TheCommodore
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Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:49 am

Sure this will ruffle the feathers of the IDF ?

Should be interesting to see how Israel reacts to this latest tactic, in the continuing Turkish/Israel spat.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/turkish-...aza-aid-convoy-20110909-1k15r.html

[Edited 2011-09-08 22:01:52]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
racko
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:24 am

Just Erdogan trying to piss with the big boys. All talk. They're not going to do it.
 
Centre
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:46 am

Quoting racko (Reply 1):

Just Erdogan trying to piss with the big boys.

Army to Army, IDF has no chance with the Turkish Army.
On a second note, it's about time someone stands up to the Diva!
For sure the Middle East will be a lot different for what Israel got used to in the past.
It's a different Game right now, and choices have to be made.

[Edited 2011-09-09 00:49:25]
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:07 am

Oh well..time to sink some Turkish Navy ships then...
אני תומך בישראל
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:36 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 3):
Oh well..time to sink some Turkish Navy ships then...

I think it would be the other way round, the Turkish have a pretty large and powerful and modern Navy.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:56 am

What really pi...s me off is that this testosteroned, nationalistic bully boy and defendor of faith Erdogan is provoking Israel so that he can claim Article 5 NATO pact. He can be sure that Germany and he rest of NATO will rather cut his testosterone factory off before he can say that they shoot back since 05h45.
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Quokka
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:45 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
He can be sure that Germany and he rest of NATO will rather cut

My first thought when I read the linked article. NATO and the EU would certainly not support Turkey and I imagine the telephones will have been busy letting him know as much. Whatever mild criticisms the EU may have of Israel it would certainly not run as far as Turkey protecting a "relief" vessel going to Gaza. If push were to come to shove, which is open to question, the US and the rest of NATO will jump to support Israel. The oft repeated chorus of the right of Israel to defend itself would be sung in unison, leaving Turkey to ask does it really want to escalate its spat with Israel at the same time as it appears to be posturing over Syria.

As both Turkey and Israel have an interest in a less unstable Syria it would make sense if the two would patch up their differences. But when I see Erdogan and Netanyahu I think of the tower of the town hall in Poznań - crowds gather outside Poznań's Town Hall at midday to watch two mechanical billy goats emerge from the clocktower and butt heads with each other. An interesting comment on the sometimes stubborn and childish proceedings within.
 
racko
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:55 pm

1. They're not gonna do it.
2. Even if they did, Israel would simply wait until they entered their coastal waters. Aggression by Turkey -> No NATO help.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:00 pm

Quoting Quokka (Reply 6):
An interesting comment on the sometimes stubborn and childish proceedings within.

Thanks for that, I have to go to Poznan some time. But you are right in your comparison. The real problem is, Article 5 is the basis of NATO, article 5 applied 10 years ago on 9/11 and Erdogan could twist it that way.and afterwards complain bitterly that NATO has let him down. I doubt however that he will go as far and close Incirlik and Adana bases.

Whatever else the UN report says, Israel was right in defending itself and the first childish move was by Turkey to allow that vessel to Gaza with the intention to break the blockade. No government should support such freaks and unfortunately Turkey did and still continues with this BS.
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windy95
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:44 pm

My first thought on this was what will NATO let them do? Probably not much...
 
TheCol
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:00 pm

It's doubtful Turkey will retain their NATO membership after this little publicity stunt. Their EU bid will be in jeopardy as well.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
mffoda
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:02 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 2):
Army to Army, IDF has no chance with the Turkish Army.

You forgot to add the smiley face at the end of your sentence... Because, you can't be serious!

In other news: Turkey "Floats" new RFP for replacement Navy... More news @ 11:00.
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:38 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 2):
Army to Army, IDF has no chance with the Turkish Army.

Its not the Turkish Army which has no way to get to Israel. Its the Navy - operating hundreds of miles away from their bases. Rather simple military task for Israel to handle if it needs to.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 3):
Oh well..time to sink some Turkish Navy ships then...

   If the Turks are truly that dumb to encroach on Israeli territorial waters.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
What really pi...s me off is that this testosteroned, nationalistic bully boy and defendor of faith

First lets not connect this with religion, as religion is not something that been prominent in this argument. Having associations with Turkey all these decades much of this is based on internal politics and playing to the masses which have a fervent anti-Israel opinion especially after last summers incidents. Unfortunately the things feed on themselves and Erdogan cant simply back off without loosing face as his government had already publicly drawn a line in the sand with a date by which they expected compensation and apology from Israel. When this came and went he had to do something.
Its also interesting to note the internal difference with president Gul which for the most part has taken a much more moderate stance and public comments. However the government belongs to Erdogan so he gets the PR and ability to influence events.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Whatever else the UN report says, Israel was right in defending itself and the first childish move was by Turkey to allow that vessel to Gaza with the intention to break the blockade. No government should support such freaks and unfortunately Turkey did and still continues with this BS.

