comorin
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I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:52 pm

I moseyed over to Zanetti Park today at lunchtime and spent a few minutes at Occupy Wall Street. Some impressions:

1. Good vibe. The cops were smiling, the protesters were enthused and everyone seemed to be having a chill time.

2. Simple message: Rich getting richer at the expense of the working class. Lots of boards and banners. Young people seem really concerned that they will not have job opportunities once they leave college.

3. Age - Biggest surprise! I thought it'd be full of younger kids, but a lot of older people have joined in so the tone is more serious. I saw teachers, union members, and health care workers there. There was an impromptu clinic in the park too.

4. Size - Hey , this is a relatively small and contained demonstration (actually a live-in), unlike the way it has been portrayed in the media.

It felt great to see democracy in action, especially with non-violent and thoughtful protest.   
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:02 pm

I like that kind of protest, where everything is civilized and orderly, where all ages are active in it, and (I assume) different ideologies are also there.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:06 pm

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
It felt great to see democracy in action, especially with non-violent and thoughtful protest.

It's not democracy. It's a bunch of people who can't live off the system and people who don't get to do what they want and make tons of money for it.

Face it, if these people put half the effort into finding a job and working that they've put into their "protests", they would be productive people.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Zentraedi
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:12 pm

Well great, but it makes no sense.

These people need to turn up at the voting booths and attack their politicians. These banks and corporations will only get away with as much as the government lets them.

I do work at a large investment bank and people ARE genuinely afraid of government audits/crack downs.
 
comorin
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:51 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
t's not democracy. It's a bunch of people who can't live off the system and people who don't get to do what they want and make tons of money for it.

Face it, if these people put half the effort into finding a job and working that they've put into their "protests", they would be productive people.

Keep an open mind, my friend. The times are a-changin'...

...don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand...

attrib: Bob Dylan


Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 3):
These people need to turn up at the voting booths and attack their politicians. These banks and corporations will only get away with as much as the government lets them.

These people are trying to get a grassroots movement rolling so that they are a political force big enough for change. Very similar to what the Tea Party is/was trying to do.

There is another more issue-oriented thread going on so I don't want to intrude.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:51 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
Face it, if these people put half the effort into finding a job and working that they've put into their "protests", they would be productive people.

What makes you so sure that some of these people have not tried looking for a job? To outright assume that is also not fair.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:49 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 5):
What makes you so sure that some of these people have not tried looking for a job? To outright assume that is also not fair.

Fair enough, but every day they spend living in the "protest" (I put that in quotes, because its really just a bunch of people whining, rather than trying to improve themselves), they aren't making any progress towards a job.

The real issue here is the belief that nearly everyone needs to go to college. Getting a degree in something like women's studies or English literature is the problem. Yes, there are jobs in those fields, but they are very limited. If people would suck it up and get educated where the demand is, there wouldn't be nearly as many issues. But the nanny state we live in has coddled people into believing they can do what they want and eat their proverbial cake too.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Mir
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:20 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 6):
every day they spend living in the "protest" (I put that in quotes, because its really just a bunch of people whining, rather than trying to improve themselves)

Isn't any protest ultimately a bunch of people complaining?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:32 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Isn't any protest ultimately a bunch of people complaining?

Yes, but they usually have an organized path to an outcome the problem they see. These people are all wanting different things, bring lots of problems to the table with absolutely no solutions.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
dragon-wings
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:57 pm

Will these protests do anything?? They been there for a month and Wall Street" seems to be just ignoring them. I think they are going about it all wrong. They have demands right? But who do they tell their demands to? Wall Street is not just one company. It's hunders of companies and banks.

And here is another thought. When they are protesting during the day what happens to the protestors jobs? Do they not have jobs? Did they ask their boss for the day off so they could go protest about not having enough money as the rich?
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
windy95
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:01 am

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
It felt great to see democracy in action, especially with non-violent and thoughtful protest

There has been plenty of arrest in this protest acorss the nations. Thoughtful in what way?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
and (I assume) different ideologies are also there.

Yes communism, socilaism and progressivism.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
Face it, if these people put half the effort into finding a job and working that they've put into their "protests", they would be productive people

Correct.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 8):
These people are all wanting different things, bring lots of problems to the table with absolutely no solutions.

No solutions except to soak successful people. Oh I mean "rich" people.
 
Mir
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 9):
Did they ask their boss for the day off so they could go protest about not having enough money as the rich?

You really think that's what they're protesting?

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 8):
These people are all wanting different things, bring lots of problems to the table with absolutely no solutions.

