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stasisLAX
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Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:05 am

2012 Cadillac XTS (Official GM Photo)


Cadillac published photos of its production version of its new 2013 XTS model on its website, just ahead of the Los Angeles Auto Show. The new XTS should be in dealerships by spring 2012

The 2013 Cadillac XTS will be a "stretch" Epsilon (called E2 within GM) platform based sedan - a larger and more luxurious sedan than the "regular" Epsilon-based Buick LaCrosse and Chevy Malibu. The new XTS, Buick Regal, and the next-generation Chevy Impala are built in Canada --due to the fact that GM's Oshawa assembly plant has greater flexibility for building vehicles of different types and sizes. That's especially important now as GM needs to be able to juggle and adjust its production to meet with rapidly changing market demand and changing Federal Government fuel economy standards - and gasoline costs.

GM's E2 architecture itself, which comes in three basic sizes. The 2013 Cadillac XTS is designed on the largest variation, as is fitting new flagship car for GM. The Regal uses the smallest version of the Epsilon platform, the LaCrosse and next-generation Impala the mid-sized Epsilon platform. If Saab somehow survives as a manufacturer, the new 9-5 sedan is the "platform mate" of the XTS as it also utilized the "E2" platform. All Epsilon platforms are engineered to accommodate front-wheel-drive OR all-wheel-drive powertrains, so expect the 2013 Cadillac XTS to offer those choices.

However, the E2 platform cannot accommodate a V8 engine unfortunately, so look for the 2013 Cadillac XTS to come with the top-line LaCrosse option, a 3.6-liter V6 with direct fuel injection. It is rumored that this engined will be tuned for XTS duty, adding 20 horsepower and additional torque over Buick's version - which will be needed due to the Cadillac's greater weight. The sole transmission will be the same 6-speed automatic used by Buick. There is also rumors that a hybrid version of the XTS will also be available, but may be delayed in appearing in the marketplace until sometime next year. There is also a turbocharged version of the XTS' V6 engine rumored to be in the wings, as Lincoln offered a twin-turbo "Ecoboost" V6 in its current MKS sedan - and higher output motors are also offered by the Lexus LS and the Hyundai Genesis - and Daimler and BMW.

Now, Cadillac senior management has leaked to the automotive that they are moving forward with plans for a "true flagship" sedan, complete with a full-sized rear-wheel drive (and all-wheel drive) platform and at least a twin-turbo V6 - and a V8 remains a possiblity. The recent (huge) Ciel concept car is rumored to strongly hint at the upcoming "Flagship" that is aimed at the Mercedes S-class and BMW 7-series buyers market. However, this model is still at least 3 model years away.

As a side note - Ford's Lincoln division is also said to be working on a RWD flagship sedan, aimed at the same market as this Cadillac, to slot in above the current (underachieving) MKS sedan. Ford, recently quite profitable, is said to now have enough available funding to support the engineering and development of a RWD "Continental" (please call it that, Lincoln). It is rumored that this "Continental" will be based on a heavily revised version of the Mustang platform - meaning that a V8 engine is probably in the cards. Of course, if Ford was VERY smart, they would find a way to keep the Aussie Ford Falcon as a RWD sedan (with a V8, please) and share the architecture with Lincoln to keep unit costs down. We shall see!

[Edited 2011-11-14 21:14:05]

[Edited 2011-11-14 21:29:59]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Superfly
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:17 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
the E2 platform cannot accommodate a V8 engine unfortunately, so look for the 2013 Cadillac XTS to come with the top-line LaCrosse option, a 3.6-liter V6 with direct fuel injection.

Why did Cadillac even bother?
Bring back the Concorde
 
sccutler
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:17 am

GM and Ford would both be well-advised to solicit assistance from their crafty, agile and creative Australian operations.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
srqmuc
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:08 am

Looks like a Opel Insignia to me. I know that Cadillac used to be a premium brand in the US but I certainly wouldn't pay premium BMW or Mercedes prices.

It looks neat, though! If the price is right, why not?
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:29 pm

Saw these a week or so ago.

Not to bad. Cadillac is *finally* designing cars that where done with something other than a ruler.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:13 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Of course, if Ford was VERY smart, they would find a way to keep the Aussie Ford Falcon as a RWD sedan (with a V8, please) and share the architecture with Lincoln to keep unit costs down. We shall see!

