MadameConcorde
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:43 pm

Originally Posted by Yahoo
Egyptian Military Using Nerve Gas on Protesters

Wednesday, 23 Nov 2011 06:44 AM
By Newsmax Wires

The Egyptian military has been using a banned chemical agent to deal with hundreds of thousands of protesters, according to several news sources.

At least 23 Egyptians have died and more than 1,700 have succumbed to a lethal gas military forces have been using during the past three days in clashes in and around Cairo's Tahrir Square.

link:
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/egy...3/id/418927?s=al&promo_code=D935-1

This will get worse before better and as we can see there's no outcry (yet) for the poor protesters like there was in Libya and Syria?

 Wow!
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BMI727
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:43 pm

Is this like that thing where people were supposedly, but not really, being lit on fire?  
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doug_or
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:11 pm

I'm not familiar with newsmax. Is it a reliable source?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
AR385
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:16 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
At least 23 Egyptians have died and more than 1,700 have succumbed to a lethal gas military forces have been using during the past three days in clashes in and around Cairo's Tahrir Square.

I don´t get that part. "1,700 have succumbed" so is that 1,723 killed then? If so this is the first time I´ve heard such numbers. Or does the verb "to succumb" also applies to being hurt?
 
MadameConcorde
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:19 pm

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 2):
I'm not familiar with newsmax. Is it a reliable source?

Newsmax may be an alternate/independent news source - now this is what the BBC (conventional news source) is saying

UN human rights chief Navi Pillay has condemned the "clearly excessive use of force" by Egypt's security forces during clashes with protesters.
Ms Pillay called for an independent inquiry into the deaths of at least 35 people since the weekend.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15854418

protesters were killed -I doubt tear gas kills people - never heard of that so it's got to be some other deadly gas
whatever way this is not good news.
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MadameConcorde
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:28 pm

Confirmed by El Baradei Twitter channel - even talking about live ammunition
so the information given by Newsmax is correct

@ElBaradei Mohamed ElBaradei
Tear gas with nerve agent & live ammunition being used against civilians in Tahrir. A massacre is taking place

and this link
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/ebf63e

 Wow!  

Raw Video: Egypt Protestors Clash With Police from Associated Press
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVwvbzlN_LY&feature=youtu.be

From Magnum agency
Unrest in Cairo Egypt revolution continues
http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?V...StoryDetail_VPage&pid=2K7O3RKB67E9

LIve blog from Cairo
Wednesday, November 23, 2011
#Tahrir : Day 5’s massacre
http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot.c...ronicles+%28Egyptian+chronicles%29

Live video feed from Tahrir Square
http://www.wivb.com/generic/video/cbs_news_video

@RuwaydaMustafah Ruwayda Mustafah
Protester gone into shock after tear-gas, viewer cautioned, disturbing video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXpPT3R4fwQ&feature=youtu.be

Ahdaf Soueif in Cairo: 'By early evening it was clear that this was Revolution II'
The novelist writes from Tahrir Square where the advice is to wear a gas mask and write your name on your arm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...eif-tahrir-square-egypt?CMP=twt_fd

[Edited 2011-11-23 14:16:23]
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Dreadnought
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:35 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
This will get worse before better and as we can see there's no outcry (yet) for the poor protesters like there was in Libya and Syria?

Why would there be an outcry? This is the government that the International community was so excited to usher in.
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cargolex
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 6):
This is the government that the International community was so excited to usher in.


Erm, not really. The "government" of Egypt at present is a military caretaker government, not an elected group. The protestors are upset that the military higher ups have been trying to punt democratic elections further into the future while clamping down on attempts to organize for or accelerate the timeline for those elections. The public believes the military does not want to transfer power. In a country where the last ruler used a military emergency to seize power for 29 years and the current military leaders have been almost as repressive as the man who they replaced, that's not such a wildly off base perception.

As for Newsmax, I wouldn't consider them such a reliable source.

[Edited 2011-11-23 15:55:52]
 
TheCommodore
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
The Egyptian military has been using a banned chemical agent to deal with hundreds of thousands of protesters, according to several news sources.

Yes indeed, an alarming escalation of counter violence by the caretaker regime.

A banned substance, that according to the Age Newspaper comes from the USA ?

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/egy...ary-nerve-gas/2011/11/23/id/418927
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Dreadnought
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:51 am

Quoting CargoLex (Reply 7):

Erm, not really. The "government" of Egypt at present is a military caretaker government, not an elected group.

Yes, really. Surely they did not expect an elected government to take over in the next few days. They pushed Mubarak out, hence they brought in the military junta that inevitably would take over. Many people warned about this happening back in January and February.

