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alberchico
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French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:10 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15550350

They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits. Luckily no one got hurt.
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vikkyvik
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:29 pm

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits.

Wait, what? Are you supporting the firebombing?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:31 pm

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):

They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits.

"We are the Religion of Peace - and if you disagree we will kill you!"

Until people realize that no religion (or any other institution) should be declared off-limits to commentary, opinion, and sometimes ridicule (Which is the entire intent of Freedom of Speech), and that they can choose to answer it likewise through the freedom of speech or simply ignore it, but never by murder and mayhem, I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.
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BrouAviation
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:37 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.

It might not be the wisest decision, but I like your style.   
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ozglobal
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:38 pm

I don't read Charlie Hebdo nor do I necessarily support their actions. Rightly there should be limits to freedom of the press and other values should prevail, but does a strong faith, worthy of belief, feel so weak and vulnerable to any criticism ever, that violence is the instinctive repsonse? Does a strong god need his followers to kill or attack others to uphold his honour?
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:45 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
Wait, what? Are you supporting the firebombing?

No but they damn well knew what could happen if they dared to depict Muhammad...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.

Great idea. Lets submit the staff of newspapers and magazines to death threats and acts of violence just for the sake of making a point  
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
LAXintl
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:46 pm

If people want to be dumb enough to draw and publish such incendiary things go ahead.

But like crossing a street without looking, they should not be surprised at the potential outcomes.
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iakobos
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:11 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.

It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.
They could tell each others funny stories about their respective followers.

There is material for a good script...
 
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:33 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 8):
It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.
They could tell each others funny stories about their respective followers.

You can (and many have) make some pretty hateful cartoons of God or Jesus or Buddha or Shiva and other spiritual characters. You might get people angry, and you might get a lot of hatemail. People might boycott your newspaper. But it is highly unlikely that you will be responded to with carbombs, beheadings, or a knife in the street (Van Goegh) with the exception of one religion.

The whole reason why Freedom of Speech has been written into modern society (not just in the US but in every modern country) is that we have learned, by our own experience, what happens when an institution, such as a King, or the Church, is considered by law to be beyond any form of criticism either directly or through satire or otherwise.

If nobody would be offended, there would be no need for Freedom of Speech.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:33 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 8):
It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.

The South Park Muhammad episode did just that. Poked fun at Jesus, Santa Claus and Muhammad. In the end they censored all that the Muhammad character said and never showed him in character form. They still got death threats.

The storyline originally had Muhammad in a bear suit the whole time. Not the caricature of Muhammad that is shown in most cartoons.
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Dreadnought
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:44 pm

I would draw the line at mocking Pastafarians. Nobody must must be allowed to insult the The Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!

Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:46 pm

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15550350

They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits. Luckily no one got hurt.

Get a special law to excempt Islam from satire, next thing the Christian bishops want to have the old blasphemy laws re-introduced for their religion as well.
No, catch the guy, try him for arson and possibly attempted manslaughter and throw the (French) criminal code at him.
Then, if he is not a citizen, deport him to whereever he came from.

Jan
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slider
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:09 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 5):
Does a strong god need his followers to kill or attack others to uphold his honour?

In Islam, it's mandated. That's part of their belief system as stated by their prophet. We've already covererd this real estate repeatedly here on this site.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
If people want to be dumb enough to draw and publish such incendiary things go ahead.

But like crossing a street without looking, they should not be surprised at the potential outcomes.

So you're condoning the violence essentially? You think satire is incendiary? Give me a break. If that's the case, then the good folks at The Onion ought to also fear for their lives too.

IT'S A JOKE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. And you know what I say? F 'em if they can't take a joke. And that goes for all the other thin-skinned namby pamby people in our society who cry at the first sign of anything these days. It's BS.
 
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:10 pm

They have done the same thing with the Pope.

Charlie Hebdo is a Trotskyst publication and they love to denigrate religions. They always have, they always will. I remember the now dead Professor Choron. Things were a lot more acid when he was living and leading Charlie Hebdo.

Only that the catholics after all the insulting cartoons they published on various Popes Bishops and priests, the catholics never burned their headwuarters or attacked their journalists. Not even the most ultra-conservative groups like Bishop Williamson who was also a target of Charlie Hebdo.

