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Dreadnought
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Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:01 am

Quote:
The human rights group Amnesty International called on Canadian authorities Wednesday to arrest former President George W. Bush when he attends an economic summit in the province of British Columbia next week.

The group accused Bush of “responsibility for crimes under international law including torture.”
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65810.html#ixzz1ai3ITndh

Bunch of morons.

Kudos to the Canadians for their response:

Quote:
The Canadian government responded to the request with critical words for Amnesty International.

“I cannot comment on individual cases… that said, Amnesty International cherry picks cases to publicize based on ideology. This kind of stunt helps explain why so many respected human rights advocates have abandoned Amnesty International,” Canadian Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Jason Kenney told POLITICO, noting that Amnesty International had never sought a court order to bar Cuban dictator Fidel Castro or Tongolese dicator Gnassingbé Eyadema from Canada.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Bunch of morons.

Don't speak to soon Dreadnaught.

GWBush has already had to cancel a planed visit to Switzerland earlier on this year because of possible arrest warrants being executed against him in the Mountainous tax haven. Groups, like Human Rights, including your own, the New York-based Human Rights Watch, has said this s down to the fact that there are growing moves worldwide, to have GWB arrested for torture.

See full article

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...bush-torture-idUSTRE7141CU20110205

Another example is the canceled visit by the Israeli opposition Ms Tzipi Livni to Britain earlier on this year too. That took the British Government to extremes, declaring that "she was on a special mission" and had been given "Special Mission" immunity.

See full article below

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...zipi-livni-war-crime-arrest-threat

So, as you see, its not only GWB looking over his back all the time, but "others" are also doing just the same

[Edited 2011-10-13 18:47:43]
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Dreadnought
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:51 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 1):
Don't speak to soon Dreadnaught.

GWBush has already had to cancel a planed visit to Switzerland earlier on this year because of possible arrest warrants being executed against him in the Mountainous tax haven. Groups, like Human Rights, including your own, the New York-based Human Rights Watch, has said this s down to the fact that there are growing moves to have GWB arrested for torture.

Morons - all of them. Bush as Chief Executive asked for and received legal opinions from the proper authorities before ordering the waterboarding of three asshats.

By your standards, Amnesty and other groups should soon be forthcoming with demands for the arrest of Obama, for the murder without trial of a US citizen (Al-Awlaki). Somehow I doubt that will happen.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:06 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Bush as Chief Executive asked for and received legal opinions from the proper authorities before ordering the waterboarding of three asshats.

Still, I guess that's why they say its always good to get a second opinion, especially when the "opinions" which were being sought, had never been sought before, and therefore could be open to many interpretations by different jurisdictions, all over the world ?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
By your standards,

They are not my standards.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Amnesty and other groups should soon be forthcoming with demands for the arrest of Obama, for the murder without trial of a US citizen (Al-Awlaki). Somehow I doubt that will happen.

Well Dreadnought, as I said above, GWB is not the only one looking over shoulder, others are doing it too, or soon will be.

The world is a changing place, people expectations are also changing. What was considered acceptable years ago may no longer be. I can only see more of this on the horizon.
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Pyrex
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:57 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
The world is a changing place, people expectations are also changing. What was considered acceptable years ago may no longer be. I can only see more of this on the horizon.

Oh, you mean like when they asked for an arrest warrant for Osama Bin Laden for killing hundreds of thousands of people? Oh, somehow I missed that...
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:03 am

I'm no fan of these 'human rights' organizations but I fully support throwing George W Bush behind bars.
His war in Iraq was unjust, destabilized the region, killed thousands of people including our troops and our allies troops. He also damaged the US standing worldwide. I would not be sad to see Dubya behind bars.
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seb146
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:54 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Bush as Chief Executive asked for and received legal opinions from the proper authorities before ordering the waterboarding of three asshats.

In other words: He got lawyers to find a way to tell the American people that torture is acceptable. Black sites and fear and terror and smoking gun might be a mushroom cloud...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Amnesty and other groups should soon be forthcoming with demands for the arrest of Obama, for the murder without trial of a US citizen (Al-Awlaki).

Except al-Awlaki was the defacto head of a terrorist organization.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:03 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Oh, you mean like when they asked for an arrest warrant for Osama Bin Laden for killing hundreds of thousands of people? Oh, somehow I missed that...

Hey, not my call.

