fr8mech
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Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:33 am

It appears that the folks a running Occupy Wall Street have finally released a list of demands...and is this list a doozy.

1. Restoration of a living wage by eliminating free trade agreements, imposing import tariffs and raising the minimum wage to $20/hour.
Really? A return to isolationism will increase our quality of life? Oh yeah, who pays the $20/hr, but, I guess that's covered in 3. The truth is, you really don't need to work.

2. Create a single payer healthcare system while eliminating all private insurers.
Because the government is so good at being its own monopoly in anything.

3. Guaranteed living wage regardless of employment status.
Do I really need to say anything about this?

4. Free College Education
Ok, I can live with this with conditions. Prove that you can succeed in college. Maintain a 'B' average. If you flunk out, you pay for what you wasted. Of course there are concerns because there will be immediate tuition inflation by the schools.

5. End the fossil fuel economy while bringing the alternative fuel economy online.
Ok, find me an alternative fuel that can do what fossil can do as efficiently.

6. One trillion in infrastructure
Poof, here's a trillion dollars.

7. One trillion to restore the ecology
Once again, poof, here's a trillion.

8. Racial and gender equal rights amendment
I'll need more explanation here. There are so many laws on the books now, it would just be stupidly redundant.

9. Open borders migration
Ok, doesn't that kind of contradict #1? So anyone can go anywhere? Wow, that'll be fun.

10. Bring American elections up to international standards.
Bush stole the election is still their rallying cry. Though, I do believe that there should be a paper trail.

11. Across the board debt forgiveness
Awesome.

12. Outlaw credit reporting agencies
Really no need for them if you eliminate all debts.

13. Unionization
As far as I know, their demand is currently federal law.

Wow, I'm not sure if this is tongue in cheek or not, but I fear it is the truth. The people that put this list together really do not live in our world. They believe that life can be better simply by government fiat.

Just thought I should share.
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san747
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:48 am

They are proposed demands, not anything set in stone. Though the list is definitely excessive both in quantity of demands and practicality of a couple of them, some of them are good ideas that should at least be explored instead of dismissed with a snarky comment.

Which I'm sure the commenters on "FOX Nation" are more than willing to do.  
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NoUFO
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:50 am

Hm, there's a newer list on the campaign website that does not read like a freak show and is not partially contradictory.
First and foremost, it is more focussed:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/propos...demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/
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wukka
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:57 am

Damn! The only rational thing that I see in that list is #10. All the rest... wow!

If this is what it's coming down to, here is what I want... a box that I can lay in and rest in the dirt for eternity, or at least until someone digs me up to build a Wal Mart.

Goddamn train wreck is what we have here.
We can agree to disagree.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:20 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 2):
Hm, there's a newer list on the campaign website that does not read like a freak show and is not partially contradictory.

Both lists are on their website. They don't know what they want. Guaranteed $20/hour, whether or not you work, AND open borders? That'll work well...
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:48 pm

What were you expecting from these idiots, consistency? Just look at the below link.

http://www.metro.us/newyork/local/ar...downtown-taken-over-by-living-dead

The protesters mocked corporate jobs even as they continued to voice discontent over unemployment.

“It’s not just corporate people,” said 22-year-old Alex Krales. “A lot of us feel that it is our duty to make money all the time and completely ignore any other needs we have in life. I just quit my full-time job that had literally sucked away my soul because I felt like I needed to make money.”

So you are protesting against unemployment and you just quit a job you had because it was boring and did not "fulfill" you? I wonder what demand #14 will be, that all jobs must be rewarding and allow people to "express their inner selves"?
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racko
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:58 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Both lists are on their website. They don't know what they want. Guaranteed $20/hour, whether or not you work, AND open borders? That'll work well...

How dare they have a forum with open discussions??

Airliners.net demands list

1. Ban hats!

Fox News: Airliners.net community demands the banning of hats. Conservatives outraged!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:46 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 6):
How dare they have a forum with open discussions??

Chill out. Can't we have a laugh?

These jokers are morons. If they think that they have any credibility whatsoever, they are mistaken.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
“It’s not just corporate people,” said 22-year-old Alex Krales. “A lot of us feel that it is our duty to make money all the time and completely ignore any other needs we have in life. I just quit my full-time job that had literally sucked away my soul because I felt like I needed to make money.”

Case in point. These folks think that it is their right to earn plenty of money doing something they love to do, like playing guitar or hanging out in the park.

To quote educator and author Charles Sykes:

Rule 1. Life is not fair; get used to it.

Rule 2. The world won't care about your self esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.

Rule 3. You will NOT make $40,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice president with a car phone, until you earn both.

Rule 4. If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. He doesn't have tenure.

Rule 5. Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your grandparents had a different word for burger flipping; they called it opportunity.

Rule 6. If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

Rule 7. Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parents' generation, try "debugging" the closet in your own room.

