hoons90
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Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:48 am

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/outrage-ble...toddler-left-street-062238612.html

A video that shows a 2-year-old girl getting run over by not only one, but two large vehicles and left to die in a Chinese market while 17 people walked by without doing anything has caused quite an outrage across the world.

The video can be watched here (Warning: EXTREMELY graphic)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys9DPhAMJr0

I almost threw up after seeing this video. No other video has ever made me sick to my stomach like this has.
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YokoTsuno
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:28 am

This incident was shown on TV here yesterday.

What baffles me most is that the video is not just a matter of hit an run. In fact it shows four aspects of human behavior which as a whole defy belief.

1) The first guy was aware of the hit and yet does not see an issue running over the toddler a second time.
2) Some of the by-passers don't even seem to notice the toddler, as if it was abandoned litter.
3) The second driver really seemed to believe it was litter as he just runs over the toddler. What's the big deal here.
4) The "good Samaritan" women grabs the heavily injured toddler and probably sealed the toddlers fate..

How does one explain this event?
 
KPDX
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:38 am

Not surprised at all here. Not one bit.


I'll get flamed for this most likely, but seeing people in that part of the world simply ignore people in dire need of help seems like a common occurrence. Almost all of the videos that show injured victims being ignored come from that part of the world unfortunately. Before you think I'm generalizing, there are hundreds of videos on Youtube and Liveleak that show this if you need proof. It's unfortunate because I know there are just as many great citizens out there..

Just sick. Brainless idiots.


Edit: Good article here that somewhat sums up the point I was trying to make.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...rs-by/story-e6frg6so-1226169339307

The Communist Party's official newspaper, the People's Daily, subsequently conducted a poll that found that 80 per cent of people would not help an elderly person in the street for fear of extortion.

[Edited 2011-10-17 22:42:41]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:42 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 3):

I've observed the same thing, and I'm trying to avoid being general, as I am sure there are many from this part of the world that would indeed help. And if there is a correlation, I see it as a cultural thing and not a racial thing. I have some Chinese friends who lived in China, I'm going to ask them, maybe they have some insight on the kind of people that would ignore such a sad scene...
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KPDX
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:43 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
I see it as a cultural thing and not a racial thing.

Absolutely. All cultures have their faults, but this is just baffling and disgusting.   
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aerorobnz
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:00 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 3):
I'll get flamed for this most likely, but seeing people in that part of the world simply ignore people in dire need of help seems like a common occurrence.

Exactly - it is called Contagion Theory when applied to diminished responsibility in large crowds. China is of course just one big large crowd so it does make sense. When in an environment where there are fewer people there is increased responsibility on you personally to act in order to save an unknown individual, unfortunately its just basic group psychology. China is an extreme case, and so naturally you expect extreme examples of this behavior.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:26 am

Quoting KPDX (Reply 3):
Before you think I'm generalizing, there are hundreds of videos on Youtube and Liveleak that show this if you need proof.

I'm not sure that youtube and liveleak can be relied upon as barometers of the human/cultural condition. By that reasoning, we could also conclude that most American's cannot locate Canada on a map, (the youtube videos are there to prove it!)

However, elements of your point hold true. As a person living and working in China, (sort of) this is an extreme case, but is not particularly surprising. I believe this is the result of 3 things:

1: The Contagion theory mentioned above
2: The fact that the typical citizens of China are not yet even close to any form of self-actualisation, which would result in some form of community spirit or at least care for fellow man, (remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs?)
3: Chinese culture values family as the ultimate, with everything else a very distant second. Hence the reason why they treat their own families better than almost all Western countries, but have very little concern for the wellbeing of those outside the family

Like any culture, it has it's good and bad points. This is an extreme representation of one of the bad points.
 
KPDX
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:36 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 7):
I'm not sure that youtube and liveleak can be relied upon as barometers of the human/cultural condition. By that reasoning, we could also conclude that most American's cannot locate Canada on a map, (the youtube videos are there to prove it!)

