therefore cold by comparison.

Fires from Jet A and any basic office equipment that burns are not hot enough to melt steel, however it weakens it. quite significantly and in the case of the collapse and unfortunately for the WTC the fires weakened the steel too much to unable to hold the load of the floors above.  .
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:57 am

These theories always seem to come from those that can't handle simple truths. 9/11 being a good example.
I've not seem anything that supports the theories in reality. There's meanings attached to words, that could mean something different to what they seem, if you really stretch the meanings of words. There's the theories put forward that aren't supported by reality, ie the collapse of the twin towers can't have happened as the result of a plane crash and fire. As has been pointed out a number of times here, thats not a theory thats supportable by the real world.
All these daft ideas are as sensible and as water holding as Lord Lucan riding Shergar was in fact the case of the death of the former Princess of Wales!
The sad part about most of these theories, is that for some reason perfectly normal half way intelligent people, let it take over their lives to an extent that they suspend belief in reality in their obsession to prove that they are right.
As BN747 neatly demonstrates with his half knowledge of something that happened in the UK, and was reported in the US press, the media probably helps to spread these bits of silliness.
 
flymia
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:13 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
The owner of the WTC Larry Silverstein, he is on videotape in an interview saying exactly that. Google/youtube his name and 'pull it'... and see/hear those words come from his mouth. Paraphrasing Silverstein, 'There had been such terrible loss of life that day, I just told FDNY.. to pull it'
Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Who's credible now? Facts you say? That one is a F.A.C.T! A colossal fact. Probably the most damning of all. Why? Because wiring a building to implode like that takes longer than 1 hour. Unless Jack Bauer or Fiona (from Burn Notice) is on the job. Besides, with everyone evacuating and Fire crews trying in vain to dig and find their brethren in the aftermath were not in spare numbers to do the job. Nonetheless that's what Silverstein said.

So lets just say your right. Which you are not. The pull term was used to say stuff such as any type of efforts to contain any fire and get everyone away and out of the building. But lets just say it was a demo. Which takes days to weeks to correctly tear down a building. But again lets just say your right.

WHY? Why would they want to tear down WTC-7?

[Edited 2011-09-09 07:13:57]
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:22 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 42):
Easy, the design of the towers were their Achilles heel on that day. Those buildings were designed to be light and have a hollow centre to make the office section as open concept as possible. Meaning that most the support was on the outside and all the stairs and lifts were in the the centre section. It also made escape on the floors above the impacts impossible.

This would have never happened to the Empire State building because its a concrete fortress, which handles fire damage much better than steel.

  

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 42):
When the planes hit the fires sufficiently weakened the steel to cause enough of a failure to cause the collapse and gravity took over. The building might not have looked it but they were essentially hollow structures that pancaked.

A lot of people focus on the fire, but let's not forget the aircraft left huge gaping holes that severed much of the structure, including steel. You can see bent and severed steel in closeup photos of the impact areas. Every piece of support structure in a building plays a role in keeping a building standing. You remove any piece, the structural integrity becomes compromised. You had large portions of the towers sitting on top of weakened or missing support. It's like playing a game of Jenga. Remove a few pieces 2/3 up and the top 1/3 becomes unstable. So the extra weight on the remaining supports was putting stress beyond their designed limits and it gave way. You can see, especially with the Tower 2 collapse, it first buckles on the corner where the large impact hole was, and the top portion fell at an angle, falling in the direction of the hole.

The energy of the impact shot up and down the towers and the subsequent fires weakened the towers internally. Reports from victims and survivors mentioned floors collapsing inside long before the towers fell.

Oh and one more part that often gets overlooked. When the planes hit at over 400 mph, the towers swayed like a car radio antenna. They swayed severely causing floors and offices to shift, buckle and twist as reported by people inside.

Controlled demolition uses explosive charges to weaken key support structures so they give out and collapse. What I just described above effectively achieved the same thing over a longer period of time.
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StarAC17
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:39 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 45):
A lot of people focus on the fire, but let's not forget the aircraft left huge gaping holes that severed much of the structure, including steel. You can see bent and severed steel in closeup photos of the impact areas.