The RWD Aussie Falcon is dead, the current model will be the last RWD Falcon, it also looks like the next Commodore will also be the last RWD Aussie Commodore as well, they don't sell well, the market for cars like this is drying up, so why make something that the vast majority of people don't want to satisfy a few, not good economics.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Why did Cadillac even bother?

Because V8's are no longer wanted by most people, the main market for this car will be North America, if they think they won't sell enough V8's to cover the cost of the engineering changes to fit in a V8 why bother; the other market will most likely be China and they tax the crap out of cars with more than 6 cylinders so no point in developing it is there?

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
The recent (huge) Ciel concept car is rumored to strongly hint at the upcoming "Flagship" that is aimed at the Mercedes S-class and BMW 7-series buyers market. However, this model is still at least 3 model years away.

I hope GM build the Ciel, I thought it was a great looking car, hopefully they don't sell it to funeral homes and limo companies, that would be a tragedy. What would be enev cooler would be to make this into an ultra bespoke, handbuild flagship to challenge the RR Phanton, Maybach and Mulsanne but at 7 series, A8 & S Class prices.
 
Charles79
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:47 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 4):
Cadillac is *finally* designing cars that where done with something other than a ruler.

My first reaction as well! I absolutely can't stand the looks of the current CTS, SRX, Escalade, et al, with all those angular shapes and straight lines. At least this car has some curves to break up the monotony of straight lines.

That said, I'm not convinced it's enough to lure Audi/BMW/Mercedes-Benz buyers. Even more troubling, I don't think they can extract the same premiums as the Germans do. Why? I see two main cons:

- The name - Cadillac has diluted its image with these alpha-numeric labels for their cars. In the German brands the nomenclature actually has some meaning behind it (BMW has Series, Mercedes has classes). Either Cadillac needs to come with a nomenclature that works for them in establishing a "brand" (e.g., buyers buy E-Classes or talk about their 5-Series) or else go back to using real names. Lexus and Infiniti learned this as well and now people can place an RX or a G in the marketplace, knowing exactly what those letters mean. With Cadillac we went from STS to DTS to CTS to now XTS...no pattern in here, nothing unique.

- The platform - essentially they are trying to use a non-so premium platform in a car with a premium sticker. It could probably work for the price point up to and including a 3-Series/C-Class/A4/ES/G competitor but once you cross that barrier buyers will expect a more sophisticated platform. I don't think it has to be RWD necessarily (Audi has found GREAT success without RWD platforms in the A4 for instance) but a bespoke platform for premium cars allows you to tailor the suspension settings, the body reflexes, and the way the car behaves. Perhaps the marketplace won't have a problem with it, particularly if they sell it to the Florida/pensioner crowd (which is still a large base of customers). But it might limit Cadillac in offering a true AMG/M-Division/S-Line competitor if they decide to do an XTS-V, particularly without the possibility of adding a V-8.

I do see some pros besides the styling though:

-Price - if they keep it reasonably priced and full of kit then it could be considered a great value
-Brand recognition - driving a Cadillac still says you got money; as great as it is, I'm sure some people avoided the Hyundai Genesis because of the badge on the bonnet.
-Interior - from concept photos it looks like it will have competitive finishes inside. If the LaCrosse is any indication, GM can indeed design a good interior with the proper ambience.
-Availability - I'm guessing that there are still parts of the country where there's a Cadillac dealer with no direct competition from the other luxury brands.
-It's American - while some people won't buy it because of past experiences with GM/American cars or because of the much-publicized bailout, some people do want to buy an American car. If that's the case, this will be the only viable option (the Lincoln MKS is struggling as it is and won't be a direct competitor of this car and the Chrysler 300 might be perceived as not being exclusive enough).

I certainly look forward to see the market's reaction to this car. It has been much anticipated.
 
Flighty
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:45 pm

It kind of reminds me of the Catera from 1995. Actually the back of the Catera was better looking.

GM has very good (if cautious) engineering. But this isn't a classic Cadillac the way people over age 25 remember them. And poeple over 25 purchase probably >99% of Cadillacs.