Well I see the point you are trying to make, and I agree to an extent, but comparing ignorance and stupidity to an authentic video of someone injured and in need of help is a bit extreme.. There is no doubting an injured/killed person on a video, unlike a group of people off the street being interviewed (who knows if they were cherry picked for the video?).
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:06 am

Quoting HOONS90 (Thread starter):
A video that shows a 2-year-old girl getting run over by not only one, but two large vehicles and left to die in a Chinese market while 17 people walked by without doing anything has caused quite an outrage across the world.

I saw this on various news sites yesterday. True horror and cruelty.
Do people care about a human life anymore?

 
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:33 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
Do people care about a human life anymore?

Sadly, when I read some of the threads in the forums, the numerous wars taking place and reports of cowardly attacks on the elderly it makes me wonder did they ever?

Yet in every bad situation there is always a glimmer of hope. While many people turned the other way, too busy with their own concerns, it was a rubbish collector who came to the child's aid. Those who looked the other way possibly consider themselves better and look down on the person who cleans the streets, but he showed more human worth.
 
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:43 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 7):
2: The fact that the typical citizens of China are not yet even close to any form of self-actualisation, which would result in some form of community spirit or at least care for fellow man, (remember Maslow's hierarchy of needs?)

You can't just level this at people in China, a couple of weeks ago in Oslo a woman was raped on the steps of the Storting, people stood around, watched and posted videos of it on YouTube (now removed). Nobody helped her, people today don't want to help, they are generally to afraid of the repercussions.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:02 pm

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 6):

MSNBC ran an interesting follow up on this story today
http://behindthewall.msnbc.msn.com/_...r-twice-and-no-one-helps?GT1=43001

They link to a recent accident where a Chinese woman fell in a tourist lake and an American woman jumped in to save her while everyone else watched.

Quoting Quokka (Reply 9):

Yet in every bad situation there is always a glimmer of hope. While many people turned the other way, too busy with their own concerns, it was a rubbish collector who came to the child's aid.

Good quote from the article above "Some news reports and online discussions made the point that civil behavior is not always rewarded in China. Many people fear they’re being subject to some sort of scam while others remember still a well-known case from 2006, when a man helped a woman who had fallen only to have her accuse him of causing the injury to begin with. She filed a suit against him, in which the judge ruled the man wouldn’t have come to her aid had he not caused the fall."
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MEA-707
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:41 pm

I was feeling totally disgusted reading this earlier today. But at least there is a bit of good news, the toddler is reported to be still alive although in critical condition in a hospital. I hope her survival will bring awareness and make the world and Chinese more caring.
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foppishbum
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:45 pm

Textbook Bystander Effect.

[Edited 2011-10-18 11:46:37]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:10 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 11):
Good quote from the article above "Some news reports and online discussions made the point that civil behavior is not always rewarded in China. Many people fear they’re being subject to some sort of scam while others remember still a well-known case from 2006, when a man helped a woman who had fallen only to have her accuse him of causing the injury to begin with. She filed a suit against him, in which the judge ruled the man wouldn’t have come to her aid had he not caused the fall."

It answers some questions, but doesn't explain why the first would continue to run over the toddler. Or the 2nd truck for that matter. And I take back what I said about observing this bystander effect only in certain parts of the country--I've seen plenty of car crashes in the US and Europe where the cars after them simply slowly drive around and continue on their day! Who does that!? And it's not like there are emergency personnel on scene, this is right after the fact. I've responded to a couple accidents and know there usually isn't much you can do most the time, but I've at least been able to give a witness report to the officers who arrive...
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canoecarrier
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:28 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
It answers some questions, but doesn't explain why the first would continue to run over the toddler. Or the 2nd truck for that matter.

Absolutely, no excuse for the driver's actions at all. And, a handful of bystanders I can understand but there were 17. I could also buy the explanation on some level if the person hit was 20 or 40 years old, and people were worried it was a scam but it's a 2 year old.

