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Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Next week, will be the the annual UN General Assembly meeting.
The Palestinians will be seeking a vote of recognition for their statehood.
A handful of countries are opposing such a move, mainly Israel, the US and Canada.

Quote:
“Our government's long-standing position has not changed. The only solution to this conflict is one negotiated between and agreed to by the two parties,” said Chris Day, the spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird.

“One of the states must be a Jewish state and recognized as such, while the Palestinian state is to be a nonmilitarized one.”

To get full U.N. membership the Palestinians have to win Security Council approval. The US administration has said it will veto any resolution ensuring the further isolation of Israel and the US.
such a Veto by the US will not be taking lightly by countries in the Middle East, specially the US strong allies like the government of Saudi Arabia which is threatening to part ways with the US government if such a move is taken:

Veto a State, Lose an Ally, by Prince Turki Al-Faisal

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/12/op...tate-lose-an-ally.html?ref=opinion

Quote:
If they fail in the Security Council, the Palestinians have said they will ask the General Assembly for enhanced observer status as a nonmember state. Even the more modest General Assembly vote, which the Palestinians are sure to win, would pave the way for them to join dozens of U.N. bodies and conventions, and could strengthen their ability to pursue cases against Israel at the International Criminal Court. But Israel would still control Palestinian territory, leaving the Palestinians disaffected after the initial euphoria.

Interesting times ahead!!!
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
lewis
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:22 pm

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
The US administration has said it will veto any resolution

Has the US given any reason for this? Do they demand certain criteria to be met (such as recognition of Israel) or is it just a position to align with Israel's position?
 
jfk69
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:36 pm

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
such a Veto by the US will not be taking lightly by countries in the Middle East, specially the US strong allies like the government of Saudi Arabia which is threatening to part ways with the US government if such a move is taken:

OH NO!!! Guess this will produce 15 more hijackers to come from that country.
 
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:39 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 1):
(such as recognition of Israel)

The Palestinian Authority already recognized Israel,
Canada on the other hand request the recognition of Israel as a "Jewish State" which Palestinians refuse to do as it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.
The US on the other hand wants everything to go through the peace processwhich Palestinians have lost faith in, and they say they have no issues continuing the peace process, except that it will be state to state going forward.

[Edited 2011-09-13 13:42:38]
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:42 pm

The question is: Who will represent the Palaestine people? Currently there are two Palaestine "states":
HAMAs-controlled Gazah and FATAH-controlled Ramallah.
Since their first election victory HAMAS has been ruling Gazah with an iron fist, persecuting any kind of opposition, practically turning their area of control into a Sunni theocracy.
The FATAH in rRamallah is deeply divided into various factions and deeply corrupt.
Then there exists no viable territory for the new state. The current rightwing Zionist Israeli government has made sure that any possible Palaestinian state will be disintegrated into barely connected patches of land around Israeli settlements.

Jan

BTW, I doubt that this thread will stay long.
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:43 pm

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 2):
OH NO!!! Guess this will produce 15 more hijackers to come from that country.

Please keep this thread as civil as you can  .
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
Springbok747
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:49 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
The Palestinian Authority already recognized Israel,

Then why do they want Israel to be wiped off the map?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/05/pa...o-deny-israels-right-to-exist.html

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
which Palestinians refuse to do as it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.

Why would Israel 'kick out' Arabs with Israeli citizenship?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:52 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
Canada on the other hand request the recognition of Israel as a "Jewish State" which Palestinians refuse to do as it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.

While I support the recognition of Israel as an existing state in the borders of 1967 (because it undeniably exists, it is morally and practically impossible to carry out an ethnic cleansing to kick the existing Israeli population out, no matter where their ancestors originally came from, similar as the former German eastern provinces are now undeniably part of Poland, Russia, Lithuania and the Czech Republic (even though my family got driven out twice, once after WW1 and then again after WW2 and lost all their land). The younger generation having been born there feel connected to the land), I strongly oppose ANY definition of a state just belonging to a certain ethnic or religious group. The times of ethnic purity have been over since 1945 (or November 1946, when the main Nazi war criminals have been hanged in Nuremberg prison), even if Netanyahu and consorts deny it.
The best would be either a federation or an eastern mediterranean "EU". Jerusalem should go under international, neutral control until tensions have disappeared.

Jan

[Edited 2011-09-13 13:54:30]
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Dreadnought
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:58 pm

Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:59 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):
Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
which Palestinians refuse to do as it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.

Why would Israel 'kick out' Arabs with Israeli citizenship?