   Indeed. Its law-101. No one can encroach or illegally enter a country without them being able to defend themselves. The UN report confirmed Israels legitimate rights to block entry.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
It's doubtful Turkey will retain their NATO membership after this little publicity stunt.

If you recall the 1974 war when two NATO allies fought each other. Did not seem to effect membership.

Turkey is extremely valuable to NATO and the US to simply be thrown out. The ramifications for are too large for the region and beyond.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:43 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
It's doubtful Turkey will retain their NATO membership after this little publicity stunt. Their EU bid will be in jeopardy as well.

I´ve got the slight feeling that Erdogan isn´t too much interested in EU or NATO anymore, but dreams of Turkey being the leader of something like an Ottoman commonwealth, consisting of Turkey and her former colonies, at least those in Northern Africa and the Middle East..

Jan

He certainly seems to dream of the "good old days" of the Ottoman Empire.

[Edited 2011-09-09 09:56:25]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Centre
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:00 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 7):
2. Even if they did, Israel would simply wait until they entered their coastal waters

This will not be the case once the UN General Assembly recognizes Palestine as a member state, then the Turkish ships will be in Palestinian international waters off the coast of Gaza, and it will be an aggression by Israel against Turkey and the State of Palestine.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
It's doubtful Turkey will retain their NATO membership after this little publicity stunt.

The NATO needs Turkey rather the other way around for so many reasons, they have the second largest Army in the NATO, along with their strategic location to list a few!

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):
Their EU bid will be in jeopardy as well.

The Turks realize that they have no chances in getting in the EU based on the religion of the majority of the country., Belarus or even Brazil, for that matter, has a better chance of joining the EU than Turkey.
The Turkish have their eyes right now on their historic ties with the region, the Middle East, and they have been playing it well.
Their support for Palestine brings them closer and closer to the 300 million people living in the Arab world. So many Arabs wish they have the same leadership that Turkey has now a days.

Any conflict between Turkey and Israel will have Palestine in its heart and will not a turkish-israeli conflict, and that will not go well with the region specially that most of the Western appointed leaders are gone or have their seats shaken.
the street will want a response, and words will not cut it at that stage.

That's why I said:

Quoting Centre (Reply 2):
It's a different Game right now, and choices have to be made.

So, I don't think the US or NATO for that matter will go in another war at this point of time.

If anything, it's everyone's interest to cool things down in the region.
Israel has just lost the support of Mubarak, and the whole peace agreement between Egypt and Israel is at stake, specially after the killing of 5 Egyptian soldiers inside the Egyptian borders by the Israelis.
I think the Israeli embassy in Cairo is about to be shut down, once and for all.

The US and the EU has strong economic ties with the region, are they going to put that in jeopardy?
Right now, I only see France who realizes that!!
So far, I think Turkey is playing its cards right.
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
lewis
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 2):
Army to Army, IDF has no chance with the Turkish Army.

Although Turkey has the largest army in NATO after the US, that calculation is mainly based on numbers of "conventional" army forces. Israel has the advantage of a more high-tech military force. Israel's army is also concentrated on a specific area (East Mediterranean) while Turkey's forces, especially its navy, are scattered all around the country (E. Mediterranean, Aegean Sea, Black Sea).

Quoting racko (Reply 7):
1. They're not gonna do it.

Probably not. I doubt they would start a conflict with Israel at the moment. They already have an unofficial open front with the Kurds, getting on another dispute would be too much.

What is often bypassed by foreign media and only openly mentioned in the regional media (Turkish, Cypriot, Greek and Israeli) is the role of Cyprus and the upcoming drilling in the Exclusive Economic Zones of Cyprus and Israel. The two countries have signed agreements over the official borders of these zones and drilling for natural gas are supposed to start next month by Noble Energy. Turkey has already "threatened" with presence of its navy in those zones and in the sea departments where the drills are going to take place. Thus, I am a bit skeptical about the timing that Turkey decided to retaliate for the flotilla or to suddenly become so interested about the Gaza blockade, after all those months.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:59 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
First lets not connect this with religion, as religion is not something that been prominent in this argument.