I'm not saying that Mubarak should have stayed in power. But he had promised not to stand in the next elections, which would have given an opportunity for a more orderly transfer of power. It's a question of, "Careful what you ask for - you might just get it."
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cargolex
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:14 am

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 9):
Yes, really.

Again, no.

You said:

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 6):
This is the government that the International community was so excited to usher in.

It clearly isn't. The international community was happy to see the end of the Mubarak regime, and eager to see honestly democratic elections take place in Egypt since 1924. This is specifically not "the government that the International Community was so excited to usher in."

It isn't even the government that the people within Egypt who fought for an end to the Mubarak regime wanted to see. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 9):
But he had promised not to stand in the next elections, which would have given an opportunity for a more orderly transfer of power.

I can't possibly see how that would have been anything less than simply waiting for the discontent to go away so that Mubarak could re-establish his hold on power. If Mubarak had done this, either he would have stayed in power and not yielded at all in the "elections" or eventually he'd have been murdered - and if anything, that would have led to an even less orderly situation.

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 9):
Surely they did not expect an elected government to take over in the next few days.

Hosni Mubarak stepped down on Feb. 11. Today is November 23rd (actually, it's already the 24th in Egypt). So rather than a few days, it's been ten months.

During that time, the military leaders have repeatedly resisted democratic reform and repeatedly, in some cases very haphazardly, cracked down on dissent (even on some people who were not dissenters at all). In that time, Egypt's economy has continued to worsen and one of it's key industries, tourism, has virtually evaporated.

They've got every right to agitate for democratic elections and every right to do it peacefully without being killed.
 
AR385
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:22 am

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 9):
which would have given an opportunity for a more orderly transfer of power.

Sure...to his son. Which in itself would have been pretty dodgy and had the potential for a lot of upheaval, because some of the higher military brass did not want him, due to the fact that he was not military. In fact, I believe the military were so keen to let Mubarak fall because they wanted to avoid a confrontation between themselves when the time came for Hosni Junior to seat in daddy´s throne. The solution was given to them in a silver platter. I don´t really believe they were ever concerned with "democracy" and those other Western niceties such as "human rights", "freedom of expression" and others.

Let´s hope this does not turn into another Tiannanmen.

[Edited 2011-11-23 19:36:26]
 
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Dreadnought
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Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:29 am

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 10):
It clearly isn't. The international community was happy to see the end of the Mubarak regime, and eager to see honestly democratic elections take place in Egypt since 1924. This is specifically not "the government that the International Community was so excited to usher in."

Yeah, they prefer Syria's regime.

http://www.unwatch.org/cms.asp?id=2750557&campaign_id=65378

Quote:
UNESCO elects Syria to human rights committees

GENEVA, Nov. 23 – UNESCO’s executive board, which includes the US, France, the UK and other Western democracies, unanimously elected Syria to a pair of committees – one dealing directly with human rights issues – even as the Bashar al-Assad regime maintains its campaign of violence against its own citizens.

The Arab group at UNESCO nominated Syria for the spots, and though the 58-member board approved the pick by consensus on Nov. 11, the agency has not yet posted the results on its website.
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cargolex
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:52 am

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 12):
Yeah, they prefer Syria's regime.

So one organization = entire international community. Riiight. If you took all the wiring out of a DC-10 and laid it out end to end, maybe it would stretch this far.

The international community has roundly condemned Syria and it's regime, to the point where it was suspended from the Arab league. UNESCO, which has been courting serious controversy for months, hardly represents the entire international community. In fact, even fellow UN-related organizations seem to be in direct contravention of UNESCO's flawed decision. This doesn't seem like they prefer Syria, does it:

http://turtlebay.foreignpolicy.com/p.../11/22/syria_faces_un_condemnation
 
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scbriml
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:18 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
This will get worse before better and as we can see there's no outcry (yet) for the poor protesters like there was in Libya and Syria?

Wait. You decry outside involvement in Libya and the overthrowing of the "legitimate government", but now you're calling for it in Egypt? I'm confused.
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MadameConcorde
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:20 pm

According to a report Tahrir tear gas to be linked to U.S. manufacturer. This same manufacturer was quoted by several sources after the events.

“Yes, America,” the male replied furiously. The throng murmured with unsurprised disdain. Like most gas canisters in Tahrir, one of his was noted with blue letters which review “Made in USA” and gimlet the name of the association which constructed it: Combined Tactical Systems, in Jamestown, PA.

http://www.magissue.com/tahrir-tear-...n=Feed%3A+magissue+%28Mag+Issue%29

 

Tahrir, How to deal with tear gas
Egypt is 1 of 5 nations that haven’t signed the Chemical Weapons Convention & are unhindered by restrictions on use of CS gas.
...
What is probably happening is several types of gas are being used, which makes it confusing.

http://democrati.net/2011/11/21/how-to-deal-with-tear-gas/

[Edited 2011-11-24 04:28:59]
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scbriml
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Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:29 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
According to a report Tahrir tear gas to be linked to U.S. manufacturer. This same manufacturer was quoted by several sources after the events.