Some religions accept freedom of expression more than others. You can mess with some, not with others. It will be interesting when Islam becomes the first religion in France - which is about to be. They will probably have Charlie Hebdo and other such publications shut down.
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vikkyvik
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:21 pm

Quoting iakobos (Reply 8):
It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.

Why is it unfair? If someone wants to target Muhammed alone, or Jesus, or Buddha, or whoever, then let them!

Your statement is like saying, "if you want to make fun of one person, you have to make fun of all 7 billion people in the world".

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
No but they damn well knew what could happen if they dared to depict Muhammad...

Sure. But that doesn't make the reaction OK by any stretch of imagination. Basically, your opening post sounds like it's supporting the firebombers.

I damn well know that when I get in my car every morning, I could get hit by someone running a red light. Doesn't make it right.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
The whole reason why Freedom of Speech has been written into modern society (not just in the US but in every modern country) is that we have learned, by our own experience, what happens when an institution, such as a King, or the Church, is considered by law to be beyond any form of criticism either directly or through satire or otherwise.

If nobody would be offended, there would be no need for Freedom of Speech.

      

And it applies to allowing people to make comment about and criticisms of the (elected or otherwise) government! We all know what happens when a government or any leadership body denies its people the freedom to speak their minds. It become an oppressive and false society.

Quoting slider (Reply 13):
In Islam, it's mandated. That's part of their belief system as stated by their prophet.

Just curious, was it actually mandated by Mohammed (whom I believe is "the Prophet")?

Did he instruct "You may not mock me!", or was it the zealots and religious leaders that came afterwards that made it unacceptable and un-allowable in order to bolster their power? Like I said, just curious, not denying that attacking "blasphemers" appears to be mandated/OK.

Tugg
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:36 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 14):
Only that the catholics after all the insulting cartoons they published on various Popes Bishops and priests, the catholics never burned their headwuarters or attacked their journalists. Not even the most ultra-conservative groups like Bishop Williamson who was also a target of Charlie Hebdo.

That´s why I say that being scared of radical Islamists is the wrong thing. The perp needs to be caught, tried and thrown into jail.
It´s a matter of a selfdefending democracy. We have our principles, like freedom of press and speech and freedom of religion, which have been won in hundreds of years of struggle (in Europe mainly against the Christian churches, but also against aristocrats and feudalists as well as dictators). These principles are too important to let oneself being bullied by religious fanatics.
Seriously, even though I´m an atheist I´m extremely tolerant concerning other people´s religions and lifestyles, but i won´t let anybody bully me and I am willing to defend the constitution, if necessary, with weapons. I´m also quite sure that thousands of moderate Muslims living in France or Germany would defend the consdtitution as well.
I have heard enough voices from moderate Muslims concerning the current rebellions in Libya and Syria, which condem the attrocities committed by the dictators Ghaddafi and Assad, but who are also extremely suspicious of the radical islamists trying to get to power.

Jan
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Dreadnought
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:40 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):
Just curious, was it actually mandated by Mohammed (whom I believe is "the Prophet")?

Did he instruct "You may not mock me!", or was it the zealots and religious leaders that came afterwards that made it unacceptable and un-allowable in order to bolster their power? Like I said, just curious, not denying that attacking "blasphemers" appears to be mandated/OK.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (59:369) - This recounts the murder of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, a Jewish poet who wrote verses about Muslims that Muhammad found insulting. He asked his followers, 'Who will rid me of this man?' and several volunteered. al-Ashraf was stabbed to death while fighting for his life.

Bukhari (3:106) - "The Prophet said, "Do not tell a lie against me for whoever tells a lie against me (intentionally) then he will surely enter the Hell-fire."

Bukhari (4:241) - Those who mocked Muhammad at Mecca were killed after he had retaken the city and asserted his authority.

From the Quran:

033.060-61
If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is a disease and the agitators in the city do not desist, We shall most certainly set you over them, then they shall not be your neighbors in it but for a little while;

Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:47 pm

In fact Charlie Hebdo's intentions were to have Prophet Muhammad as the editor in chief of that particular issue. They declared despite of the Muslim protests that the "Mohammad" Charlie will be sold in the news stands this week anyway.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:03 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
The whole reason why Freedom of Speech has been written into modern society (not just in the US but in every modern country) is that we have learned, by our own experience, what happens when an institution, such as a King, or the Church, is considered by law to be beyond any form of criticism either directly or through satire or otherwise.