If you think Amensity should have gone down that path, then you should've suggested it to them.

That was your missed opportunity, nothing else.

Anyway, as we all know.... that book is finished.
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baroque
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:04 am

[quote=seb146,reply=6]Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn

That just about sums it up. Thanks Seb!
 
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:18 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
from the proper authorities

What proper authorities would that be? Guantanamo Bay on its own could and should lead to prosecution in the International Criminal Court.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Bunch of morons.

Really? Just because they are campaigning that your former President is held accountable for human rights abuses? I suppose you would also call Amnesty International morons for seeking an end to human rights abuses in Iran, China and many other nations?

At the end of the day they only want Dubya to face justice, if he is innocent there should be no fear of any trial outcome.
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Springbok747
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:07 am

Meh..Dubya is never going to leave the US again..so this is a non-issue.

BTW..these morons calling for his arrest should also make sure Mugabe, Castro, Chavez, I-want-a-Jihad and all the other nutjobs "face justice" as well. Like that will ever happen  
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dxing
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:49 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
In other words: He got lawyers to find a way to tell the American people that torture is acceptable

Since some of our service people were/are waterboarded in training to deal with capture exactly how is it "torture"? Did anyone lose a limb? Scarred for life? People in the Supermax prison in Colorado kept in solitary confinement for years on end are more at risk of being tortured mentally for life than these three were.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Except al-Awlaki was the defacto head of a terrorist organization.

So are Mafia dons, so should we just execute them on sight as well?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
BTW..these morons calling for his arrest should also make sure Mugabe, Castro, Chavez, I-want-a-Jihad and all the other nutjobs "face justice" as well. Like that will ever happen

Well said. Until they hand out their indictments with an even hand then they have no credibility.
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:22 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Oh, you mean like when they asked for an arrest warrant for Osama Bin Laden for killing hundreds of thousands of people? Oh, somehow I missed that...

You think that would have been necessary? Osama bin Laden would have freely roamed the streets of Canada and it would have taken amnesty internation to ask for a warrant?

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):

BTW..these morons calling for his arrest should also make sure Mugabe, Castro, Chavez, I-want-a-Jihad and all the other nutjobs "face justice" as well. Like that will ever happen

Are you suggesting that amnesty international ignores the people you mentioned? If so, that's a pretty ridiculous charge. Just google it, you will find plenty of material. Also, AI doesn't "make sure" these people face justice, that's not in their power. They can only draw attention to human rights issues. I don't like their self-righteousness and their broad brush, but they're hardly apologetic of the likes of Mugabe or Castro (or anyone in power really).
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:35 pm

I would certainly support the arrest of many hundreds of Bush officials including GWB. The case seems pretty foolproof at this point. Iraq, QED. I knew it then and it's still true today. Iraqis had a skin color and religion that resembled the 9/11 attackers. Therefore we incinerated 100,000s of people in Iraq. That was illegal.
 
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:10 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Oh, you mean like when they asked for an arrest warrant for Osama Bin Laden for killing hundreds of thousands of people?

Oh my God ...

Quoting Rara (Reply 12):
You think that would have been necessary? Osama bin Laden would have freely roamed the streets of Canada and it would have taken amnesty internation to ask for a warrant?

Bingo.
Besides, human rights are the individual's rights and freedoms when facing the authority of state. OBL has never been an authority of state for crying out loud!
Human rights are there to limit the power of state officials, not the power of terrorists. For the latter group you have prosecutors, police and maybe the military. It really is too funny when people boldly talk about rights they don't seem to have the faintest idea about.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Bunch of morons.

The 'bunch of morons' demand that Canada takes some contracts seriously. They would be morons *if* they would seriously assume Canada is really going to interrogate Bush "only" because conditions to do so are indeed fulfilled.
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:48 pm

I hope that one day, all of you calling Amnesty morons actually need the help of a human rights organization. We'll see who the morons are at that point...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Morons - all of them.

 
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Bush as Chief Executive asked for and received legal opinions from the proper authorities before ordering the waterboarding of three asshats.