I really didn't, hardly to a third in the argument. But Turkey has been a secular state ever since Kemal Atatürk until Erdogan was elected PM and ever since he is playing that card. Hence, it's got to be a legitimate argument against this guy.
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Cadet985
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 14):
This will not be the case once the UN General Assembly recognizes Palestine as a member state

Not gonna happen. The US will block it in the Security Council. The Palestinians will at most get an observer status like Vatican City has. And even if it were to happen, Israel will not recognize Palestine as a country, neither will the US. So, Turkey runs the blockade. Israel will fire upon or board ships. If ships are hit or destroyed, boarded, or Turks killed, Turkey will declare war on Israel, and the US will live up to its alliance with Israel.

As a strong supporter of Israel, let me say that Turkey may have a large army, but the Israelis have fought off multiple countries...at once.

Just let the fighting wait until after my trip over there has ended...

Marc
 
Centre
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:01 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 15):
Israel has the advantage of a more high-tech military force.

That might be "slightly" true, but that is no advantage at all.
Israel lost its war in Lebanon twice, with 2006 being the latest, and they had a superior technological advantage over the Lebanese.
So technological superiority has failed them more than once, they were able to inflict a lot of civilian casualties, but they lost their battles, and I see them loosing any coming ones.
After all the ugly face of war is still determined on the ground!!

Oh, and don't forget that the Turkish Armed Forces are in Erdogan's hands right now.
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
lewis
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:10 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 18):
After all the ugly face of war is still determined on the ground!!

Very true! But, unless Turkey is ready to land soldiers, tanks and any other land weaponry in Israel, any possible conflict will be determined in the sea/air.
 
racko
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:15 pm

Israel lost in 2006 because they fought a war they couldn't win. There's no way you can prevent the occasional small rocket launched at you, short of bombing anything that is within range (which would have repercussions that could hardly be classified as "winning" either).

And, as others have pointed out, if Israel wants to get rid of the Turkish navy, it can. There's no way for Turkey to achieve air superiority off the coast of Israel.

And all that aside, nobody is going to war over this. Erdogan gets his chance to pander to the Arab street, Liebermann gets his chance to say something stupid (seriously, who thought it was a good idea to make this idiot foreign minister? His latest idea is to establish relations with the PKK, classified by both the EU and the US as a terrorist organization.), everybody calms down and minds his own business.
 
iakobos
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:22 pm

There are many more actors on the scene and the stage set is becoming overloaded.

Kurdistan (in and out of Turkish borders),
Syria,
Cyprus (oil exploration and Russian Navy back up) http://www.cyprusnewsreport.com/?q=node/4540
Bulgaria (mutual very impolite visits and border fence in preparation),
Israel (not only the blockade affair but also the Israeli-made Turkish AF UAV Heron-1 apparently retained in Israel)
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...turkish-uav-contract-updated-0389/

This comes on top of ancient but still present antagonisms, Greece being only one of them.
A dangerous path Mssrs Gül and Erdogan...
 
Centre
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Not gonna happen. The US will block it in the Security Council. The Palestinians will at most get an observer status like Vatican City has. And even if it were to happen, Israel will not recognize Palestine as a country, neither will the US.

Don't forget that Israel got its recognition through the UN General Assembly. Palestine will earn the recognition of more than 129 world countries.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
As a strong supporter of Israel,

As a strong supporter of Palestine, I will have a big Palestinian flag hanging outside my house when they win their recognition.
The Palestinians deserve to have their own state, the peace process has been running for the past 20 years, and if they follow what Israel and the US want, my grand grand child will be reading the news about the obstacles in the peace process and the talk about the promised Palestinian state.
Israel is not interested in the peace process, and the Palestinians have lost faith in it and in the US support of the peace process.
The more they wait, the more land Israel will confiscate, and the more of their people will be killed by Israel.
If Israel will have its way, I see Palestinians left with 1 square mile and a 1000 inhabitants left in there.
And there you get your second Vatican City.


Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
but the Israelis have fought off multiple countries...at once.

Those days are over. It's not 1948, nor 1967 anymore.
And I'm not talking about armies or technology here, I'm talking about the change of leadership in the region. That's what counts.
The image of Israeli soldiers crying amid the 2006 invasion of Lebanon are still lingering in our minds.
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:29 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 15):
Israel has the advantage of a more high-tech military force.