Hard to know what they are selling here. Does it look like Cadillac... no... kind of like an aardvark. Looks like it was designed for crash + pedestrian regulations... not low + wide the way Cadillac is traditionally known.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:28 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
But this isn't a classic Cadillac the way people over age 25 remember them. And poeple over 25 purchase probably >99% of Cadillacs.

That's like saying 99% of people who buy houses are over 25, I'd say the average Cadillac buyer is probably closer to 55 than they would be to 25.
 
BMI727
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
The 2013 Cadillac XTS is designed on the largest variation, as is fitting new flagship car for GM.

Front wheel drive flagship my ass.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Now, Cadillac senior management has leaked to the automotive that they are moving forward with plans for a "true flagship" sedan,

They've been doing that for the last decade, yet they keep coming out with crap like this.

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
The recent (huge) Ciel concept car is rumored to strongly hint at the upcoming "Flagship" that is aimed at the Mercedes S-class and BMW 7-series buyers market. However, this model is still at least 3 model years away.

They should have put the Ciel into production as a Continental GT/CL Class/6 Series competitor yesterday.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 2):
GM and Ford would both be well-advised to solicit assistance from their crafty, agile and creative Australian operations.

GM did and it was great. Then they stopped. It's like GM is a company determined to fail.

Quoting charles79 (Reply 6):
driving a Cadillac still says you got money;

...from your IRA.

By the way, did anyone see the rendering of the new C7 Corvette yesterday? It is a good looking car to be sure, but not original at all. It looks like a Ferrari GTR or Nissan 599, which are two good examples to draw from, but perhaps a bit disappointing for the new Vette.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
747400sp
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:05 pm

It looks to much like a La Cross, yes they are on the same platform, but Cadillacs should look better than any GM product. I guess this a GM MKS.   
 
Ken777
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Why did Cadillac even bother?

They need to replace the DeVille (now called the DTS) and it has to be smaller for better MPG numbers. I think calling a DeVille would have been wise, but some people in GM Marketing are apparently in fear of the initial cars from overseas and has to follow them. pity.

Quoting srqmuc (Reply 3):
Looks like a Opel Insignia to me.

GM has benefitted a lot from Opel engineering, as has Holden. We actually bought a Commodore (the second generation) that was from Opel. i thought it was going to be Caddy's original small car, which would have been very good. (As opposed to the Cameron, which was a POS.)

Overall I wish Opel had even more influence on GM in the US. I would have been more than happy if Opels were rebadged Saturn and assembled in the US.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 4):
Cadillac is *finally* designing cars that where done with something other than a ruler.

I'll agree with that.

Quoting charles79 (Reply 6):
The name - Cadillac has diluted its image with these alpha-numeric labels for their cars.

I'll really agree with that!

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
But this isn't a classic Cadillac the way people over age 25 remember them.

I believe that the XTS might be OK - especially if they get did of the WTF lettering. Give if a name people RECOGNIZE.

In terms of the car, "older" people look at things like ease of entry & exit, comfort (especially on trips), trunk room (for those trips) and how it drives. Since Caddy's are heavier than most cars the drive characteristics should be able to make their market happy. We'll just have to see.
 
Flighty
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:27 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 8):
I'd say the average Cadillac buyer is probably closer to 55 than they would be to 25.

Of course, so WTH are they doing. On the one hand, they fully understand the market for Chevy Camaro. The 1969 design (a modern classic, reborn) is what people want. Meanwhile, this kind of knowledge is lost on Cadillac.

Here's a Cadillac (note the proportions). This is a FWD car by the way.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-1960-1969/1967-Cadillac-Eldorado-4.jpg
 
Ken777
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:57 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
The 1969 design (a modern classic, reborn) is what people want.

Those were in the ending years for interesting designs for a lot of cars. From the mid-50s on the Detroit auto design world was pretty dynamic, with new designs hitting the market in September, really shaking up designs. In those days, however, a middle class family could but a new car every 2 or 3 years.
 
jcs17
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:50 am

What percent of the interior is made of faux-wood/metallic/plastic polymer?

What about the "leather?" How much was it made in the US?

Predictably, the car is piece of shit that will have no value in three years except in the gypsy cab world.

