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DeltaMD90
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World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:27 pm

Just a fun hypothetical. I couldn't really fit what I wanted to say in the title:

"What do you think the world would look like had the individual states gotten their independence but decided not to become one nation?"

Do you think we'd have wars between the states over the years? What states would have expanded into the West (if they were able to at all?) Would Mexico be a lot bigger than it is now? What would WWII have looked like?

Just some harmless Sunday fun. Hope it doesn't turn uncivil!  
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NSMike
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:18 pm

Canada, extending from the Arctic to Mexico, would be the world's largest superpower...

     
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:26 pm

It seems that the EU is basically a modern version of the old Articles of Confederation. As with the EU, states under the Articles of Confederation were independent with their own militaries, however, they largely shared common interests.
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Kiwirob
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:32 pm

You wouldn't have had the Civil War.
 
photopilot
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:36 pm

The only way that would have happened, and following history, would have been if there was no American Revolution. If that were the case, you'd still be subject to British rule, or like Canada, part of the British Commonwealth. Which means as reply #1 suggests, the country of Canada from the Artic to the Mexican border. However the location of the Mexican border would likely be up around Oklahoma or somewhere.
 
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:08 pm

Quoting NSMike (Reply 1):
Canada, extending from the Arctic to Mexico, would be the world's largest superpower...

Well, that would have avoided the ugly health care debates we've had recently.  

And we'd have just one very big and bloated airline!  
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signol
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:30 pm

You'd be in a situation somewhat similar to Australia. Individual states themselves deciding to federate, and pool resources and power. Happened in Germany and Italy, that a group of independant small states "joined forces". I think the end product would be similar to what the USA is today, but the Federation of the states just happening much later.

Quoting kiwiRob (Reply 3):
You wouldn't have had the Civil War.

True, it would have just been "War".  

signol
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BN747
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:38 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 4):

The only way that would have happened, and following history, would have been if there was no American Revolution. If that were the case, you'd still be subject to British rule, or like Canada, part of the British Commonwealth. Which means as reply #1 suggests, the country of Canada from the Artic to the Mexican border. However the location of the Mexican border would likely be up around Oklahoma or somewhere.

And under Brit Colonial Rule looking back at India and the rest...we'd be jacked - wait....there'd be no 'we'...

.. the world would be more of a absolute mess than it is now.


BN747
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signol
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:20 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 7):
.we'd be jacked

India is just one example. Look at Australia, Canada...

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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:37 pm

There would be an American Union similar to the European Union.

North Korea would be twice as big.

WWII? No idea, perhaps some of the states would have joined Britain and other countries, while the SU would have occupied most of Germany, including Hamburg and thus have (had) access to the North Sea.
Perhaps I should say that *most* of the states would have joined after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor or one of the states. I think even with separate, independent states there would be a bond strong enough to join forces against a threat against any of the states. It is questionable,though, if separate states would have funded the Manhattan Project.

I remember there was a WWI too, which Germany might have won. To some extend, the Treaty of Versailles contributed to the rise of Hitler, although that wasn't the main reason.

Quoting NSMike (Reply 1):
Canada, extending from the Arctic to Mexico, would be the world's largest superpower...


That's another reason why I think the world would look worse than it does now.  
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BN747
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:47 pm

Quoting signol (Reply 8):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 7):
.we'd be jacked

India is just one example. Look at Australia, Canada...

Yes...both launched by Britain

..and both of which had incredible influential 'US of A' input -

Canada: every step of the way.

Australia - really took off after WWII with US bases and military on their turf.

BN747
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LGWflyer
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:53 am

Part of the United Kingdom! Haha interesting thought though.  
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DeltaMD90
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:00 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 4):
The only way that would have happened, and following history, would have been if there was no American Revolution. If that were the case, you'd still be subject to British rule, or like Canada, part of the British Commonwealth.

IIRC, and I should really read up on it again, there was talk of each state going its own way. I think it would be interesting to see the states race westward. I'd think 2 or 3 big states would gain a foothold over most the continent and regional alliances would be formed. Who knows, there could have been a greater Spanish speaking presence in the south and west, French in the northeast and near Louisiana, and English and maybe German in other places. I think we would've formed an AU (like the EU) and would be around where Europe is today... just interesting thought.
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:31 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 4):
The only way that would have happened, and following history, would have been if there was no American Revolution. If that were the case, you'd still be subject to British rule, or like Canada, part of the British Commonwealth. Which means as reply #1 suggests, the country of Canada from the Artic to the Mexican border. However the location of the Mexican border would likely be up around Oklahoma or somewhere.


