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fxramper
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Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:04 am



Would you vote for her in a primary against Obama? What about the general election?

  

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Aloha717200
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:28 am

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):
Would you vote for her in a primary against Obama? What about the general election?

Yes and Yes.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:31 am

I don't know if Hillary is still interested, but there are an awful lot of Dems who have come to the realization that Obama is not competent to do the job, and intensely decisive.

Matt Stoller from Salon.com

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/w...011/09/04/favoritesonsanddaughters

Quote:
George W. Bush's approval rating didn't drop this low until Katrina hit. And on the economy, 71 percent of Americans disapprove of how Obama is doing his job. Even among reliably Democratic groups -- union households, women and young people -- he's now unpopular.

No one, not even the president's defenders, expect his coming jobs speech to mean anything. When the president spoke during a recent market swoon, the market dropped another 100 points. Democrats may soon have to confront an uncomfortable truth, and ask whether Obama is a suitable choice at the top of the ticket in 2012. They may then have to ask themselves if there's any way they can push him off the top of the ticket.

...

Obama has ruined the Democratic Party.

As a typical Democrat will do, Mr. Stoller blames this all on the fact that Obama wasn’t liberal enough. He doesn’t note that the majority of Americans consider themselves Conservatives of course, but eh…what else can a liberal do other than to wax philosophically about how great it would have been if only the liberal dream of rainbows and unicorns would have been faithfully executed.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/148745/Po...-Stable-Conservatives-Leading.aspx

Either way, it won’t happen. The Democrats pushed Obama as The One, the game changer, the greatest thing since sliced bread…they were blinded by the fact that this man was black, and "historic", instead of looking at the fact that this man had done NOTHING to suggest he was capable of leading this country. And now they have to deal with the failure he has become. Unfortunately, so do we, but not for much longer.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
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fxramper
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:51 am

Quoting fxramper (Thread starter):

Oh just for the heck of it, I'd hit it.   

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):

If Mittens some how pulls out the GOP nod I'm voting for her too.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:54 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
He doesn’t note that the majority of Americans consider themselves Conservatives

For once we agree on something, Dreadnought. A statistical majority of Americans do consider themselves conservative. Obama's biggest problem, and what a lot of liberals fail to see, is that it isn't the fact that he didn't push hard enough left...it's that he didn't show a backbone.

I like Obama as a person, I'm sure he's a great guy and a very affable person to work with...but the man compromises so much that he seems weak as a result. It's not that America wants someone inflexible in their agenda...that can be very dangerous. We just want a President that acts like he actually has a pair. Presidents who stand up and fight for their goals are inspirational to the rest of us, they make us feel secure and powerful ourselves as we have a leader that acts like a leader.

When our leader, though, comes across as a wimp, we feel less secure. Liberals don't trust Obama because he doesn't fight very hard for even those principles that are important to himself....and has basically, over the course of his presidency, allowed Conservatives to shape the debate. Obama talks about compromise, but he really comes across as a door mat.

That is why he will lose in 2012. We liked in 2008 how Obama seemed reasonable compared to the rigidness of Bush, and the fiery temper of McCain. But 4 years on we find that Obama is too reasonable. He doesn't put up a fight.

For the the last three years he's walked right into a nicely laid trap...working hard to compromise with a party that wants nothing more than to see him defeated. Smart politicians know that the President gets blamed when things aren't going well, and while the media loves to hype the ultra-low 24% approval rating of Congress, the truth is that statistic means absolute diddly. The Republicans blocked and fillibustered any good agenda Obama may have had knowing full well that the man would cave, and that the man would be blamed for the failure of said agenda. It's worked very well and Obama's over-reasonable approach has blinded him to the reality that he really is being taken for a ride. That's not very inspiring. And it won't win him re-election.


It's funny. If Obama is replaced at the top of the ticket, every news media outlet out there will point out that anytime a sitting President has been challenged for the nomination, a) the sitting president won the nomination anyway, and b) the sitting president always lost the general election as a result of the damage caused by being challenged for the nomination in the first place.


Democrats have a raw deal this time around. We can't win with Obama, and we can't win if someone challenges him...unless that challenger wins the nomination. Even then, it's a long shot.

I'm not a betting man, but I'd put money on a Republican residing in the White House come January, 2013. It's too bad. Obama had so much promise.

[Edited 2011-09-07 19:59:57]
 
Superfly
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:36 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 1):
Yes and Yes.

  
Same here.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
there are an awful lot of Dems who have come to the realization that Obama is not competent to do the job, and intensely decisive.

...and I'm one of those Democrats.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 3):
Oh just for the heck of it, I'd hit it.

No you would NOT!   
Please don't joke like that! You are scaring me!   

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 4):
I like Obama as a person, I'm sure he's a great guy and a very affable person to work with...

Me too. As I've said before, I'd like to have a beer summit with Obama and talk some sense in to him. Barack Obama should have gone in to acting instead of politics. He would have been a tremendous actor and everyone would love him in that arena. Obama isn't cut out for politics.
As far as working with Obama, he'd be a great boss because I know he'd give me a raise every time I'd asked for one. Even if I didn't show up for work. 
Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 4):
while the media loves to hype the ultra-low 24% approval rating of Congress, the truth is that statistic means absolute diddly.