Religious fanatics of any colour usually claim that their rules have been written by a higher being and are therefore not to be challenged by mere mortals, and the interpretation of the scriptures by the fanatics is usually the only one they accept.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:20 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
From the Hadith:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
From the Quran:

Well there you go... wow.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:26 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):
That´s why I say that being scared of radical Islamists is the wrong thing. The perp needs to be caught, tried and thrown into jail.

Agreed. Regardless of the religion, belief or politics we shouldn't bow down to extremism in any form. We don't hear Hindus in our country telling us not to eat cows because they believe they're sacred. In fact, I can't ever remember a time where a Hindu's have ever told us not to do something they find sacred.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 17):
Seriously, even though I´m an atheist I´m extremely tolerant concerning other people´s religions and lifestyles, but i won´t let anybody bully me and I am willing to defend the constitution, if necessary, with weapons.

I think most western countries are extremely tolerant of other people's religions and lifestyles, but there needs to be a point where if someone publishes something like a cartoon with an image of Muhammad and gets threatened an example should be made of those making the threat. And it is a threat not a charge of religious persecution.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
iakobos
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:30 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 15):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 8):
It would be unfair to target the sole Muhammat, let a cartoonist make a good serie where all spiritual personalities share the stage in a convivial context, something like the Gods' Café.

Why is it unfair? If someone wants to target Muhammed alone, or Jesus, or Buddha, or whoever, then let them!

Your statement is like saying, "if you want to make fun of one person, you have to make fun of all 7 billion people in the world".

Sorry that you missed the allegory of having all Gods and Prophets gathering in a cosy place with Mary and Magdalena behind the bar, and a panoramic view on the planet.
 
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:12 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
Islam needs to learn that it is THEY whoo need to adjust and assimilate into Western culture!!

Indeed. Any time I visit an Islamic country, I am reminded of situations when I must show respect and modesty. So please, do the same when you come to our countries. Freedom of speech is important to us.

Now, I know this will probably get me flamed, but to anyone who thinks it is rational to firebomb somewhere because they depict your prophet, get the hell over yourselves and your damn religion.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:16 pm

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 24):
Now, I know this will probably get me flamed, but to anyone who thinks it is rational to firebomb somewhere because they depict your prophet, get the hell over yourselves and your damn religion.

I still have trouble understanding why it's ok to publicly/privately behead or stone people, regardless of where you are and the predominant religion. Neither are rational.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
LAXintl
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:33 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 13):
So you're condoning the violence essentially? You think satire is incendiary? Give me a break.

Any smart person on the planet understands there are consequences in actions.

No one is stopping anyone from publishing such material, which many might view as slanderous.

But if one chooses to proceed, one should smartly understand ramifications of such willful actions.

Its the same with things like hate speech. Yes you can try to say it, however certainly expect to deal with the fall out consequences.
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aloges
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
I would draw the line at mocking Pastafarians. Nobody must must be allowed to insult the The Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!


Stop the presses... you made me laugh! You genuinely amused me!  Wow!

That, I have to say, is bigger news to me than yet another pseudo-Muslim giving fodder to islamophobes left, right and centre.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
474218
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
Freedom of speech has limits.

I would say "firebombs" are outside the limits.

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 5):
Rightly there should be limits to freedom of the press and other values should prevail, but does a strong faith, worthy of belief, feel so weak and vulnerable to any criticism ever, that violence is the instinctive repsonse?

Who should set those limits?

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):
No but they damn well knew what could happen if they dared to depict Muhammad...

Dared to depict Muhammad?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):
If people want to be dumb enough to draw and publish such incendiary things go ahead.

"Incendiary" in who's eyes?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
No, catch the guy, try him for arson and possibly attempted manslaughter and throw the (French) criminal code at him.

So trying to kill someone in with a "firebomb" is "manslaughter" in France!

Quoting slider (Reply 13):
In Islam, it's mandated. That's part of their belief system as stated by their prophet. We've already covererd this real estate repeatedly here on this site.

I am sorry but "what Islam mandates" does not supersede a countries laws.
 