Sounds just like the Tea Party in its early days. If the Occupy Wall Street people can get some political action going and push an agenda of ethical business practices, an end to too-big-to-fail, and an end to big business and government being in bed with each other, then they'll get somewhere. If they don't, then they won't. Only time will tell.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
canoecarrier
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:22 am

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
1. Good vibe. The cops were smiling, the protesters were enthused and everyone seemed to be having a chill time.

They're smiling because here in Seattle this morning the police swept everyone out of the park they were in and confiscated all their tents. The cops are thinking, "Awesome! I get a brand new $400 REI tent today!"

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
2. Simple message:

You're trying to keep this focused on your experience, but mine when I went by last week was, "what the hell is the message of this group?" They didn't seem focused at all. Anti-war groups at a rally about how big banks were beatin' the little man down? I was completely confused.

Quoting dragon-wings (Reply 9):
Will these protests do anything?? They been there for a month and Wall Street" seems to be just ignoring them.

The Seattle protests are literally a couple blocks from Goldman Sachs offices here, and they haven't walked by there once. The mayor said they could pitch their tents next to city hall but instead they stayed in the park and got their tents confiscated.

Everytime I see a protest like this, especially in Seattle, it's like the "lost footage of the movie PCU". We protest, just to protest and they stole my tent this morning! Some PETA group will be out next month complaining that the "Husky" mascot for the UW football team is oppressing dogs and we'll have to change the mascot to the endangered Taylor’s checkerspot butterfly found almost exclusively on Ft. Lewis's artillery range.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
flymia
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:38 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
These people are trying to get a grassroots movement rolling so that they are a political force big enough for change. Very similar to what the Tea Party is/was trying to do.
Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Sounds just like the Tea Party in its early days. If the Occupy Wall Street people can get some political action going and push an agenda of ethical business practices, an end to too-big-to-fail, and an end to big business and government being in bed with each other, then they'll get somewhere. If they don't, then they won't. Only time will tell.

A few big differences between the Tea Party and these guys:
People were not arrested in Tea Party gatherings.
Tea Party people did things on the weekends they have to get back to their jobs. They were not living in parks or off public land, They were not consuming millions and millions of tax payer money for extra police.
Also Tea Party had actual politicians back them up. You will not see any current or serious politician or someone that is seriously running for office backing these people up. One reason is they would then lose their election. Occupy may call themselves the 99% but they are the not, most people do not understand them and want them to just stop their protest. Also their demands and ideas are crazy and are socialist and borderline communism at least compared to the system and values of the United States

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 5):
What makes you so sure that some of these people have not tried looking for a job? To outright assume that is also not fair.

If they live in tents and are not showering I doubt they are looking for any jobs.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 6):
The real issue here is the belief that nearly everyone needs to go to college. Getting a degree in something like women's studies or English literature is the problem.

Exactly!!
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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WarRI1
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:57 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):
Occupy may call themselves the 99% but they are the not, most people do not understand them and want them to just stop their protest. Also their demands and ideas are crazy and are socialist and borderline communism at least compared to the system and values of the United States
http://news.yahoo.com/yorkers-suppor...treet-protests-poll-181907523.html



How come this says differently, this report is 6 hours old. Food and money pouring in. Notice who gets the biggest blame for our economic problems.

[Edited 2011-10-17 18:58:40]

[Edited 2011-10-17 18:59:07]
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:11 am

I saw them in YVR Saturday, the guy with the megaphone on the steps of the art gallery at the end of the parade was giving his speech with their "message" and every 5th word was bull#$%!amp;. That is not an exaggeration.

Yes, the government and Wall St do come up with plenty of BS, but in my mind any message littered with pointless gutter language & profanities should hardly make any one sit up and take note, certainly on the scale and at the level they are looking for, in fact it would rather reflect on the level of intelligence behind the message. I certainly would not hire someone who spoke like that in my office. Possibly, therein lies the problem...
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:28 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
http://news.yahoo.com/yorkers-suppor...treet-protests-poll-181907523.html



How come this says differently, this report is 6 hours old. Food and money pouring in. Notice who gets the biggest blame for our economic problems.

But here is a problem:

"Sixty-seven percent of those who responded to a Quinnipiac University survey said they agreed with the Occupy Wall Street protesters, who are upset that banks were allowed to earn huge profits after being bailed out during the recession, while average Americans remained under financial strain."

Who defined that, OWS, or this poll? I'm not surprised that number is that high, in fact, many conservatives on this board agreed with the bold statement, but not OWS.

"An even wider margin, 87 percent, agreed with the protesters' right to camp out in Lower Manhattan, as long as they obeyed the law."

