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Nypd Out Of Control?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:35 pm

I'm sure many of you have heard of the latest ''NYPD ticketing scandal''. New York City police officers have to fulfill supervisor imposed quotas and face demotion if they don't fulfill them and are rewarded with higher evaluations, promotions and bonuses if they exceed said quotas. As a result of this incentivizing of arresting people, a sub culture of corruption and crime has proliferated.

Several NYPD officers have been arrested by the feds for cases of smuggling guns, smuggling illegal cigarettes, ticketing people and even planting drugs on innocent people.

1.) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ent-people-meet-arrest-quotas.html

2.) http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...icted-of-planting-crack-on-couple/

3.) http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/...igate-nypds-culture-of-corruption/

4.) http://www.politickerny.com/2011/10/...s-indictments-and-police-protests/

I assume most members of this board are white, but the question remains: Do you still feel safe in New York?

[Edited 2011-11-06 06:51:04]
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STT757
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:01 pm

Quoting something (Thread starter):
Do you still feel safe in New York?

Your kiding right? There are over 35,000 NYPD officers and 3,500 auxilary officers. These "scandal's" you bringing up accounts for a couple dozen officers, out of 40,000. As for the question of safety, I feel safer in New York City than any other city in the US.

The media in the UK is reporting what a couple dozen officers are doing wrong, where is the reporting on what the other 39,900 officers are doing right?
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alberchico
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:08 pm

Well crime is slowly going up in NY but we have a large part of the police force tied up in anti-terrorism . The new WTC complex will have its own precinct with almost 700 cops assigned to it, which is ridiculous considering the heavy security presence that the downtown wall street area already has. I really hate the whole ''just helping a friend out'' regarding tickets. This article explains the rally that some had to defend those charged with the offenses...


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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
Your kiding right? There are over 35,000 NYPD officers and 3,500 auxilary officers. These "scandal's" you bringing up accounts for a couple dozen officers, out of 40,000. As for the question of safety, I feel safer in New York City than any other city in the US.

The media in the UK is reporting what a couple dozen officers are doing wrong, where is the reporting on what the other 39,900 officers are doing right?

These quotas are imposed on all officers. A few officers may have been caught, but how many haven't? If you are forced to arrest people to fill up a certain quote or face demotion, then what is your alternative? I wouldn't even have paid attention to this article if it, had it just been that, a few cops. But these orders have been rubber stamped by the mayor himself. The corruption therefore lies with the NYPD, not with the individual cops.
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STT757
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:04 pm

Quoting something (Reply 3):
The corruption therefore lies with the NYPD, not with the individual cops.

Nonsense, some people were over zealous for a promotion.
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seb146
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:21 pm

Quoting something (Reply 3):
If you are forced to arrest people to fill up a certain quote or face demotion, then what is your alternative?

In San Francisco, parking tickets lie with the transportation department, not the police, as I understand. A few weeks ago, SFMTA were handing out tickets without checking the meter time or for a parking permit or anything. Just writing tickets. Many of them were thrown out. I suspect SFMTA ordered a quota as well. I think that time and money could be better spent actually looking for legitimate offenders or cleaning up Muni.
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GuitrThree
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:20 am

Quoting something (Thread starter):
I assume most members of this board are white

So what does this have to do with anything?
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WarRI1
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:28 am

To be human, is to be good, bad, generous, greedy, honest, crooked, smart, stupid, loving, hating, all the human good things, and bad things. We cannot condemn all, for a few who need condemning, and prison.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:38 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
We cannot condemn all, for a few who need condemning, and prison.

   There are many fine NYPD officers whose reputation will suffer because of a bad few. Corruption needs to be weeded out. Don't forget, the NYPD has come a far way since decades ago (read about the Knapp Commission!)
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StuckInCA
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:03 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
These "scandal's" you bringing up accounts for a couple dozen officers, out of 40,000.

A few dozen is a few dozen too many though.
 
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:07 am

Theoretically, you need a strong and honest Internal Affairs bureau. If police are not policed, they will become super-strength criminals wearing badges. That is theory. But when people like NYPD invoke 9/11 and refuse to be overseen, they will eventually go criminal, or be intimidated/pushed out/killed by those who have gone corrupt. Either you have rule of law or you don't. Charisma or hero status is not a replacement for law.
 
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:10 am

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 9):
A few dozen is a few dozen too many though.

In a perfect world, yes it would be. By a huge majority, they are honest people, just doing an unpleasant job, dealing with unpleasant people mostly. I remember it well, when they need you, they love you, when they do not, watch out.
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:09 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 6):
Quoting something (Thread starter):
I assume most members of this board are white

So what does this have to do with anything?