Funny. More often than not, you're ripping lawyers a new one on this site. However, when they suggest something of which you approve, you're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. That said, you can find "experts" to confirm any crazy belief out there. The fact of the matter is that the Bush administration authorized the use of torture, and the US lost a hell of a lot of credibility in the process. Your comments suggest that it's OK for a country that always holds itself out as a "beacon" of human rights to use techniques that are barbaric and third world. Sad.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
By your standards, Amnesty and other groups should soon be forthcoming with demands for the arrest of Obama, for the murder without trial of a US citizen (Al-Awlaki). Somehow I doubt that will happen.

Yes, they should. What he did was unconstitutional.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Oh, you mean like when they asked for an arrest warrant for Osama Bin Laden for killing hundreds of thousands of people? Oh, somehow I missed that...

 
Quoting EDICHC (Reply 9):
Really? Just because they are campaigning that your former President is held accountable for human rights abuses? I suppose you would also call Amnesty International morons for seeking an end to human rights abuses in Iran, China and many other nations?

That doesn't matter to most people in this thread. They dared to suggest that an American committed human rights abuses. That was their cardinal sin.

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
BTW..these morons calling for his arrest should also make sure Mugabe, Castro, Chavez, I-want-a-Jihad and all the other nutjobs "face justice" as well. Like that will ever happen
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/venezuela/report-2011
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/zimbabwe/report-2011
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba/report-2011

Yeah looks like they're just letting Venezuela, Zimbabwe, and Cuba off the hook.   You do realize that there is a difference between committing crimes against your own citizens, and committing crimes against citizens of another country do you not? You also realize that there is a difference between certain acts that actually call for international arrest warrants, and acts that do not right?

Quoting dxing (Reply 11):
Since some of our service people were/are waterboarded in training to deal with capture exactly how is it "torture"? Did anyone lose a limb? Scarred for life?

Why don't you volunteer to be waterboarded, and then tell us whether it's torture? Since you're so certain that it's not, you'd be willing to do it right?

Quoting Rara (Reply 12):
Are you suggesting that amnesty international ignores the people you mentioned? If so, that's a pretty ridiculous charge.

To say the least.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 14):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Oh, you mean like when they asked for an arrest warrant for Osama Bin Laden for killing hundreds of thousands of people?

Oh my God ...

Yeah that has to be one of the more ridiculous things I've read in a while.
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seb146
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:56 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 15):
I hope that one day, all of you calling Amnesty morons actually need the help of a human rights organization. We'll see who the morons are at that point...

The same way they treat ACLU. They are a bunch of communitst terrorists who hate America. Excpet when ACLU is standing up for the rights of the right-wing.

Quoting dxing (Reply 11):
Since some of our service people were/are waterboarded in training to deal with capture exactly how is it "torture"?

Some of them that were tortured called it torture. Let AI "detain" Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rove, Rumsfeld, hold them in solitary cells for years without trials and use "enhanced interrogation" on them. Let's just see how long it takes before they sing.
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NoUFO
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:20 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
By your standards, Amnesty and other groups should soon be forthcoming with demands for the arrest of Obama, for the murder without trial of a US citizen (Al-Awlaki). Somehow I doubt that will happen.

Well, according to amnesty international, the killing of al-Awlaki was an extrajudicial kiling - unless al-Awlaki was in an ongoing armed conflict, which is difficult to determine:

Quote:
In early 2010, the US government announced a
US$155.3 million security assistance package for Yemen, with US$34.5 million earmarked
for Yemen’s Special Operations Forces to carry out counter-terrorism operations.10 However,
there was little or no evidence of any concern about the impact such security operations can
be expected to have on human rights. This was highlighted in April 2010 when the US
government authorized the killing of al-Qa’ida suspect Anwar al-Awlaki, a US citizen said to
be hiding in Yemen, saying that he posed a direct threat to the USA.11 As will be explained in
greater detail later, targeted killings outside the context of a specific and ongoing armed
conflict constitute extrajudicial executions.12
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/as...b3-bcf8a48fc827/mde310102010en.pdf (page 6)

Amnesty does not care who is the incumbent but what he or she does.
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NoUFO
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:41 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
Quoting dxing (Reply 11):
Since some of our service people were/are waterboarded in training to deal with capture exactly how is it "torture"?

Some of them that were tortured called it torture. Let AI "detain" Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rove, Rumsfeld, hold them in solitary cells for years without trials and use "enhanced interrogation" on them. Let's just see how long it takes before they sing.