This is a basic right, I am not surprised it is 87%. I don't support OWS (for reasons I will list in a minute) but support their 'right' to do protest peacefully and legally.

"The largest block of voters, 37 percent, blamed former President George W. Bush's administration for the nation's economic problems, while 21 percent blamed banks. Seventy-three percent said they would support tougher government regulation."

This is surprising, IMO. It seems they don't know what caused it, IDK that is just my take.

My problem with OWS is the lack of organization. What do they want? They want "corporations to not be corrupt?" Well, I don't either, but that is so broad! They really need a clear, defined message. Why are the anti-war protests? Because of the spending/economy crash? Maybe, but that doesn't go hand-in-hand with OWS seems to be doing. Maybe if they had real goals, defined and realistic, not being a bunch of whiners but recognizing that there will always be richer people than them but they just want economic safeguards, maybe then I'd support them. I think Dreadnought is bringing up good points, ones that a majority would agree with I daresay. But until then, they are just a bunch of dirty protesters whining all around the country. I am trying to look at them in a more positive light since it was the other way around when the Tea Party started (before politics really mucked it up) but it's hard to take them seriously in this state.

[Edited 2011-10-17 19:29:02]
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BMI727
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:17 am

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
Young people seem really concerned that they will not have job opportunities once they leave college.

If they spend their days holding a sign in the park they won't have to worry about having job opportunities. If only people spent as much time trying to become part of the evil "ruling class" as they did whining about it.

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 3):
I do work at a large investment bank and people ARE genuinely afraid of government audits/crack downs.

I bet the Cayman Islands are nice this time of the year. More regulation could a be a gold mine for a smart foreign nation.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
If the Occupy Wall Street people can get some political action going and push an agenda of ethical business practices,

You can't regulate ethics. Trying will only water down profitability. When did making money become bad?

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
and an end to big business and government being in bed with each other,

Where were these clowns for the GM bailout then?
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WarRI1
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:17 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
My problem with OWS is the lack of organization. What do they want? They want "corporations to not be corrupt?" Well, I don't either, but that is so broad! They really need a clear, defined message. Why are the anti-war protests? Because of the spending/economy crash? Maybe, but that doesn't go hand-in-hand with OWS seems to be doing. Maybe if they had real goals, defined and realistic, not being a bunch of whiners but recognizing that there will always be richer people than them but they just want economic safeguards, maybe then I'd support them. I think Dreadnought is bringing up good points, ones that a majority would agree with I daresay. But until then, they are just a bunch of dirty protesters whining all around the country. I am trying to look at them in a more positive light since it was the other way around when the Tea Party started (before politics really mucked it up) but it's hard to take them seriously in this state.

It is a diverse group for sure, they do need organization, but they have a right to protest, they certainly are not wrong when they say that the system is screwed up, and corrupt. I would ask anyone who can disagree with those points, to please step forward, and deny. I think they have to focus on the most important issues to the common folks. No jobs, corruption of our congress through special interests, the corrupting by money/lobbying of the election process. Allowing banks to be too big to fail, and others too numerous to mention.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
comorin
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:51 am

I'm just trying to report what I saw but like everyone else, I have my biases too!

There have been riots of late, like what happened in Vancouver and Seattle, where vandals and malcontents had their day. But this movement is different, a collection of people who are united by a disaffection for what they see around them. Their first step is to reach out to other like minded people, and then forge a manifesto and a plan of action. I find it intriguing that they have decided on a flat peer-to-peer organization versus a hierarchical structure, a Swarm in organizational terms.

The stated core belief is that they are part of the 99% who have been exploited by the system, and they want things to change in a major cultural way. At a cellular level, this is their micro objective. They are neither Left nor Right, discarded as irrelevant labels. It will be fascinating to see how they coalesce as a group and what their actions will be. I do think this movement is at an early and fragile level, and not self-sustaining as yet.

It is the 21st Century now, and the young have every right to have a say in what they want their lives to be. Much of this is utopian; but utopian is heartwarming, while pragmatism is not.

/ramble
 
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WarRI1
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:27 am

Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
It is the 21st Century now, and the young have every right to have a say in what they want their lives to be. Much of this is utopian; but utopian is heartwarming, while pragmatism is not.

As some would say, how dare they disrupt the system, I do not for sure, may they be successful with these protests to change this corrupt system. Utopian, maybe it is time. I think after watching 100 million dollar yachts, helicopters, submarines, mansions the people are fed up. Only a fool does not see the injustice, or someone wealthy.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
flymia
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 14):
How come this says differently, this report is 6 hours old. Food and money pouring in. Notice who gets the biggest blame for our economic problems.