The article states that it was predominantly hispanic and black male who had drugs planted on them and got arrested unlawfully. I would not imagine a middle aged, white male in Manhattan to encounter the same issues.
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:15 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):
In a perfect world, yes it would be. By a huge majority, they are honest people, just doing an unpleasant job, dealing with unpleasant people mostly. I remember it well, when they need you, they love you, when they do not, watch out.

But this has nothing to do with ''a few black sheep''. We are not talking about a few cops who did something they shouldn't have done, we are talking about a system wide corruption scheme here. They officers in the one article don't even deny the allegations but are even justifying them (''You help friends out.. that's what you do in every business..'').

But more pervertedly, these quotas that cops have to fulfill, and that urges them to think of ways to fulfill them in the first place, are imposed on them by their supervisors and rubber stamped by the mayor. Every single NYPD will to a greater or lesser degree be guilty of this, or they'd face demotion and pay cuts. The entire institution rewards bads cops, and punishes good cops. The NYPD's objetive is not primarily to make New York a safer place, but to make money writing as many tickets, arresting as many people as possible.
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ltbewr
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:26 pm

While the NYPD is considered to be one of the best city police forces in the USA, it has serious problems. One of the most serious is caused by the 'Copstat' database, which is designed to collect information as to patterns of crime, noting hot spots and where to direct more police but is abused in various ways.Far too often it is used to determine promotions, placement of senior management officers and can cause excesses or under policing.

Copstat, developed over 20 years ago in NY City, as with any database has the GIGO (garbage in - garbage out) problem. A series of articles in the Village Voice in late 2010 and earlier this year, noted how some serious crimes, including sexual assault crimes and robbery, are downgraded to prevent the Copstat numbers from making the precincts and it's management officers look bad. In one precinct, it missed patterns of a serial rapist, with far too many women suffering, too many victims not getting fair justice for other crimes against them.

A change needs to be done on the use of Copstat, how data enters it, that it not become abused and in turn cause more corruption problems than it is supposed to prevent.
 
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:01 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 9):
A few dozen is a few dozen too many though.

Statistically it's not.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:51 pm

Quoting something (Reply 13):
these quotas that cops have to fulfill

Many agencies have quotas and rarely do I hear of problems. Never heard of arrest quotas though. This is an egregious violation and these officers should be dealt with accordingly, and the NYPD leaders should take steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. But beyond that, I don't see this as a earth-shattering event. Hiccups happen all the time, and of course the NYPD will have more corruption than others because it is one of the largest police forces in the world. The need to improve, and I'm sure they will correct this
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:43 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Hiccups happen all the time

But with all due respect, do you consider a cop planting crack on a guy to fill his monthly arrest quota a ''hiccup'' ?
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:19 pm

Quoting something (Reply 17):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Hiccups happen all the time

But with all due respect, do you consider a cop planting crack on a guy to fill his monthly arrest quota a ''hiccup'' ?

Not to the police officer, who should be disciplined accordingly (IMO should never be a cop again.) Hiccup refers to the supervisors. Again, those above the corrupt officers that new about it should be held very accountable (perhaps lose their job depending in their involvement.) But those above the corruption that didn't know should also be held accountable--not crucified or villain-ified, but relieve the *** chewing and be watched--actions must be taken on the higher-ups part. If corruption continues to occur widespread, replace them/have another commission put in place/etc. I was just answering your question:

Quoting something (Thread starter):
Nypd Out Of Control?

No, not in my opinion. They've had problems but they work to fix them. Hiccups refer to the problems occurring and being fixed, no supervisor can stop everything. Again, the NYPD is huge, they can still theoretically have a lower rate of corruption and have more incidents (not saying this is the case.) Read into the Knapp Commission, it's pretty interesting. That was a time when the NYPD was really out of control
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:41 am

Quoting something (Reply 13):
But this has nothing to do with ''a few black sheep''. We are not talking about a few cops who did something they shouldn't have done, we are talking about a system wide corruption scheme here. They officers in the one article don't even deny the allegations but are even justifying them (''You help friends out.. that's what you do in every business..'').

My point is there are about 680 thousand Police Officers in the US, no federal officers being counted. You cannot place blanket blame on that many, for the actions of a few thousand nationwide.
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BN747
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:58 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 2):
Well crime is slowly going up in NY but we have a large part of the police force tied up in anti-terrorism

And it will continue to increase, mathematics suggest it, ....as population increase, so will the numbers of thefts, rapes, etc..

People will not behave better because their are more of them..they behave worse.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
Corruption needs to be weeded out.