Tear gas, as opposed to "nerve gas". Big difference.

Anyway, it'a all OK now because the Egyptian military has apologised.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15867535

Quote:
Egypt's ruling military has apologised for the deaths of about 35 protesters in clashes with police, amid continuing protests in Cairo and other cities.

The Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (Scaf) said it regretted "the deaths of martyrs from among Egypt's loyal sons".

Also, no mention in the article of "nerve gas" but claims of the use of live ammunition.

Quote:
Protesters have spoken of gunshots and injuries or deaths from live bullets, but Interior Minister Mansour el-Essawy said security forces were only firing tear gas.
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BMI727
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:38 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
According to a report Tahrir tear gas

Wait, now it's tear gas? You do realize that there is a difference between tear gas and nerve gas right? How anyone could not make the distinction is beyond me.  
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
linked to U.S. manufacturer.

Exports help the economy. Good for them.
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MadameConcorde
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:13 pm

Another day of protests in Cairo. Will it turn as violent?

Tahrir Square protests day six – in pictures

Egyptian troops have deployed barbed wire fences and barricades and concrete blocks to separate protesters and riot police in and around side streets leading from Cairo's Tahrir Square to the nearby interior ministry in a bid to prevent further violent clashes

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gall...r-square-egypt-protest-in-pictures

More pictures on this link (text is in arabic)
http://arabic.arabia.msn.com/gallery...D=515252&Num=3&catId=24&ref=twtpge

Medical Students and doctors making a human barrier at Muhammed mahmoud st.
http://yfrog.com/oe4udmj

Gassing the revolution: The US origins of Tahrir tears
The liberal use of US-manufactured tear gas on unarmed protesters in recent days has raised questions about its public health effects - and who is actually ordering its use
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/27537.aspx


  

[Edited 2011-11-24 09:13:36]
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scbriml
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Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:58 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 15):
Egypt is 1 of 5 nations that haven’t signed the Chemical Weapons Convention & are unhindered by restrictions on use of CS gas.

Misleading - that convention only covers the use of CS gas in a war. Its domestic use is not covered by any conventions and is, as such, largely legal.
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MadameConcorde
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:26 pm

Youtube video (in arabic) Uploaded by dmbahgat80 on Nov 23, 2011

Incredible footage from Mostafa Bahgat. Look how much shotgun they're firing at us

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9JmBTotCWQ&feature=youtu.be

 Wow!
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BMI727
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
Incredible footage from Mostafa Bahgat. Look how much shotgun they're firing at us

What a bunch of innocent, well behaved protesters.   And the shotgun is obviously loaded with less lethal ammo, probably less dangerous than the rocks being tossed, so I fail to see the injustice.
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DeltaMD90
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:46 pm

Oh tear gas!? That isn't bad at all. I mean it sucked when I had to go through the gas chamber but it is a far cry from some other gas. The question is whether these protests are legal and calm, or violent and crazy... If they are good protests then it's really a freedom of speech issue, if they are rowdy protests, shame on the protesters. Then again, there have been quite a few deaths...


Keep us informed. It doesn't seem as bad as the initial stories were making it. Good luck Egypt!
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MadameConcorde
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:18 pm

Tonight's live feed from Tahrir Square

h t t p://rt.c o m/o n-ai r/e g yp t-ta h rir-c las hes-li v e/

I had to put the blanks or the link wouldn't post.

There are a lot of people out there.

Tomorrow Friday is the Million Man March.
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cargolex
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:19 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 18):
Gassing the revolution: The US origins of Tahrir tears
The liberal use of US-manufactured tear gas on unarmed protesters in recent days has raised questions about its public health effects - and who is actually ordering its use

I'm going to have to echo the sentiments of others and point out that there's an enormous difference between Tear gas and "nerve gas."

Although harming the protesters is deplorable, the difference between Tear gas and Nerve gas is the difference between riot control and genocide.

Furthermore, the Tear gas may be US made, but that doesn't have any bearing on how the U.S. feels about the conflict. The Egyptian military uses weapons made in a vast array of countries - the U.S., Russia, Italy, Poland, the Czech Republic, the U.K., Germany, Spain, Belgium, even Switzerland. Where this equipment is made doesn't necessarily have any bearing on how these countries feel about the ongoing protests or about which way the government goes.
 
MadameConcorde
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Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:30 pm

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 24):
I'm going to have to echo the sentiments of others and point out that there's an enormous difference between Tear gas and "nerve gas."