I dont see the majority of the country. Interesting poll in two things. I did not think that many New Yorkers would agree with it but New York is a very liberal place. But still more than I would think. However blaming Bush for this? That could not be any more wrong and shows their political bias.

And 100% should agree with their right to protest.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
dxing
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:07 am

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):

SNiffffff.......Hey comorin.......you stink! Hit the showers will ya!      
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, a road that goes forever, I'm going to Texas!
 
JL418
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:05 am

Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 3):
I do work at a large investment bank and people ARE genuinely afraid of government audits/crack downs.

As it'd be. I'd happily get back to the separation between retail and investment bank plus a re-regulation of the S&L industry. Things like CDOs and subprime mortgages shouldn't have never happen.
 
StarAC17
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:39 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
You can't regulate ethics. Trying will only water down profitability. When did making money become bad?

Then what is the point of having law and order in a society, I could probably make heaps of money as a hit-man but I have the moral standard not to do it. Not everyone

Yes you can and there are many laws out there to make sure that money is made without violating regulations, competition laws, labour laws and environmental laws etc. Even in a free market is like a sport we need a referee to see who isn't following the rules

Making money isn't bad ,it's necessary but does money have to be made at all cost?
I certainly don't think so and would rather have a healthy work-life balance and enjoy what I do for a living (when I figure that out) even if it ends up that I don't earn as much money as I could earn it wouldn't matter because I would be happy.
This is why the Danes are the happiest in the world because they stress the things in life that really do matter to a person, also this is why people who live in immense poverty are able to be as happy as they are.

Remember these quotes.

- When the last river is poisoned, when the last tree is dead, when the last fish is caught, it is then that we will realize....we can't eat money

- Friends are more important than money.
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Pyrex
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:44 pm

Quoting JL418 (Reply 23):
get back to the separation between retail and investment bank

So J.P Morgan is not allowed to bail out the Fed by agreeing at gunpoint to buy Bear Stearns, or Bank of America not allowed to screw over its own shareholders to do the Fed's bidding and buy Merrill Lynch?

Funny how most countries seem to have no problems running universal banks, it is just somehow in the U.S. that it is evil (at least in the minds of the people who think every regulation is automatically good - more jobs for the planners and the looters).

Quoting JL418 (Reply 23):
plus a re-regulation of the S&L industry

The "regulation" of the S&L crisis was basically a cap on the interest rates that could be paid on deposits, which was rightfully removed after Jimmy Carter drove the U.S. into stagflation. So, just so we are clear, you are in favor of letting some government bureaucrat determine how much someone can get rewarded for the savings from their work? Just trying to figure out the kind of person I am dealing with.

Quoting JL418 (Reply 23):
Things like CDOs and subprime mortgages shouldn't have never happen.

Well, I guess the government shouldn't have invented those, then. But maybe we can get an enlightened bureaucrat such as yourself to tell us exactly who should be entitled to a loan and who shouldn't based on some arbitrary criteria, instead of the person actually putting their money at risk?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
comorin
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:59 pm

Oops: Just noticed I posted "Zanetti Park" instead of "Zucotti Park" -   
 
baroque
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
If the Occupy Wall Street people can get some political action going and push an agenda of ethical business practices,

You can't regulate ethics. Trying will only water down profitability. When did making money become bad?

So which economics guru are you following? I suppose you realise that your concepts are dead against those of Adam Smith. So do tell.
 
baroque
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:03 pm

As for comorin smelling, he could be smelling victory, let us hope so.

One of our protesters from Martin Place was interviewed this morning as he was very intent on getting a shower, so DX your concepts of the smell might be as wrong as most of your other suppositions on the protests.
 
comorin
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:09 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 28):
As for comorin smelling, he could be smelling victory, let us hope so.

Thanks, my brother-in-arms! As they say: Personal Hygiene - so Mainstream!


It is the business of the young to dream of a better world, and change it for the better. This movement is trying to stay away from being co-opted by either Left or Right. The zeitgeist is turning away from unfettered greed and a mystical belief in free markets to solve social problems.

The only problem with this sit-in is that it is right by the entrance to the 9/11 memorial, so it has become a "must stop by" for tourists.
 
Mir
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:50 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
You can't regulate ethics. Trying will only water down profitability.

Fine, if that's what it takes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17):
When did making money become bad?

Never said it did.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JL418
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:43 pm

First of all, I invite you to chill out. I'm sorry if I touched your nerves but I believe in arguing instead of shouting - and I believe in respecting each other's opinion.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
Funny how most countries seem to have no problems running universal banks, it is just somehow in the U.S. that it is evil (at least in the minds of the people who think every regulation is automatically good - more jobs for the planners and the looters).