Stealthz
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:20 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
Any smart person on the planet understands there are consequences in actions

Those consequences should be, in a free and open society, discusion and perhaps vigourous discussion but firebombing and attempted murder is unacceptable.

By your reasoning, the USA was perceived in the '90s to take action against some in the Muslim world leading to denunciations and fatwas against the USA, so 9/11 was justified and OK?
Seems to me that is what you are saying

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
however certainly expect to deal with the fall out consequences.

And for the firebombers in a society that lives by the rule of law those consequences should be the mailed fist of the law coming down on them.
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canoecarrier
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:34 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):

No one is stopping anyone from publishing such material, which many might view as slanderous.

I'm fairly certain that's their desired outcome. "We don't like it, so you won't do it".

I'm all for people publishing unpopular literature, if it wasn't for people like Thomas Payne our country probably would still be a member of the Commonwealth. But, this isn't the way to change things. I don't think we should change that much that we can't make cartoons out of religious characters without fearing for our lives. What if they insisted that women wear burquas in public regardless of their religion? They're telling us now what we can say or publish, what other freedoms should we have to give up? It's happened in Israel with radical Jews, in Europe with radical Islamists.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 29):

Those consequences should be, in a free and open society, discusion and perhaps vigourous discussion but firebombing and attempted murder is unacceptable.

You said it more eloquently than I could. Cheers.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
wn700driver
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):

They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits. Luckily no one got hurt

No, religion has limits.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I say we should be running daily Mohammed cartoons until they get the point.

We're past that level of politeness. It's time to break out the mohammed being auto-erotically axphisiated by a jewish lesbian dominatrix porn...

Quoting alberchico (Reply 6):

Great idea. Lets submit the staff of newspapers and magazines to death threats and acts of violence just for the sake of making a point

Sometimes fighting evil requires placing safety in a temporary back-seat. You want a bunch of religious personnel telling you what you can say? Really? If anyone needs to be afraid, it's them. I can't imagine the world tolerating this crap for much longer...



In all seriousness, I'm all for putting these dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, whack-jobs in their place. The only problem is one of artistic creativity... It's going to be mechanically hard for me to draw a poster of mohammed letting Richard Simmons be the Top Guy for tonight. And get the coloring right...

You know, just so this guy can something else to think about when he's awaiting trial...
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aloges
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:05 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 31):
In all seriousness, I'm all for putting these dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, whack-jobs in their place.

I'm not sure that you realise how extremely disturbing that kind of generalisation is.
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LAXintl
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:10 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 28):
"Incendiary" in who's eyes?

Potentially to millions of Muslims globally, and to many others its simply bad taste and poor choice of subject to depict.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 29):
By your reasoning, the USA was perceived in the '90s to take action against some in the Muslim world leading to denunciations and fatwas against the USA, so 9/11 was justified and OK?

Sure, 9/11 did not happen in a vacuum. There were clearly world events that lead up to it. OBL stated his reasoning or grievances.



No one, neither the US as a nation, nor an individual cartoonist lives in a protective cocoon. For each act one engages in, there potentially are many domino's that could fall as a result.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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WarRI1
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:15 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
No one, neither the US as a nation, nor an individual cartoonist lives in a protective cocoon. For each act one engages in, there potentially are many domino's that could fall as a result.

There is a word that applies here. "Intimidation" Is that how we non-believers want to live? I do not.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:21 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 28):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
No, catch the guy, try him for arson and possibly attempted manslaughter and throw the (French) criminal code at him.

So trying to kill someone in with a "firebomb" is "manslaughter" in France!

I don´t know the French criminal code in detail, but I assume that arson coupled with endangering lives can be anything from attempted manslaugther to murder, depending if the perp knew that there was somebody inside the building and if he intended to kill him.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Springbok747
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:44 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 31):
I'm all for putting these dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, whack-jobs in their place.

Dude..I'm no fan of Islam (or any religion for that matter)..but this is pushing it...such a broad generalization is just nuts. Its like saying all Christians are pedophiles. Some of my colleagues and friends are Muslims..and they are the most modern and generous people (with respect to their outlook or how they behave with others) I've come across. Such a broad generalization only undermines your credibility.

[Edited 2011-11-02 17:46:46]
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LAXintl
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:53 am

Call it intimidation of you wish.