Rule 8. Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life has not. In some schools they have abolished failing grades; they'll give you as many times as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

Rule 9. Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

Rule 10. Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

Rule 11. Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Newark727
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:49 pm

This mocking, outraged reaction kind of reminds me of how my side of the aisle sounded when the Tea Party first showed up, and we all know how that went. Granted, the demographics of the protesters are different.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:51 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 8):
This mocking, outraged reaction kind of reminds me of how my side of the aisle sounded when the Tea Party first showed up, and we all know how that went. Granted, the demographics of the protesters are different.

And that makes all the difference. The Tea Party protests were made up, for the most part, by taxpayers. With jobs. The reason the Tea Party never did such a long-lasting protest in front of the Capitol is that they had to back to work on Monday.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
san747
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:54 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):

Yeah, to hell with their idealism! What delusional, naive idiots they are for passionately fighting for a cause they think is important!! Goddamn it, its in-American!!!

Everything I hear from conservatives (most of whom CLEARLY do not remember what it was like to be young) is that this generation is apathetic and selfish and unwilling to sacrifice and work hard and not interested in important issues. Then something like this happens and conservatives call them jokes/morons with no credibility. Sounds like most of you are upset that some kids in this generation turned out liberal.

Oh and by the way, though there may be spoiled brats among the ranks (hipster kids of rich parents, whom I can't stand as much as everyone else), I have plenty of friends, even in this bad economy, who are/have worked fast food jobs (including myself) to pay through college. All but 3 of my friends who have their Bachelors degree have jobs paying over $50,000 yearly. Every school I've ever been to, even in big bad liberal brainwashing California has had failing grades, and I even earned one in high school.

I'm sure it felt good to copy and paste that guy's quotes and feel a sense of superiority over us shitty, spoiled and ungrateful kids, but the truth is that the amount of people my age who really need to be knocked over the head with that crap is almost zero. I know this might make your brain explode- but our generation is really not any different than yours. We believe in the value of hard work and accomplishment, but we also care about the well-being of others on our community and country.
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norcal
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:55 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
1. Restoration of a living wage by eliminating free trade agreements, imposing import tariffs and raising the minimum wage to $20/hour.
Really? A return to isolationism will increase our quality of life? Oh yeah, who pays the $20/hr, but, I guess that's covered in 3. The truth is, you really don't need to work

$20/hr is a ridiculous living wage standard but our current minimum wage standard could use some improvement.

Tariffs are a terrible idea though we need to put more pressure on countries like China to stop currency manipulation

I would like to see special tax breaks available to companies that produce jobs in America. Give those companies a huge break on taxes, like lower the rate to the 15-20% effective range (current is about 35% right?) and let companies that ship jobs over seas pay their current tax rate. Let foreign companies that set up shop here enjoy the lower tax rate as well.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
2. Create a single payer healthcare system while eliminating all private insurers.
Because the government is so good at being its own monopoly in anything.

Agreed, though health care reforms needs to happen but this has more to do with all the frivolous law suits that greatly increase the cost of our current system. Remove a lot of the lawyers and let doctors do their jobs.

Something should be done about the uninsured because they are a huge drain on the system because they go to the emergency room for care instead of a doctor's office. The "how" is obviously difficult to answer but something needs to be done. Preferably a non-governement option.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
3. Guaranteed living wage regardless of employment status.
Do I really need to say anything about this?

Ridiculous, get a job like everyone else

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
4. Free College Education
Ok, I can live with this with conditions. Prove that you can succeed in college. Maintain a 'B' average. If you flunk out, you pay for what you wasted. Of course there are concerns because there will be immediate tuition inflation by the schools.

College doesn't have to be free, but the sky rocketing costs need to be addressed. Our regular education system also needs to be addressed as well.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
5. End the fossil fuel economy while bringing the alternative fuel economy online.
Ok, find me an alternative fuel that can do what fossil can do as efficiently.

We need to quick our Middle East oil addiction. I'm sorry but it makes zero sense what so ever to ship billions of dollars a year to countries that hate us.

We should strive to be more efficient with what we use and we should research green technology because we have a finite amount of resources on this planet (this applies to more than just fossil fuels) and we need to learn to do more with less. Improving efficiency is a fundamental tenet of capitalism so there is no reason we shouldn't try and do this even if it does involve a little government subsidization.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
6. One trillion in infrastructure
Poof, here's a trillion dollars.

This is obviously a ridiculous amount of money but poor infrastructure costs our economy billions in lost productivity every year. We need efficient infrastructure to compete in the modern world. Furthermore this gets people off of welfare and contributing to society (obviously not these protestors though)

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
7. One trillion to restore the ecology
Once again, poof, here's a trillion.

Again ridiculous amount of money but we should protect our environment. I don't like breathing polluted air or drinking polluted water anymore then the next person.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
8. Racial and gender equal rights amendment
I'll need more explanation here. There are so many laws on the books now, it would just be stupidly redundant.

I'm not sure what this means but at the very least marriage for all

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
9. Open borders migration
Ok, doesn't that kind of contradict #1? So anyone can go anywhere? Wow, that'll be fun.

Immigration reform needs to happen we are constantly educating some very smart people and then sending them home to their countries where they work for or start competing companies with American companies. Let them stay here and create the next Google here. While making naturalization easier we should also secure our borders.