[Edited 2011-11-15 21:51:32]
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:30 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
Of course, so WTH are they doing. On the one hand, they fully understand the market for Chevy Camaro. The 1969 design (a modern classic, reborn) is what people want. Meanwhile, this kind of knowledge is lost on Cadillac.

Here's a Cadillac (note the proportions). This is a FWD car by the way.

And how many 55 year olds with money want to drive something like that, they like there German and Japanese executive and luxury cars, with a few exceptional wonderful people buying Jags. I don't think a traditional American style luxury car would cut it in todays market, especially when it will have to sell outside of the US in China and most likely Europe.
 
BMI727
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:48 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
And how many 55 year olds with money want to drive something like that, they like there German and Japanese executive and luxury cars,

Maybe they're too old to remember how mediocre Cadillac has become.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
I don't think a traditional American style luxury car would cut it in todays market, especially when it will have to sell outside of the US in China and most likely Europe.

   They need to make their cars more luxurious without being tacky, compact without being small, athletic without being hardcore, and generally the way luxury cars should be rather than continually trying to origami rather pedestrian cars into luxury offerings.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
Here's a Cadillac (note the proportions). This is a FWD car by the way.

Those cars were massive on the outside but not so big inside. That much heft should have more space on the inside.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
MAH4546
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:43 am

It's no coincidence that the only hit luxury cars to come out of America in the past decade have been the RWD Chrysler 300 and Cadillac CTS.

Are the people at GM really that dense? You need RWD in this segment. Even the critically acclaimed A6 has struggled in the U.S. with a FWD platform.
a.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:18 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
They need to make their cars more luxurious without being tacky, compact without being small, athletic without being hardcore, and generally the way luxury cars should be rather than continually trying to origami rather pedestrian cars into luxury offerings.

Basically what you're saying is that they need to bluild a Lexus LS600.


Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
It's no coincidence that the only hit luxury cars to come out of America in the past decade have been the RWD Chrysler 300 and Cadillac CTS.

I wouldn't call either a luxury car, the CTS is a mid level executive car, and the 300 is a family car with a fancy face.
 
Charles79
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:43 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
I wouldn't call either a luxury car, the CTS is a mid level executive car, and the 300 is a family car with a fancy face.

I think sometimes the definition of a "luxury" car is hard to pin down. What makes a car luxury can be defined differently by different sources - for different folks what dictates what is considered luxury can be the badge, the cost of acquisition, the exclusivity, the drivetrain (FWD vs RWD), the number of cylinders, the existence of wood (or wood-looking plastics!) inside the cabin, the equipment levels, the style, the dealer and after sales experience, and the performance.

My take on it is that what ultimately we are talking about are "premium cars", that is cars which accomplish something more than the traditional car and that perform well on nearly every category (style, braking, ride/handling, equipment levels, comfort, reliability, even safety) from a brand that provides a higher level of service. Consequently, the manufacturers can charge a "premium" for designing such a car. This is where Cadillac really needs to prove itself, in that what they are selling as the XTS indeed commands a premium over, say, a Buick LaCrosse or a Nissan Maxima.
 
BMI727
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:53 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
It's no coincidence that the only hit luxury cars to come out of America in the past decade have been the RWD Chrysler 300 and Cadillac CTS.

That's the first time I've seen the Chrysler 300 referred to as a luxury car.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
Basically what you're saying is that they need to bluild a Lexus LS600.

Yep. And that isn't a bad thing at all.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
mham001
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:52 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
By the way, did anyone see the rendering of the new C7 Corvette yesterday?

I didn't. But I did see the unveiling of a Daytona Prototype.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/15/2...tona-prototype-unveiled/#continued

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
The 1969 design (a modern classic, reborn) is what people want.

Careful now. Some twit from New Zealand is going to say it was just another American pos.
 
Mir
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:55 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 4):
Cadillac is *finally* designing cars that where done with something other than a ruler.

You say that like it's a good thing. The old angular designs might have been a bit jarring, but they were definitely distinctive and rather brash, which is everything a Cadillac should be. This just looks like someone put a Cadillac badge on a Buick. What's the point?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
rather than continually trying to origami rather pedestrian cars into luxury offerings.

That's a very good way of describing the US luxury car market for the past decade-plus.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Superfly
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:28 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
Those cars were massive on the outside but not so big inside. That much heft should have more space on the inside.