Fair enough, but I would think that the steel would have had a factor of safety sufficient to hold the support of the buildings up even when losing a side of the building (lets say 1/4 to 1/3 of the support) which makes me think that fire damage also contributed to it as well as a whole support section being destroyed.

Also I know that with this design the floors are heavily weight restricted. I worked in First Canadian Place in Toronto for BMO which has the same design as the WTC and often they had to move files off site which tells me that they didn't want to overload the supports in the floors.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 45):
The energy of the impact shot up and down the towers and the subsequent fires weakened the towers internally. Reports from victims and survivors mentioned floors collapsing inside long before the towers fell.

  

This made the collapses look as spectacular and fast as they did, the outside supports when they finally went had nothing to stop them if the floors which were made of truss structures which are light had already collapsed.
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BN747
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:58 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 41):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
You're dead wrong on that one too. That is a fact.. do even know who said that?

I don't think anyone's denying it was said.

This person just did...

Quoting flymia (Reply 33):
Like how saying they said "pull it" for WTC-7. That meant to implod it. Countless of other statements like that which make their stories not credible.

Her said...'Countless other statements like that which make their stories not credible'...how can you read what someone wrote and turn to say 'I don't think anyone's denying it was said..'? That 'anyone' you speak of...just did!

Quoting bjcc (Reply 43):
As BN747 neatly demonstrates with his half knowledge of something that happened in the UK, and was reported in the US press, the media probably helps to spread these bits of silliness.

So because I quoted a story exactly how the media reported it here in the US, now I've demonstrated 'neatly' as you put it .. this...

Quoting bjcc (Reply 43):
The sad part about most of these theories, is that for some reason perfectly normal half way intelligent people, let it take over their lives to an extent that they suspend belief in reality in their obsession to prove that they are right.

..thanks for the half compliment and insult rolled into one? If you're slamming me for quoting news as it was reported, then you are condemning every person who has quoted any news media source ever..which would be everyone here..including yourself. I'm sure you've quoted media sources as well.

"Take over my life", you have no idea what you're talking about..what else about my life do you know? Since you have the temerity to make such broad generalizations?


It amazes me that how people can anally extract ideas about what they 'know' about others lives based on things they do themselves.

I guess it's fair to conclude that since you accuse people of 'buying into 'conspiratorial conduct/behavior' as people wasting their time and living in a bubble... that you don't believe in the equation of 'great power and wealth' needs conspiracy (to be clear - as those with great power & wealth..don't conspire to maintain it? Is that what you're saying. Because if it is..I've listed examples from the Roman Empire era to this very day (Pat Tillman episode) where that is proven without question. And that's history speaking for itself. So if the history (of power and conspiracy are wrong)..where do you get your foundation for being 'right'? I suspect .. the greatest 'reservoir of denial', usually that resides within the human mind.


Some of us remember the days BEFORE A.net was cleaned up, when certain individuals who are no longer here 'conspired' among themselves as moderators - to explicitly f*ck with people by banning them on a whim for the hell of it but mostly because 'they didn't like them'. So here we have (back then) a free website, no money or wealth involved.. but the power to 'shut people up and/or locked them out arbitrarily without valid reason or cause' and they were having a field day doing it..even sending personal messages to the people to rub salt into the wound if you will. So if people are capable of 'lording over and conspiring against others' over a simple internet site....a free internet chat board, to bully other members rendering them unable to lash back, what does that say about people when money is involved..to what extent will they go then? That example is the best I can think of when observing the use of power by an average everyday person - to see how they react with just a modicum of power over others. And even, the conspiring begins and the corrupted behavior takes over,leading the fiasco resulting in their dismissal. One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to conclude that people are corrupt. And easily so. Move beyond the internet, to real life. Since my sharing of the real life proof of Generals & Sec of Defense lying and being corrupt to save their own asses (aka Pat Tillman saga) is not proof enough for you that power 'invites corruption and conspiracy' then perhaps, something on local personal level is in order


...ever see a supervisor play favorites among employees? I'm guessing that doesn't exist in your world as well.
(you can probably find an A.net member here that that has happened to in the search archives - but when I saw it.. according to you, it could not have been true)

..people hiring others to kill their spouse/biz partners - never really happens.. people just read it all wrong.