10. I'm not even sure what this means

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
11. Across the board debt forgiveness
Awesome.

Hahaha.......no

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
12. Outlaw credit reporting agencies
Really no need for them if you eliminate all debts.

Ridiculous

13. We can already unionize if we choose. No employee group should be forced to if they don't want to.
 
seb146
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:56 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
1. Restoration of a living wage by eliminating free trade agreements, imposing import tariffs and raising the minimum wage to $20/hour.

We didn't have free trade agreements up to the 1990s AND we had tariffs up to the 1980s. Things went pretty well until then.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
2. Create a single payer healthcare system while eliminating all private insurers.

Where is the government involved? I don't see that. I see they just want a single payer system created.


Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
3. Guaranteed living wage regardless of employment status.

I guess not everyone believes in the American dream of having shelter and food. I do believe people should work for a wage, but that wage should be able to cover shelter, food, and utilities. Currently, it does not.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
5. End the fossil fuel economy while bringing the alternative fuel economy online.
Ok, find me an alternative fuel that can do what fossil can do as efficiently.

Algea. Biofuel from corn and soy. They could get the same results from hemp (which is NOT marijuana) but it is illegal to grow.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
6. One trillion in infrastructure
Poof, here's a trillion dollars.

Really? Banks are sitting on trillions of dollars. Congress makes trillions of dollars out of thin air. But, it only works when the right wing and private industry want it?

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
10. Bring American elections up to international standards.
Bush stole the election is still their rallying cry. Though, I do believe that there should be a paper trail

Huh? The electoral college is a complete joke and waste of time! It has nothing to do with the *federal* supreme court ruling on a *state* election. And now, corporations want elections with no paper trail. Our system is truly a joke.

Quoting racko (Reply 6):
How dare they have a forum with open discussions??

Here is something the "evil" liberal talk radio has pointed out for the weeks this protest has been going on: The MSM has been taking what they believe are the dumbest of the protesters and parading them around saying "See??? This stupidity is what this stupid protest is all about!! We must quash this protest and be against it because one person we found is stupid, they are all stupid!!" Kinda like the tea people. Because a few people run around sounding like idiots, they all must be idiots.
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lewis
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:01 pm

I can agree with the free education IF someone can maintain good grades all the way.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
1. Restoration of a living wage by eliminating free trade agreements, imposing import tariffs and raising the minimum wage to $20/hour.
Really? A return to isolationism will increase our quality of life? Oh yeah, who pays the $20/hr, but, I guess that's covered in 3. The truth is, you really don't need to work.
Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):

3. Guaranteed living wage regardless of employment status.
Do I really need to say anything about this?

If you can get the $20/hr either way, why work then? What would the incentive be?
 
Newark727
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):

And that makes all the difference. The Tea Party protests were made up, for the most part, by taxpayers. With jobs. The reason the Tea Party never did such a long-lasting protest in front of the Capitol is that they had to back to work on Monday.

My point remains (especially since I'm sure plenty of these protesters have in fact worked and paid taxes.) Just like the left did with the Tea Party in its early phases, you're writing off a potentially important or potentially valid political activity as just lunatics and morons. And there's a good chance you're right and that this will fizzle out soon. But it stifles our discourse to write them off that way as soon as they appear.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:16 pm

Meanwhile, some of us are busting our a**es to get a rewarding job. And doing it without complaining for the government to give it to me! Thank you to my parents for instilling drive in me...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:06 pm

You guys realize that the people occupying wall street come from all walks of life and from all political ideologies?

The mainstream media in the US amazes me. FOX is saying it's a bunch of left wing hippies, but CNN shows it as some crazy tea party thing. Both groups (and the majority being somewhere in between) are protesting on Wall st. This isn't about being anti-capitalist, it's about being anti-corruption.
 
san747
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:42 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 16):
You guys realize that the people occupying wall street come from all walks of life and from all political ideologies?

The mainstream media in the US amazes me. FOX is saying it's a bunch of left wing hippies, but CNN shows it as some crazy tea party thing. Both groups (and the majority being somewhere in between) are protesting on Wall st. This isn't about being anti-capitalist, it's about being anti-corruption.

No, they don't realize it, for pretty much the exact reason you stated.
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fr8mech
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:50 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 8):
Granted, the demographics of the protesters are different.

Different how? Go ahead and say it. Looking at the pictures, I really don't see a difference in 'demographics'.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):
Where is the government involved?

Well, since they are calling for the abolition of private insurance companies, it follows that they are looking for the government to be the single payer.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):
I guess not everyone believes in the American dream of having shelter and food. I do believe people should work for a wage, but that wage should be able to cover shelter, food, and utilities. Currently, it does not.

They are demanding that a person make a living wage whether they are working or not.

"Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment"

That's not the American Dream...that's a pipe dream.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):

Really? Banks are sitting on trillions of dollars. Congress makes trillions of dollars out of thin air. But, it only works when the right wing and private industry want it?