There are restrictions, e.g. AFAIK an Israeli Arab, who gets married to non-Israeli Palaestinian, can´t bring his / her spouse to live within Israel, instead he /she has to leave Israel to live with the spouse.

Jan
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N537FX
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:05 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
it paves the way to kick out the Arab community still living inside Israeli borders.

That is a ridiculous argument. Arabs today in Israel have very well established livelihoods, yet i realize there is discrimination. But lets look at reality. Israel as it is today is a Jewish State by nature, then why is ARABIC an official language, why is Arabic written on every road sign, on the currency, etc. Surly they just want to look at the pretty calligraphy. Why are there Arab political parties, members of parliament, judges in courts of law, doctors, and professors?

I thought in a Jewish state, there would be no room for these things.
 
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:05 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):
Then why do they want Israel to be wiped off the map?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/05/pa....html

I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue  
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):

Why would Israel 'kick out' Arabs with Israeli citizenship?

to maintain the identity of the "Jewish State".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.
Quote:
Jordanian king says Jordan will never be alternative Palestinian homeland, says "Jordan option" is a political fantasy.
http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=237631
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:08 pm

Quoting N537FX (Reply 10):
That is a ridiculous argument. Arabs today in Israel have very well established livelihoods, yet i realize there is discrimination. But lets look at reality. Israel as it is today is a Jewish State by nature, then why is ARABIC an official language, why is Arabic written on every road sign, on the currency, etc. Surly they just want to look at the pretty calligraphy. Why are there Arab political parties, members of parliament, judges in courts of law, doctors, and professors?

I thought in a Jewish state, there would be no room for these things.

not according to this:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar...ld/la-fg-israel-arab-laws-20110324
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Springbok747
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
to maintain the identity of the "Jewish State".
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...urce/Society_&_Culture/arabs2.html

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/opinion/14oren.html
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baroque
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/opinion/14oren.html

And the Ambassador provides a clear unbiased summary? Also check what he proposed in 2010 with what happened since. Like more and more settlements.

[Edited 2011-09-13 15:20:08]
 
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:01 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/opinion/14oren.html

from your linked article which is written by:

Quote:
Michael B. Oren is Israel’s ambassador to the United States.

He said:

Quote:
the Palestinians are still denying the Jewish nature of the state. “Israel can name itself whatever it wants,” said the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas,

So, while Palestinians recognize Israel as a sovereign state with the right to exist, they refuse to do so for Israel as a "Jewish State".
So they are only denying the Jewish nature of the state and not the state itself.
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n229nw
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:15 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
While I support the recognition of Israel as an existing state in the borders of 1967 (because it undeniably exists... I strongly oppose ANY definition of a state just belonging to a certain ethnic or religious group.

I strongly agree with you on principle. An ideal solution for me would be a one-state solution with freedom of religion for all.

HOWEVER (and this is a big however), ethnic groupings have been the justification for pretty much every self-declared state from the rise of nationalism in the early nineteenth century until today, and it seems hypocritical that every other group has made itself a country on these terms, but Israel could not. (Even the creation of a Palestinian state is based on the claims of "a people" to "a homeland.")

The entire idea of Israel was dreamed up (from the nineteenth century, even before the biblical claims got involved) as a homeland for the Jews (as an ethnicity, more than as a religion), at a time when every other European ethnicity was having revolutions and national movements to establish self-rule based on ethnic boundaries, and at a time when those very ethnic nationalisms were being used to treat Jews as perenial outsiders everywhere in Europe.

While you and I may see all ethnic nationalism as unhelpful, in the real world, there is no way, absolutely no way, that most Israelis will give up on the idea of Israel as an (ethnically) Jewish nation (and that is true even of 90% of secular Jewish Israelis who hate the Orthodox, religious Jews in their country).

The Palestinians would be wise to back down on demanding that Judaism be removed from Israel's statehood. Instead of grandstanding on principle, they should seek instead guarantees for how Arab citizens will be treated in Israel (and they should promise the same treatment for Jewish citizens a future Palestinian state--however few they may be in reality). With that obstacle out of the way, they would make their case for universal recognition much stronger to neutral parties, which is to their advantage, as their plan is in essence a bid to isolate Israel and the U.S. diplomatically, and build long-term momentum toward their cause.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:18 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 15):
Quote:
the Palestinians are still denying the Jewish nature of the state. “Israel can name itself whatever it wants,” said the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas,

So, while Palestinians recognize Israel as a sovereign state with the right to exist, they refuse to do so for Israel as a "Jewish State".
So they are only denying the Jewish nature of the state and not the state itself.