That 1967 Eldorado as well as the 1966 Oldsmobile it shared a platform with until 1978 had a flat floor.
Hardly any other front-drive car has a flat floor for front & rear passengers. That car seats 6 adults comfortably.
Bring back the Concorde
 
mham001
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:46 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Hardly any other front-drive car has a flat floor for front & rear passengers. That car seats 6 adults comfortably.

With room for 4 more in the trunk.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:27 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
Careful now. Some twit from New Zealand is going to say it was just another American pos.

Haha like that's a classic.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Hardly any other front-drive car has a flat floor for front & rear passengers. That car seats 6 adults comfortably.

You need to take a closer look at some modern FWD cars, loads of them have flat floors.
 
Superfly
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:03 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
You need to take a closer look at some modern FWD cars, loads of them have flat floors.

Not possible since 'loads of them' have console shift instead of column shift like the 1967 Cadillac Eldorado.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:45 pm

Think again

Fiat Multipla
Fiat Panda
Honda FR-V
Honda Odassey
Renault Scenic
Citroen Picasso
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:58 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
Think again

Fiat Multipla
Fiat Panda
Honda FR-V
Honda Odassey
Renault Scenic
Citroen Picasso

Not ONE of those above-listed vehicles are sold in the U.S. market and one or two of the listed examples aren't even CARS but rather minivans or SUV/CUVs.

'Fly was strictly referring about CARS (be it domestic or import) sold in the U.S. market.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
BMI727
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:19 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
I didn't. But I did see the unveiling of a Daytona Prototype.

I saw that too. Looks just like what Mosler has been making for years.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
That car seats 6 adults comfortably.

So it's basically an even more thirsty Escalade.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Stabilator
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:38 am

I'm no car expert, and sorry if this has been pointed out, but to me, it looks like a Buick with a Cadillac sticker on it.  

I still love the German cars, their styling just have an "it" factor...almost a sex appeal.
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
Superfly
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:40 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
So it's basically an even more thirsty Escalade.

Probably but who cares? That 1967 Eldorado is 10 times classier, stylish and elegant than the Escalade.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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Revelation
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:54 am

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 31):
I still love the German cars, their styling just have an "it" factor...almost a sex appeal.

Careful, now, that might lead you to a very bad place:

Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:36 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
Basically what you're saying is that they need to build a Lexus LS600.

No, they don't need to build a "beige-mobile" with forgettable styling; besides, the Hyundai Genesis is already quite successful doing that with the Genesis sedan - at about a 35 or 40 percent discount over the boring, overpriced slab-sided LS - which was really a Toyota Celsior in the home country. Thus, GM is far from the only manufacturer that platform/badge engineers its various brands. As for the XTS being a driven from the wrong end (front-wheel drive), the car is available as an all-wheel drive version, which is a good thing in the snow belt. A V6 engine (turbocharged or not) is the largest engine we'll see in most future Cadillacs - the hell with tradition, Cadillac has to deal with the idiots in Washington DC and their corporate fuel economy standards. Market demand be damned! V8 engines suck down too much fuel and leave too large a carbon footprint and all...

The Ciel inspired "flagship" will be expensive (perhaps even six-figures expen$ive) when it debuts in a few years - but Cadillac brand management seems to realize that they must have something SPECIAL to compete with the S-class type to attract the highly affluent buyer. Before folks dismiss this idea out of hand, please remember history. Lincoln was in very bad shape before the launch of the classic 1961 Continental sedan, and Lexus came out of brand ether when it was launch back in the early 1990s. Cadillac itself was on the ropes prior to the success launch of the CTS line (and its polarizing styling) and the elegant Seville redesign done in the early 90's (I have a soft spot in my heart for the Northstar powered Sevilles since my late mother owned one - polo green with buff leather interior)
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:14 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
Of course, so WTH are they doing. On the one hand, they fully understand the market for Chevy Camaro. The 1969 design (a modern classic, reborn) is what people want. Meanwhile, this kind of knowledge is lost on Cadillac.

Here's a Cadillac (note the proportions). This is a FWD car by the way.

Wow, at first I thought that post/picture were from Superfly. That Eldo design is timless.