...ever heard of police conspiring with lies to cover up their bad deeds, no? I guess that doesn't exist either?
(google 'police cover up' in any major city on the planet - that's conspiracy at work, I know..but not to you)

... how about consumer real estate scams, the news media must be making that up too.
(let me guess, you buy the 'it 's a one time thing' story)

... a favorite item in SoCal news a lot, supermarket chains conspiring by "accidentally" over charging shoppers - they pay a fine then return to do it repeatedly year after year - I guess the news agencies fabricate that as well (it seems Ralphs here in LA is guilty of it every 3 years). But but... that can't real, it's imagined.. right?

.. working our way up the ladder here if you can't see the pattern that's emerging..

...House Leaders Tom Delay, John Tower, Jim Wright, Tip O'Neill and a slew of others, conspiring and taking bribes and forced to retire (or carted off to jail) but 'nooooo..' they weren't really corrupt or didn't conspire anything .. the news and law enforcement agencies must have gotten that all wrong - nahhhh it's just a BIG misunderstanding.

.. the Dept. of Defense/Pentagon (again) Pat Tillman uber obvious coverup attempt til they were busted-

..would (what I call the biggest criminal empire on the planet) the Catholic Church/the Vatican dare be involved in conspiracy to cover knowingly hiding pedophile priest? From where you stand...drat! Another bogus conspiracy!

Sooo with Nixon's big misunderstanding, and Hitler's little problem with Jews, Stalins many angry, sleepless nights... I can only conclude - it must be great, to live in a world where conspiracy to all these things 'do not' exist. Corruption may exist..but none of them conspired. And it only existed because they got caught. Am I correct to accept that 'had they not be caught convicted and prosecuted'..that for all intents and purposes... corruption and the accompanying conspiratorial acts actually do not exist. Or is it that it's only real when an arrest is made - but other than that, it's al made up.

...all joking aside, in the face of all those factual occurrences and sterling examples of pure corruption driven by greed and enforced and executed only through conspiracy - how anyone could claim to know the limits of conspiratorial conduct, all I can say is that fella should write the next Bible, because the individual who claims to know exactly what humans 'in power' are capable of and what they are not - you sir, are the one to find the Higgs Boson/God particle and thus the missing element to solving the mystery of the universe.

In all the examples list above, if any reader agrees with them.. he or she, by default subscribes to the belief that 'power & wealth needs conspiracy' in order to succeed. It indeed is a necessary component.

And we never got into corporate conspiratorial works, which I've seen up close and personal - they put then mafia to shame. But I'm certain you think that too...is imaginary.

Yet it leaves with this one and crucial question, any of you who have taken the position that 'conspiracies don't exist' or that they do exist to a point.

..tell me where is that point? Where is that imaginary line that say conspiracy comes to a singularity as they say in the quantum world. Please explain your knowledge as to how you know for fact that humans reach a point that they will not cross. This ought to be a doozy!

Quoting flymia (Reply 44):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
The owner of the WTC Larry Silverstein, he is on videotape in an interview saying exactly that. Google/youtube his name and 'pull it'... and see/hear those words come from his mouth. Paraphrasing Silverstein, 'There had been such terrible loss of life that day, I just told FDNY.. to pull it'
Quoting BN747 (Reply 40):
Who's credible now? Facts you say? That one is a F.A.C.T! A colossal fact. Probably the most damning of all. Why? Because wiring a building to implode like that takes longer than 1 hour. Unless Jack Bauer or Fiona (from Burn Notice) is on the job. Besides, with everyone evacuating and Fire crews trying in vain to dig and find their brethren in the aftermath were not in spare numbers to do the job. Nonetheless that's what Silverstein said.