Imagine the outcry if Germany would re-introduce the Nazi "Ariernachweiß" (certificate of aryanhood) as pre-condition for German citizenship or even residence permit.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 13):
Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
to maintain the identity of the "Jewish State".
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...urce/Society_&_Culture/arabs2.html

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/14/op....html

Springbok,

I used to work with a white South African (Afrikaaner) Avionics engineer in CGN. He used to work for many years in Israel with IAI in Tel Aviv. During this time he had his family, including his two teenage daughters there. Both girls had grown up in Israel, went to school there, both spoke fluent Hebrew and both volunteered for military service in the IDF (which in Israel doesn´t mean stacking blankets, but can mean combat duty). Both of them intended to stay permanently in Israel. There was only one problem: They were not Jewish.
When IAI laid off employees and their father lost his job (this is why he went to Germany), the whole family lost their residence permits and had to leave the country, including the two young women, who were willing to risk their lives for the country they considered to be theirs.

Similarly Haaretz has reported about various deportations of non-Jewish children of immigrant workers and non-Jewish immigrants as well. A few years ago Netanyahu actually defended the deportation of non-Jewish children because "they would change Israel´s character as Jewish state".
I would love Israel to reach the 21st century.

Jan
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Springbok747
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:20 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):

But surely they cannot kick out Arabs/non-Jewish people who are citizens (not residents) of Israel?
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voodoo
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:25 am

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 18):


But surely they cannot kick out Arabs/non-Jewish people who are citizens (not residents) of Israel?


It's open to interpretation, but if you ironically paraphrase it as 'first they came for the violent Arabs... then they came for the [scapegoat of their choice]...'
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...iament-arabs-idUSTRE72R6OH20110328

I'm not sure of any civilized state that removes citizenship, even for acts of violence by 'some' of its citizens, but not others.
If you start basing citizenship on an interpretation of membership of a religion or race, you open yourself up to a whole new can of worms, less consistant with what one would call the Western liberalism of a large portion of Israel's founders, and more in keeping with Saudi-style theocracy. I can see how that appeals to US Christian Dominianist sensibility but it won't lead to any world I am keen on.
Personally I think Israel has a lot more to worry about than -external- threats!

[Edited 2011-09-14 04:26:50]
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windy95
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:01 pm

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
The US administration has said it will veto any resolution ensuring the further isolation of Israel and the US.

Sounds more like isolation for the Arabs in Gaza.

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
Veto by the US will not be taking lightly by countries in the Middle East, specially the US strong allies like the government of Saudi Arabia which is threatening to part ways with the US government if such a move is taken:

An ally that supports terrorist around the world...yeah

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
Who will represent the Palaestine people? Currently there are two Palaestine "states":
HAMAs-controlled Gazah and FATAH-controlled Ramallah.
Since their first election victory HAMAS has been ruling Gazah with an iron fist, persecuting any kind of opposition, practically turning their area of control into a Sunni theocracy

Which is why the split of West bank and gaza will not work

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.

Correct

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
I wouldn't quote a Right Wing website on such an issue

Does it mean it is wrong?

Quoting Centre (Reply 11):
to maintain the identity of the "Jewish State".

Is that from left wing source..

Quoting n229nw (Reply 16):
An ideal solution for me would be a one-state solution with freedom of religion for all.

Yes returning all the Palestinians to Jordan would make one state.
 
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Quoting n229nw (Reply 16):
An ideal solution for me would be a one-state solution with freedom of religion for all.

Yes returning all the Palestinians to Jordan would make one state.

Including those who never came from Jordan and have never set a foot into this country?

Jan
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damirc
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:55 pm

Without going into debates that will again get this thread closed let me just state the obvious fact ...

The UN Partition plan from 1947 called for 2 independent states according to the partition plan. One of them was created in 1948, the other finally has a chance to be created 64 years later (and yes, not in the borders of 1947/48, but that is okay - a lot of things have happened since then, and it's perfectly normal that the reality will be different).

The world owes them this much.

D.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 1):
Has the US given any reason for this? Do they demand certain criteria to be met

A) The USA is a protectorate of Israel
B) The US foreign politics is defined in Israel
C) The Israeli Prime Minister defines
D) The advice of the Israeli leadership is recognized as law in the White House
-
in case of doubt, ask the Israeli ambassador to the USA, the man in charge
with US foreign politics

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):
Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
The Palestinian Authority already recognized Israel,

Then why do they want Israel to be wiped off the map?

They do NOT want Israel to be wiped off the map ... but look for productive solutions

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.

