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WarRI1
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Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:55 am

http://front.moveon.org/the-paycheck...ly.share&id=32338-18336682-jJh4Gux


This is interesting, corporations do not need, nor should they get any help from government. That is the Mantra of the "Right" A free and open market is another one, that will generate jobs, all that. This is not what is going on here.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:01 am

Sneaky sneaky Illinois... I see this not lasting much longer, and I also see many companies moving their HQs out of Chicago. I always wondered what kind of deal Illinois struck with certain companies to keep their HQs there (like Boeing, IIRC)
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WarRI1
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:10 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Sneaky sneaky Illinois... I see this not lasting much longer, and I also see many companies moving their HQs out of Chicago. I always wondered what kind of deal Illinois struck with certain companies to keep their HQs there (like Boeing, IIRC)

We have an economic war going on here in the US. One state, one region cannibalizing another state or region for jobs. They sign tax deals, for a certain period of time. The corporations stay until the agreement ends, then onto the next state. They play the states like a fiddle. In manufacturing, the end result is the jobs being outsourced after the tax break. It has happened right here in R.I. The HQ stays, while the manufacturing process goes overseas.
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Okie
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:41 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
In manufacturing, the end result is the jobs being outsourced after the tax break. It has happened right here in R.I.


The "Clue" is that the normal tax rate must be too high, otherwise they would not have moved.
If you build a non-business friendly environment then the business's leave as you indicate.
Whether or not you or I like it, businesses have to be competitive regardless if it is rules, regulations, labor costs or taxes that end up in the final cost of a product. If not then other companies will. We have lost our share of manufacturing in our state as well over time, especially when a company is global in nature. The US has trouble competing on a global scale when you figure high labor rates, taxes, rules and regulations, somewhere the US is just going to have to get a leg up.



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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:00 am

Quoting okie (Reply 3):
The US has trouble competing on a global scale when you figure high labor rates, taxes, rules and regulations, somewhere the US is just going to have to get a leg up.

This is what I have a pickle with. Sure, it sucks to have one state/region canibalize another state/region for jobs/money, etc... What really hurts is when we lose jobs to places overseas. I watched that happen when steel mill after steel mill closed up shop across Pittsburgh for greener pastures in another country with much cheaper labor costs/taxes, etc, particularly to Venezuela.

Ok, so these companies are pocketing the Illinois state tax in its entirety. What the heck will they do with that (or should I even bother asking, I think we can all guess...)?
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WarRI1
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:17 am

Quoting okie (Reply 3):

I guess we will just have to go back to minimum wage and start over. We could also go back to room and board for wages. Company stores, all that good stuff of the old days. I'll just bet that would not work either, they now have a taste for managing, while contracting work out. so simple, so lucrative, so few people to pay an honest wage to. I hope that I did not go to far, using the term an honest wage. I know most on here hate the words living wage.
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Geezer
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:34 am

Quoting okie (Reply 3):


The "Clue" is that the normal tax rate must be too high, otherwise they would not have moved.
If you build a non-business friendly environment then the business's leave as you indicate.
Whether or not you or I like it, businesses have to be competitive regardless if it is rules, regulations, labor costs or taxes that end up in the final cost of a product. If not then other companies will. We have lost our share of manufacturing in our state as well over time, especially when a company is global in nature. The US has trouble competing on a global scale when you figure high labor rates, taxes, rules and regulations, somewhere the US is just going to have to get a leg up.

Overall, I think Okie is "right on the money" on this issue. While I am very aware of just how very greedy a lot of Corporate management has become the last 20 or so years, I still think capitalism is the only way to go. Overall, corporations have accomplished a lot, have been tremendously successful overall, and at the same time, the Federal Government's track record on accomplishment is completely dismal. I can think of but two things "The Government" is really good at.........spending other people's money, and winning wars, ( and I give the Armed Force's 98% of the credit for the latter. )

Over my lifetime, I have watched a lot of big corporations do a lot of very dumb things; General Motors is at the top in this regard; ( and look where G.M. is now ! ) ( At the "bottom" looking up, unlike the days when they thought they had the car business in the U.S. in their pocket ! )

Still, in spite of the present economic "mess" ( which we all know is all George Bush's fault ), ( just ask Obama ), we must have been doing something right, as I can't think of any other country I would even think about "emigrating" to.