However even 'free speech" has limits. In the US, the Supreme Court on multiple occasions found that speech does have limits.

For instance - the USC found that speech that create a dangerous situation, call for illegal acts, or provoke violence or incite can be limited. Also parties are not immune with being charged with libel and slander as well. In addition there are clear limits on time, place and manner of such purported free speech.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:00 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 37):
For instance - the USC found that speech that create a dangerous situation, call for illegal acts, or provoke violence or incite can be limited.

Case one: A cartoon showing a depiction of a certain religious leader "in congress" with a camel. Does that satisfy your condition? Should it be banned?

Case Two: A religious text that expressly orders its followers to subjugate or kill anyone who is not a follower, and certain ethnic/religious groups in particular. Does that satisfy your condition? Should it be banned?
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:00 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 37):
Call it intimidation of you wish.

It is a policy of intimidation being practiced here. If you yell fire in a crowded theatre, you go to jail. You do not get burned to death, be-headed, shot.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:16 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
Quoting stealthz (Reply 29):
By your reasoning, the USA was perceived in the '90s to take action against some in the Muslim world leading to denunciations and fatwas against the USA, so 9/11 was justified and OK?

Sure, 9/11 did not happen in a vacuum. There were clearly world events that lead up to it. OBL stated his reasoning or grievances.

So you are saying 9/11 was OK??

That may disturb some of those whose flag you display beside your name! (it disturbs me despite the different flag!)

Quoting aloges (Reply 32):
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 31):
In all seriousness, I'm all for putting these dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, whack-jobs in their place.

I'm not sure that you realise how extremely disturbing that kind of generalisation is.

It may be a disturbing generalisation of an entire culture but when applied to those that would firebomb a newspaper office over a cartoon, it fits like a glove!

[Edited 2011-11-02 18:19:00]
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:27 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 32):
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 31):
In all seriousness, I'm all for putting these dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, whack-jobs in their place.

I'm not sure that you realise how extremely disturbing that kind of generalisation is.
Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 36):
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 31):
I'm all for putting these dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, whack-jobs in their place.

Dude..I'm no fan of Islam (or any religion for that matter)..but this is pushing it...such a broad generalization is just nuts

I'm pretty sure he's calling people that firebomb/stab/murder people over this "dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, whack-jobs" not all Muslims, at least that's what I hope he meant
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:09 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 28):
Who should set those limits?
Quoting wn700driver (Reply 31):
No, religion has limits.

The people do, through their elected officials.

I'm not sure why people are saying that free speech doesn't have limits. It sure does. Yell "fire" in a crowded place when you know there isn't one, have people get injured/killed in the resulting stampede, and my bet is you'll be sued/prosecuted.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):

Potentially to millions of Muslims globally, and to many others its simply bad taste and poor choice of subject to depict.

The problem here is that EVERYONE does something that someone else thinks is in bad taste.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:33 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 42):
I'm not sure why people are saying that free speech doesn't have limits. It sure does. Yell "fire" in a crowded place when you know there isn't one, have people get injured/killed in the resulting stampede, and my bet is you'll be sued/prosecuted.

The concept of Freedom of Speech exists, not to protect pranksters who yell 'fire' in a theater, or pornography, or the ability to curse on TV, but to protect those who wish to challenge political and religious institutions.

I am a Christian - Roman Catholic to be precise. It offends me and upsets me when I see or hear people insult my faith, or the pope. I might argue with them, but I would fight to the death for their right to make their opinions heard.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:13 am

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
They really should know by now not to mess with this issue. Freedom of speech has limits. Luckily no one got hurt.

Unless it violated French law there is not limit of free speech issue here.

I'm sure fire-bombing is illegal and shouldn't be tolerated.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7):

If people want to be dumb enough to draw and publish such incendiary things go ahead.

You might not think so but that attitude will eventually destroy the first amendment, because there might be one day where an elected government in the US (or its supporters) might behave in this way it is ever slandered.

Would your response then be the same??

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 10):
The South Park Muhammad episode did just that. Poked fun at Jesus, Santa Claus and Muhammad. In the end they censored all that the Muhammad character said and never showed him in character form. They still got death threats.

Those guys should be in a small way American heroes because they use their right of free speech to mock all nonsense in the world and not just religion but pop culture and politics.