Very true. People may not like Congress but most like their own Congressman.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 4):
The Republicans blocked and fillibustered any good agenda Obama may have had knowing full well that the man would cave, and that the man would be blamed for the failure of said agenda.

Well that is debatable. Obama's agenda was mostly new rules & regulations. That is not a good thing. I am so glad that the Republicans and a handful of level-headed Democrats killed the job killing Cap & Trade bill.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 4):
Democrats have a raw deal this time around. We can't win with Obama, and we can't win if someone challenges him...unless that challenger wins the nomination. Even then, it's a long shot.

The best thing for Obama to do at this point is to not seek a 2nd term.
Bring back the Concorde
 
gigneil
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:45 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
No you would NOT!   

Yes he would. He really, really would.

Also, I'd vote for Hillary instead of Obama. Honestly, I would. I think Obama is a great guy with great ideas and no idea how to execute.

NS
 
dxing
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:48 am

Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

That's not exactly what he said.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/2083...n-barack-obama-in-my-time-book.htm

Cheney has been making media rounds to promote his new memoir, "In My Time." He noted in the interview that he wasn't exactly endorsing Clinton, who serves as Secretary of State under Obama and was the former First Lady for two terms while her husband, Bill Clinton was president. But I don't want to be the position of endorsing Hillary Clinton," Cheney told Wallace. "That might be the kiss of death for her." Cheney continued, saying he wouldn't mind seeing Clinton challenge Obama for the Democratic party's 2012 nomination. "You wouldn't discourage it," Wallace asked. "No," Cheney said. "Certainly not. I think it would be good for the Tea Party system."
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:32 am

Yes and yes. I voted for Obama and have been rather disappointed. I think Hillary would have done a better job. Really hope she runs in 2016 but doubt she will.

[Edited 2011-09-07 23:34:46]
 
airtran737
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:31 am

Quoting fxramper (Reply 3):
Oh just for the heck of it, I'd hit it.

You sick bastard. Having sex with Hillary would be like pulling apart a grilled cheese sandwich.

Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
Rara
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:33 am

Want an outside perspective? Obama is a fine president, it's the economy that's crap, and he can do very little to fix it (despite, of course, his affirmations of the contrary). In today's globalized economy, the possibilities of national governments to exert influence on economic development are increasingly limited, and your high debt doesn't help. America would be in a very similar situation now under both Clinton and McCain. If the economy picks up before the next election, we'll likely see Obama II. If not, we don't. Unfair or not, that's how it works.

Also - can you say sexist? The topic of a female politician comes up, and all you guys can think of is whether or not to "hit" her? I'm not one of the PC crowd, but come on. That stimulus-response set seems a little too short-wired here. "Look, a woman! Sex?"
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rfields5421
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:27 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):
it's the economy that's crap, and he can do very little to fix it

I agree with you - especially that the President has little to no ability to really make the economy better.

However, it does not matter. It is his JOB to make the country better, and no matter what the factors beyond his control - if the economy is crap - it is his fault.

A big part of being President is being responsible for things which he really cannot control or influence. Sometimes bad luck has more to do with the effectiveness of a President than his policies.

Re: Hillary

The possibility of a serious challenge to Obama in the primaries does exist in my opinion, however, she needs to resign as Secretary of State before Jan 1. Overall, no way she is going to run in my opinion.

Campaigning for President while still on the Cabinet would be a very bad idea.

Hillary and Bill Clinton have shown the ability to raise more money from Democratic Party supporters than President Obama, but they are far, far behind what he has raised so far for the 2012 race.

I don't think the way the Democratic Party primary system works to provide delegates to the convention - it would be very hard to take the nomination away from Obama.

Had the Democratic Party primaries worked like the Republican Party primaries, Hillary would have locked up the 2008 nomination by the end of March in 2008.

Re: November General Election

The only way possible for the Republicans to lose the 2012 election is for the Democrats to nominate someone other than President Obama - who could campaign on a change of direction promise.

That won't happen.

PS - for those who think President Obama is being punished for the policies of the past president, and the failure to recover the economy is not his fault - take heart. The Republican winner in 2012 is going to have the same problems in will likely be thrown out in 2016 because of the economy and jobs not getting better by them.

We're going to have another exodus of jobs overseas, lower wages, higher unemployment in 2013 after the Republican president is sworn in - and it won't be fixed during his administration.

It is probably going to be 2024 or 2030 before the people of the United States adjust to the realization that the policies of a global economy started in the 80s and 90s, along with technology growth have changed the world. We will never be back to the 'good days' of the 60s or 80s.
 
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:58 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):
Want an outside perspective? Obama is a fine president, it's the economy that's crap, and he can do very little to fix it (despite, of course, his affirmations of the contrary).

I will typically acquiesce the point that every president gets too much credit and/or blame for the overall macroeconomy.

HOWEVER, in the case of Obama, this is an administration and president that has absolutely taken every misstep imaginable and done so deliberately. He CAN in fact help fix the economy by getting the F out of the way of Americans and letting them fix it. Government doesn't create jobs. Americans do. Companies do. Small businesses do.

Stop encouraging job-killing legislation, stop with the over-regulation, stop with the haughty preachy speeches and let us LIVE, work, and win. Stop Obamacare. Stop the demagoguery.