Getting back to the OP's original "point"...........which I believe was a piece by that "great purveyor of truth", Moveon.org, if you really believe ANYTHING that bunch of "schmucks" says, I have a large suspension bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you !

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 6):
Getting back to the OP's original "point"...........which I believe was a piece by that "great purveyor of truth", Moveon.org, if you really believe ANYTHING that bunch of "schmucks" says, I have a large suspension bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you !

I am sorry, I already sold it to pay my bills. I wonder, did you find anything untrue from the Reuters reporter? Move on put the piece on, Move on picked up on it. Is that something illegal, untrue, distorted? I would be glad to read about the untruth of the matter, if you can provide a link.
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BMI727
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:59 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
This is interesting, corporations do not need, nor should they get any help from government.

But this is a measure to lower costs to companies, lest they move the factories overseas. Aren't you the one always railing against outsourcing? Who are you crapping?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I also see many companies moving their HQs out of Chicago.

That's because Illinois taxes are oppressive.(T-29th in income tax, highest sales tax, and 7th highest property taxes) And the budget is still FUBAR. More revenue can save us!

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
We have an economic war going on here in the US. One state, one region cannibalizing another state or region for jobs. They sign tax deals, for a certain period of time. The corporations stay until the agreement ends, then onto the next state.

You get what you can negotiate. Surely someone who so vocally supports unions (even the horrible ones) can understand that.

Quoting okie (Reply 3):
The "Clue" is that the normal tax rate must be too high, otherwise they would not have moved.

   If the state were competitive, they wouldn't need to offer incentives like this to get businesses into the area. They can set and structure taxes however they like and suffer the consequences.
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WarRI1
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:19 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
But this is a measure to lower costs to companies, lest they move the factories overseas. Aren't you the one always railing against outsourcing? Who are you crapping?

One minute free markets, no government regulation, interference. government keep your hands off corporations, give them lower tax rates, but feed them government money, bribe them to keep jobs in the US, states. To use income taxes to pay them, to improve their bottom line is abhorrant You are laughable, an apologist for anything corporate. Sad.
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MarSciGuy
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:38 am

Quoting steeler83 (Reply 4):

Quoting okie (Reply 3):
The US has trouble competing on a global scale when you figure high labor rates, taxes, rules and regulations, somewhere the US is just going to have to get a leg up.

This is what I have a pickle with. Sure, it sucks to have one state/region canibalize another state/region for jobs/money, etc... What really hurts is when we lose jobs to places overseas. I watched that happen when steel mill after steel mill closed up shop across Pittsburgh for greener pastures in another country with much cheaper labor costs/taxes, etc, particularly to Venezuela.

Ok, so these companies are pocketing the Illinois state tax in its entirety. What the heck will they do with that (or should I even bother asking, I think we can all guess...)?

Pay their CEOs more and lobby to get rid of the minimum wage? ... that seems like what some on here want...
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BMI727
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:47 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 9):
One minute free markets, no government regulation, interference. government keep your hands off corporations, give them lower tax rates, but feed them government money, bribe them to keep jobs in the US, states.

I'm not endorsing the practice - just pointing out your utter hypocrisy. As a taxpayer, I'd hate this idea. And I'd be pissed that my government can't control themselves in terms of spending and has such high taxes in the first place.

I don't like having the government subsidizing business or propping up struggling companies, but if I was going to build a factory don't think for a second I wouldn't try and shake the trees of state and local government for tax breaks and the like.