So lets just say your right. Which you are not.

How am I not right? I merely quoted the owner of the WTC saying exactly what he said..?! I added nothing, subtracted nothing.. it stands on it's own merit. He said it not me. Can you prove he didn't say it? Because I can prove he did. If you're too lazy to look it up..google is your friend.

Quoting flymia (Reply 44):
The pull term was used to say stuff such as any type of efforts to contain any fire and get everyone away and out of the building.

I see.. is that you personally speaking or have you been recently hired as the personal interpreter for the owner of the WTC?

Quoting flymia (Reply 44):
But lets just say it was a demo. Which takes days to weeks to correctly tear down a building. But again lets just say your right.

WHY? Why would they want to tear down WTC-7?

Since you've done a great job of 'conveying' exactly what the WTC owner meant by his very words...I can only surmise that you must know the answer to that as well. You won't even make the time to investigate your own claims about Pat Tillman's case.. why should get into that can worms with you - for the sake of an argument? I've got better things to do...like figure out how this UFO landed on my car and which tow truck company to call to remove it. I don't think my AAA policy covers that.


BN747

[Edited 2011-09-09 11:21:14]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 47):

Blah blah no where in there is gonna make me believe that dozens and dozens, maybe even hundreds of Americans, pulled off 9/11 without getting caught and no one has spoken up. Possible? Sure, but when given the odds of 1:1,000,000 to 3:4, I'm gonna pick the most likely. No one is denying corruption or corruption in high places. But a 9/11 size operation?? Especially when evidence like hologram plane/missiles (which is BS) and the words "pull it" (that can mean 1000 different things) is thrown in the mix, you can't wonder why no one takes conspiracy theorists seriously..
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GDB
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 28):
If he were such a small cog...then why was he killed? Remember it was reported here in the USA as if he had some damaging testimony to contribute. But according you .. he did not. So why was he killed if he was of no importance..you're the expert on this case, tell us.

There you go again, seen the autopsy? No. Seen anything credible to support your wild assumption? No.
Got any idea of what you are talking about? Seems not.
I am not the 'expert' (what is it with you and this jumping to assumptions about subjects you know little about (as YOU admitted) and people you don't know at all?
All I've done is follow the story with interest over some years in the serious media, not the Alice in Wonderland world you seem to inhabit.

Your lack of serious answers to fair questions, self admitted lack of knowledge and aggressive, snarky attitude towards those who at least have been following a subject, along with the avoiding an answer with another (usually irrelevant) question/attacking and assuming stuff about those asking those questions, is classic conspiracy stuff, the '9/11 Truthers', Holocaust Deniers etc, all do this.

You are perfectly free to make yourself look very silly on here, don't expect to be taken at all seriously however.
Question, (though I expect the answer, if there is one, to be more like the script for the Eric Cartman character from South Park alas, anyway, you tell us why none of these types who peddle (and profit) from all this nonsense, are not renditioned to some CIA facility outside the US? To keep them quiet. To hide these massive plots that they have uncovered?

Another conspiracy, those prisons, that WAS real, that also got found out (by serious people), despite being a tiny fraction of the size of the rubbish you seem so fixated on.
Real because like other actual ones, it was based on short term political expediency, was pretty small scale, was clumsy and pretty incompetent. Still got busted though.

[Edited 2011-09-09 12:14:11]
 
David L
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RE: Where Did The 9/11 Conspiracies Come From?

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:12 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 47):
This person just did...

Quoting flymia (Reply 33):
Like how saying they said "pull it" for WTC-7. That meant to implod it. Countless of other statements like that which make their stories not credible.

It never occurred to you that he meant the same as I did - that interpreting the phrase "pull it" as meaning "to implode it" is a huge leap in logic?

Let's assume that someone did deny it was said. Does the phrase now mean "implode it"?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 47):
how can you read what someone wrote and turn to say 'I don't think anyone's denying it was said..'? That 'anyone' you speak of...just did!

Are you sure?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 48):
I'm gonna pick the most likely.

How naive.  

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