There is zero confidence out there right now. Our nation is broke, we are at the edge of the abyss and his answer is to spend MORE?!?!? That's exactly the opposite of what should be done. The porkulus wasn't shovel-ready, still isn't, and hasn't created jobs.

Our monetary policy is totally screwed. The so-called "quantitative easing" is nothing but printing money--and the consequences of that will be (and already are starting to show) disastrous.

This administration has taken every wrong-headed move and done so with the desire to--in Obama's OWN words--transform America into the vision he has for it. And had he been properly vetted and the media not failed maybe people would have woken up to the realization that Obama is in fact a Marxist by training and indoctrination. His answer is more government power. Less individual freedom. Less liberty. More dependence on Washington.


Quoting Rara (Reply 10):
Also - can you say sexist? The topic of a female politician comes up, and all you guys can think of is whether or not to "hit" her? I'm not one of the PC crowd, but come on. That stimulus-response set seems a little too short-wired here. "Look, a woman! Sex?"

I agree completely... I dislike Hillary's politics immensely. But whether female, male, or a Wookiee, at this point, I don't care WHO the next president is as long as he or she has an adherence to the Constitution and gets this runaway Federal goliath in check.
 
D L X
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:22 pm

Who cares what Dick wants?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
He doesn’t note that the majority of Americans consider themselves Conservatives of course,

Because that is not true.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:36 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
HOWEVER, in the case of Obama, this is an administration and president that has absolutely taken every misstep imaginable and done so deliberately. He CAN in fact help fix the economy by getting the F out of the way of Americans and letting them fix it. Government doesn't create jobs. Americans do. Companies do. Small businesses do.

A question for you: Do you agree or disagree with the Public Works projects that FDR set in motion during the depression to put people to work? In my town we still have and take advantage of projects that the PWA built. It sounds to me like Obama wants to do something similar.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:55 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
He doesn’t note that the majority of Americans consider themselves Conservatives of course,

If the majority of American's consider themselves Conservatives, why don't conservatives dominate our Congress? If the majority of American's consider themselves Conservatives, why do they support programs like Social Security and Medicare...programs which are the anti-thesis of conservative theory.

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
He CAN in fact help fix the economy by getting the F out of the way of Americans and letting them fix it.

But the Americans with all the wealth and power in this nation don't want it fixed. While times have been tough for many Americans, those at the very top are enjoying unprecedented wealth. Why should they change the status quo? The top 10% of Americans are rolling in more money than ever before.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:30 pm

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 4):
I like Obama as a person, I'm sure he's a great guy and a very affable person to work with..

I used to think the same thing, but have come to the conclusion that he is egotistical and petulant. I can't hang with someone like that.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 4):
The Republicans blocked and fillibustered any good agenda Obama may have had knowing full well that the man would cave, and that the man would be blamed for the failure of said agenda.

I've said it before, the only concessions that were made by President Obama (on his major legislative agenda) were made to get more Democrats to his side. Look at the vote tallies...the only thing bi-partisan about most of that legislation was the opposition.

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):
Obama is a fine president, it's the economy that's crap, and he can do very little to fix it (despite, of course, his affirmations of the contrary).

No, he is not a fine president. The president set the tone of the government. President Obama's tone has always been anti-rich, anti-business, anti-wealth. His policies have failed to revive the economy because those that are the job creators are fearful of what President Obama may propose next.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 14):
A question for you: Do you agree or disagree with the Public Works projects that FDR set in motion during the depression to put people to work? In my town we still have and take advantage of projects that the PWA built. It sounds to me like Obama wants to do something similar.

The FDR projects were different than just about anything President Obama may try now. Dams, roads, utilities, etc. were not in existence during FDR's time. Their construction, while keeping the US in depression, enabled growth when the US finally climbed out of The Great Depression. That is government's job: to provide an environment where wealth can be created. President Obama is doing the opposite by blaming and attacking the wealth creators.

As for Hillary Clinton...She would have made a fine president. I wouldn't have voted for her, but, I'm thinking she would have beaten Senator McCain and she would have done much better as President than President Obama.

She is also the only one that could challenge President Obama in a primary challenge and come away a winner. But, I don't think she'd do it.
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gigneil
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:03 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
Stop Obamacare.

Ugh. We NEED Obamacare. 50 million Americans don't have healthcare.

It doesn't affect you at all. How can you possibly oppose it? Your taxes haven't and will not go up or down, in fact there hasn't been a meaningful change in our tax rates in our LIFETIMES.

If you don't want it, generally its because you hate poor people.

NS
 
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:08 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):
Obama is a fine president, it's the economy that's crap, and he can do very little to fix it (despite, of course, his affirmations of the contrary).

If that were true then the American people are really ignorant and stupid to have voted for him - the majority of which did so because they believed he would fix the economy. For that matter, most people in other countries - your own flag as well - vote with their pocketbooks. Did you ever hear of the old adage - coined by a recent Democratic President's campaign staff - "It's the economy, stupid"?

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
HOWEVER, in the case of Obama, this is an administration and president that has absolutely taken every misstep imaginable and done so deliberately. He CAN in fact help fix the economy by getting the F out of the way of Americans and letting them fix it. Government doesn't create jobs. Americans do. Companies do. Small businesses do.

  
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
cargolex
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:09 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
Who cares what Dick wants?