"Enhanced interrogation" is the key here. While the definition of the term torture is not clear, rules outline that torture is

Quote:
any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
http://www.un.org/millennium/law/iv-9.htm

By this definition, 'waterboarding' service men to show them "how a 'waterboard' feels like" would not constitute as torture. Obtaining information from prisoners by 'waterboarding' them is.
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dxing
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):

Some of them that were tortured called it torture

And they also call killing non-believers something their God calls upon them to do. Are they also to be believed when they do that? Go to any jail in the world and ask "who here is innocent?", what sort of show of hands do you think you'll get? Ask, "who here thinks that they are being mistreated?", again what sort of show of hands do you think you'll get? Stop being or acting so naive for once.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:13 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
"Enhanced interrogation" is the key here. While the definition of the term torture is not clear, rules outline that torture is

Quote:
any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions.
http://www.un.org/millennium/law/iv-9.htm

That definition is far too broad. Cops who arrest a drug dealer, and threaten him with jail time unless he provides evidence which would allow the arrest of a bigger drug kingpin, would be guilty of torture by this definition. Hell, almost every marital spat could result in the woman (usually) being guilty of torture.
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dxing
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:19 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
Obtaining information from prisoners by 'waterboarding' them is.

Except that the United States accepted the treaty with reservation.

http://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDet...TY&mtdsg_no=IV-9&chapter=4&lang=en

United States of America 23

United States of America23

Upon signature :

Declaration:
"The Government of the United States of America reserves the right to communicate, upon ratification, such reservations, interpretive understandings, or declarations as are deemed necessary."

Upon ratification :

Reservations:

"I. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following reservations:
(1) That the United States considers itself bound by the obligation under article 16 to prevent 'cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment', only insofar as the term 'cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment' means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
(2) That pursuant to article 30 (2) the United States declares that it does not consider itself bound by Article 30 (1), but reserves the right specifically to agree to follow this or any other procedure for arbitration in a particular case.

II. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following understandings, which shall apply to the obligations of the United States under this Convention:
(1) (a) That with reference to article 1, the United States understands that, in order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.


Since the persons in question were only waterboarded a limited amount of times and found out after the first session that providing information requested resulted in the end of the waterboarding, and were subsequently able to speak for themselves in a court, "prolonged" mental mental harm can be ruled out.

There are other reservations to the treaty as well, I only copied the pertinent one. Many countries exempted themselves from extradition of their citizens to stand trial in an international court. Others exempted themselves from the UN's self imposed enforcement role.
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L-188
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:44 pm

My compliments to the Canadian government calling a spade a spade

And much more politely than I would.
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NoUFO
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:21 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Cops who arrest a drug dealer, and threaten him with jail time unless he provides evidence which would allow the arrest of a bigger drug kingpin, would be guilty of torture by this definition.

Not quite unless of course you confuse the threat of serving time in jail with "severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental".

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):
Except that the United States accepted the treaty with reservation.

Yes I know, but I do not know enough about the background and the respective Amendments to comment on your objection.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
My compliments to the Canadian government calling a spade a spade

Well,let's see:

Quoting Jason Kenney (Thread starter):
Amnesty International cherry picks cases to publicize based on ideology.

Which ideology?

Quoting Jason Kenney (Thread starter):
This kind of stunt helps explain why so many respected human rights advocates have abandoned Amnesty International

Which 'respected human rights advocates'?

Quoting Jason Kenney (Thread starter):
Amnesty International had never sought a court order to bar Cuban dictator Fidel Castro or Tongolese dicator Gnassingbé Eyadema from Canada

Not from Canada. Of course neither Human Rights Watch nor ai would mind had Canada brought to justice Fidel Castro or Eyadema (who died in 2005, btw). All Mr. Kenney says is that Canada consequently *never* enforces said human rights declaration which Canada has signed. I guess this could go as ideology, too.
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:51 pm

Whatever. Slobodan Milosevich had to stand trial for what he did, many Nazis did aswell. In an ideal world, so should GWB.
GWB's crimes are far worse than Milosevich's and coming close to that of the Nazis that hung for their deeds.
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BMI727
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:14 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Morons - all of them.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
By your standards, Amnesty and other groups should soon be forthcoming with demands for the arrest of Obama, for the murder without trial of a US citizen (Al-Awlaki). Somehow I doubt that will happen

Of course not. Obama helped bring about the end of one of America's worst enemies, and for that he should be applauded.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
What was considered acceptable years ago may no longer be.