Read my words. You won't find anything, and I repeat anything, even remotely anti-American.

Having said that, m point is the photocopy of what Paul Krugman in his "The Return of Depression Economics and the Crisis of 2008" and at school my "hero" in Economics was Keynes.

Briefly, in my opinion the Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act should never have been signed. The retail and investment branches of banks were separated for a simple reason, risk. You don't bet people's savings in the derivative markets assuming that everything will keep on going fine, no fat tails exists at the left hand corner of you normal distribution and no bubble will eventually go burst. And yes, I believe in regulation as long as it fixes some kind of threshold to the audacity of any trader.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
The "regulation" of the S&L crisis was basically a cap on the interest rates that could be paid on deposits, which was rightfully removed after Jimmy Carter drove the U.S. into stagflation. So, just so we are clear, you are in favor of letting some government bureaucrat determine how much someone can get rewarded for the savings from their work? Just trying to figure out the kind of person I am dealing with.

Repealing the S&L regulation altogether costed the U.S. taxpayer 124 billion $ between '86 and '95 as Joe Average had to pay for the Resolution Trust Corporation to clean up the rubbles left by the scams prepared by fellows like Danny Faulkner and his lot. Repealing the S&L regulation actually created a system where you could scam outside investors by offering real estate property that no one would buy. I'm no Socialist and I'm in favour of deregulation that remove unnecessary burdens limiting a market. Take the deregulation of US air transport industry, or the Single European Market for civil aviation; take the famous Bolkenstein Directive, may it rest in peace. But I'm not in favour of any deregulation creating a moral hazard as it happened for the S&L thing.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
Well, I guess the government shouldn't have invented those, then. But maybe we can get an enlightened bureaucrat such as yourself to tell us exactly who should be entitled to a loan and who shouldn't based on some arbitrary criteria, instead of the person actually putting their money at risk?

Again, may I invite you to calm down?

Subprime mortgages are a scam, I am not afraid of saying it out loud. Everything about them smell trouble: the fact that they can be used to refinance previous debts, the fact that they can amount to a value 120% of the value of the underlying asset itself, the fact that they're based on an expectation of the value of the underlying to rise, the existence of teaser terms, the fact that they've been given to people with patchy credit history, the fact that they can be bundled together forming AAA-rated CDOs... everything.

If you want the opinion of a enlightened bureaucrat such as myself then here you are.

Do you want to allow minorities and, in general, to allow poor people to own a property? Or do you want those guys to be able to start their own businesses, live the American dream (no irony here) and become wealthy citizens?

In such a case you, as a State, shall act as a guarantor for those people (provided that they meet some requirements such as crime records etc) and enable them to obtain loans for reasonable interest rates without trying to rip them off with small prints. Because you know, and I know, what happened in general after two years in a typical subprime mortgages.
 
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:55 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 29):
The only problem with this sit-in is that it is right by the entrance to the 9/11 memorial, so it has become a "must stop by" for tourists.

This used to be called Liberty Plaza Park didn't it? I've heard a couple places this is a private park and the owners had asked the police to clear it. But, since they built the park so they could get a height increase on their building I wonder if it's any different than a public park in how it's allowed to be used.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Charles79
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting comorin (Thread starter):
Street. Some impressions:

Thank you for sharing your first hand impressions, as with other similar events it is hard to get an accurate picture based solely on what the media portrays. Your description contrasts slightly to the group here in DC. My work place is right across the street from Freedom Plaza where OccupyDC is camping out and from what I have seen the crowd is not that large and the message is decidedly mixed (anti-Wall Street signs coexist with anti-War and even anti-Supreme Court sings). The mood is at best subdued, can't really say much regarding the age, but there seems to be some diversity in terms of social backgrounds (I think a few of the city bumps might be camping in there as well!). So far their presence has not affected my daily routines at all (walking to work/lunch, etc) though they do add yet another distraction for the tourists. I'm certainly intrigued to see how this movement develops and what it becomes as it matures.
 
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:53 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 29):
The only problem with this sit-in is that it is right by the entrance to the 9/11 memorial, so it has become a "must stop by" for tourists.

Are the protests going to move south to Florida during the winter? I can't imagine them building snow forts and pitching tents in Liberty Plaza in mid-December.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
steeler83
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:59 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 5):
What makes you so sure that some of these people have not tried looking for a job? To outright assume that is also not fair.