Indeed. Why would anybody give this serious consideration?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
No, he is not a fine president. The president set the tone of the government. President Obama's tone has always been anti-rich, anti-business, anti-wealth. His policies have failed to revive the economy because those that are the job creators are fearful of what President Obama may propose next.

Am I the only person tired of hearing this ridiculousness? He's so anti-business that he packed his cabinet and financial advisors full of Wall Street guys. He's so anti-wealth that gave everybody tax cuts. Honestly, what you've said here is completely and totally false.

His polices haven't revived the economy, no - but they did keep it from getting a whole lot worse. And as for how to revive the economy, well, your approach certainly would not work.

The problem is not going to be solved here with supply-side solutions, such as giving companies corporate tax breaks or tax incentives, because the problem is not one of supply.

Unfortunately during the good times, our previous President spent us into oblivion, leaving us without the tools we need right now to do more to stimulate the economy - and that's exactly what we need - more stimulus. But thanks to the enormous outgoing cash flow started by two wars paid for off the books, among other things, we don't have the resources or the political will to do that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
His policies have failed to revive the economy because those that are the job creators are fearful of what President Obama may propose next.

Of the many reasons why the economy is still in the doldrums, this one is WAY down on the list.

What we are enduring now are the long-term effects of a housing sector that's basically still black and blue all over from what happened over the last five years, and corporations who have learned to do more with less and won't hire back employees until there is larger demand. Consumers don't feel confident in spending because they are generally saddled with lots of debt and are not secure about keeping their jobs, if they still have them.

Blaming the situation on "What Obama might hypothetically propose" is a cipher.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):

No, he is not a fine president.

Considering the mess he inherited, which Conservatives are largely responsible for, not that they'll ever apologize to us all for it - he's done a decent job.

Great president? Twenty dollar bills falling from the sky because of him? No. Exactly what I thought he was? No. But I'd vote for him in a heartbeat over any of the potential challengers because all of them are full of genuinely bad ideas or openly and willfully ignorant of how to fix things.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
I've said it before, the only concessions that were made by President Obama (on his major legislative agenda) were made to get more Democrats to his side. Look at the vote tallies...the only thing bi-partisan about most of that legislation was the opposition.

And just as before, you're absolutely wrong.

Republicans were given equal seats at the table when it came time to deal with the Stimulus, with Healthcare, and with START. At every turn, they basically stonewalled no matter how many concessions were made to them. Every time they would ask for something, the President met them half way. And then they'd say they wanted more. And he'd try to acommodate them, resulting in watered down legislation that wasn't as effective.

Who's idea was it to spend half of the stimulus on corporate tax cuts and incentives - a supply side solution to a demand side problem? It wasn't Obama's. But he did it because the stimulus had to happen. And much to the consternation of Fox news, it absolutely worked as far as hitting the brakes on our economic free fall. But it couldn't fix the damage already inflicted.

In the end, the Republicans opposed everything no matter what it was, that Obama presented. Even when Obama advocated for things like Pay-Go, a Republican proposition revived by none other than John McCain, they voted against it or attempted to stop it. All the while talking about Kenya, Birth Certificates, Death Panels, and other such nonsense.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
The FDR projects were different than just about anything President Obama may try now. Dams, roads, utilities, etc. were not in existence during FDR's time.

Seriously? Dams, roads, utilities didn't exist in 1932? When did people invent horses?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
She is also the only one that could challenge President Obama in a primary challenge

Which is never, ever, ever going to happen.

[Edited 2011-09-08 11:11:18]
 
PPVRA
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:33 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
Ugh. We NEED Obamacare. 50 million Americans don't have healthcare.

Not having insurance does not equate to not having access to healthcare.

And nobody needs Obamacare because nobody needs Obama or you or anyone else telling them what and how much to buy.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
It doesn't affect you at all.

Oh, it most certainly affects me: it will keep my health costs high and heading north of here.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
If you don't want it, generally its because you hate poor people.

Right  
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
gigneil
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:54 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
And nobody needs Obamacare because nobody needs Obama or you or anyone else telling them what and how much to buy.

Again, it doesn't affect me at all. Why? I have health insurance now and I will never have to change it. Duh?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Oh, it most certainly affects me: it will keep my health costs high and heading north of here.

Welp, every economist and the GAO say you're wrong. Also, I'd be happy to pay more if it meant everyone could have access.

Which leads me back to my original point:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
If you don't want it, generally its because you hate poor people.

NS

[Edited 2011-09-08 11:56:16]

[Edited 2011-09-08 11:56:52]
 
cargolex
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:00 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):

Not having insurance does not equate to not having access to healthcare.

There's some circular logic here.

You're right, not having health insurance does not mean you have no access to healthcare of any kind. You can always go to the emergency room.

But the question then becomes - who pays for that? If you have no health insurance and no means of paying, then the hospital must charge more to other patients and to the government to provide your care.

By the time you're going to the emergency room, things are not good. The ER is not a good place to get routine care because the costs are much higher and people resist going until there is a serious problem - by which time the treatment needed may cost a lot more than if it were done earlier.

The concept of health insurance is the pooling of risk and costs. If everybody has health insurance, then each person can pay less into the pool, because the pool has more resources to cover each person. You reduce the cost of subsidizing the uninsured in a system like that created by the Affordable Healthcare Act, which in turn lowers costs for everybody.