Killing terrorists is no longer acceptable? Has the entire world gone stupid?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 15):
I hope that one day, all of you calling Amnesty morons actually need the help of a human rights organization.

I'm not a terrorist, so I don't think that will be necessary.
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NoUFO
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:14 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 24):
GWB's crimes are far worse than Milosevich's and coming close to that of the Nazis that hung for their deeds.

I would like to stress that this is entirely your opinion, and that I have no idea how you could possibly substantiate it.
Not that I want you to try doing so.
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:15 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Bunch of morons.

Exactly what I thought.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 24):
GWB's crimes are far worse than Milosevich's and coming close to that of the Nazis that hung for their deeds.

This is offcially the worst statment I have ever seen in Anet.
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:06 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 15):
I hope that one day, all of you calling Amnesty morons actually need the help of a human rights organization.

Why?

1. I am not a terrorist
2. I have no plans to go "hiking" in a war zone  
3. I don't live in a country run by any of the idiots I mentioned above
4. I have no plans to visit any of these countries either

Quoting OA412 (Reply 15):
Yeah looks like they're just letting Venezuela, Zimbabwe, and Cuba off the hook. You do realize that there is a difference between committing crimes against your own citizens, and committing crimes against citizens of another country do you not? You also realize that there is a difference between certain acts that actually call for international arrest warrants, and acts that do not right?

Just reporting about the situation in these countries (especially Zimbabwe) doesn't solve the situation. That's the job of the media..not AI.
And is it alright to commit crimes against your own citizens now?  
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seb146
Posts: 13751
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:27 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 19):
And they also call killing non-believers something their God calls upon them to do.

WHAT??? Go back and read the exchange. You are mistaking our service men and women for terrorists.

Just so we are clear: Terrorism had nothing at all to do with religion of any kind and religion of any kind has nothing to do with terrorism. People like al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden and al-Alawiki are terrorists who happen to practice Islam. Islam and terrorism ARE NOT THE SAME.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
Enhanced interrogation" is the key here. While the definition of the term torture is not clear, rules outline that torture is

Right. So, if I use "enhanced interrogation" and rip out fingernails one by one, I am safe from punishment. But, if I use "torture" and rip out fingernails one by one, I can be punished.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
'waterboarding' service men to show them "how a 'waterboard' feels like" would not constitute as torture. Obtaining information from prisoners by 'waterboarding' them is.

Right. So, waterboarding a prisoner is torture. But, change it from "torture" to "enhanced interrogation" and there is no case.
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Superfly
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:34 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 24):
Whatever. Slobodan Milosevich had to stand trial for what he did, many Nazis did aswell. In an ideal world, so should GWB.
GWB's crimes are far worse than Milosevich's and coming close to that of the Nazis that hung for their deeds.

  
Amen Tu204! ! !

Dubya's crimes was far greater than Slobodan Milosevich's.
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JakeOrion
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:44 pm

Quoting superfly (Reply 30):
Dubya's crimes was far greater than Slobodan Milosevich's.

I don't ever recall GWB committing genocide or murdering political opponents.

Oh, and we might as well include Obama in that list, since, hey, he's still in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oh, he also started Libya too.

See how ridiculous that sounds? The Bush era is over, let it go.

[Edited 2011-10-14 13:45:40]
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
Superfly
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:50 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 31):
Oh, and we might as well include Obama in that list, since, hey, he's still in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oh, he also started Libya too.

  
I agree!
I hate Obama as much as I hate Dubya.
Throw them both in the sewer!
Bring back the Concorde
 
JakeOrion
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:57 pm

Quoting superfly (Reply 32):
Throw them both in the sewer!

I'll agree to that.

However, holding them for war crimes is a bit...sketchy at best. If there was evidence to prove otherwise, I'm sure the UN (despite what you may think of that organization) would have begun investigations or hearings by now.