The 2013 Caddy doesn't look too shabby. However, I thought the marque of Government Motors were abandoning FWD for the big and bawdy rear drivers. At least Caddy is trying to get away from the stodgy Buick Depends market with their recent designs. I remember not too long ago when Caddy commercials were aimed at the geriatric Republican golfing set. Anyone remember those horrible shitty commercials for Making Whoopy?
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Superfly
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:48 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 35):
Wow, at first I thought that post/picture were from Superfly. That Eldo design is timless.

Nah, the Eldorado that year is too small for me. It's a personal luxury coupe.
I'd prefer the full-sized Coupe deVille convertible or the Fleetwood Brougham sedan or Series Seventy Five which is a stretched version.


http://www.libertyoldtimers.com/1970ConvSanMateo/1970ConvRed001.jpg






Quoting zippyjet (Reply 35):
I remember not too long ago when Caddy commercials were aimed at the geriatric Republican golfing set.

...and I respect that crowd's taste in cars instead of the treehugging crowd or the plastic electric cars that Al Gore and Barack Hussein Obama want us to finance.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:31 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
'Fly was strictly referring about CARS (be it domestic or import) sold in the U.S. market.

No he said nothing about being sold in the US market.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 34):
which was really a Toyota Celsior in the home country.

But it was developed as a Lexus not a Celsior, it was first launched as a Lexus, it was only sold as a Celsior because Toyota didn't launch the Lexus brandname in the Japanese domestic market.

Back to the topic, the problem with what most of you guys hanker for is a type and style of car which new car buyers just don't want anymore, if people still wanted boat like Caddy's GM would still be making them, but they don't so GM doesn't.

[Edited 2011-11-16 23:34:29]
 
Superfly
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:52 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 37):
No he said nothing about being sold in the US market.

But that's what I meant since this is a discussion about a car being sold on the US market and I certainly wasn't discussing SUVs.
Yes we know its being sold in China as well.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 37):
if people still wanted boat like Caddy's GM would still be making them, but they don't so GM doesn't.

General Motors foolishly converted their full-sized sedan and wagon factory in Arlington, Texas in 1996 to make more full-sized SUVs. Also GM didn't invest a single penny in marketing for their full-sized sedans & wagons since the early 1980s. Yet the final years of their large V8, rear-drive sedans where exceeding CAFE standards and getting roughly the same MPG as smaller Honda Accords and Camry yet seated 6 adults (8 passengers for the wagons) comfortably, were putting out 260HP and ability to tow small boats & trailers. The final 3 years for the Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham as well as the Buick Roadmaster Estate Wagon were magnificent machines.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:19 am

Yes but did they sell enough of them to warrent keeping them, I guess we know the answer because they stopped making them.

Rather like what's starting to happen in Australia with the Commodore and Falcon, the market for large RWD sedans is contracting, the current generation RWD Falcon will be the last, the next generation Commodre will also be the last. The age of the cheap family RWD sedan and wagon is pretty much over.
 
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:37 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):
Yes but did they sell enough of them to warrent keeping them,

Read this part again;

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Also GM didn't invest a single penny in marketing for their full-sized sedans & wagons since the early 1980s.

How do you sell a vehicle in large numbers without marketing it? Hard to sell vehicles if many people aren't aware that it exist.
In 1990, Lincoln marketed the Town Car after it's re-skin for the 1990 model year and it sold very well and was Motor Trends Car of The Year. That was also a traditional full-sized, rear drive V8 sedan.
GM has made many foolish decisions over the years and thus needed a federal bailout.
Bring back the Concorde
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:44 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Yet the final years of their large V8, rear-drive sedans where exceeding CAFE standards

'Fly, I know you liked these cars (so do I) but the above-statement's not true.

The CAFE figure during the mid-90s was 27.5 mpg. A vehicle's CAFE mileage figure is essentially the equivalent of the EPA posted COMBINED figure which is a weighted average of the city/highway ratings. This combined figure will be shown on the windshield stickers starting with 2013 models. Displaying that number to the lay public could be a wake-up call with regards to showing everybody how ridiculous the upcoming more stringent CAFE standards really are.

That said, GM's V8s never AVERAGED 27.5 mpg (they may have gotten that on the highway); though the short-lived, trouble-prone diesels came close to averaging 25 mpg (EPA highway rating for those was 31 mpg).