I never heard of deaths from tear gas. There were 39 fatalities last night.
Not sure if they were all from gun shots.

Military Council head appoints former Prime Minister Kamal Ganzouri to form new government - al Jazeera

The atmosphere seems really tense tonight again at Tahrir Square.

 alert 

Binyamin Netanyahu attacks Arab spring uprisings
Israeli PM claims 'Islamic, anti-western, anti-liberal, anti-Israeli, undemocratic wave' vindicates tough stance with Palestinians

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...rael-netanyahu-attacks-arab-spring

 Yeah sure

[Edited 2011-11-24 11:38:17]
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directorguy
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:42 pm

It's not just a case of 'the military is beating up innocent, calm protesters'. I think everyone overreacted to everything-you had small incidents like some protesters abducting a military guy, then you had the police overreacting as usual. Then it's still not clear how people died-can rubber bullets and tear gas actually kill?
Elections will be held as scheduled, and the head of the military junta has said that the presidential election will be held no later than June 2012.
People now seem to be angry-and I think they're overreacting towards the military. Sure-the military could have been better. They could have put a competent government in place, they could have been more vocal in their decisions. But the military has said that the elections will not be postponed. For some reason people wanted to go back to January 25 mode, and have everything shut down. Thankfully that didn't happen.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:56 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 25):
I never heard of deaths from tear gas. There were 39 fatalities last night.
Not sure if they were all from gun shots.

You already answered your own question.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
Incredible footage from Mostafa Bahgat. Look how much shotgun they're firing at us
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AR385
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:07 pm

People can die from Tear Gas, but very rarely happens and it is a case of the individual having a bad reaction to it, such as asthma or pulmonary edema.

If they had used some kind of agent in the gas, be it a neurotoxin or some other kind, then the deaths would have been in the thousands. Even the ones who sent it could be at risk, so it makes no sense.

Rubber bullets can kill too, but it has to be a very unlucky shot or shot at very close range.

I believe the deaths are due to bullets, which has been recognized already by the military and I think its not institutional but rather the work of some overezealous or overburdened soldiers or police.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:12 pm

It's "less than lethal" not "non lethal." There is a big difference. Rubber bullets and these shotgun rounds are less than lethal, and they have the potential to kill. Proper training (which these police may not have) can prevent a lot of accidental deaths, but even with training deaths/serious injury can occur (such as that guy at the Occupy Oakland that got hit in the face.)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
dxing
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:53 pm

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 24):
Although harming the protesters is deplorable, the difference between Tear gas and Nerve gas is the difference between riot control and genocide.


Riot control and murder. They would have to be systematically going around and killing people of a certain tribe or sect for it to be genocide.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 29):
Rubber bullets and these shotgun rounds


Bean bags perhaps?

You riot in that kind of atmosphere, things can go wrong.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:48 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 28):
People can die from Tear Gas, but very rarely happens and it is a case of the individual having a bad reaction to it, such as asthma or pulmonary edema.

From The Guardian - not a conspiracy/obscure news site

Egyptian military using 'more dangerous' teargas on Tahrir Square protesters
Doctors report seizures and convulsions as witnesses claim different crowd control teargas being used

* a powerful incapacitating gas
* at least two other crowd control gases have been used on demonstrators in addition to CS gas.
* Some protesters report having seen canisters marked with the letters "CR"
* the use of more powerful incapacitating agents after reports of gassed protesters falling unconscious and having attacks of jerking spasms.
* "We have been attacked with four different kinds of gas bombs," said Dr Ahmad Sa'ad. "I have never seen these ones before
* some of the recent deaths in Cairo were believed to have been caused by gas asphyxiation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...ian-military-teargas-tahrir-square

I was in the riots in Paris back in 1968. The tear gas that was used was very strong and choking but it had no such serious consequences.

 Wow!
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oldeuropean
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:58 am

Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:25 am

Today the organizations have called for a Million Man march.

Live feed from Tahrir Square. It is now early afternoon in Cairo. The place is packed.
Sirens are heard in the background now and then.
How it will be today is anyone's guess.

h tt p://rt.co m/o n-air/e gy pt-ta hr ir-cl as he s-liv e

  

I need to put in blanks or the link won't post.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Egyptian Military Gassing Protesters

Fri Nov 25, 2011 5:57 pm

This has got to be the picture of the day!

An epic Egyptian woman in niqab:
https://p.twimg.com/AfBwsvACEAAs_7N.jpg



Tahrir Square still packed with protesters (see above link for live feed)

Can hear sirens every now and then with protesters chanting slogans.
Tahrir Square is really heated up with huge crowds.

There is also one one pro-SCAF demonstration in al-Abassiya.

 

[Edited 2011-11-25 10:11:00]
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