The movement I have seen so far are from organizations with extremely biased views.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
PSA53
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:58 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):

BTW..these morons calling for his arrest should also make sure Mugabe, Castro, Chavez, I-want-a-Jihad and all the other nutjobs "face justice" as well. Like that will ever happe

Sounds suspect to me.Ultra liberals at the helm at Amnesty?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
I'm no fan of these 'human rights' organizations but I fully support throwing George W Bush behind bars.
His war in Iraq was unjus

I agree,too.I wouldn't have gone in.But also,which people forget, the Democrats approved it at first.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
destabilized the region, killed thousands of peopl

After the initial offense, Bush won Iraq."Mission Accomplished." And it was.He had actually gave orders all troops to come home.What he underestimated was the religious divisions that would start knocking each other off in a civil war and what tore the nation apart.For that,I don't totally blame Bush.But let's not forget Obama has picked up all of Bush's polices. Period! We got about 50k troops still in Iraq.Let AI go after Obama.

If you want a POTUS accountable,then let's talk LBJ and Vietnam.

This topic has come up many times before where a POTUS actions are questioned.Rather you like it or not,POTUS or a head of state for that matter,have a licensed to kill.Comes with the job!

AI request is crap.
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Superfly
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 33):
However, holding them for war crimes is a bit...sketchy at best. If there was evidence to prove otherwise,

It's very obvious. There were several threads about that a few months ago and all have been locked or deleted. Much information online about it.

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 33):
I'm sure the UN (despite what you may think of that organization) would have begun investigations or hearings by now.

They would if they could but they wont bite the hand that feeds them.
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dxing
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:23 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Quoting dxing (Reply 19):
And they also call killing non-believers something their God calls upon them to do.

WHAT??? Go back and read the exchange. You are mistaking our service men and women for terrorists.

Provide the quote or link where one of our service people who was waterboarded during his or her training has said that then. Even it will be there opinion and nothing more. There comments can probably be washed by some other service person having undergone the same training saying that it isn't. Sorry, after all the misstatements you've made on this forum, your credibility is not good enough to stand on its own.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Just so we are clear: Terrorism had nothing at all to do with religion of any kind and religion of any kind has nothing to do with terrorism. Islam and terrorism ARE NOT THE SAME

The terrorists are claiming to be acting in accordance with Islam. But I'll remember you said that next time you try and paint all Christians as the same as ultraconservative ones.

[Edited 2011-10-14 15:12:53]
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Pyrex
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
Therefore we incinerated 100,000s of people in Iraq.

What? You must be joking... I take you in better consideration than that to mistake you for the worst type of person there is, a moral relativist. Hundreds of thousands of people were killed in Iraq BY IRAQIS, Sure, there were unfortunate civilian casualties of the actions of U.S. troops (probably much less than any other conflict in human history) but the majority of civilian deaths that happened in Iraq were related to deliberate terrorist actions targeted against civilians that were 100% the responsibility of the ones who committed them. Trying to justify deliberate attacks against civilians with George Bush is like trying to justify the massacre of farm-workers and casino-goers in Mexico with prohibition of recreational chemicals in the U.S., or criminality with economic conditions - moral relativism pure and simple, the worst sin of all.
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n229nw
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:04 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
Oh, you mean like when they asked for an arrest warrant for Osama Bin Laden for killing hundreds of thousands of people? Oh, somehow I missed that...
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 10):
BTW..these morons calling for his arrest should also make sure Mugabe, Castro, Chavez, I-want-a-Jihad and all the other nutjobs "face justice" as well. Like that will ever happen


As many people have pointed out, they don't let those people off the hook. They are quite even-handed and pretty consistent in their condemnations.

They are not morons. Just the opposite.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 24):
GWB's crimes are far worse than Milosevich's and coming close to that of the Nazis that hung for their deeds.

  

You know, I want GWB held responsible for his actions, but that is an utterly and completely ridiculous statement. Possibly in the top 10 I've seen on A.net...

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
Therefore we incinerated 100,000s of people in Iraq.

That's also a ridiculous statement. The Bush administration is indirectly responsible for many of those deaths, because we destabilized the region and stoked the sectarian violence. But we didn't "incinerate" 100,000s of people...

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 31):
Oh, and we might as well include Obama in that list, since, hey, he's still in Iraq and Afghanistan. Oh, he also started Libya too.

Do you not see a difference between starting a war on false pretenses (and against international law), and being stuck in a war that other people started? And as for Libya, while it was probably a big mistake, it was an intervention in an already existent conflict.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 34):
What he underestimated was the religious divisions that would start knocking each other off in a civil war and what tore the nation apart.For that,I don't totally blame Bush

How so? Anyone with two brain cells, or even one working one, who studied the region, explained that exactly that would happen if we invaded Iraq. That the Bush administration instead ignored all historians and experts on the region ("intellectual elitists" in their eyes?), and strong-armed all the intelligence agencies in order to follow the delusional "strategies" of a bunch of immoral neo-con nutters is absolutely their fault. Absolutely.