Unfortunately, this kind of behavior is everywhere. There's lots of stories where people are afraid to call 911 when their neighbor is being attacked here in the States or bystanders walking by someone injured on the street.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 12):
But at least there is a bit of good news, the toddler is reported to be still alive although in critical condition in a hospital. I hope her survival will bring awareness and make the world and Chinese more caring.

I hope for the best, but I'd be surprised if she lived in anything more than a vegetative state. Agree that hopefully something good will come out of it though.
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ozglobal
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:37 pm

Quoting KPDX (Reply 5):

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
I see it as a cultural thing and not a racial thing.

Absolutely. All cultures have their faults, but this is just baffling and disgusting.
Quoting KPDX (Reply 3):

Not surprised at all here. Not one bit.


I'll get flamed for this most likely, but seeing people in that part of the world simply ignore people in dire need of help seems like a common occurrence.

Agreed. But have you seen todays BBC report on the epidemic of child deaths in the US through direct mistreatment, abuse and neglect by their own parents?

Quote:
Every five hours a child dies from abuse or neglect in the US.

The latest government figures show an estimated 1,770 children were killed as a result of maltreatment in 2009.

A recent congressional report concludes the real number could be nearer 2,500.

In fact, America has the worst child abuse record in the industrialised world.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15288865
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FoxTwo
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:42 pm

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 1):
How does one explain this event?

Because China , is world no.1 when it comes to human rights, civil liberties, and above all common sense.

"Why would I help the victim if I had nothing to do with it"? The Chinese way.

Disgusting.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:41 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 16):
Agreed. But have you seen todays BBC report on the epidemic of child deaths in the US through direct mistreatment, abuse and neglect by their own parents?

While a huge, tragic problem, I see this as a completely different problem. With the child abuse, you can argue that there is a hatred developed against the child, but here, seeing a random child run over, these people don't even call for help?

The fact that some bystanders don't even look at the child as they pass is a huge red flag that there is something in their culture that we can't even comprehend. Either that, or he has seen so many run over children he doesn't even notice (which I am 99.99% sure it's not.) I could be the most heartless person there is, but I think I'd at least look down as I passed by...
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canoecarrier
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:50 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):

The fact that some bystanders don't even look at the child as they pass is a huge red flag that there is something in their culture that we can't even comprehend.

We have to keep in mind, they do live in a culture where they skin fish alive and throw them right in a frying pan. And that's not a joke. I'm pretty open minded when we compare one culture to another, but running over a 2 year old once, then realizing what you did and hitting the gas again doesn't fall into my realm of cultural understanding.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:02 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 19):
I'm pretty open minded when we compare one culture to another, but running over a 2 year old once, then realizing what you did and hitting the gas again doesn't fall into my realm of cultural understanding.

Oh, by all means, it is indeed inexcusable. But you do bring up a good point, pain and suffering often takes the backburner in China. Look up some PETA fur videos on China (no I'm not a PETA guy but I've seen their videos before.) They will skin mammals alive often, no sedatives, just an attempt to pound them unconscious. I even read that they hang dogs because they believe that the more pain and suffering the animal goes through, the better it tastes.

Now the question is, does this mentality extend to this toddler? Once again, I'm not trying to excuse the behavior, I'm just trying to understand their mentality.

Edit: the mentality of not caring about the pain of others, not about eating the toddler, sorry for the confusion

[Edited 2011-10-18 15:03:02]
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babybus
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:05 pm

How can you run over something and not get out to see what it was? Even if it was just to check for damage to the car.

Do they have emergency services in China? Maybe there was no one to call?

I think the Chinese have a very simple view of the world, you're either alive or dead. Guess they thought this little girl was just dead.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:22 pm

Quoting Babybus (Reply 21):
Do they have emergency services in China? Maybe there was no one to call?

The Mrs. has been over there twice as a nurse. With the exception of Pakistan the medical system in China was the worse she'd seen. And, she's been all over the world.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:02 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 19):
We have to keep in mind, they do live in a culture where they skin fish alive and throw them right in a frying pan.