Banks are sitting on the money because they are scared of what this administration may do. And, since when is it the banks or corporation's responsibility to maintain the infrastructure? Yes, Congress can print all the money it wants (actually, I believe it is the Executive, but let's no quibble) but, where does it come from and when do we pay the piper. I'll also ask, where are my fuel tax dollars? You know, the tax I pay every time I pump gas. Those are funds that are supposed to handle, at least, the road portion of our infrastructure.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):
The electoral college is a complete joke and waste of time!

Who said anything about the Electoral College. They claim our election processes aren't up to international standards. I believe our election process is just fine, but I would like to have a paper trail.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
I can agree with the free education IF someone can maintain good grades all the way.

Even though I support it, it can never happen. We would have to deal with tuition inflation (hey, the government is paying, raise tuitiion another 30%) and grade inflation since we're tying payment to grades. The second would be easirer to control than the first. The first would require government price controls.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
If you can get the $20/hr either way, why work then? What would the incentive be?

ding, ding, ding. Why work when I'm guaranteed a 'wage'?

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 16):
You guys realize that the people occupying wall street come from all walks of life and from all political ideologies?

I really don't see that, at all. These folks come from the Left.
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kngkyle
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:10 pm

It seems to me these protesters are misguided. They should be mad at congress for letting corporations have so much influence on elections and policy.

Oh and btw this list is a joke. Some forumer posted this list on the occupy wallstreet forums, not an actual leader of the group or anything. It would be like an anutter posting a list of their 'demands' and then that is somehow representative of what every airliners.net member wants.
This topic is a farce. Not surprised Fox News picked up on it.

[Edited 2011-10-05 13:14:03]
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:18 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
I really don't see that, at all. These folks come from the Left.

I've seen news reports (from various non-US sources) that show it's quite a mix of people. Many different demands, but the overall sentiment is the same. They are upset about the power Wall Street and the banks have on your Government. The US media just cherry picks to fit their networks political leanings. FOX only showing hardcore left wingers. CNN only showing Tea Party groups.
 
san747
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting Kngkyle (Reply 19):
Oh and btw this list is a joke. Some forumer posted this list on the occupy wallstreet forums, not an actual leader of the group or anything. It would be like an anutter posting a list of their 'demands' and then that is somehow representative of what every airliners.net member wants.
This topic is a farce. Not surprised Fox News picked up on it.

Thank you. People act like this is their manifesto when the very first word on the page says PROPOSED.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
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falstaff
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:15 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
raising the minimum wage to $20/hour.


If they got that I would demand a much higher wage. I don't make much more than that now and my job is worth much more than minium wage.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Bring American elections up to international standards.


Who's standards? Of course the usual worthless hippy thinks international means western Europe.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
13. Unionization


We already have the freedom to unionize.

Quoting san747 (Reply 10):
Yeah, to hell with their idealism! What delusional, naive idiots they are for passionately fighting for a cause they think is important!! Goddamn it, its in-American!!!


Screw em'.... Their idealism is stupid! If you are going to stand for something stand up for something you might actually be able to change.

I remember when I was in school there was so many idiots that were outraged by stuff in the world that they had no power to change and sitting around smoking weed drinking coffee isn't going to change that. Things looks simple when you are young and in school.

One thing that all these hippies forget is that they have the freedom to succeed and the freedom to fail.

If they complain they can't get jobs that pay well or a job at all I have one suggestion. Take classes for something that is actually in demand. You can get some useless degree in humanities and starve or go to trade school and learn to weld and work.

We need some good 1960s cops to start beating these hippies and dragging them off to jail. I heard some dumb student talking yesterday, on Sean Hannity's radio show, that she was ok with risking her scholarship to protest. How dumb is that. Lets say she loses it and since this protest will accomplish nothing she wasted it. I wonder what she will say when she is 35 and working some worthless job or paying back a huge loan because because protesting something pointless screwed her.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 20):
FOX only showing hardcore left wingers.


I would bet that the full timers down at the protests are ultra lefties, the type so far to the left they are just full time students, because they can't hold a real job. The right wingers and the garden variety lefties are too busy at work to spend too much time down there. My dad was in college 1966-1970 and never once (or so he claims) engaged in protesting. He and his friends were too busy working to pay for school to worry about marching for the injustices of the day. I have heard that a lot... protesters tend to be young and fairly well off. There are also some professionals too... My union was protesting at Michigan's capitol a while back and many of the protestors were not actual union members, but people paid to be there and college students that didn't have anything better to do. They did put on an impressive show and the pictures on TV and in the paper were very impressive.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):
do believe people should work for a wage, but that wage should be able to cover shelter, food, and utilities. Currently, it does not.


Maybe these hippies need to move out of New York City and come to Detroit. There is a lot of affordable housing here.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:29 pm

Quoting san747 (Reply 10):
Yeah, to hell with their idealism! What delusional, naive idiots they are for passionately fighting for a cause they think is important!! Goddamn it, its in-American!!!