I'd be out there, too, but I do have a job -- a job that flat-out sucks both in terms of like/dislike and pay. I am fighting like crazy to find something in my field, a field which has been argued by many to be an up-and-coming field, environmental, urban planning, GIS... For right now, entry-to-mid level positions are almost non-existant; senior/executive level work is a-plenty out there. Nobody seems to give a shit about how much education you have. (I have a masters in my field, mind you, and I can't even get an interview for things I know I'm well-qualified for!) They want people with senior-level experience, which I don't have and have zero-chance of getting in this job environment.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:46 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 13):
Occupy may call themselves the 99% but they are the not.

Nor are tea party. But as with the Tea Party, there is widespread support for many of the aims of this movement, and if they could leverage this support they may be able to break the corporate lobbying stranglehold over government in this country.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
Face it, if these people put half the effort into finding a job and working that they've put into their "protests", they would be productive people.

Everyone I know who has been involved in these protests has a job. They go down and show support in their free time. The people living there full time are a sort of core but not representative of the full range of protest.

Also, the mass arrests on the Brooklyn Bridge did not result from violence or anything other than the protesters being in a place they were not supposed to be at that moment. Recall the mass arrests, tear gas, and water cannons used against civil rights protesters in the 50s and 60s. Do these arrests automatically mean that the protesters were "criminals"?

I have my issues with aspects of this movement and protest, namely that a few of those involved are making ridiculous demands that I wouldn't want to be associated with, but many of the others are asking for things I completely agree with and support, and to say that anyone who protests is a reprobate and anyone who exercises civil disobedience is a criminal is ridiculous.
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Pyrex
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:52 am

Quoting JL418 (Reply 31):
Read my words. You won't find anything, and I repeat anything, even remotely anti-American.

Who said anything about anti-americanism? On the contrary, I was mentioning that other countries, at least on that respect, seem to have a more sensible legislation (by understanding that money is money and corporations don't care if it comes from bank lending, underwriting of a bond issue or a best-efforts equity offering) without incurring in any problems.

Quoting JL418 (Reply 31):
Having said that, m point is the photocopy of what Paul Krugman in his "The Return of Depression Economics and the Crisis of 2008" and at school my "hero" in Economics was Keynes.

Krugman and Keynes... what a pair, what-a-pair.

Quoting JL418 (Reply 31):
You don't bet people's savings in the derivative markets

Well, if you think that is what happened then I am sure you will be able to answer the challenge I have been laying out in this forum for weeks, which is to point to ONE SINGLE PARAGRAPH in Glass-Steagall that could have prevented the financial crisis. Bonus points if you can explain why FRB 23A and 23B are somehow not sufficient.

Quoting JL418 (Reply 31):
Repealing the S&L regulation altogether costed the U.S. taxpayer 124 billion $ between '86 and '95

Keeping the laws that were repealed saved U.S. depositors much, much more than that.

Quoting JL418 (Reply 31):
Subprime mortgages are a scam, I am not afraid of saying it out loud.

Ok, so again, will you be the ultimate underwriter, the one to say who gets a loan and who doesn't? How are you, in all your knowledge, implement this? Some arbitrary credit score from some consumer rating agency? What will the cut-off be, oh wise one? And not even going to ask why the subprime auto market performed well.

Quoting JL418 (Reply 31):
In such a case you, as a State, shall act as a guarantor for those people (provided that they meet some requirements such as crime records etc) and enable them to obtain loans for reasonable interest rates without trying to rip them off with small prints.

So, the state should lend the money to every single potential borrower out there? Why should renters subsidize homeowners twice (through mortgage tax deductions and mortgage guarantees)? The government being the ultimate mortgage lender to every man, woman and child (and some pets) is a concept unheard of even in Greece/Europe, and that is saying much.
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:56 am

For one thing I am willing to defend the occupy movement. Despite some of the bucks that do some stupid things I think most of the the protests are made in good intention, many of these people are not just students and what have you but teachers, police, firemen and other professionals - of every race and political position even pro Ron Paul people where in attendance. The American people are in approval of the occupy movement than they are of the Tea Party movement.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:17 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 21):
And 100% should agree with their right to protest.

Correct, but sadly not so, as we can see on here.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 38):
For one thing I am willing to defend the occupy movement. Despite some of the bucks that do some stupid things I think most of the the protests are made in good intention, many of these people are not just students and what have you but teachers, police, firemen and other professionals - of every race and political position even pro Ron Paul people where in attendance. The American people are in approval of the occupy movement than they are of the Tea Party movement.

No doubt, not everyone a bad person, just because they do not like being screwed over. What were they called, A Mob? That is what you get called these days, for exercisng your rights. Scary.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
baroque
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
Quoting JL418 (Reply 31):
Having said that, m point is the photocopy of what Paul Krugman in his "The Return of Depression Economics and the Crisis of 2008" and at school my "hero" in Economics was Keynes.