Hmmm, that would be at the low end of the scale. If you ever want to feel queezy, watch turtle soup being prepared. Watching a shell get ripped off the back of a live turtle is not pleasant.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:11 am

First of all, why was the toddler in the street? Where were her parents or others supposed to be watching her to prevent what happened or be there ASAP when she did get hit to get her help? Perhaps too, if they called the police, they would have lost the child to their social agencies.

I would suspect that the driver of the trucks or other vehicle were probably afraid to report it or turn themselves, fearful of being subject of violence or extortion by the police or a harsh penalty up to possible execution or at the least losing their licenses or their jobs. Of course, including right here in the USA, a driver with a criminal records or wanted for crimes or no insurance might leave the scene of such a situation.

I wonder that as this toddler was a girl and not a boy if that made a difference and reacted differently? China has a history and culture where girls were/are less desirable vs. boys, very much so in the '1-child' era.

One cannot forget that in much of the world, people might not have done anything either although in some places, people would be on their cell phones calling the police, protecting the child and others chasing after the vehicle. In some places a mob might have done some 'instant justice', beating up the drivers before the cops arrive.
 
zalemam
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:57 am

Reminds me of the video of the nigerian guy that was burned to death in a busy street for stealing gold, and people walked by like it was nothing...
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:18 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 24):

First of all, why was the toddler in the street? Where were her parents or others supposed to be watching her to prevent what happened or be there ASAP when she did get hit to get her help? Perhaps too, if they called the police, they would have lost the child to their social agencies.

Well, even the best parents make mistakes, and sometimes it does result in a misfortune.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 24):
I would suspect that the driver of the trucks or other vehicle were probably afraid to report it or turn themselves, fearful of being subject of violence or extortion by the police or a harsh penalty up to possible execution or at the least losing their licenses or their jobs. Of course, including right here in the USA, a driver with a criminal records or wanted for crimes or no insurance might leave the scene of such a situation.

You might be on to something, doesn't explain the 2nd truck though (unless the other truck didn't see her.)

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 24):
I wonder that as this toddler was a girl and not a boy if that made a difference and reacted differently? China has a history and culture where girls were/are less desirable vs. boys, very much so in the '1-child' era.

I've observed (indirectly) this happening, as I know a few Chinese girls that have been adopted out (and no Chinese boys) and I believe some parents there choose to abort girls there (I don't know if that is true) but I'm not sure it would have much impact being someone else's kid, but who knows.


Right when I read this article it reminded me of another story I heard. Before I start, I'm not lumping Vietnamese with Chinese people, it just so happened to occur in Vietnam. My English teacher when she was younger sat with an American soldier on an airplane. She asked him what the worst thing he saw was (this was in the Vietnam War era.) He said the worst thing he saw was an old man crossing the street as a Vietnamese convoy approached. The truck did not slow down or try and avoid the old man, just continued like the old man wasn't there without stopping and killed him. The fact that it wasn't sadistic but the driver just did not care and was completely indifferent is what shocked the soldier.

And another story I was reminded of, coincidentally in China, was from an older soldier. I forget the details of why he was on this plane to begin with, but it was Chinese and there were a few Chinese soldiers with him. They all ganged up on the smallest Chinese soldier and threw him out of the airplane just for fun, no other reason. Sick.
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planewasted
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:52 pm

It will not suprise me if China uses this case as a justification of death penalty. For the first driver.

[Edited 2011-10-19 10:53:31]
 
AviRaider
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:21 pm

Breaks my heart when I see that video. Where has compassion gone in this world?
 
FoxTwo
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:27 pm

I would not blame them if they executed the many who just looked at her and kept walking.

Why?


Because she died due to her injuries this morning.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2...1/10/21/toddler-china.html?cmp=rss
F2
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:53 pm

Well, this is a pretty sad ending to the story.

I have some connections with China and I know first hand that there is a callousness to others in China that is much more obvious there than in other countries. Don’t blame the Party so much - I think the Chinese have always been like that. The Communists actually tried to improve behaviours, even in the depths of the Cultural Revolution with the “Learn from Comrade Lei Feng” campaign.