On the contrary, it is American to work for changes. Some changes, no matter how great they are, are just unachievable. I'd love to see minimum wage at $20 but that is completely unrealistic. I know the validity of the first list is under question, but I still don't think these protesters have much of a clue what's going on. They need to go back, do their homework on what they are protesting and that it is actually realistic then come back as long as it isn't jeopardizing their jobs or school (something millions wish they had)
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MCOGVADCA
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:30 pm

I've never seen a group of people with such a feeble grasp on economics or how the economy functions in general than the OWS. This speech is indicative of just how minimal their level of comprehension is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1VVXsWRU

They have a few decent points (especially pertaining to lobbying) but have very little idea how Wall Street works or what it actually is. Most interviews I've seen consist of regurgitated talking points with little textured understanding of the differential effects of the policies that are currently in place.

Additionally, what I find particularly irksome is the air of profundity with which so many of these armchair economists make their declarations. Here's a hint: if you were able to glean something from your one semester of macroeconomics, there's probably a reason why it hasn't been tried, or it has been tried, and hasn't worked.

Finally, I can't think of a more appropriate example as to why our education system needs a complete overhaul. I mean, seriously. Thank you, OWS, for demonstrating that the religious right indeed does not have a monopoly on ignorance in this country.
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victrola
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:40 pm

The United States is doomed. There are no longer any middle of the road people willing to listen to the reasonable arguements of the other side and to come to good solutions to our problems. The extreme left and extreme right live in their own worlds and since they only talk to like minded people, their extremist viewpoints never face challenges. They are never forced to hone their viewpoints as the result of intelligent debate. Polarized societies always come to a bad end.

While the Wall Street protesters betray a serious lack of understanding of economics, the Wall Street bankers themselves have done enormous damage to the cause of free markets.You can't preach the benefits of the free market and at the same time demand that the government bails you out for your own stupid economic decisions. Everyone wants the benefits that free markets bring to us but they want someone else to shoulder their risk.
 
flymia
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:08 pm

(Reply 23):
but I still don't think these protesters have much of a clue what's going on.
Quoting MCOGVADCA (Reply 24):
I've never seen a group of people with such a feeble grasp on economics or how the economy functions in general than the OWS. This speech is indicative of just how minimal their level of comprehension is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFz1V...XsWRU


I have a feeling that guy is the minority. He is a conservative he wants Ron Paul. I would vote for him too if I thought he had a shot to win.

Anyway I don't understand what they want. A free life? $20 minimum wage really? Do they want our economy to be improved or government regulation? They want bigger government? I really don't understand their viewpoint and so far it does not look like I will need to really care. But it is "catching on". However given the people who are there and the people supporting it I don't see much hope for them thankfully, but we never know. Things need to change and get better but I do not think these people have any feasible or intelligent ideas.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:25 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
He is a conservative he wants Ron Paul

Don't roll Ron Paul in with Conservatives. He might share some views, but he also shares some with Liberals. His platform is best described as the Dark Side of the Moon.
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fr8mech
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:27 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
But it is "catching on".

Wait until it gets cold out.

Quoting victrola (Reply 25):
There are no longer any middle of the road people willing to listen to the reasonable arguements of the other side and to come to good solutions to our problems.

No, there are plenty if middle of the roaders. The problem occurs when an extremer gets elected to high office. That brings out the other extreme. We will find balance again, but before that happens, we will swing to the other extreme a bit.

Quoting victrola (Reply 25):
demand that the government bails you out for your own stupid economic decisions

Actually, as I recall, the banks didn't demand to be bailed out. They may have requested assistance, but the government bailed them out because it was necessary to our (and the world's) psychological well being. By the way, as I recall, all that money has been paid back.
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seb146
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:47 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
since they are calling for the abolition of private insurance companies, it follows that they are looking for the government to be the single payer.

So, then, you are just *assuming* they want the government to start single payer.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
They are demanding that a person make a living wage whether they are working or not.

"Guaranteed living wage income regardless of employment"

That's not the American Dream...that's a pipe dream.

I am all for working people making a living wage. That is: being able to afford to buy a home and pay utilities and eat. Can the average cashier at Wal-Mart do that?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Banks are sitting on the money because they are scared of what this administration may do. And, since when is it the banks or corporation's responsibility to maintain the infrastructure?

So, the banks can not lend money to contractors to keep our roads and bridges safe because of what *might* happen? They were not so concerned a few years ago about the consequences for handing out sub-prime mortgages. They were not so concerned a few years ago for speculating on oil prices.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
some of us are busting our a**es to get a rewarding job. And doing it without complaining for the government to give it to me!

Actually, these people are protesting to private industry. Not government. These people are protesting their student loans are too high and can not find work to pay off said loans for good degrees. So, if one way fails, we just give up, it sounds like is your way of thinking.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:14 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
So, then, you are just *assuming* they want the government to start single payer.

If they don't want insurance companies, who would be the single payer? Santa Claus?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):

I am all for working people making a living wage. That is: being able to afford to buy a home and pay utilities and eat. Can the average cashier at Wal-Mart do that?

Should they? It is costly in materials and labor to build a house.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
So, the banks can not lend money to contractors to keep our roads and bridges safe because of what *might* happen?