Now, I don't think the system created by the AHA is really ideal. I'd have preferred a system similar the one in Belgium - but if we did that, despite the fact that their system works far better than ours in spite of their deeply dysfunctional political system - you'd have cried socialism and communism, and that would be the end of it.

When people say things like:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
If you don't want it, generally its because you hate poor people.

it is because there are so many holes in the arguments against providing healthcare to everyone - which is something every other industrialized country does and generally do better than we do. In the absence of logic...
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:42 pm

I voted for Hillary in the primaries. While I'm a Democrat and will support the candidate, (even though we can't vote for president) I still believe Hillary was the better candidate. Oh well!
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
PPVRA
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:07 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 21):
Again, it doesn't affect me at all. Why? I have health insurance now and I will never have to change it. Duh?

That's exactly the problem. You need to change your health insurace just like me and every other person in this country. You, I and everybody else need to dump a lot of things out of insurance coverage that should never have been put there in the first place.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 21):
Welp, every economist and the GAO say you're wrong. Also, I'd be happy to pay more if it meant everyone could have access.

The same guys who predicted past healthcare reforms would be positive? This is hardly the first one.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 22):
You're right, not having health insurance does not mean you have no access to healthcare of any kind. You can always go to the emergency room.

No, you don't have to go to the emergency room.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 22):
The concept of health insurance is the pooling of risk and costs. If everybody has health insurance, then each person can pay less into the pool, because the pool has more resources to cover each person. You reduce the cost of subsidizing the uninsured in a system like that created by the Affordable Healthcare Act, which in turn lowers costs for everybody.

Insurance does not reduce the cost of healthcare or anything else. Insurance reduces the risk of you getting stuck with a large medical bill that is uncertain to happen to begin with. Anything else your coverage includes does not meet the rationale behind insurance and should therefore be dumped from coverage, providing us a huge cost savings that can be much better managed as an out of pocket expense. As a side benefit, this would drop insurance premiums, and more people will be able to afford it.

Legislation that mandates specific types of coverage that are not 1. risk-based and 2. significant ticket items are doing nothing but lining the pockets of insurance companies at the expense of ours and reducing accessibility to those who struggle to afford it. I don't need anyone managing my contact lense expenses, I can do it myself much more effectively and without overhead costs.

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 22):
When people say things like:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):
If you don't want it, generally its because you hate poor people.

it is because there are so many holes in the arguments against providing healthcare to everyone - which is something every other industrialized country does and generally do better than we do. In the absence of logic...

Healthcare costs are rising everywhere, going to another system where costs are also rising cannot be called a solution.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:08 pm

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 22):

But the question then becomes - who pays for that? If you have no health insurance and no means of paying, then the hospital must charge more to other patients and to the government to provide your care.

Just an idea - how about fixing that problem by insisting that you pay the bill? You came to the Emergency room in a car? Impound it. Put a lien on your house. Garnish your wages. Pay the damned bill. If you don't have anything, ensure that their credit score doesn't go above 200 until they pay. Make the penalty for not buying your own insurance painful enough that you will gladly pay the premiums to avoid the risk of losing everything you have.

Just a thought...
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
gigneil
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:15 pm

Because then we will have people dying on the streets. This is America, not Burkina Faso.

Its all moot anyway: we HAVE universal healthcare in this country now, and its not EVER going to be repealed.

NS
 
D L X
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Just an idea - how about fixing that problem by insisting that you pay the bill?

THAT IS AN INDIVIDUAL MANDATE!!!!


You do realize that, right?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:25 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 26):
Because then we will have people dying on the streets. This is America, not Burkina Faso.
Quoting D L X (Reply 27):

THAT IS AN INDIVIDUAL MANDATE!!!!

Interesting, how the left responds almost violently to the idea that people should be responsible to pay their own way...

Quoting gigneil (Reply 26):

Its all moot anyway: we HAVE universal healthcare in this country now, and its not EVER going to be repealed.

Wanna bet?

First of all, ObamaCare is not Universal Healthcare. Secondly, as it was designed to fail in the first place, even if the Dems controlled the government 100% for the next 10 years, it would have been repealed within a decade.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
gigneil
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:30 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Interesting, how the left responds almost violently to the idea that people should be responsible to pay their own way...

Not everyone can. And that's what its designed to fix. Even middle class families are bankrupted to poverty DAILY by inability to cover the cost of serious disease.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
First of all, ObamaCare is not Universal Healthcare

Please do point out who is left out.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Secondly, as it was designed to fail in the first place

Lol I can't wait to hear this. Please explain.

NS
 
cargolex
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:30 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Just an idea - how about fixing that problem by insisting that you pay the bill? You came to the Emergency room in a car? Impound it. Put a lien on your house. Garnish your wages. Pay the damned bill. If you don't have anything, ensure that their credit score doesn't go above 200 until they pay. Make the penalty for not buying your own insurance painful enough that you will gladly pay the premiums to avoid the risk of losing everything you have.

Just a thought...

And if you cannot pay because you don't have any money? If your house burns down, you lose your job, whatever?

The result of this is, as gigniel rightly suggests, people dying in the street or starving to death. Either people would die, or they would become so impoverished as to rapidly turn to crime, or just sit around panhandling all day because they have no hope of doing anything else.