This, Sir, is a pointless "argument" as Jordan is inhabited by lots of people from Palestine, but it is NOT Palestine, and Palestine is located WEST of the Jordan River. If the Israelis returned WestBank and EastJerusalem to Jordan, they THEN could claim that country to be Palestine-Jordan, but not before.

The other way round, if you say that Jordan is Palestine, then you of course support the claim of Jordan to at least the WestBank and EastJerusalem.

And finally, the Arabs
inside Israel proper
in East Jerusalem
in the WestBank
in the Gaza Territory
in a not too distant future will outnumber the Jews in all these territories combined.

The Israelis might remember why CDG was so eager to give independence to Algeria. Because he realized that 20 or mio Algerians would participate in democracy far more seriously than his own people, who the General regarded as "politically lazy". When President Mitterand saw that the French citizens of Maghrebine origin became a heavy factor in French politics, he created the "Institut du Monde Arabe" in order to give France some influence in Arab affairs.

I admit that it sounds like science fiction but I might favour Lebanon and Israel/Palestine and Jordan uniting into a federal country, possibly taking over the Jordanian King as constitutional head of state. There always would (will) be a majorty of a combination of free enterprise oriented folks plus economy oriented leftwingers who in combination would block our Muslim fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews for eternity  
 
lewis
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:00 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
Quoting lewis (Reply 1):
Has the US given any reason for this? Do they demand certain criteria to be met

A) The USA is a protectorate of Israel
B) The US foreign politics is defined in Israel
C) The Israeli Prime Minister defines
D) The advice of the Israeli leadership is recognized as law in the White House
-
in case of doubt, ask the Israeli ambassador to the USA, the man in charge
with US foreign politics

I won't argue with that. But I am asking, what is the official reason given?

I was also surprised about Canada, why is there such strong opposition from them?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 25):
Really?

Weren't you supporting in another thread that the US was indeed run by the Jewish because of the power of the Jewish vote in the country? When you say something, you better stick to it.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:10 pm

Quoting Centre (Thread starter):
The US administration has said it will veto any resolution ensuring the further isolation of Israel and the US.

The US needs to think long and hard before they use veto this. As you say it will only serve to isolate the US with the the greater ME community.

Quoting lewis (Reply 1):
Has the US given any reason for this?

None that I'm aware of, apart from blindly supporting Israel under any circumstances.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):
Why would Israel 'kick out' Arabs with Israeli citizenship?

Why would they you ask, because they are already considered second class citizens. Discrimination faces them every day, from family living together, right through to the type of jobs they have.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
The best would be either a federation or an eastern mediterranean "EU". Jerusalem should go under international, neutral control until tensions have disappeared.

Yes I agree with you Jan. Jerusalem needs to be under international control. That way it can be enjoyed by all religious groups.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Does it mean it is wrong?

Probably, yes.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Yes returning all the Palestinians to Jordan would make one state.

Yeah right, and what about those that have never had anything to do with Jordan. How on earth would that work ?

Quoting damirc (Reply 22):
The world owes them this much.

Well said, it certainly dose. And not only that, the entire world deserves closure on this, once and for all.


Quoting lewis (Reply 26):
Weren't you supporting in another thread that the US was indeed run by the Jewish because of the power of the Jewish vote in the country? When you say something, you better stick to it.

Bingo !! Your absolutely right
Nothing like being caught out.

[Edited 2011-09-14 13:12:13]

[Edited 2011-09-14 13:21:51]

[Edited 2011-09-14 16:29:19 by srbmod]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
victrola
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:13 pm

And finally, the Arabs
inside Israel proper
in East Jerusalem
in the WestBank
in the Gaza Territory
in a not too distant future will outnumber the Jews in all these territories combined

This is an important issue that nobody seems to want to address and the most serious long term issue Israel has to face. What should Israel do about its demographic problem?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:41 pm

I know Israel has been picked on many years and is fighting an uphill battle most the time, but grow up, compromise, give them some land and statehood, maybe some good would ensue? At least then you won't look like the bad guys!
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
baroque
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:08 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 29):
What should Israel do about its demographic problem?

That appears to be why they are taking a hard line on expulsions. Can anyone think of another country making similar forced expulsions. I am unhappy with Australia booting out non citizens who get a criminal record, but to get yr cards from Israel you do not need to be a crim.