It's a question of covenants. You know what bank covenants are? Look them up. I have personal experience in this. Banks are willing to lend, but their covenants are much more restrictive than they were before 2008-9, which effectively loans harder to get - not because they can get them on the spot be businesses see the covenants as too restrictive and not worth the risk.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
They were not so concerned a few years ago about the consequences for handing out sub-prime mortgages.

Not when the government was guaranteeing them and playing market-maker. Sub-primes would never have taken off like that without the aggressive push by the federal government to promote them.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):

Actually, these people are protesting to private industry. Not government.

Hence the problem - it wasn't private industry that racked up 15 trillion of debt, or nearly $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, which will force us to take draconian measures soon. If we decide to fix that in the next couple of years, it's going to be very painful. If we wait longer, it will end up hurting even worse. That's just the way it is.
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WarRI1
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:33 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
Hence the problem - it wasn't private industry that racked up 15 trillion of debt, or nearly $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, which will force us to take draconian measures soon. If we decide to fix that in the next couple of years, it's going to be very painful. If we wait longer, it will end up hurting even worse. That's just the way it is.

I agree. I also think we have now reached a point where we have deep social divisions in this country. I think this type of anger against the establishment, is a warning of worse to come. Every great social upheaval begins the same way. The rich taking it all. They call themselves the 99%. We all know what that means.

[Edited 2011-10-05 18:05:48]
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Newark727
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):

Hence the problem - it wasn't private industry that racked up 15 trillion of debt, or nearly $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities, which will force us to take draconian measures soon. If we decide to fix that in the next couple of years, it's going to be very painful. If we wait longer, it will end up hurting even worse. That's just the way it is.

The problem seems to be that private industry stands in the way of fixing it. Every regulation or tax intended to either remedy the circumstances that led to economic malady or raise revenue to ease the debt problem has been fought tooth and nail, usually by politicians that wave the pro-business banner. Of course, other factors deserve their share of the blame- making our entitlement programs such sacred cows is an unfortunate outcome of many years of two-party politics.
 
san747
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:58 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):

On the contrary, it is American to work for changes. Some changes, no matter how great they are, are just unachievable. I'd love to see minimum wage at $20 but that is completely unrealistic. I know the validity of the first list is under question, but I still don't think these protesters have much of a clue what's going on. They need to go back, do their homework on what they are protesting and that it is actually realistic then come back as long as it isn't jeopardizing their jobs or school (something millions wish they had)

I absolutely agree. I was trying to make a point at how ridiculous the people that are denouncing the protesters sound. They need to formulate concise goals/demands and work towards those.

Remember- what was posted in the OP was NOT THE ACTUAL LIST.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 22):

Screw em'.... Their idealism is stupid! If you are going to stand for something stand up for something you might actually be able to change.

I remember when I was in school there was so many idiots that were outraged by stuff in the world that they had no power to change and sitting around smoking weed drinking coffee isn't going to change that. Things looks simple when you are young and in school.

Idk. I'm the son of a man who was very actively involved in the social movements of the 60s. I still don't understand your point though. You say the ones who sat around drinking coffee and smoking weed are idiots, but now you say the ones who are trying to make a difference are stupid because you don't agree with their ideas?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:36 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
So, if one way fails, we just give up, it sounds like is your way of thinking.

That is completely 100% exactly the OPPOSITE of what I was thinking. I hit set backs, I overcame them. I could have used my daddy's money to get to be a pilot. He still says he's willing to pay to get all my ratings. I took the hard right and paid for my own college and studied my *** off and got some of the top scores in the nation for the Navy's flight test (really trying not to sound like a bragging douche but I'm trying to drive a point home.) I see way to many kids go to college on their parent's paycheck and play Call of Duty, fail, and say that they are "genetically not smart."

Quoting san747 (Reply 33):
I absolutely agree. I was trying to make a point at how ridiculous the people that are denouncing the protesters sound. They need to formulate concise goals/demands and work towards those.

Remember- what was posted in the OP was NOT THE ACTUAL LIST.

Yeah, that first list kinda changes everything. The second one makes more sense, and I haven't studied it long enough to make an opinion on it. Didn't mean to call you out, despite being different than you politically I more often than not agree with you. I thought you were defending the first list, which, yeah lol you see where I was coming from...
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RayChuang
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:58 am

Given that this crowd is sponsored by a lot of way-Left political organizations, I don't trust them at all.

With personal good reason: I've seen what Communism run amok can do to a country first hand as a small child living in Hong Kong at the height of the Cultural Revolution in next-door China in 1967-1968 (I moved to the USA in 1968). And I've talked with escapees from that political debacle and friends/relatives who were in China at the time of the Cultural Revolution--it was not pleasant, to say the least.
 
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:02 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 35):

Given that this crowd is sponsored by a lot of way-Left political organizations, I don't trust them at all.

To be fair, I don't think this movement is completely left. It's misguided and unorganized, but it's mostly a bunch of ordinary college students trying to fix some problems. I think most would agree that Wall Street isn't perfect. They have the heart but not the brains it seems to have an effective protest...
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Pyrex
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:29 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 35):
With personal good reason: I've seen what Communism run amok can do to a country first hand as a small child living in Hong Kong at the height of the Cultural Revolution in next-door China in 1967-1968 (I moved to the USA in 1968). And I've talked with escapees from that political debacle and friends/relatives who were in China at the time of the Cultural Revolution--it was not pleasant, to say the least.