And then again, playing vendors off against each other is the free market at work. Just as one might play dealers off against each other when buying a new car, companies can play countries, states, and locales off against each other when building new facilities. Having to offer tax incentives to get and keep jobs should be a big red flag for states that their costs are too high.
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WarRI1
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:49 am

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 10):
Pay their CEOs more and lobby to get rid of the minimum wage? ... that seems like what some on here want...

Hey, hey! You got that right. It will cure all, it will create jobs, it will allow jobs to stay here. My list to stay, waiters, dishwashers, cooks, yard workers, farm workers, car washers, and polishers, store clerks (Walmart) type. donut shop, coffee shop, quahaugers, truck drivers. You know, the kind where you have no pensions, no healthcare. a veritible workers paradise to many on here.
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Okie
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting MarSciGuy (Reply 10):

Pay their CEOs more and lobby to get rid of the minimum wage? ... that seems like what some on here want


Only one suggesting that is

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):
I guess we will just have to go back to minimum wage and start over. We could also go back to room and board for wages. Company stores, all that good stuff of the old days. I'll just bet that would not work either, they now have a taste for managing, while contracting work out. so simple, so lucrative, so few people to pay an honest wage to. I hope that I did not go to far, using the term an honest wage. I know most on here hate the words living wage



As I said the US is going to have to get a leg up or we will continue to fall down competing in the global market.
Whether that is insisting that imported goods are manufactured under the same pollution requirements as the US or taxed the same as the US or lower taxes for the US manufacturers the list could go on or simply get the government out of the way.

How about a better solution that actually adds up and helps the unemployment problem.


Okie
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:12 am

Quoting okie (Reply 13):
Only one suggesting that is

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 5):I guess we will just have to go back to minimum wage and start over. We could also go back to room and board for wages. Company stores, all that good stuff of the old days. I'll just bet that would not work either, they now have a taste for managing, while contracting work out. so simple, so lucrative, so few people to pay an honest wage to. I hope that I did not go to far, using the term an honest wage. I know most on here hate the words living wage

I must have read this wrong, surely you did not say that I supported what I said above. You do know what (in jest) means, I hope. Seems like Fox news sometimes on here, distortion. I maybe mistaken, if I am my apologies, if I am not?
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slider
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:24 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
That's because Illinois taxes are oppressive.(T-29th in income tax, highest sales tax, and 7th highest property taxes) And the budget is still FUBAR.

Illinois is circling the drain and rightfully so. Factor in the despicable pension issue that arose again this week where a one-day substitute teacher is going to cash a $108k annual pension based on a loophole that the legislators failed to close (lobbied by the public sector unions, again despicably) and you have a state that is absolutely dysfunctional.

Ohio's figuring it out--there have to be icnentives (not temporary ones, but a true structural long-term advantage) to lure and retain businesses. Less regulation, simpler cleaner tax structure, advantageous costs of living and doing business....these are all things that Illinois FAILS on completely.
 
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:13 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 15):
Illinois is circling the drain and rightfully so. Factor in the despicable pension issue that arose again this week where a one-day substitute teacher is going to cash a $108k annual pension based on a loophole that the legislators failed to close (lobbied by the public sector unions, again despicably) and you have a state that is absolutely dysfunctional.

Ohio's figuring it out--there have to be icnentives (not temporary ones, but a true structural long-term advantage) to lure and retain businesses. Less regulation, simpler cleaner tax structure, advantageous costs of living and doing business....these are all things that Illinois FAILS on completely.

Illinois is still a net contributor to the USA versus Ohio which receives more in federal dollars than it provides. Illinois provides a greater net benefit than Texas too. Doesn't mean it needs to change or is not a mess internally, just that it is not that bad as a State in the United States.

It may be a mess but it is it's own mess and not adding to the USA's deficit.

Just sayin'....

Tugg
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seb146
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:34 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 13):
Whether that is insisting that imported goods are manufactured under the same pollution requirements as the US or taxed the same as the US or lower taxes for the US manufacturers the list could go on or simply get the government out of the way.