I wonder if the US has thought through its position at the UN. I know it is the thing in the US to rubbish the UN, but with the GWOT, who is picking up the pieces after Powells bull in a China shop came true, why the UN. It will be very inconvenient for the US in Iraq, Afghanistan and gawd only knows where else if the UN gets pissed off with the US. This might be putting a few too many straws on the camels back, especially bearing in mind the US downsizing so many Sec Ccl resolutions so that Israel can ignore them without running into too much trouble. But trouble does tend to accumulate. And times they are a changing. Arab spring what will the autumn bring?

[Edited 2011-09-14 16:29:43 by srbmod]
 
Centre
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:36 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 24):
And finally, the Arabs
inside Israel proper
in East Jerusalem
in the WestBank
in the Gaza Territory
in a not too distant future will outnumber the Jews in all these territories combined.

Thus the request for recognizing Israel as a Jewish state!!!
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
babybus
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:21 pm

There is obviously a need for a Palastinian state the way there was for a Jewish state.

I say it's about time Palestine got defined borders and a governing body. This fracas has been going on for too long and creating a defined place for the Palestinians to call home would be the easiest solution.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:24 pm

Why is Canada asking for the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, is this something the US asked them to do so they didn't have to do it themselves ?

I understand the will to flee an actual or perceived oppression to go live in a country where you're welcome and can be with like-minded people, but seriously, this ethnic/religious definition of Israel is worrying. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it furthers xenophobia/antisemitism, after all, if Jews don't want non-Jews in their country, why should other countries keep their Jews ?

PS : about the perceived part, I'm thinking of my country, France, where Jews are quite numerous (no actual statistics as far as I know as they're forbidden for obvious reasons, but rumored to be the third population after Israel and US), and some are emigrating to Israel citing oppression : of course, Israel is probably more dangerous for them than France !

PS2 : probably because I'm French, I don't like defining people by their religion/ethnicity, but I did it here because there is no other way to talk about this. My brother's girlfriend is (secular) Jew and I learned it after about 4 years knowing her...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
connies4ever
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:58 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 31):
Why is Canada asking for the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, is this something the US asked them to do so they didn't have to do it themselves ?

Basically because we have a one-man government (Steven Harper, PM) and he is an evangelical. And we all know how the evangelicals feel about Israel. There are many other evangelicals in the government as well. God (literally) only knows what legislation lies in the future.

Case in point re future legislation: crime in Canada has been dropping steadily for a generation. Ask any police chief. This government's policy: build more prisons to incarcerate more people for longer sentences, including minors. How can more people be incarcerated if crime is going down ? Well, the previous minister responsible for the prison system said out loud that the government was going to go after "people who committed unreported crimes". WTF ???

No more community-based sentencing. Crap, even Texas is moving in that direction. It's cheaper and it works. No more credit for time served awaiting trial.

But, because we have a bunch of thumpers in the government, it's "spare the rod and spoil the boy".
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elmothehobo
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:32 am

The great irony in all this is that 63 years ago, Israel became a state through a very similar process. Israel and its allies will now deny another state this same right to exist.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 6):
Then why do they want Israel to be wiped off the map?

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/05/pa....html

... and Israel denies the Palestinian's right to exist?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Pointless debate. There already is an independent Palestinian state. It's called Jordan.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Yes returning all the Palestinians to Jordan would make one state.

Only problem is that "returning" the Palestinians to Jordan would mean that the Palestinians came from Jordan, which they did not. Lest you forgot your own history, the last major expulsion of Palestinians after the Six Day War led to an ethnic imbalance that nearly brought down the Hashemite kingdom, before the PLO was (again) expelled and sent to Lebanon, where it actually brought down an entire government and led to a 15 year long civil war.

I'd prefer that we don't have a repeat of 1967-1990 in Levant.
 
777way
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:06 am

Quoting Centre (Reply 3):
Canada on the other hand request the recognition of Israel as a "Jewish State"

Oh so now it being recongsied as a country with right to exist isnt good enough.

[Edited 2011-09-14 20:20:16]
 
TheCol
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:36 am

Which Palestinian state? Last time I checked there were 2 separate Palestinian territories, one of which is being ruled by an Iranian backed Islamofascist terrorist organization. Obviously nobody has thought this through. It would be extremely foolish for the UN to recognize a Palestinian state that isn't unified. It will only serve to legitimize a terrorist organization, destabilize the region further, and hand the strategic keys to Iran.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 25):
Jerusalem needs to be under international control.

I don't see how a lame-duck bureaucracy can establish a successful one somewhere else.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:52 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Yes returning all the Palestinians to Jordan would make one state.


Then why not return all Israeli immigrants to there mother countries?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Correct


100% BS

Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
An ally that supports terrorist around the world...yeah


If only i could get a Dollar each time somebody says that without a proof i will retire today.