But as this will most likely be a naval engagement I'd say Turkey would give Israel a wooping.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Turkey will declare war on Israel, and the US will live up to its alliance with Israel.

What's more important, Nato or Israel, I'd have to say Nato, I think there would be a massive uproar in Europe if the US stood by Israel and not sided with Turkey, the best and only option for the US would be to sit it out and remain neutral.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Not gonna happen. The US will block it in the Security Council. The Palestinians will at most get an observer status like Vatican City has. And even if it were to happen, Israel will not recognize Palestine as a country, neither will the US.

It the only way to resolve this problem, the US needs to man up and support Palestine, all this pandering to Israel is only making the conflict worse, dragging it out and killing more people. The Palestinians are a people whose country has been systematically stolen over the past 60 years, it's a disgrace, the world and in particular the US should be ashamed.


http://www.ccmep.org/delegations/maps/landmap1.jpg


I also wonder why Israel has the right to control the sea around the Gaza strip surely that is Palestinian territorial waters?
 
mffoda
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:33 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 18):
Oh, and don't forget that the Turkish Armed Forces are in Erdogan's hands right now.

A more likely scenario would be the Military ousting the government again...  
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
lewis
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:40 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
What's more important, Nato or Israel, I'd have to say Nato, I think there would be a massive uproar in Europe if the US stood by Israel and not sided with Turkey, the best and only option for the US would be to sit it out and remain neutral.

Depends on what the final "targets" of Turkey will be. If they try to get involved in anything else than the Gaza blockade, the EU, Russia and US have already declared who they will side with.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
But as this will most likely be a naval engagement I'd say Turkey would give Israel a wooping.

Are we counting fighter jets in this? What about proximity of the said fighter jets to a conflict zone close to Gaza? There are a lot of parameters and I have read many versions of how this may go down, hopefully it will never get to that.
 
jfk69
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:44 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
The Palestinians are a people whose country has been systematically stolen over the past 60 years, it's a disgrace, the world and in particular the US should be ashamed.

Maybe their "brothers" can house them

 
Centre
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:47 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
Israel lost in 2006 because they fought a war they couldn't win.

They still lost! Isn't that the measure of any war?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
It the only way to resolve this problem, the US needs to man up and support Palestine, all this pandering to Israel is only making the conflict worse, dragging it out and killing more people. The Palestinians are a people whose country has been systematically stolen over the past 60 years, it's a disgrace, the world and in particular the US should be ashamed.

The image of the US in the Arab world is not the best as it is, We are putting our economic interest in the region at stake.

on a second note, what kind of strategic value does Israel have for the US? I would like to have that answered, other than the "strong ally" mantra, because we have a lot of them in the region and who are actually of support to the US rather than being a burden.
Other than people like this: http://www.aipac.org/ and their influence and lobbying the US law makers, I see no other driver for this relationship.
In the linked website, you will see nothing offered by Israel that can't be matched by another country in the region.
Even with the war on terror, recent leaks showed that Ghadafi was of more value to the US than Israel is.

If you haven't watched Casino Jack, I suggest you do!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1igM1mfzPI
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
Centre
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:57 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 26):
Maybe their "brothers" can house them

Using the same argument, we can say the same thing about Israel, since they got a lot of supporters everywhere.

If you want to use this argument we can go for days over this issue. Remember that the only claim Israel has in historic Palestine is based on Biblical believes, which I for one don't believe in them.
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
mffoda
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:59 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
It the only way to resolve this problem, the US needs to man up and support Palestine, all this pandering to Israel is only making the conflict worse, dragging it out and killing more people. The Palestinians are a people whose country has been systematically stolen over the past 60 years, it's a disgrace, the world and in particular the US should be ashamed.

You seem to know allot about the region... Could you show us a map of Kurdistan??
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
Centre
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 29):
You seem to know allot about the region... Could you show us a map of Kurdistan??

The Kurds have not claimed themselves as an independent entity before! Even their greatest leader Saladin never claimed or distinguish himself as a Kurd. the same goes for the Saljuq emirates. So based on the map presented by jfk69, they are part of the Muslim world, and historically that's how they viewed themselves.
The same argument goes for Palestine as well.
Both have always been part of the "System" until the demise of the Ottoman Empire, the same goes for Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq...etc.
The only difference is that those countries emerged as "independent" states afterwards following the divide and conquer policy.
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
edka
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:20 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
Quoting Centre (Reply 30):
Both have always been part of the "System" until the demise of the Ottoman Empire, the same goes for Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq...etc.