This thought is another example of the right talking out both sides: The government needs to do something but the government needs to get out of the way. I hear it all the time from the right and it irritates me. When they are called on it, they justify it and say it's fine for them to say that.

I believe there is a "Buy American" law on the books but it is rarely enforced.

Quoting okie (Reply 13):
How about a better solution that actually adds up and helps the unemployment problem.

Trickle-down economics worked so well...
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:53 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 2):
We have an economic war going on here in the US. One state, one region cannibalizing another state or region for jobs. They sign tax deals, for a certain period of time. The corporations stay until the agreement ends, then onto the next state. They play the states like a fiddle. In manufacturing, the end result is the jobs being outsourced after the tax break. It has happened right here in R.I. The HQ stays, while the manufacturing process goes overseas.

Very few companies make decisions based solely on temporary tax credits or shop from state to state on a continuous basis. Relocation is tremendously expensive - even with incentives.

There are whole slew of reasons why manufacturing is shrinking as a percentage of the U.S. economy and becoming less competitive abroad. I would start by pointing out that demand for goods in the U.S. is stagnant. Growth is occuring overseas. So why shouldn't you be manufacturing where your customers are located, especially if it is cheaper? Get the U.S. economy growing so that more U.S. companies have U.S. clients and that becomes a much smaller problem.
 
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:42 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
There are whole slew of reasons why manufacturing is shrinking as a percentage of the U.S. economy and becoming less competitive abroad. I would start by pointing out that demand for goods in the U.S. is stagnant. Growth is occuring overseas. So why shouldn't you be manufacturing where your customers are located, especially if it is cheaper? Get the U.S. economy growing so that more U.S. companies have U.S. clients and that becomes a much smaller problem.

We are enriching the workers in those countries, while impoverishing ourselves. NO jobs, no demand for goods. That is all I can say. Simple rules, no workee, no eatee, no buying, from no job.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:35 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
We are enriching the workers in those countries, while impoverishing ourselves

Sure, if you want to take the absolute most cynical and xenophobic viewpoint.

As I've said many times before, I'm actually in the manufacturing sector for oil & gas equipment. These are issues I actually confront with actual consequences. Developing nations don't like huge trade deficits any more than we do, and for decades they have been on the losing end far worse than we have. As manufacturing competencies flatten, they are going to demand a greater share of the work for products they are buying. And why shouldn't they? Americans are not the only people who want a better living.

The consequence is that selling to these countries now requires a measure of ingenuity to perform some work in-country while still balancing your other priorities. Among those in maintaining effective use of the investments in people and infrastructure our company maintains in the U.S. We recently won a contract for close to $1 billion from a national oil company by agreeing to do a percentage of work in the country. Had we not made that stipulation, we would have surely lost all of the business to a European or Japanese competitor who would have.

The American worker doesn't have to take it lying down. It just means we need more skills and more productivity to justify our higher wages. We have close to 40 open positions for college engineering graduates. Starting pay is about $70K for 22 year olds. The American dream is alive and well for the people suitable for those positions. The problem today is that everyone expects that kind of pay regardless of whether they have any marketable skills or not.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 19):
NO jobs, no demand for goods. That is all I can say. Simple rules, no workee, no eatee, no buying, from no job.

It's common sense that demand must precede production. Otherwise, there is nothing objective to guide production decisions and the result will be tremendous waste. Ask the Soviet Union how effective top-down economic planning works.

[Edited 2011-10-27 17:37:21]
 
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RE: Where State Income Taxes Go In Ill. Nice!

Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 20):
Sure, if you want to take the absolute most cynical and xenophobic viewpoint

I want to take the position that benefits the US worker, I want to take the position that helps the US. I give a damn as much as the Chinese Government, and the Chinese worker give a damn about us. To bring the race card into it is assinine. It is jobs, money and economic prosperity for us. That is what I care about.  
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