I am sure if common sense prevail in Israel this problem will be solved, but it seems they for now are not interested in peace.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
windy95
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:40 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
Including those who never came from Jordan and have never set a foot into this country?

Well actually they all come from Trans-Jordan.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
Then why not return all Israeli immigrants to there mother countries?

Yes give them the right to return to all of the Muslim countries they where expelled from after 47-48. Including rights to lost property. More Jews where exppelled than Arabs that left Israel. Cold hard facts...

Quoting TheCol (Reply 35):
Which Palestinian state? Last time I checked there were 2 separate Palestinian territories, one of which is being ruled by an Iranian backed Islamofascist terrorist organization.

Bingo...Give up Gaza for a bigger chunk of the West Bank or the other way around. A seperated Palestinian state will not solve anything. A land swap of some sort with a unified Palestinian government to take over will be the only solution.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:35 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
More Jews where exppelled than Arabs that left Israel. Cold hard facts


Expelled or immigrated to the so called promised land? Real facts.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:04 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
Including those who never came from Jordan and have never set a foot into this country?

Well actually they all come from Trans-Jordan.

Oh, yeah? So the whole stretch of land between the Mediterranean and the river Jordan was completely empty until 1948?

Jan
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n229nw
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:36 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 20):
Quoting n229nw (Reply 16):
An ideal solution for me would be a one-state solution with freedom of religion for all.

Yes returning all the Palestinians to Jordan would make one state.

Including those who never came from Jordan and have never set a foot into this country?

He knows that is not what I meant...there is no point in arguing with him.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 38):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
More Jews where exppelled than Arabs that left Israel. Cold hard facts

Expelled or immigrated to the so called promised land? Real facts.

Real facts are: both. Many were expelled and many left voluntarily.

Same as with the Palestinians: real facts are a good deal left because the Arabs told them to leave and they would come back soon after Israel was destroyed. Others were driven out, by brutal force or by intimidation and fear.

There is plenty of evidence for all these facts, but partisans of one side or the other just ignore the parts that aren't convenient to their arguments.

This debate simply won't get anywhere if people on both sides keep pretending that one side was totally angelic and the other side was pure evil. Both sides are human and made mistakes.

Anyway, I wish the Palestinians good luck with this vote. Although it will be vetoed by the U.S., it will be an important step in putting pressure on Israel to do the right thing. However, since it it will be vetoed, the Palestinian authority will also have to play their cards right afterward.
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Centre
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:49 pm

Staying with the topic of the thread,
It appears that the Palestinians will submit their bid on September 23:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...KPON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

an interesting read at the NY Times today:

Quote:
Now, Mr. Obama is risking American ties with a fast-changing Arab world by vowing to veto the Palestinians’ statehood bid at the United Nations. The president supports a two-state solution but rightly believes that can be achieved only through negotiations.

His diplomats are working with allies to persuade the Palestinians that a United Nations vote would be costly for them too, once the euphoria fades in the West Bank and it is clear that little has changed. They are hoping to restart negotiations by defining the main elements of an agreement that guarantees Israel’s security and provides the Palestinians with a viable state. They should put a map and a timeline on the table and demand that both sides join in.

Mr. Netanyahu should be worried that his country is more isolated now than when he took office. That isolation will deepen so long as negotiations remain stalemated. No vote in New York City makes that any less true — or any less dangerous for Israel.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/15/op...trict.html?hp#&wtoeid=growl1_r1_v1

Before I proceed, I would suggest to everyone to watch this vedio:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/middle_east_peace_now/?cl=1234506781&v=10053

The real question is: Should the US veto such a bid for statehood by the Palestinians?

Putting the question in a different way: What will the US loose if the DO NOT Veto the Palestinian bid for Statehood?

Why should the US cut ties with the region for the sake of the right wing government in Israel, where many Israelis actually call for two state solution.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...-palestinian-state-period-1.384559

Quote:
On Wednesday, a coalition of Israeli peace organizations published a list of 50 reasons for Israel to support a Palestinian state. Assuming that you only accept five of them, isn't that enough? What exactly is the alternative, now that the heavens are closing in around us?

How much credibility will the US have in the region and internationally, after such a veto?
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victrola
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:06 pm

Israel still has not faced the fact that it will have to do something about the Arab inhabitans in the territories it has conquered. They only have the following choices:

1) Give them full citizenship and thereby risk losing the Jewish character of the country.