THAT..will never happen, Google up how many NYPD - Corruption stories have been released over the decades..going back to Boss Tweed to the Serpico escapade to past drug/crime rings run by the cops. They don't quit with they get busted..they lie low and return with a new innovative plan to do it all again. But said we need Police services, sadly, the screening process will always fail.

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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:09 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
Corruption needs to be weeded out.

THAT..will never happen,

Corruption, when found, needs to be weeded out.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
They don't quit with they get busted

Who is "they"?

Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
they lie low and return with a new innovative plan to do it all agai

I never said the system was anywhere near perfect, if there are repeat offenders, that is a big problem and should be dealt with...

Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
the screening process will always fail.

I think you're being a bit harsh on police. There is a fair share of bad police, too many IMO, but the majority of cops out there, I believe, are good. It is a stressful job and is very unappreciated, and this un-appreciation (coupled with too low of pay IMO) goes a long way for corruption. But most importantly, police agencies need to be policed--there are too much money, drugs, and guns around police to expect no corruption
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BN747
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:47 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
They don't quit with they get busted

Who is "they"?

The cops

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
Corruption needs to be weeded out.

THAT..will never happen,

Corruption, when found, needs to be weeded out.

It gets water thrown on it, some bad cops actually go to jail, but other ones step in...it never ends, thsi has been going on before you were born, before I was born, before there was a United States of America. It'll continue after we're both gone...it's human nature combined with power and greed on a somewhat low level for the most part.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
they lie low and return with a new innovative plan to do it all agai

I never said the system was anywhere near perfect, if there are repeat offenders, that is a big problem and should be dealt with...

That's what I meant by we need Police services, we certainly can't police ourselves. But as we fill the police uniforms, many times we just need a body - enter the guy who has no business wearing a badge. Or the type who get's in .. learns the system..and figures out a way to manipulate it for financial gain and other vises. That'll never change.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
the screening process will always fail.

I think you're being a bit harsh on police. There is a fair share of bad police, too many IMO, but the majority of cops out there, I believe, are good. It is a stressful job and is very unappreciated, and this un-appreciation (coupled with too low of pay IMO) goes a long way for corruption. But most importantly, police agencies need to be policed--there are too much money, drugs, and guns around police to expect no corruption

I'm in 100% agreement with no 'if ands or buts'...

However you're failing to understand 'the needs' of the system actually enables the recruitment of bad cops..that's why it won't end. Look at the history police services..it's not pretty. And neither is the job we ask of them (with most of their time being wasted on stupid and silly $hit! Like domestic violence or abuse or worse this..

Of 50,000 Marijuana Arrests In New York City A Year, Most Are Black And Hispanic Men

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...00-marijuana-arrest_n_1078023.html

There are more arrests for low-level pot possession in New York City – about 50,000 a year – than any other crime, accounting for about one of every seven cases that turn up in criminal courts.

It's a phenomenon that has persisted despite more leniency toward marijuana use – the state loosened its marijuana-possession laws more than 30 years ago.

Critics say the deluge has been driven in part by the New York Police Department's strategy of stopping people and frisking those whom police say meet crime suspects' descriptions. More than a half a million people, mostly black and Hispanic men, were stopped last year – unfair targets, critics say. About 10 percent of stops result in arrests.


...it just doesn't end...



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DeltaMD90
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:03 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):

For once, we are in agreement!  
Quoting BN747 (Reply 22):
Of 50,000 Marijuana Arrests In New York City A Year, Most Are Black And Hispanic Men

This highlights a few bigger problems--the war on drugs (dismal failure and a violation of our liberties IMO,) income disparity for many minorities, and a biased court system--a lot of the bias is unintentional too, sadly. Tackle these problems and the need to police the police becomes less and less!

I hate seeing racist cops. It really ruins it for all cops. During my internship with the police department, I did all I could to pick up any signs of racism or sexism... and to my surprise, I didn't see a trace of it! But their reputations as police was tarnished by other crooked cops--at one traffic stop, the cop I was with was accused of racism, sadly. I was with the officer all day, and these were the only minorities pulled over by him that day and was dealt with the very same way! But I digress.

Because I am pro-cop, I am often seen as an apologist, but on the contrary, I of all people want them to be uncorrupt the most because it hurts me to see all the good cops' reputations get tarnished!
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jcs17
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:08 am

Contrary to popular belief, the NYPD is more scared of you than you are of them. An officer can lose their salary, their pension, their life's work if a suit is brought against them -- and there are hundreds of lawyers who make their living suing the New York Police Department, the Fire Department, and the Port Authority and living on their "victims'" settlements. New York is a fraudsters paradise. There is a reason why officers dread going down to Occupy Wall Street. They don't have a someone on a Flip Cam documenting (and editing) an arrest. They want to keep everything safe, meanwhile the person who is videotaping wants to portray the officer in the worst light possible.