Palestinian' politician Zouhair Moussein told the Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 :

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.

For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
 
jfk69
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:22 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 28):
If you want to use this argument we can go for days over this issue. Remember that the only claim Israel has in historic Palestine is based on Biblical believes, which I for one don't believe in them.

And the Dome of the rock is only the 3rd holiest place in the Muslim world,

I will let you "win" cause I am tired of these tit for tat threads.
 
mffoda
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 30):
The only difference is that those countries emerged as "independent" states afterwards following the divide and conquer policy.

Divided and conquered by whom?
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
fly777s
Posts: 87
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:31 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 27):
on a second note, what kind of strategic value does Israel have for the US? I would like to have that answered, other than the "strong ally" mantra, because we have a lot of them in the region and who are actually of support to the US rather than being a burden.

You mean strong allies such as Egypt, in which we give them $1.3 billion a year... and we get what exactly in return?
Or like Pakistan.. another "strong ally" of ours... We gave Pakistan upwards of $1.5 billion in aid last year... and what exact benefits do they provide?

Israel is also a recipient of U.S. aid, however the majority of aid Israel receives goes right back into our economy as the result of military contracts.

Other than the strategic, political, and military benefits of our alliance with Israel, Israel has extensive industry in bio-chemistry, telecommunications, agriculture, healthcare, etc. Israel is far more productive and progressive than the rest of the middle east.

Again... What does Egypt and Pakistan offer us? Looks to me like they're the actual burden...
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10153
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:35 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 26):
Maybe their "brothers" can house them

Why should they, basically what right did the world have to create Israel in the first place, why should a people have been systematically brutalised and forced to live in apartheid like conditions just to make the West feel less guilty over Hitlers final solution.

The creation of Israel has been the cause of more problems than the country is worth.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 31):
The Palestinian people does not exist.

So who were the people who had their land and country stolen from them?
 
mffoda
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:37 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
So who were the people who had their land and country stolen from them?

Have a look at the League of Nations...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations_Mandate
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
fly777s
Posts: 87
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RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 28):
If you want to use this argument we can go for days over this issue. Remember that the only claim Israel has in historic Palestine is based on Biblical believes, which I for one don't believe in them.

It's funny how over the past decades of archaeological digs, many artifacts referencing Israel and the Israelites have been uncovered... Coins referencing the House of David.... mosaics with the menorah... tablets documenting historical accounts that coincide with biblical accounts... ancient synagogues...

There's even evidence out-side of the bible backing up the Israelite claim to the land.... Ever heard of the Mernepteh Steele? It's an upright stone slab dating from 1230 BCE containing a hieroglyphic account of Pharaoh Mernepteh's conquer of Israel. Yes - it mentions Israel by name...

Yet there's very little archaeology that ties in the modern day Palestinian claim to the land....
 
fly777s
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:04 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:46 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
So who were the people who had their land and country stolen from them?

They were Jordanian citizens until 1967, when Israel seized control over the West Bank.... Afterwards, the Jordanians stripped them of their citizenship...
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10153
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:47 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 36):
Have a look at the League of Nations...

Yup a large number of Palistinians had their land stolen form them to make a Jewish state, what's your point?
 
fly777s
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:04 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
Why should they, basically what right did the world have to create Israel in the first place, why should a people have been systematically brutalised and forced to live in apartheid like conditions just to make the West feel less guilty over Hitlers final solution.

The creation of Israel has been the cause of more problems than the country is worth.

Well maybe if Europeans hadn't spent the better part of 2,000 years wrongfully brutalizing their Jewish populations, which ultimately culminated in the Holocaust, then there wouldn't have been the need for a Jewish homeland, now would there??

Many modern nations have histories of apartheid and persecutions of their native populations, NZ included... What do you have to say about that? Or is it so far in the past it is irrelevant?
 
fly777s
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:04 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:57 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 39):
Yup a large number of Palistinians had their land stolen form them to make a Jewish state, what's your point?

The "Palestinians" you speak of had every opportunity to create their own nation at the same time Israel was established. They refused the offer. Whose problem is that?
 
edka
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
apartheid like conditions

This is a quote from the open letter written by professor Dr. Denis MacEoin to the Edinburgh University Student Association following their vote to boycott Israel and all Israeli goods because it is an 'apartheid regime'.