Now, personally, I think Cheney and Rumsfeld are far worse than GWB himself. But the buck did stop at his desk.

[Edited 2011-10-14 20:25:39]
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NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:57 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
I'm no fan of these 'human rights' organizations but I fully support throwing George W Bush behind bars.

I still think Bush was a puppet - he was pressured by two bigger evil men - Darth Cheney and Karl Rove - Rove and Cheney should not only be put behind bars but hung for treason.

Quoting superfly (Reply 32):
I agree!
I hate Obama as much as I hate Dubya.
Throw them both in the sewer!

Hear Hear

Quoting n229nw (Reply 38):
You know, I want GWB held responsible for his actions, but that is an utterly and completely ridiculous statement. Possibly in the top 10 I've seen on A.net...

Yeah ummm that might be comparing apples to oranges. As much as I hate Bush, he didn't order any genocide. TU204 needs to look at some of his past history of Russian former leaders. Don't forget - Russia also invaded Afghanistan once.

Maybe Putin should be tried for his war crimes too in Chechnya and Georgia.
 
baroque
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:32 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 18):
Obtaining information from prisoners by 'waterboarding' them is.

And no doubt AI has been reading the Reith lectures
2011 Reith Lectures - Former MI5 Dir-gen (by Baroque Oct 14 2011 in Non Aviation)
which rather suggests MI6 personnel might also be on their list.

Quoting dxing (Reply 21):
Since the persons in question were only waterboarded a limited amount of times and found out after the first session that providing information requested resulted in the end of the waterboarding,

Here you are from Fox News itself.
Despite Reports, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Was Not Waterboarded 183 Times

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...-waterboarded-times/#ixzz1apT7GMo2
The New York Times reported last week that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the Sept. 11 terror attacks, was waterboarded 183 times in one month by CIA interrogators. The "183 times" was widely circulated by news outlets throughout the world.

It was shocking. And it was highly misleading. The number is a vast inflation, according to information from a U.S. official and the testimony of the terrorists themselves.

A U.S. official with knowledge of the interrogation program told FOX News that the much-cited figure represents the number of times water was poured onto Mohammed's face -- not the number of times the CIA applied the simulated-drowning technique on the terror suspect. According to a 2007 Red Cross report, he was subjected a total of "five sessions of ill-treatment."

"The water was poured 183 times -- there were 183 pours," the official explained, adding that "each pour was a matter of seconds."

The Times and dozens of other outlets wrote that the CIA also waterboarded senior Al Qaeda member Abu Zubaydah 83 times, but Zubayda himself, a close associate of Usama bin Laden, told the Red Cross he was waterboarded no more than 10 times.

Classic hair splitting. 183 pours, 183 waterboardings. Come on over, I have bucket ready.

CSM is hardly a sensationalist production and it had:
The ongoing debate over the ethics and usefulness of interrogation techniques such as waterboarding received new fuel on Sunday night, with a New York Times report that two Al Qaeda suspects were subject to the method, which simulates drowning, a combined 266 times.

That number is higher than previously reported, and will no doubt cast a long shadow over President Obama's first scheduled visit to CIA headquarters today, where he will publicly address employees.

The New York Times reports that, according to a recently released May 2005 interrogation memo, Al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah was subjected to waterboarding 83 times in August 2002.

Khalid Sheikh Mohamed, who has confessed to planning the September 11, 2001, attacks as well as personally beheading Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, was subjected to waterboarding 183 times in March 2003.


Anyone silly enough to believe any of these confessions?

[Edited 2011-10-14 23:33:11]
 
tu204
Posts: 1409
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:36 am

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 31):
I don't ever recall GWB committing genocide or murdering political opponents.

Well, came pretty close to genocide. Indirect, but his actions led to it in Iraq. As some other members stated, his ILLEGAL actions (invasion of a sovreign state) destabilised the country to the point that awoke sectarian violence. Yes, the U.S. troops have killed a small percentage of total civilian casualties (which in itself is pretty bad if you think about it), but the U.S. administration must take the blame for destabilising the country and in effect, those dead Iraqis.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 39):
Don't forget - Russia also invaded Afghanistan once.