I always find it funny when I see people who have never lived under communism "debating" (i.e., yelling and insulting) those who have, who tend to be the most anti-communist possible. I suggest anyone leaning to spend some time in Prague, or Budapest, or Warsaw and try to talk anyone above the age of 35 into going back into communism. You will be lucky if you make it back intact!
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san747
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:31 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
I suggest anyone leaning to spend some time in Prague, or Budapest, or Warsaw and try to talk anyone above the age of 35 into going back into communism. You will be lucky if you make it back intact!

Who wants communism? This isn't 1965. Commies aren't going to take over America. There are probably more people still willing to vote for Nader or Perot than Communists in this country.
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seb146
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:42 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
Sub-primes would never have taken off like that without the aggressive push by the federal government to promote them

The banks got all those mortgages together, the good and the bad, mashed them all up, split them all up, sold them off and, by the end, no one could tell what was good and what was bad. The banks did that. Not the Obama administration. Not Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Not Nancy Pelosi. I know how much you love to hate Democrats and want them gone for good, but this was the banks' doing. Not Democrats.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
Should they? It is costly in materials and labor to build a house.

The only job we can not get is either McDonalds or Wal-Mart. There are no factory jobs anymore. They went to China, India, Indonesia, Pakistan where there are little or no environmental regulations and little or no labor laws. Who's fault is that? Obama, I suppose you will say....

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 35):
Given that this crowd is sponsored by a lot of way-Left political organizations, I don't trust them at all.

When people said that about the tea thing, we were screamed and yelled at and called names and told how much we hate America and how much we hate hearing dissenting opinion. So, why do you hate America? Why not leave if you don't like opposition voices?
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Pyrex
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:49 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
The banks got all those mortgages together, the good and the bad, mashed them all up, split them all up, sold them off and, by the end, no one could tell what was good and what was bad.

Oh crap, here we go again... the big, bad mortgage securitization (invented by Fannie and Freddie, by the way). So which one are you in favor of, derivatives or adjustable-rate mortgages? Just want to hear it from a financial expert.
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jcs17
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:50 am

No offense, but fuck them.

Most of those Brooklyn/Hipster losers are living off their parents' trust funds, from guess what? Wall Street.

Those who aren't supported by a trust fund have adequate access to money. Those union workers who went down to support them are making more than a liveable wage by far. They commuted from NJ and Nassau County.

They cheered Susan Sarandon as she flew off to Italy in Delta Business Class.
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fr8mech
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Can the average cashier at Wal-Mart do that?

What does the average cashier contribute to Wal-Mart's bottomline?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
To be fair, I don't think this movement is completely left.

Notice that the unions have joined the protest. Can MoveOn and the others be far behind? I'll assume that Rev. Al and his ilk will soon start making speeches...assuming there's something in it for them.

Quoting san747 (Reply 38):
Commies aren't going to take over America.

No, something more insidious is happening. We are slowly losing our freedoms through legislation and regulation. Remember: the bigger the government, the smaller the person.
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san747
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:20 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):

No, something more insidious is happening. We are slowly losing our freedoms through legislation and regulation. Remember: the bigger the government, the smaller the person.

Judging by the passage of the PATRIOT Act, Prop 8, and various legislation making abortion unreasonably difficult for women to get, I think you're right.
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Newark727
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:21 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
Remember: the bigger the government, the smaller the person.

That's just a platitude. What exactly do you feel is going on?
 
MCOGVADCA
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:08 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
I have a feeling that guy is the minority. He is a conservative he wants Ron Paul. I would vote for him too if I thought he had a shot to win.

Qualifying anyone in this protest in simplistic terminology is insufficient; in order to address the OWS crowd, non-linear thinking is imperative. Rather, think of the political/economic spectrum as circular rather than linear. Employing such a method will demonstrate that, economically, OWS is not that far away from the Tea Party (!) in terms of their ideas on jobs and corporate hegemony! While this young man is a staunch advocate of Ron Paul, many of his ideas are parrotted by the leftists in the OWS camp...namely, abandoning the fed and fiat currencies. Such opinions alienate educated impartial observers, because WE know that the problems inherent in the gold standard are FAR worse than those of fiat currencies. Anyone who has studied the most basic economics knows that this is patently absurd. "Conservative" is an inappropriate label.

On a similar note, I'd love to go around these protests with a camera and inform some of these protestors just how similar their views on corporations are to those of the Tea Party. Perhaps that would change a few minds?
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fr8mech
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:20 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 44):
That's just a platitude. What exactly do you feel is going on?

Every law, every regulation, every governmental edict, every tax, every fee takes away a little bit of our freedom. Some are required and necessary, I understand that, but we live in an age of excessive regulation and government.
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ltbewr
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:48 am

When such 'demands' are presented they can turn off the center and tick off the extremes, making their sounder ideas impossible to get through and some good come from it.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:35 pm

Quoting san747 (Reply 33):
but now you say the ones who are trying to make a difference are stupid because you don't agree with their ideas?