EPA highway ratings vs. the CAFE figure for a particular vehicle/engine combo are 2 different animals.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
No he said nothing about being sold in the US market.

No offense, but now you're playing games. You've been around A.net long enough and knew darn well that 'Fly was referring to U.S. market. Besides, none of those vehicles you listed were as large as the Eldorado.

[Edited 2011-11-17 05:46:37]
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Ken777
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:31 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 14):
What percent of the interior is made of faux-wood/metallic/plastic polymer?

Does it real matter? Fake wood? As opposed to real wood that costs money and doesn't add to the car's comfort and driving characteristics.

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 14):
What about the "leather?" How much was it made in the US?

How many cows get pregnant in the US? Actually I liked the idea of using kangaroo leathers.  Wow!

And how many "German" cars are assembled in the US and what is their US content?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
And how many 55 year olds with money want to drive something like that,

A lot of Americans are rather abusive of their cars when it comes to maintenance. They don't want to spend the money needed for a German car. (My 68 BMW was a killer in that regard.)

And not everyone bows down to the Germans when it comes to cars. Or the "upper brands" at Toyota and Datsun.
 
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:53 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 40):
'Fly, I know you liked these cars (so do I) but the above-statement's not true.

Well they were pretty damn close and far more efficient than anything from Europe that put out that kind of power at that time.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 41):
Does it real matter? Fake wood? As opposed to real wood that costs money and doesn't add to the car's comfort and driving characteristics.

  
It's not like people scrape off the wooden layer from the dashboard of their BMW and throw it in to the fireplace to start a fire.


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 41):
And not everyone bows down to the Germans when it comes to cars.

  
German makes some decent cars but a lot of them are over-rated and just hype. They're ideal if you want to impress a gold-digger.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:01 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 39):
How do you sell a vehicle in large numbers without marketing it? Hard to sell vehicles if many people aren't aware that it exist.
In 1990, Lincoln marketed the Town Car after it's re-skin for the 1990 model year and it sold very well and was Motor Trends Car of The Year. That was also a traditional full-sized, rear drive V8 sedan.
GM has made many foolish decisions over the years and thus needed a federal bailout.

Large RWD luxury cars sell, large RWD family cars don't, GM realised the writing was on the wall before you did and cut them loose when they were no longer needed, I very much doubt building and marketing new ones would have saved GM, you need to stop thinking about the past and start thinking about today.

And where is the Town Car today, dumped, it was getting to old and without enough sales wasn't worth Fords time and money to replace.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 41):
A lot of Americans are rather abusive of their cars when it comes to maintenance. They don't want to spend the money needed for a German car. (My 68 BMW was a killer in that regard.)

Maybe that's Americans but I've only driven new German cars (Volvo V70 being the exception) for the last 6 years and have never had a single fault, not mechanical, not electrical, no trim falling off, no nothing not a single issue at all.
 
BMI727
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:55 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 41):
Does it real matter? Fake wood? As opposed to real wood that costs money and doesn't add to the car's comfort and driving characteristics.

Yes it does. A lot of it looks like crap.

And furthermore, it's about the message and image that it projects. Cadillac is supposed to be the standard of the world, but they won't even put real wood in the car. It would simply drive home the fact that they are a day late and a dollar short compared the the Germans and Japanese makes.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Superfly
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:45 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 40):
No offense, but now you're playing games.

You're right. He is playing games because when people explain a situation and or gives examples, he then results to making snide remarks and personal insults. There is a name for people like this but I wont use it here in the forums.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Yes it does. A lot of it looks like crap.

Does it really matter considering the real wood in cars today is such a tiny thin strip?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
Cadillac is supposed to be the standard of the world, but they won't even put real wood in the car.

Its Government Motors now so don't expect much.
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stasisLAX
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:11 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
Large RWD luxury cars sell, large RWD family cars don't, GM realised the writing was on the wall

   What GM and Ford (and Chrysler under Daimler management) discovered is that they could make HUGE profits on truck-based SUVs in the 1990's. And the former primary buyers preferemces moved to these huge high profit SUVs to replace their Caprices (to Tahoes), Devilles (to Escalades), and Crown Vics (to - god forbid - Excursions) because the SUVs gave these traditional buyers what the buyers wanted - V8 engines, huge body on frame construction to make them feel "safe", and a six foot in the air drivers seat so they could see over traffic (until the view was blocked by a couple million other SUVs).