That poor police officer who works in Manhattan maybe makes $50k a year and lives in the most expensive city and region in the country. He's doing his job. Leave him alone.
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EDICHC
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:37 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 15):
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 9):
A few dozen is a few dozen too many though.

Statistically it's not.

To hell with statistics. One is one too many. This is a breach of trust by a public servant, actively perverting the course of justice. As others have pointed out, these are just the one's that have been caught.
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BN747
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:34 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
This highlights a few bigger problems--the war on drugs (dismal failure and a violation of our liberties IMO,) income disparity for many minorities, and a biased court system--a lot of the bias is unintentional too, sadly. Tackle these problems and the need to police the police becomes less and less!

The point here is selective enforcement, everyone in NYC knows that tons of non-minorities are smoking up a storm from east village to upper east side and all over every borough of NYC...and the cops over look these meager violations in these areas of prestige.

But we'll always need policing because we simply cannot police or should I say...control ourselves.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
I hate seeing racist cops. It really ruins it for all cops.

And because of the 'group' mentality in which cops thrive, it's easy to spread.. it's difficult to combat from within.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23):
I hate seeing racist cops. It really ruins it for all cops. During my internship with the police department, I did all I could to pick up any signs of racism or sexism... and to my surprise, I didn't see a trace of it! But their reputations as police was tarnished by other crooked cops--at one traffic stop, the cop I was with was accused of racism, sadly. I was with the officer all day, and these were the only minorities pulled over by him that day and was dealt with the very same way! But I digress.

Because I am pro-cop, I am often seen as an apologist, but on the contrary, I of all people want them to be uncorrupt the most because it hurts me to see all the good cops' reputations get tarnished!

I hate racist cops as well and do know they exist (as does any right thinking person). But I am also a realist and realize that not just anyone would be or would want to be a cop. It seems all the wrong the guys 'want to be cops' (aka the last guy that should have his hand on any kind of weapon) - but in truth, a lot of those types actually do mature and turn into decent guys/cops - except the few who take bonehead decisions too far and places their respectively departments and unions into a divide against the public they're suppose to protect...and the right choice is not always made. Nonetheless,in as much as I despise the unseen racist ones..I feel bad for the good ones who get caught up against bogus racist charges by calculating minorities who know how to target and manipulate the system. And usually they'll target a decent well meaning guy while the true racist cop gets away - then when the former decent guy takes a bit of a racist slant as a defense mechanism... you sort of can't blame him. I've also seen too many decent cops stand by in control - as a dumbass married or partnered couple in a drunken craze go after each other ... and I look at the cops faces and you can see them asking themselves 'how much more of these can I deal with?' It takes a lot of patience to do what they do.


To you DeltaMD90, you're too young to be looking for racist cops (to actually do anything about it leave them be) , as much as it may bother you.. get some stripes and bars on your sleeves and collars before you tray to take on a problem that's been there long before you and and that is much bigger than you. Believe it or not racism has a funny way of returning at the worse possible moment to to really damage the person consumed by it. Yes many racist cops have gotten away with it... but more and more are getting busted as well, but it'll take care of itself. Part of the path to promotion is hanging back and gathering intel on who's who and how all the parts jive and come together. .. and that takes months to years to achieve. Once you're in the position to push things around, you can then set the tone as to 'how things will be done on your crew'.

BN747
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Flighty
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:07 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 26):
and the cops over look these meager violations in these areas of prestige.

Certain areas have no violent crime and no police calls. Those areas will naturally be overlooked in favor of areas where the police are dispatched (ie called by citizens) to address gang violence, street beatings, robberies, open drug markets, murders etc.
 
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RE: Nypd Out Of Control?

Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:14 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 26):
and the cops over look these meager violations in these areas of prestige.

Certain areas have no violent crime and no police calls. Those areas will naturally be overlooked in favor of areas where the police are dispatched (ie called by citizens) to address gang violence, street beatings, robberies, open drug markets, murders etc

That has nothing to do with it and those areas certainly would qualify as an open drug drug market - more so on the level of quantity qualifying any given take as a 'intent to distribute' bust. Not to familiar with the layout of New York City are you? Everything you just described is an illusion on your part with regard to the many areas of Metro NYC. That observation would not even hold water in the geographical opposite..in the vastly spread out Los Angeles.

BN747
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