Read up on history, the legitimate government of Afghanistan requested, numerous times, the assistance of the Soviet Armed Forces in helping fight the Islamic Radicals (later to be known as the Taliban). Lets not get into who helped who after and how that one came around like a boomerang.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 38):
Now, personally, I think Cheney and Rumsfeld are far worse than GWB himself. But the buck did stop at his desk.

Totally agree. Cheney and Rumsfeld are worse. Bush was a puppet. When I see Cheney or Rumsfeld I just see pure evil.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
dxing
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:49 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
As some other members stated, his ILLEGAL actions (invasion of a sovreign state)

Iraq was a country in violation of numerous UN resolutions. BTW, 46 members are guilty of "illegal" action if what you say is even remotely true.
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Superfly
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:53 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
Read up on history, the legitimate government of Afghanistan requested, numerous times, the assistance of the Soviet Armed Forces in helping fight the Islamic Radicals (later to be known as the Taliban). Lets not get into who helped who after and how that one came around like a boomerang.

  
Yet so many conservatives want to put that actor President (Reagan) on a pedestal.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 41):
As some other members stated, his ILLEGAL actions (invasion of a sovreign state) destabilised the country to the point that awoke sectarian violence.

  
...and Obama did the same to Libya.
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Stealthz
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:09 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
...and Obama did the same to Libya.

Now you are just being silly.. how can you justify that Obama led the Libya adventure?
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seb146
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:16 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 36):
Provide the quote or link where one of our service people who was waterboarded during his or her training has said that then.

This:

Quoting dxing (Reply 19):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):

Some of them that were tortured called it torture

And they also call killing non-believers something their God calls upon them to do.

came after:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
Quoting dxing (Reply 11):
Since some of our service people were/are waterboarded in training to deal with capture exactly how is it "torture"?

Some of them that were tortured called it torture.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
and Obama did the same to Libya.

Invaded based on lies?
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tu204
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:23 pm

Quoting dxing (Reply 42):
Iraq was a country in violation of numerous UN resolutions. BTW, 46 members are guilty of "illegal" action if what you say is even remotely true.

Yeah, why not. But the driving force was the U.S. administration.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 39):
Maybe Putin should be tried for his war crimes too in Chechnya and Georgia.

Regarding Chechnya - that would be Yeltsin that is guilty of crimes against humanity (First Chechen War, started by Russia). Putin involved Russia in the Second Chechen War in response to Islamic Radicals wanting to set up a "Great Emirate of the Caucus". Terrorists invaded bordering parts of Dagestan, we responded by taking them out. We were attacked, we responded.
In regards to Georgia - are you freaking serious? Its Sakashvilli that should stand trial for attempted genocide of the Ossetians! He started it, we stopped it. Putin (actually Medvedev) should receive a freaking medal for PREVENTING genocide!

I see that my earlier statement of "The Bush administration's crimes come close to that of the Nazis" was misunderstood. I understand that I didn't word that properly. I did not mean to compare the Bush administration's crimes to the Holocaust Nazis but mainly to that of Reichminister of Foreign Affairs Joachim von Ribbentrop, who was executed for his crimes. His charges:
Crimes against peace.
Deliberately planning a war of aggression.
Crimes against humanity.

These transfer easily to the Bush administration except maybe the last charge.

The Bush administration clearly commited crimes against peace and is guilty of planning a war of aggression. Under false pretences, kind of like the start of the Polish campaign by Nazi Germany.
Unfortunately, none of them will stand trial, but I am just showing that there are extreme parallels that can be drawn.
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Superfly
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:27 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 44):
Now you are just being silly.. how can you justify that Obama led the Libya adventure?

Doesn't matter who "led" the invasion.



Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
Invaded based on lies?

Its still and invasion and he did it without Congressional approval and he went against yet another campaign promise. Remember his anti-war stance in 2008 was part of his "hope & change" message.
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Stealthz
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 47):
Doesn't matter who "led" the invasion.

And I actually agree there.. not sure what led much of the world(well NATO anyway) to intervene in a domestic squabble when they ignored the rest of the "Arab Spring"... oh yes I do , the black sludgy stuff we run our economies on!!
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Superfly
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RE: Amnesty International Seeks Arrest Of GW Bush

Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 48):
(well NATO anyway)

...and NATO is mostly the United States.
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