And look what has happenned in the last couple of years - the SUV has fallen from grace, to be replaced by mostly 4 cylinder powered, more fuel efficient, and occassionally hybrid powered cute-Utes (think RAV4ish type of vehicles) and cross-over vehicles like the Chevy Traverse and the Ford Flex (what 'Fly and I used to call station wagons).

Buyers that want a driving experience, luxury features, with lots of room for passengers, status, and elegant styling - they are the target for the XTS, S-class, Genesis, 7-series, Infiniti M, and (methinks Cadillac's key competitor with the XTS) Lexus LS Sedan.(if the buyer wants an "sensory deprivation chamber" as a driving experience). Buyers tastes can change overnight, especially when an SUV starts costing Americans 100 bucks to fill the damn gas tank in a VERY bad economy.

[Edited 2011-11-17 23:14:43]

Cadillac XTS


[Edited 2011-11-17 23:22:02]

Oh, and tailfins (even little red LED ones) seem to have made a reappearance (see above)!!!


[Edited 2011-11-17 23:24:15]
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BMI727
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:45 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
Does it really matter considering the real wood in cars today is such a tiny thin strip?

Yes it does. When it comes to being the standard of the world, Cadillac only talks the talk.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 46):
Buyers that want a driving experience, luxury features, with lots of room for passengers, status, and elegant styling

Nobody interested in a driving experience will be buying the XTS. I bet that the XTS lags behind Lexus (GS and IS anyway) in that regard.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 46):
cross-over vehicles like the Chevy Traverse and the Ford Flex (what 'Fly and I used to call station wagons).

Those are only crossovers due to CAFE.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 46):
Oh, and tailfins (even little red LED ones) seem to have made a reappearance (see above)!!!

I don't care much for it. Looks too much like an MKS, and the CHMSL is far too large and obtrusive. On a related note, I don't think that car designers have made enough use of LEDs yet. They could come up with some really neat designs if they really tried, but nobody has really pushed the envelope yet. (McLaren and the new Mustang tail lights are pretty cool though)
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Polot
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:43 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 46):
Oh, and tailfins (even little red LED ones) seem to have made a reappearance (see above)!!!

They have been sneaking them in for a couple of years now. The CTS coupe and wagon have the subtle tailfins, can't remember with the SRX, but I think it has them too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 47):
I don't care much for it. Looks too much like an MKS, and the CHMSL is far too large and obtrusive. On a related note, I don't think that car designers have made enough use of LEDs yet. They could come up with some really neat designs if they really tried, but nobody has really pushed the envelope yet. (McLaren and the new Mustang tail lights are pretty cool though)

The really interesting stuff won't happen unto they go LED lights for every light and across every trim level. Right now car companies put them in housings that can also fit conventional lighting for lower trim levels.
 
747400sp
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RE: Cadillac Unveil 2013 Cadillac XTS

Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:48 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
Large RWD luxury cars sell, large RWD family cars don't, GM realised the writing was on the wall before you did and cut them loose when they were no longer needed, I very much doubt building and marketing new ones would have saved GM, you need to stop thinking about the past and start thinking about today.

And where is the Town Car today, dumped, it was getting to old and without enough sales wasn't worth Fords time and money to replace.





So what you call a Dodge Charger? The V-6 Charger competes with the Ford Taurus and Chevy Impala ( both FWD cars), yet it is RWD. Now can a Charger pull a boat, who knows, but if I have the money to buy a boat, I likely would buy a full size V-8 powered SUV, let say Nissan Armada.   


Back to the subject of the reply, Dodge Charger sold very well. You can see as many if not more, Chargers on the road as Honda Accords here in the Hampton Roads area. So may be, Superfly is not thinking in the past. The only reason the G-8 is not being sold today, see due to the GM company, that got the G-8 design, was cut from the GM line up. I believe, I read that Bob Luts wanted to bring back the G-8, in another form of GM car. I think the Maxima and Avalon, should go to RWD platforms.

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