Also the failed Times Square bomber was allegedly targeting Viacom which owns Comedy Central about those episodes.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 31):
No, religion has limits.

  

It's not just displaying images of Muhammed, Salman Rushdie was on the run for many years, Theo Van Gough was killed for disagreeing with how Muslim women are treated. Also many young Muslim girls living is western coutries have paid with their lives for living in a place where they are treated as equals and wanted it.

Religion is still the cause of most of the bloodshed in human history!! Not because of the faith aspect but because there is no room for a debate and questioning it is frowned upon or not allowed. Which is why I line up with the likes of Bill Maher, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins.

I feel we need to assert against all of this religious crap and blantantly say this behaviour in not acceptable in the 21st century.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 43):
I am a Christian - Roman Catholic to be precise. It offends me and upsets me when I see or hear people insult my faith, or the pope. I might argue with them, but I would fight to the death for their right to make their opinions heard.

I don't agree on most things politically but I'm sure if the Catholics did this if Jesus or the Pope were slandered or mocked (happens alot with the current one now) you would be upon the first to condemn it.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 33):
Potentially to millions of Muslims globally, and to many others its simply bad taste and poor choice of subject to depict.

Honour killings deeply anger and offend me so when I hear about one does that mean I can firebomb a mosque??
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:38 am

Quoting alberchico (Thread starter):
Freedom of speech has limits. Luckily no one got hurt.

May be, but the French newwspaper was well within those limits. This is nothing else than the cartoon series about the pope.

A religion has to accept that and in this case it was obviously so that the simple announcement of printing an issue about Mohammed sparked the fire bombing. The issue was not even out on the streets.

Religions, especially Islam, are political and that means they can be the target of cartoons and jokes. Islam has to learn that when they want to be a part of the European, better, the western society. They have to adapt.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:40 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 32):

I'm not sure that you realise how extremely disturbing that kind of generalisation is.

I have no problem generalizing people that terrorize others to get what they want. Sometimes their cause is religion, sometimes not, but the fact is that this is behavior that cannot be tolerated in any free society.

This is not limited to those who kill in for the purposes of Islam. I know, for example, that fred phelps engages in a form of social terrorism here in the u.s. for the purposes of his religion too. I find it appalling that what they do is not officially labeled as some form of harassment rather than speech, as that is what it is. He may not be firebombing people (yet), but he is hardly better.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):

I'm pretty sure he's calling people that firebomb/stab/murder people over this "dead-criminal worshiping, 12th century thug, rape-victim stoning, whack-jobs" not all Muslims, at least that's what I hope he meant

Yeah, you are elucidating that better than I. For the record, I've studied mohammed, and there is nothing in that man's life that indicates the worthiness of any of this hero-worship. But that's not my problem here, as people can safely be enthralled be far worse.

The issue, as you put it, is that people who are harming other people, because they "dare" ridicule this guy are indeed stepping over the line, and I for one and truly sick and tired of appeasing that in the name of sensitivity or safety.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 42):
It sure does. Yell "fire" in a crowded place when you know there isn't one, have people get injured/killed in the resulting stampede, and my bet is you'll be sued/prosecuted.

Totally agree. You can add fraud to that as another well established no-no. But I also know that religious figures do not get a free pass and are not "above" criticism or ridicule or satire.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 44):

It's not just displaying images of Muhammed, Salman Rushdie was on the run for many years, Theo Van Gough was killed for disagreeing with how Muslim women are treated.

This is a particularly disturbing case as this persecution is officially sanctioned by a regime that not only takes huge sums of western $$$, but makes no apology for that infantile behavior.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:24 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Bukhari (59:369) - This recounts the murder of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, a Jewish poet who wrote verses about Muslims that Muhammad found insulting. He asked his followers, 'Who will rid me of this man?' and several volunteered. al-Ashraf was stabbed to death while fighting for his life.

The deception continues  

For the benefit of other members, I'll add some context to these quotes:

Ashraf was a Jewish tribal leader of Banu Nadir - A tribe that conspired against and attacked muslims on many occasions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Nadir

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Bukhari (4:241) - Those who mocked Muhammad at Mecca were killed after he had retaken the city and asserted his authority.