"For apartheid to exist, there would have to be a situation that closely resembled things in South Africa under the apartheid regime. Unfortunately for those who believe this, a weekend in any part of Israel would be enough to show how ridiculous the claim is. That a body of university students actually fell for this and voted on it is a sad comment on the state of modern education. The most obvious focus for apartheid would be the country’s 20% Arab population. Under Israeli law, Arab Israelis have exactly the same rights as Jews or anyone else; Muslims have the same rights as Jews or Christians; Baha’is, severely persecuted in Iran, flourish in Israel, where they have their world centre; Ahmadi Muslims, severely persecuted in Pakistan and elsewhere, are kept safe by Israel; the holy places of all religions are protected under a specific Israeli law. Arabs form 20% of the university population (an exact echo of their percentage in the general population). In Iran, the Baha’is (the largest religious minority) are forbidden to study in any university or to run their own universities: why aren’t your members boycotting Iran?

Arabs in Israel can go anywhere they want, unlike blacks in apartheid South Africa. They use public transport, they eat in restaurants, they go to swimming pools, they use libraries, they go to cinemas alongside Jews – something no blacks could do in South Africa. Israeli hospitals not only treat Jews and Arabs, they also treat Palestinians from Gaza or the West Bank. On the same wards, in the same operating theatres."
 
mffoda
Posts: 1018
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:09 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:07 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 39):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 36):
Have a look at the League of Nations...

Yup a large number of Palestinian's had their land stolen form them to make a Jewish state, what's your point?

My point is that none of these present day borders even existed until after WW1. And, if Turkey is so hell bent on getting the Palestinian's their land back?? They might consider giving the Kurds back theirs...
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
lewis
Posts: 3581
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:07 pm

Quoting Fly777s (Reply 37):

If you follow the same logic, many of today's nations can claim back land based on archaeological evidence. This does not have any legal standing for anyone else on this planet. Furthermore, it cannot be used to justify the free and uncontrolled return of families that have had no relation to Israel for tens of generations (other than their religion).
 
edka
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:14 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
So who were the people who had their land and country stolen from them?

They are just Arabs that lived in the region, they could have had their own state in 1947 or could have been part of Jordan. Ironically, they are now seeking the recognition from the UN, 64 years later....
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12500
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:39 pm

There is one big reason for Israel to keep out these aid convoys - is to keep a defacto blockade in Gaza to keep out any possible weapons, bomb materials, missles, chemicals that could or likely will be smuggled with the aid to then be used in attacks against Israel.

With the Turkish Navy giving support to those breaking the blockade, they are setting up a potental game of chicken that Israel may not want to play as it will put them in a bad positon if they confront the convoys. Start sinking some Turkish Naval ships and you have a huge problem. I also suspect that Turkey's leaders are also making a power play too in the region, showing off their 'muscle' to the Eastern Med to mark their 'turf' and become a power (again) there.
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 46):
Start sinking some Turkish Naval ships and you have a huge problem.

Not if they cross into Israeli territorial waters. Israel has every right to defend itself.
אני תומך בישראל
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:10 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 44):
If you follow the same logic, many of today's nations can claim back land based on archaeological evidence. This does not have any legal standing for anyone else on this planet. Furthermore, it cannot be used to justify the free and uncontrolled return of families that have had no relation to Israel for tens of generations (other than their religion).

Who knows, perhaps even less than that
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010.../shlomo-sand-judaism-israel-jewish
 
Centre
Posts: 321
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:37 pm

RE: Turkish Navy To Protect Gaza Aid Convoy

Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:14 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 33):
Divided and conquered by whom?

This might give you an idea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement
or how about the cause of the iraqi invasion into kuwait,
how about India-Pakistan war.
maybe Bangladish?
or the Hala'ib Triangle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hala%27ib_Triangle
and the list goes long!

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 32):
And the Dome of the rock is only the 3rd holiest place in the Muslim world,

But Palestinians are willing to accept to have their country within the 1967 borders with their capital in east jerusalem, Israel is not.

Quoting Fly777s (Reply 37):
It's funny how over the past decades of archaeological digs, many artifacts referencing Israel and the Israelites have been uncovered... Coins referencing the House of David.... mosaics with the menorah... tablets documenting historical accounts that coincide with biblical accounts... ancient synagogues...

This is a good read for you to enjoy, it was written by a Jewish writter:
http://www.worldagesarchive.com/Refe...inks/False_Testament_(Harpers).htm

But, again, who was there first, Palestine was not empty before the Israelite came from Egypt. or even when Abraham came to Palestine, he was hosted by the "LOCALS", and he lived among them.
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.

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