Furthermore, what your suggesting is having the government force people to do something that they cannot do whether they choose to or not. The only way in which this is different from exactly the plan you claim to hate is that it leaves people dying in the street or deeply impoverished.
 
cargolex
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:33 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Interesting, how the left responds almost violently to the idea that people should be responsible to pay their own way...

What's funny (and sort of sad, really) is how shooting down a suggestion that would leave millions of people in deep poverty or dead is somehow seen as a rebuke of personal responsibility.

I'm all for personal responsibility. But I don't want dead people on my doorstep, or beggars everywhere. Or the general standard of living to decline because all of a sudden we decided that Lord of the Flies was a good template for society.

OT: Sorry for the double post.

[Edited 2011-09-08 13:35:13]
 
PPVRA
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:39 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 26):
Because then we will have people dying on the streets. This is America, not Burkina Faso.

You thinking of the same Burkina Faso as me, the one that is very left wing?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 26):
Its all moot anyway: we HAVE universal healthcare in this country now, and its not EVER going to be repealed.

Over the past 100 years, numerous socialists ideas have been dumped in the face of bankruptcy. Give it time and there won't be a single universal healthcare system left in this planet. May not be in my lifetime, but it will end just like the rest of their flawed ideas.

Meanwhile, thanks for highliting your manipulative politics. Historians in the future will have no trouble deciding who to blame for the pain this will bring.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 29):
Please do point out who is left out.

The Amish for one. Obama says they have more rights than you and I.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
gigneil
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
Meanwhile, thanks for highliting your manipulative politics.

My politics aren't manipulative, and I don't believe the logic behind it is flawed.

Access to healthcare is a universal right, and I am personally willing to pay whatever taxes are required to make it available.

Real manipulative of me, I know.

NS
 
PPVRA
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:01 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 33):
My politics aren't manipulative

Your politics manipulate people into being addicted to government handouts. This keeps people voting over and over again for the same type of politicians. It's buying votes.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 33):
Access to healthcare is a universal right

There is no such thing as a right to the labor of another human being, whether this human being is working the cotton fields or in a white coat at a hospital.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 33):
and I am personally willing to pay whatever taxes are required to make it available.

That's very nice of you. But what's not nice of you is to try to make that decision for others. You have no right to do this.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
gigneil
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:07 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
There is no such thing as a right to the labor of another human being, whether this human being is working the cotton fields or in a white coat at a hospital.

I say this with all due respect, but that opinion makes you a very selfish person. And that's why the government must provide these things, so that nobody goes uncompensated.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
That's very nice of you. But what's not nice of you is to try to make that decision for others. You have no right to do this.

Exactly what was said when we set all the slaves free, and when we granted black people the right to vote.

Government exists to improve life.

And on my own selfish note, if you can vote to restrict my rights and ruin my life (enforcing Christian views, banning marriage equality) then I don't feel bad about making you help pay to make the world a healthier place.


NS
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:11 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):
Meanwhile, thanks for highliting your manipulative politics. Historians in the future will have no trouble deciding who to blame for the pain this will bring.

I don't find it manipulative to point out realities that already exist. A very dear friend of mine's wife was diagnosed with a brain tumor just a year ago. Their insurance refused to pay all of the costs of her care. They ended up having to sell their home and move in with extended family...and after doing that still didn't have enough money to cover her medical bill.

I spoke to him recently and asked him what they are going to do now.

He said "We have to face reality. We can't pay the bill, and we can't borrow enough money to save her. So now, it's just a matter of time..."


This is America for God's sake, we have a better quality of life than many other parts of the world and yet things like this happen to families on a daily basis because people cry "Socialism!" anytime a measure to change the system is put in place. The system is broken and people who might otherwise be able to get the care they need can and do die because we do not have Universal Healthcare.

And as for costs going up....it's just like car insurance...everyone pays in so that there's enough money to take care of people. I mean, I paid a whole of maybe $60 into my last insurance company before my car broke down and I needed a $180 tow. The insurance company covered that for me. My net cost was $60, paid just on premiums. I only paid 33% of what I otherwise would have been on the hook for. Made possible by the pool of countless others putting money into the system. It would be the same way for healthcare.

I also support marketplaces and competitiveness in the health insurance and medical care industries because right now it is, exactly as pointed out, the fact that people can't pay their bills that drives health care costs every higher. Put a lid on it by having everyone contribute to the same pool of funds and you stop health care costs from spiraling ever higher.

I can't believe how many people are so utterly convinced that the exact opposite of what Universal Healthcare would provide would come to fruition. You're just believing the scare tactics put in place by those who have a vested interest in the status quo. But you are being lied to.

What I've told you is the reality. Sadly, even some here on a.net that I've spoken to and asked how they'd feel if someone they loved was terminally ill and could be saved if only for Universal Healthcare still would rather let their loved one die than ever accept the idea of socialized medicine....on principle alone.

How sad it is what we are willing to sacrifice in order to be "right".
 
cargolex
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:11 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 32):

Meanwhile, thanks for highliting your manipulative politics. Historians in the future will have no trouble deciding who to blame for the pain this will bring.