Krugman and Keynes... what a pair, what-a-pair.

I suppose you know that Keynes and your hero Hayek were the best of friends and that Hayek sent his son to Keynes college to study - as it happens - medicine.
 
Pyrex
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:56 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 40):
I suppose you know that Keynes and your hero Hayek were the best of friends and that Hayek sent his son to Keynes college to study - as it happens - medicine.

Sorry to disappoint you, but have no clue who Hayek is.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
comorin
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:08 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 34):

Hi there. Yes, that used to be Liberty Plaza Park, surrounded by the Burger King, the old NYU Biz School etc. There was a statue of a man sitting on a bench with a briefcase...It is a public park but One Liberty Plaza is obliged to maintain it.

I too wonder about what would happen since Winter is Coming! If i get a chance I'll go by and ask them.


To political posters: There is another thread ongoing where you can rant to your hearts' content, let's keep this thread neutral and factual. This is an interesting movement and its metamorphosis will be interesting to watch. Thanks!

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 33):

Thanks for the view from DC! Please keep us informed and give us your impressions.

Baroque - thanks for your sagacious input and the occasional fly-swatting!  
 
baroque
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:25 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 41):
Sorry to disappoint you, but have no clue who Hayek is.

Why am I not that surprised. Friedrich von Hayek to use the name he preferrred was (Wiki)
was an economist and philosopher best known for his defense of classical liberalism and free-market capitalism against socialist and collectivist thought. He is considered to be one of the most important economists and political philosophers of the twentieth century, winning the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences in 1974. Along with his mentor Ludwig von Mises, he was an important contributor to the Austrian school of political economy.
....
Seven years after the onset of the British Great Depression, which began in 1925, Hayek suggested that private investment in the public markets was a better road to wealth and economic coordination in Britain than government spending programs, as argued in a letter he co-signed with Lionel Robbins and others in an exchange of letters with John Maynard Keynes in The Times
.....
Economists who studied with Hayek at the LSE in the 1930s and 1940s include Arthur Lewis, Ronald Coase, John Kenneth Galbraith, Abba Lerner, Nicholas Kaldor, George Shackle, Thomas Balogh, Vera Smith, L. K. Jha, Arthur Seldon, Paul Rosenstein-Rodan, and Oskar Lange
.....
In 1950, Hayek left the London School of Economics for the University of Chicago, becoming a professor in the Committee on Social Thought. Hayek's first class at Chicago was a faculty seminar on the philosophy of science attended by many of the University's most notable scientists of the time, including Enrico Fermi, Sewall Wright and Leó Szilárd. During his time at Chicago, Hayek worked on the philosophy of science, economics, political philosophy, and the history of ideas. Hayek's economic notes from this period have yet to be published. He did not become part of the Chicago School of Economics, although his recognition of the impact that demand and velocity had on money were a fundamental influence on it.[26] It can be noted that he never taught at the Economics Department which unwaveringly refused him access.
....
During Thatcher's only visit to the Conservative Research Department in the summer of 1975, a speaker had prepared a paper on why the "middle way" was the pragmatic path the Conservative Party should take, avoiding the extremes of left and right. Before he had finished, Thatcher "reached into her briefcase and took out a book. It was Hayek's The Constitution of Liberty. Interrupting our pragmatist, she held the book up for all of us to see. 'This', she said sternly, 'is what we believe', and banged Hayek down on the table".
.. .
Ronald Reagan at his time listed Hayek as among the 2 or 3 people who most influenced his philosophy, and welcomed Hayek to the White House as a special guest.


Any of that such as demand and velocity of money and Thatcher and Reagan not to mention JK Galbraith ring a bell???

You have been espousing Hayek's views for years on these threads. Apparently without knowing it.
 
comorin
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:49 pm

You will all be glad to know that New York has opened its heart and our protesters are eating really well. The New York Post reports that Eric Smith, a former gourmet chef, is cooking a thousand gourmet meals a day backed by the East New York Soup Kitchen at Zuccotti Park. All the food is fresh, organic and locavore:

Says Chef de Tournant Eric Smith:

The other day, we made some wonderful salmon cakes with dill sauce and some quinoa salad and a wonderful tomato salad with fennel and red onion,’’ he said.

“We use organic, grass-fed meats, and the other day, we made a wonderful fried rice and root vegetables and all kinds of soup.”

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...Z7EsDJEZqzPgzzEWKX7I#ixzz1bEeDwQXS

Power to the people!   
 