They aren't making a difference. If they made reasonable demands maybe they could.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 35):
Given that this crowd is sponsored by a lot of way-Left political organizations, I don't trust them at all.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
To be fair, I don't think this movement is completely left


I am sure there are a few that aren't lefties, but I would imagine that nearly all of them are. I was listening to Mitch Albom's radio show yesterday and he is a left leaning guy and he even said this was a leftist thing.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
I always find it funny when I see people who have never lived under communism "debating" (i.e., yelling and insulting) those who have, who tend to be the most anti-communist possible. I suggest anyone leaning to spend some time in Prague, or Budapest, or Warsaw and try to talk anyone above the age of 35 into going back into communism. You will be lucky if you make it back intact!


I had this discussion once with a friend of mine who lives in Halle, Germany. He was 32 when the country reunited and was an police officer in Halle (and still is) during the 1980s. His father was also a policeman, as was his grandfather. He told me that there were good things about living in the DDR, but he would never want to go back to that form of government. The conversation came up when we saw some teens wearing t-shirts with Che and and Soviet flag on them. He told me that he finds it funny that kids like that stuff, but never knew what it was like to live in a communist state.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 42):
Can MoveOn and the others be far behind?



I thought they were already involved.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
Not when the government was guaranteeing them and playing market-maker. Sub-primes would never have taken off like that without the aggressive push by the federal government to promote them.



The Subprime mortgage thing has different sides and part of it was greed on the side of the banks and brokers. I saw it, lived it and am still living with the effects of it in a lower middle class suburban Detroit neighborhood. My neighbors had a house that was in VERY poor condition, on the inside. They got a refi and home equity loan that was valued at $155,000. They defaulted owing 150,000. The house sold for $13,000. The appraiser who looked the property said to me " these people sure did a number on this place before they moved out" I said "No, it always looked like this". The guy was amazed that they ever got a loan on the place. These people had no job (for almost as long as I have been alive) and no money. No local bank would ever give the a mortgage and if they did it wouldn't be so over inflated in value. Sure those people should never have taken out a loan they couldn't repay, but no lender should ever have lent the money to begin with. What we had was a case greedy mortgage brokers who wanted their commissions.

I dated a woman who was a mortgage broker, back in 2005, and she was all about making money and she didn't care how she made it. She told me she would work out a deal for anyone and make it sound like they could afford it. She wasn't a wall street hot shot, she was just a greedy mortgage broker.

I have a ARM mortgage and the company that I got it through eventually lost their license in Michigan and lost a lawsuit against the state. They were paying off appraisers to make the property look more valuable than it was in order to get people into loans that they might have never signed off on. That happened to me. I was buying my house from my Landlord and he sold it to me for $90,000. He was selling it to me for what he owed because he wanted out of the house rental business. He had got into it to help out his brother who was having money problems. The mortgage company sent two independent appraisers who valued my house at $115,000. I was shown an ARM that was to adjust in three years. I said that I didn't like the deal. The broker who seemed honest (now I know to never trust them) said that I could refi in three years and lock in a low fixed rate. I would save all kinds of money during that time. Since the house was worth much more than I was paying for it this would be a easy deal in three years. I knew the the appraisers were supposed to be independent so I figured I was good. Turns out that was all a scam to get me to sign the forms. In two years the company got caught doing that and my house was worth only around $95,000. The market started falling and in three years the house was worth only $55,000. There was no way to refi unless I came up the difference in cash. Today the house is lucky to be worth $25,000 and I still owe $78,000.

Fortunately mine ARM wasn't subprime so I don't have a massive interest rate waiting for me. Also right now it is working out great because with the Fed keeping rates low my interest rate is lower than it was when I had that "introductory low rate"

Some people in my neighborhood had rates that climbed to 18% and in one case 20% from initial rates of 6.5%, or lower. These people were affording the loans at the low rate no problem and everything was working just fine. When their rate spiked to 18% they could no longer afford the loan. If the rates had only jumped a few points, or none at all we wouldn't be in this mess. I firmly believe that if all these loans had been a fixed rate the amount of defaults would be few and all this nonsense wouldn't have happened.

Everyone wants to blame the housing crisis on people who bought huge new houses that they couldn't afford. My neighborhood has been hit very hard by this crisis and there are 100s, of homes in just a few square miles that sit empty. Some have become so bad, they have been torn down. They are all 1950s houses in the 700 to 1200 square foot range.

I agree that the government promoted the subprime mess, but it was ordinary workers who got greedy for the commissions that sales brought regardless of the cost.
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WarRI1
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RE: Occupy Wall Street 'Demands'

Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:16 pm

http://www.projo.com/opinion/contrib...er6_10-06-11_EUQNVVI_v6.69d99.html



I think this sums up part of the reasons that we have these protests and why we have the demands of the protestors. This is how corporations and special interests now control our elections. To deny this is simply beyond rational reason. A broken crooked system is what we have. The protests are growing. It is time.
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