If we listened to you, we'd all still be enjoying the wonderful benefits of fuedalism, and don't think historians haven't figured out how wonderful that was for the average person.
 
gigneil
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:13 pm

Also interesting to note that the people who are opposed to this socialism are almost universally from districts that accept the MOST tax benefits - primarily in the South and rural West.

Lose your job, and tell me you won't accept unemployment. THEN I will respect your opinion. Until then, you're selfish.

NS
 
BN747
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:28 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):
Want an outside perspective? Obama is a fine president, it's the economy that's crap, and he can do very little to fix it (despite, of course, his affirmations of the contrary). In today's globalized economy, the possibilities of national governments to exert influence on economic development are increasingly limited, and your high debt doesn't help. America would be in a very similar situation now under both Clinton and McCain. If the economy picks up before the next election, we'll likely see Obama II.

        

It's always the ones on the outside looking in that can see the whole picture vs those in the middle of the fray.

Not only that, about a good 80% of the anti-Obama fervor is whipped up on a false premise..namely the racist Tea Party.

Whether you like the comparison or not, Obama is right where Jackie Robinson was in 1947..the 1st black to step on a stage where only whites stood.

Just as Robinson took to the field, the N-words came a flying and the true face of many Americans were revealed. FF to 2008..and the same crowd came at this 'fare and squarely' elected President. And they haven't let up since.
Even his own former support have brought into what they been fed by Tea Party/Rightwing media sound bites such keywords they made stick in weak minds such as 'incompetent, muslim and Kenyan'. And it worked like magic. Even actual US Congressmen got in on the act with racist emails and in actual words.

The racism this President is taking on is unfathomable. In this first term, he has no choice but to take the MLK Ghandian method of dealing with the profound racism and disrespect that racists within our elected government are shoving down his throat. If he doesnt do as Jackie Robinson did and say speaks his frustration out as did Malcolm X theyll compare him to the Angry Black Man and every racist will have a see I told you he's a terrorist moment. Until you either try to understand what it really is to be a black man in America and give credit to his victories despite racial hatred that cant be reasoned with or walk one inch in his shoes you'll stay ignorant to his greatness. He is a hero to millions. On the ground so many kids hell adults as well have had their horizens broadened. Boehner, Cantor and that loser Walsh prove that his election was a step toward equality but far from MLK dream. I will put the bottom dollar on the fact that when a more moral and future generation sees his greatness and honor the the road he took and the crap he carried on his back while keeping a cool head and maintaining his composure.

And tired of hearing the race thing? If you can bring yourself to say that...it speaks volumes about where you're really coming from because it is THAT obvious no matter how well you dress it up in your 'economy' wrappings.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 11):
However, it does not matter. It is his JOB to make the country better,

Hmmmm did GWB do that? No

Did Clinton? Debatable.

Did GHWB do that? Not from where I sit?

Did Reagan do it? Hell no... not while spending up the national debt on antiquated & obsolete military procurements. And his pals got paid for that one. Not to mention the gargantuan Savings and Loans, HUD financial grand theft. But amid all that..he made 'Americans 'feel' good..while getting screwed.

Did Carter do it? Many say 'No"..

Did Ford do it? NO

Did Nixon.? Hell NO! (but RFK would have)

Did LBJ do it? NO.

Did JFK do it - YES he did.

....so I guess having a 'NO" next to your name makes you about average. And at worse, that's about where Obama falls.

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
HOWEVER, in the case of Obama, this is an administration and president that has absolutely taken every misstep imaginable and done so deliberately. He CAN in fact help fix the economy by getting the F out of the way of Americans and letting them fix it. Government doesn't create jobs. Americans do. Companies do. Small businesses do.

Yeah, a lot like Perry's Texas, where Private Sector jobs are in negative and Gov't jobs have been leading the charge in sustaining jobs.


One thing I have to say about the Repubs, when they have a President who is not fairing so well..they'll stick by him no matter what. Not even a budge or a nudge from their man. Some Dems...well just like the spineless Dems on the Capitol Hill, soem Dem supporters will fold like a deck of wet cards when going gets rough. And they wonder where their Congressmen get from... now you know.

BN747

[Edited 2011-09-08 17:23:09]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:54 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
There is no such thing as a right to the labor of another human being, whether this human being is working the cotton fields or in a white coat at a hospital.

I say this with all due respect, but that opinion makes you a very selfish person.

It makes me a selfish person to argue against slavery?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35):
And that's why the government must provide these things, so that nobody goes uncompensated.

What are you talking about?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
That's very nice of you. But what's not nice of you is to try to make that decision for others. You have no right to do this.

Exactly what was said when we set all the slaves free, and when we granted black people the right to vote.

Huh?

Quoting gigneil (Reply 35):
And on my own selfish note, if you can vote to restrict my rights and ruin my life (enforcing Christian views, banning marriage equality) then I don't feel bad about making you help pay to make the world a healthier place.

I want to do none of those things.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 7878
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:04 am

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 36):
The system is broken and people who might otherwise be able to get the care they need can and do die because we do not have Universal Healthcare.

The system is broken because government broke it. I am not endorsing the system we had previous to Obamacare, much less Obamacare, which is just what we had before except on steroids.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 36):
And as for costs going up....it's just like car insurance...everyone pays in so that there's enough money to take care of people. I mean, I paid a whole of maybe $60 into my last insurance company before my car broke down and I needed a $180 tow. The insurance company covered that for me. My net cost was $60, paid just on premiums. I only paid 33% of what I otherwise would have been on the hook for. Made possible by the pool of countless others putting money into the system. It would be the same way for healthcare.