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modernArt
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:47 pm

"I had my Mac stolen -- that was like $5,500. Every night, something else is gone."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m..._occupation_oh3CnKANUqYHrGPCaZaLRK

People wanting redistribution of wealth complaining when their items are redistributed.
 
comorin
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:54 pm

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 45):
People wanting redistribution of wealth complaining when their items are redistributed.

Actually, these are thieves and pickpockets preying on the protesters. Unfortunately, at some time vandals and nihilists will also exploit these good folk.
 
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modernArt
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:27 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 46):
Unfortunately, at some time vandals and nihilists will also exploit these good folk.

Who said anything about their college professors?

Quoting comorin (Reply 44):
The New York Post reports that Eric Smith, a former gourmet chef, is cooking a thousand gourmet meals a day

Perhaps some down on their luck butlers can throw in their services as well.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:32 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 44):
You will all be glad to know that New York has opened its heart and our protesters are eating really well. The New York Post reports that Eric Smith, a former gourmet chef, is cooking a thousand gourmet meals a day backed by the East New York Soup Kitchen at Zuccotti Park.

They had an article in the Seattle paper yesterday about a hot dog vendor who set up shop next to the protester's camp here. The press is measuring the number of protesters by how many hot dogs he's selling each day.

Quoting comorin (Reply 44):
You will all be glad to know that New York has opened its heart and our protesters are eating really well. The New York Post reports that Eric Smith, a former gourmet chef, is cooking a thousand gourmet meals a day backed by the East New York Soup Kitchen at Zuccotti Park. All the food is fresh, organic and locavore:

The article doesn't really say who's paying for the food. Is he selling it or are they donating it? The NY Post has an article today about a pizza vendor who's selling pizza to the protesters. Apparently, business is good.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...g_big_dough_9j5G8H1kVQMCQgrPPL7rWO
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
JL418
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RE: I Just Walked By Occupy Wall Street

Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
Krugman and Keynes... what a pair, what-a-pair.

One Nobel laureate and one of the most influential thinkers of the last century... Yeah, what a pair.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
Well, if you think that is what happened then I am sure you will be able to answer the challenge I have been laying out in this forum for weeks, which is to point to ONE SINGLE PARAGRAPH in Glass-Steagall that could have prevented the financial crisis. Bonus points if you can explain why FRB 23A and 23B are somehow not sufficient.

OK, I've tried to write it politely but I see that we're having a bad reader out there. CHILL OUT. We are, or at least we're supposed to be, grown-up adults and d***k measurement contests will lead us nowhere. Please, and this is the last time I'm writing it, calm down and change your attitude. I'm here to discuss and not to be derided by a bitter-engulfed I-know-all guy. I'm more than happy to exchange my views with others in a civil manner. Either you can accept it and behave consequently or please do something more productive other than replying to me.

More to the point, I have written that, in my opinion, investment and retail banking should never have been allowed to merge together, forming too-big-to-fail corporations like BofA or Citi. I have said nothing, and I repeat nothing, about the Glass-Steagall act. To say that the aforementioned act, in my opinion, would have spared us a crisis is a lie. Please stick to what I write, not to what you think I've written. Many thanks.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
Keeping the laws that were repealed saved U.S. depositors much, much more than that.

Yes? Can you give me more evidence about that?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
Ok, so again, will you be the ultimate underwriter, the one to say who gets a loan and who doesn't? How are you, in all your knowledge, implement this? Some arbitrary credit score from some consumer rating agency? What will the cut-off be, oh wise one? And not even going to ask why the subprime auto market performed well.

Don't banks decide who's fit for a mortgage and who isn't? The system has been working for many, many years. It works similarly to the steps one takes before investing in a company's bond, doesn't it? One studies at business school the criteria for judging the performance of a company (P/E ratio, liquidity ratios, quick ratio and all the rest of it). Something similar is being done about anyone asking for a mortgage by a bank. Is a norm of common sense, you give money to somebody who looks like a person able to give it back to you.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
So, the state should lend the money to every single potential borrower out there? Why should renters subsidize homeowners twice (through mortgage tax deductions and mortgage guarantees)? The government being the ultimate mortgage lender to every man, woman and child (and some pets) is a concept unheard of even in Greece/Europe, and that is saying much.

Do you happen to read what people write? Just for knowing. The State is not the underwriter of a mortgage but is simply acting in order to give people access to credit at low rates, as the subprimes were intended to do according to Mr. Bush. You have similar forms for student loans or, in my region, for removing asbestos from industrial worksites and replacing old roofings with new ones fitted with solar panels. I don't see anything scandalous in here considering the billions spent in aiding failing banks and being wasted on bonuses by the bankers (Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel laureate, in Freefall.

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