Not all Chinese are callous. I have also seen examples of helpfulness and kindness there that really touched my heart.

They just need to move the national average for caring behaviour a fair ways in the direction of more humanitarian behaviour.

Maybe this incident will help.
 
geekydude
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:51 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 30):
They just need to move the national average for caring behaviour a fair ways in the direction of more humanitarian behaviour.

Maybe this incident will help.

This is indeed an urgent problem, as I observe it, in the current Chinese society. There needs to be a "good Samaritan" law in place to protect people who offer care and help. There have been quite a few widely publicized incidences where people offered help and were subsequently accused by the helpee of being responsible for causing the accident in the first place. The court rulings of those cases were not in favor of the helpers either. Therefore, people are generally and genuinely afraid of getting involved and becoming victims of scams themselves. I truly hope this tragedy will serve as a wake up call to the general public.
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777way
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:02 pm

Publicly rewarding people who care would definitely help, need'nt be money or cars and houses, just things gadgets, household appliances, a months free ration, a years scholarship for kid etc. would do, but it has to be made public and given media attention.

Would this have happened pre-1980s when they were more secluded and not a semi-capitalist powerhouse?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:06 pm

I'm seeing too many nasty generalizations. I work with Chinese students on a daily basis. They are extremely warm, friendly, and caring.

One of my students brought up another incident. The way he explained it (unfortunately I believe lots was lost in translation) is that the Chinese government has some draconian laws (no surprise there). He told me about an incident where an old man apparently tripped and fell unconscious when crossing a street. Two younger men went to assist him. Somehow apparently the police got involved. The men assisting the old man were sent to court, and a judge ruled that hey were to serve jail time and they had to repay damages to the old man. I couldn't understand why, neither could my student, he said it made no sense at all. He said many similar things have occurred, of people helping other people, and the government for one odd reason or another, punishes those giving assistance. It is absurd, but it happens apparently, and obviously that discourages the Chinese society to do a lot of things.

I certainly don't agree with the idiotic decisions the Chinese government makes, but to call all Chinese people an inhumane, soulless society is a blatant generalization and a huge display of ignorance.

Having traveled plenty as well, I'm not too sure I'd even call citizens of my own country warm and welcoming either to begin with.

[Edited 2011-10-21 13:08:08]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:08 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 33):
I certainly don't agree with the idiotic decisions the Chinese government makes, but to call all Chinese people an inhumane, soulless society is a blatant generalization and a huge display of ignorance.

   Some of my best friends in high school were Chinese (who actually immigrated only years before) and they were some of the nicest, caring people I know. Definitely different than those in the video. Like I said, there has to be something cultural we don't understand...
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slider
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:25 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 8):
Do people care about a human life anymore?


Well, whilst it's already been established that there are group psychologies involved with this sort of thing, it's also important to note that this also happened in a nation in which infanticide is S.O.P.

There is no value of human life other than being a widget in a Communist nation. Heck, our own West faces the same degradation of value of human life--euthanasia, abortion, etc...

But in China---they take the cake. At no point in human history has such a powerful nation (Rome included) had such an abysmal blanket perspective and policy on human life.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go to Wal-Mart and buy cheap crap made over there to worship at the altar of free trade.

And I'll say a prayer for that little angel's soul.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Disgust And Outrage: Chinese Toddler Left To Die

Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:30 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 35):
At no point in human history has such a powerful nation (Rome included) had such an abysmal blanket perspective and policy on human life.

Rome included?? really?? They threw unwanted babies and children straight onto the rubbish midden, had ritual baby sacrifices to their Gods, massacred anyone they were invading if they failed to become Roman, gave slaves absolutely NO rights. And even their methods of execution were far and away worse than the Chinese efficiency of beheading or shooting...

Try the following
Throwing a criminal the highest point of a prison
Crucifixion
Burying a person alive
Throwing a criminal into the river with a dog, a serpent a monkey and a rooster and sewn into sack

Sorry, The Chinese Government are bad, but not even close - there are just more of them that's all..
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.

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