Your car breaking down is a risk your car insurance company takes. Me needing a new pair of contact lenses in the next two weeks is not a risk, it's a certainty. The reason heath insurance keeps going up is because it covers things that have nothing to do with risk, and the reason car insurance doesn't go up is because it doesn't cover anything unrelated to risk, like gas and oil changes.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 36):
I can't believe how many people are so utterly convinced that the exact opposite of what Universal Healthcare would provide would come to fruition. You're just believing the scare tactics put in place by those who have a vested interest in the status quo. But you are being lied to.

The insurance companies would love nothing less than a health insurance mandate: more customers, more money.

The politicians would love nothing less: more people dependent, more votes.

You are being naive to sweet talking politicians.

Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 36):
What I've told you is the reality. Sadly, even some here on a.net that I've spoken to and asked how they'd feel if someone they loved was terminally ill and could be saved if only for Universal Healthcare still would rather let their loved one die than ever accept the idea of socialized medicine....on principle alone.

How sad it is what we are willing to sacrifice in order to be "right".

I am asking you to think critically, not to sacrifice anything.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 37):
If we listened to you, we'd all still be enjoying the wonderful benefits of fuedalism, and don't think historians haven't figured out how wonderful that was for the average person.

Actually, that's more like the society you are proposing. A world of serfs to the state.

[Edited 2011-09-08 17:14:42]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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fxramper
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:09 am

This thread is about Hillary running in the primary, not Obama and his healthcare or lack thereof.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:35 am

Yes, we'll vote for Hillary. She'll maintain universal healthcare and possibly rack up some frags in the process.

NS
 
cargolex
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:18 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 42):
Actually, that's more like the society you are proposing. A world of serfs to the state.

The logical leap between:

"There should be a safety net for people who meet unfortunate circumstances, are indigent, very sick, or elderly, and people should have a fundamental right to access proper medical care without having to worry about becoming indigent"

..and...

"The world should look like rural North Korea"

...is so large, you could not bridge it with an A340-500. Or a Soyuz Rocket. Or even Dr. Who's TARDIS.

[Edited 2011-09-09 08:18:35]
 
tommy767
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:17 pm

I'd vote for her, but she's probably not going to run. If she did, she'd run a campaign probably as an independent but overall would be doing a disservice to her own party in the general election. She'd probably be president right now if FL and MI weren't discounted during the primaries (SIDEBAR: Anybody else ever wonder about that?)

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
HOWEVER, in the case of Obama, this is an administration and president that has absolutely taken every misstep imaginable and done so deliberately. He CAN in fact help fix the economy by getting the F out of the way of Americans and letting them fix it. Government doesn't create jobs. Americans do. Companies do. Small businesses do.

This is where many are skeptical of him. It's common knowledge that many big companies HAVE THE MONEY to hire, but they are not. They are literally sitting on a giant pile of cash. One could argue the reason for this is because this administration is incredibly anti-business, at least along the surface.

[quote=Aloha717200,reply=14]A question for you: Do you agree or disagree with the Public Works projects that FDR set in motion during the depression to put people to work? In my town we still have and take advantage of projects that the PWA built. It sounds to me like Obama wants to do something similar.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):

I used to think the same thing, but have come to the conclusion that he is egotistical and petulant. I can't hang with someone like that.

Definitely. I think his 2012 campaign is largely going to run on the fact that he's one "COOL" guy that hopes for a better tomorrow.

Quoting gigneil (Reply 17):

If you don't want it, generally its because you hate poor people.


There are many out there that want universal health care but believe that Obamacare was not the answer. Talk about a bill that was passed in such a rush that many keep digging into the fine print and are finding more and more reasons as to why it sucks.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):

Whether you like the comparison or not, Obama is right where Jackie Robinson was in 1947..the 1st black to step on a stage where only whites stood.

Not really. Obama is half black and half white but is considered black by majority. You could argue that Jessie Jackson was one of the first to step out into that ground breaking arena, but with limited success.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):
The racism this President is taking on is unfathomable. In this first term, he has no choice but to take the MLK Ghandian method of dealing with the profound racism and disrespect that racists within our elected government are shoving down his throat.

Actually the initial comparisons of Obama to MLK was unfathomable. I was certain that many Americans were huffing glue back then.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
Superfly
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RE: Cheney Wants Hillary To Run Against Obama.

Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:46 pm

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 46):
She'd probably be president right now if FL and MI weren't discounted during the primaries (SIDEBAR: Anybody else ever wonder about that?)

  
Correct and yes I wonder about that as well. Unfortunately she would have gone in to Libya too.
Hillary won more popular votes than any other candidate for a Presidential nomination. She got screwed over like Al Gore.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 46):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 39):

Whether you like the comparison or not, Obama is right where Jackie Robinson was in 1947..the 1st black to step on a stage where only whites stood.

Not really. Obama is half black and half white but is considered black by majority. You could argue that Jessie Jackson was one of the first to step out into that ground breaking arena, but with limited success.

Not a good comparison. Jackie Robinson was actually good at his profession and knew the game well. I find it insulting to Jackie Robinson to compare him to Obama.
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