That quote is incorrect. Indicative of how you've ploughed the web looking for dirt. Here is the full quote:

Volume 1, Book 4, Number 241 :

Narrated by 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud

Once the Prophet was offering prayers at the Ka'ba. Abu Jahl was sitting with some of his companions. One of them said to the others, "Who amongst you will bring the abdominal contents (intestines, etc.) of a camel of Bani so and so and put it on the back of Muhammad, when he prostrates?" The most unfortunate of them got up and brought it. He waited till the Prophet prostrated and then placed it on his back between his shoulders. I was watching but could not do any thing. I wish I had some people with me to hold out against them. They started laughing and falling on one another. Allah's Apostle was in prostration and he did not lift his head up till Fatima (Prophet's daughter) came and threw that (camel's abdominal contents) away from his back. He raised his head and said thrice, "O Allah! Punish Quraish." So it was hard for Abu Jahl and his companions when the Prophet invoked Allah against them as they had a conviction that the prayers and invocations were accepted in this city (Mecca). The Prophet said, "O Allah! Punish Abu Jahl, 'Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalaf, and 'Uqba bin Al Mu'it (and he mentioned the seventh whose name I cannot recall). By Allah in Whose Hands my life is, I saw the dead bodies of those persons who were counted by Allah's Apostle in the Qalib (one of the wells) of Badr .

The men in question were killed in battle, not murdered as you insinuated.

For someone who supposedly received instruction under Jesuits (some of the best teachers in my experience), you're ramblings on Islam are remarkably xenophobic and ignorant!

If you're interested in enlightening yourself on muslim-jesuit history, the following scholarly book would be a good starting point:

Shore, P., 2007. Jesuits and the Politics of Religious Pluralism in Eighteenth-Century Transylvania: Culture, Politics and Religion, 1693–1773. Aldershot: Ashgate in assoc. with Institutum Historicum Societatis Iesu (Rome)
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:50 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 43):
The concept of Freedom of Speech exists, not to protect pranksters who yell 'fire' in a theater, or pornography, or the ability to curse on TV, but to protect those who wish to challenge political and religious institutions.

Concepts are well and good, but 200+ years and umpteen Supreme Court cases later, bounds have certainly been established for what would be called "free speech". The Constitution itself is intentionally vague about many things.

I just think it's inaccurate to say that there are no limits on freedom of speech.

The last part in the wording of the 1st Amendment mentions political institutions. And the first two (grammatical) clauses mention religion.

But in between, there's this part:

or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;

...that doesn't necessarily specifically relate to governmental or religious speech.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 43):
I am a Christian - Roman Catholic to be precise. It offends me and upsets me when I see or hear people insult my faith, or the pope. I might argue with them, but I would fight to the death for their right to make their opinions heard.

Understood, and my point was absolutely not counter to that. In fact, I completely agree with you, even though I'm not religious at all.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:52 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 40):
So you are saying 9/11 was OK??

I'm not sure what 9/11 has to do with this, or why you keep bringing it up.

But yes, there is cause and effect in the world. It appears if you take people at their word, that 9/11 was a reaction to the policy and actions the US was pursuing in the globe in the years prior.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 44):
Would your response then be the same??

I fully support the US Supreme Court interpretation that there are limits in freedom of speech and the First Amendment.

The Constitution is not carte-blanche to act stupid, or do or say anything you wish with impunity.

More specifically every action we take has a potential reaction. One needs to be mindful of such outcomes.
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RE: French Paper Firebombed For Depicting Muhammed...

Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:38 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 45):
This is not limited to those who kill in for the purposes of Islam. I know, for example, that fred phelps engages in a form of social terrorism here in the u.s. for the purposes of his religion too.

He is just a moron who runs his mouth and all we can do is ignore him and do what Jesus says and "Turn the other cheek". The supreme court agreed that his actions even though are completely reprehensible are not in violation of the 1st amendment.

Punching him in the face even though he deserves it is still assault which is a crime.

Go to Canada and the UK though this would classify as hate speech and could potentially be subject to prosecution.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 48):
I fully support the US Supreme Court interpretation that there are limits in freedom of speech and the First Amendment.

Yes but satire in this manner wouldn't be deemed a restriction to it and you know that.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 48):
More specifically every action we take has a potential reaction. One needs to be mindful of such outcomes.

It still doesn't justify this kind of illegal behaviour as retaliation.
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