2) Expel them. I'm sure this would be a major political and humanitarian disaster and exhaust any sympathy the world has for them (except for America's Christian Right)

3) Cordon them off in some sort of "Bantustans" with few to no political rights ala the old South Africa.

4) Pull back to borders that assure that as few Arabs as possible are within Israel.

Does anyone see any other alternatives?
 
baroque
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:14 pm

Quoting Centre (Reply 41):
What will the US loose if the DO NOT Veto the Palestinian bid for Statehood?

Not a lot you would think and gain quite a bit.

One side in the argument tends to duchess large numbers of western world pollies at "leadership" forums and who knows what else. That has an extraordinary effect in many countries. The pollies tend to have a different view to the folk they are supposed to represent.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:45 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
But I am asking, what is the official reason given?

No "official reason" is given from the US side, but several Israeli Prime Ministers have been quite open about this thing, and usually explained it by "we have the right people in the right places". In the USA it means that people closely linked to Israel dominate the important media in the Washington/DC-Boston-corridor, where foreign politics is done.

In view of the growing position of Arab Americans and the heavy position of EX-Cubans (etc), I might recommend to the "WASPs" (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) to become more involved in foreign politics and putting THEIR positions and interests into practice. THAT may not be to my liking or the liking of anybody else, but is their simple right. The idea, started by David Ben Gurion, that the interests of Israel and the USA (and the West in general) are the same is complete rubbish.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 25):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
The best would be either a federation or an eastern mediterranean "EU". Jerusalem should go under international, neutral control until tensions have disappeared.

Yes I agree with you Jan. Jerusalem needs to be under international control. That way it can be enjoyed by all religious groups.

I favour a compromise, meaning that WEST-Jerusalem should stay fully Israeli, the Wailing Wall should become an extra-territorial Israeli territory (including much of the area outside the elAqsa and the OmarMosque but within the area of the former temple, but EAST Jerusalem (the Arab inhabited areas) to be internationalized with the exception of a few buildings for the Arab Republic of Palestine. All this sounds complicated but definitely IS possible      

Quoting victrola (Reply 26):
What should Israel do about its demographic problem?

First of all, "the" Israelis might start with realising WHERE they are
   and then look at options like REALLY going forward to establish an Arab Republic of Palestine, which in the framework of a peace-treaty may have to accept Jewish citizens (double-citizens or triple citizens) and going forward in productive solutions like a separated transit-road between the WestBank and Gaza, kept completely separate from Israel by the way of tunnels etc. Going forward to build, in co-operation with the Palestinians, a tunnel from West Jerusalem to the Wailing Wall. Going forward to build, just between the el-Aqsa Mosque and the Wailing Wall, a "copy" of their old Temple. Just imagine, a combination of the old Jerusalem churches, the Wailing Wall, a Temple-Rebuild, the el-Aqsa Mosque and the Omar Mosque !    This would become one of the most important tourist places of the Mediterranean !

Quoting TheCol (Reply 35):
foolish for the UN to recognize a Palestinian state that isn't unified.

-
A) the U.N. should specifically recognize the WestBank/Ramallah Palestine which IS Palestine.
B) I doubt that there ever will be a REAL re-unification, as there is no real reason. The West Bank and East Jerusalem on one side and the Gaza Territory on the other never had too much in common. They even speak quite a different variant of Arabic. And the WestBank/EastJer. folks culturally and economically and historically are closely linked to Jordan and Syria plus Lebanon, while the Gaza Territory was and is linked to Egypt

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
give them the right to return to all of the Muslim countries they where expelled from after 47-48. Including rights to lost property. More Jews where exppelled than Arabs that left Israel. Cold hard facts...

-
A) most Arab countries where Jews came from after 1948 like Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt DO allow Jewish returnees back "home" and some like Yemen even are actively encouraging Jews in Israel to return.
B) Most Arab (Sephardi) Israelis come from Egypt and the Maghreb, and the Arabic of the Maghrebis is practically not understood by the Palestinians (cold hard fact)
C) I know a Jew who staid on in Cairo until about 1960. He told me that the Jews in Egypt suffered from the state-socialism introduced in the 1950ies. In fact, also Jews around the globe profited from the compensation program started by Anwar Sadat in his "Infitah" program
D) look at it from the other side. People who grew up in flamboyant Tel Aviv, used to a certain prosperity and stability, and to the entertaining life in this great city, do not see much reason to "return" to potentially unstable and at worst evend dangerous, and poor and far from affluent Arab countries. Be practical, and go to any Arab airport and change money. It generally is between acceptable and a nightmare (Damascus Airport to be mentioned) and then go to TLV airport and use that splendid money-exchange computer in the arrival hall !

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
Then why not return all Israeli immigrants to there mother countries?

-
NO, not only would this the a DEPORTATION of people who got "immigrated" as children, it simply would be to deport people who chose the Levantine coastline as their home. You might say that they "historically" had no right to move but A) the older ones fled the Nazi controlled German Empire and B) the younger ones fled from countries who at the time in question at the very least disciminated Jews
B) if everybody who had moved from/within the Mediterranean area had to move back "home" chaos would erupt
 
baroque
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:01 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 42):
Does anyone see any other alternatives?

Thas about it. But even if #3 gets a bit further down its track, it is not going to be admitted. As for the others, "unthinkable".

Interesting post MAF. Some really neat suggestions, bet none happens though. Much better to complain about "the others".  
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:07 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
I am sure if common sense prevail in Israel this problem will be solved, but it seems they for now are not interested in peace.

I don't think you come across that sort of terminology much in Israel.

And as for peace, Israel wants to continue building new settlements, so as long as they can keep the status quo, then eventually there will be no land left to argue about for the Palestinians

This is what the Israeli are really on about  
Quoting n229nw (Reply 40):
his debate simply won't get anywhere if people on both sides keep pretending that one side was totally angelic and the other side was pure evil. Both sides are human and made mistakes.

Good call !!

Quoting n229nw (Reply 40):
Anyway, I wish the Palestinians good luck with this vote.

Me too.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 40):
Although it will be vetoed by the U.S.

There by isolating themselves even more in the ME region.... Good move US

Quoting Centre (Reply 41):
How much credibility will the US have in the region and internationally, after such a veto?

Precisely none

Quoting Baroque (Reply 43):
The pollies tend to have a different view to the folk they are supposed to represent.

Yeah, isn't that so very true.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44):
"we have the right people in the right places".

Yes,I think this is very much part of the problem. The world can see quite plainly, that the US government is heavily influenced by Jewish lobby groups to the point of being that's its becoming absolutely ridiculous. From the way I see it, the US in many respects is just perpetuating the ongoing problems between the two sides.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
csavel
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:16 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 45):
he world can see quite plainly, that the US government is heavily influenced by Jewish lobby groups to the point of being that's its becoming absolutely ridiculous.

Actually US government support for Israel is driven more by *Christian* lobbying groups. I won't deny that the Jewish lobby is a powerful lobby, but before the evangelical Christian movement became powerful and "championed" Israel, the US government can and did sometimes put pressure on Israel, e.g. Bush the first refusing loan guarantees, or Reagan allowing the sale of AWACS planes to Saudi Arabia despite strong lobbying pressure from Israel and Jewish groups. both would be utterly unthinkable today mostly because everyone from Glen Beck, to Fox News, to Sarah Palin, to Rick Perry etc, would destroy any politician who voted for that.

In addition US Jews aren't monolithic, and many, if not most American Jews are pretty ambivalent about Netanyahu, and are more sympathetic to the Palestinian cause than is believed. Of course they may not be the ones in AIPAC making calls to politicians, so their influence might be modest, but the fact remains that nowadays the Christian religious right is the main driver of US Israel policy.

[Edited 2011-09-15 17:28:40]
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BA
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:43 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
Well actually they all come from Trans-Jordan.

That's as absurd as saying the Native Americans came from Europe.

Jordan became the country it is today, thanks to ethnically cleansed Palestinians that arrived in two waves, 1948 and 1967. 70% of Jordan's population are Palestinian, having come from WEST of the Jordan River.

Prior to 1948, Trans-Jordan was very sparsely populated.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
TheCol
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RE: Palestinian Bid For Statehood

Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:52 am

Quoting Centre (Reply 41):
Putting the question in a different way: What will the US loose if the DO NOT Veto the Palestinian bid for Statehood?

Iran and Hamas would be the only 2 that wouldn't lose out.

Quoting Centre (Reply 41):
where many Israelis actually call for two state solution.

Then they obviously haven't thought it through very well.

Quoting Centre (Reply 41):
Why should the US cut ties with the region for the sake of the right wing government in Israel, where many Israelis actually call for two state solution.

Better that than setting Israel up for a conflict with Iran and Co.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44):
A) the U.N. should specifically recognize the WestBank/Ramallah Palestine which IS Palestine.

How? There are 2 different factions running the same state, one of which stands against every tenant of democracy and freedom.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 44):
I doubt that there ever will be a REAL re-unification

Then a single Palestinian state, proposed under the 1967 boarders, will fail miserably and destabilize the entire region in the process.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.

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