Actually Texas won their Independence from Mexico with minimal US involvement (apart from the fact most of the settlers came from there), became their own nation for about a decade, and negotiated their entry into the US, which is why, for instance, the federal government does not own a lot of land in Texas - Texans negotiated that all unclaimed land would become the endowment of the University of Texas, and other state uses.

In fact, I think Texas would have become the world's greatest Superpower, it's greatest president having been JR Ewing

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Derico
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:12 am

Quoting dreadnought (Reply 13):
Actually Texas won their Independence from Mexico with minimal US involvement (apart from the fact most of the settlers came from there),

The settlers? You mean... the illegal immigrants, right? Who then promptly revolted against Mexican authority.  

Apologies for consciously divagating, but I could not let the irony of how history repeats itself escape.
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:28 am

Quoting Derico (Reply 14):
The settlers? You mean... the illegal immigrants, right? Who then promptly revolted against Mexican authority.

A lesson for us to not let illegal immigration go uncontrolled, right?

Actually, the immigration was legal - the Mexican government eliminated restrictions on immigration in order to outnumber the indigenous Indian tribes which were violently revolting against Spanish/Mexican settlers. Immigrants from the US were given land grants to entice them to come.
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pilotsmoe
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:29 am

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 11):
Part of the United Kingdom! Haha interesting thought though.

Either that or you would be speaking German and driving on the right side of the road.   
 
trav110
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:41 am

Well, we'd have to pick another name for Georgia pretty much immediately.
 
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:16 am

Had the Revolutionary War not occurred, the US most likely would've become independent in the mid to late 1800s along the same lines of Canada. The big question is whether or not the Civil War would have occurred. IMO, if the Civil War occurred closer to the 20th century, it would've been so destructive that it's questionable if we'd have the same standard of living that we have today in the US. Which brings into question whether or not we would be able to field such a military to fight Nazi Germany and Japan. Either way, we'd most likely be a Commonwealth nation with a parliament and a prime minister.

Thankfully, everything went pretty well in our history and we don't have to pay homage to a vestige of Medieval Europe (see: the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha).
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Derico
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:56 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Actually, the immigration was legal - the Mexican government eliminated restrictions on immigration in order to outnumber the indigenous Indian tribes which were violently revolting against Spanish/Mexican settlers. Immigrants from the US were given land grants to entice them to come.

That is not what I remember, but I'll concede to you better knowledge on the specific status of the migrants during that period. I cursorily read somewhere that the ''anglo'' encroachment fundamentally vexed the Mexicans, which tried various means to counteract it, principally by vainly encouraging their own settlers north. But in general, their efforts were clearly desultory at best.
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photopilot
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 8:57 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
..and both of which had incredible influential 'US of A' input -

Canada: every step of the way.

Australia - really took off after WWII with US bases and military on their turf.

Gawd.... talk about unbridled American jingoism. While the USA has been a good trading partner of Canada, and no doubt there are some mutually beneficial treaties, Canada developed quite nicely by itself, after Canada/British whipped the USA's ass in the War of 1812. Do I have to remind you that it was Canadian/British troops from Upper Canada that came down to Washington and burnt your White House to the ground.
Tell us.... what part of Public Health Care that all Canadian enjoy was in any way influenced by the USA?
Tell us.... what part of our Parlimentary Democracy (you know, a Prime Minister) was in any way influenced by the USA?
Tell us.... what part of Canadian Laws (Based on British Common Law) was influenced by the USA?
Tell us.... what part did the USA play when Canadian troops were fighting at Dieppe, long before you Yanks even thought of joining that little European conflict called WWII?

Brush up on your history lad before you completely prove your lack of knowledge.

ta....
 
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:28 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 10):
..and both of which had incredible influential 'US of A' input -

Canada: every step of the way.

Australia - really took off after WWII with US bases and military on their turf.

Gawd.... talk about unbridled American jingoism. While the USA has been a good trading partner of Canada, and no doubt there are some mutually beneficial treaties, Canada developed quite nicely by itself, after Canada/British whipped the USA's ass in the War of 1812. Do I have to remind you that it was Canadian/British troops from Upper Canada that came down to Washington and burnt your White House to the ground.

That doesn't mean a diddly squat. Canada is still a quintessential Brit-US hybrid.

Canadian Cities (except Montreal) resemble American cities more than any British city or town. Robust advancing urban iconography of the US is more so repeated in Canada than any nation outside the US. Ever see a red double-decker bus in Toronto? No. Driving on the left? No. Nearly everything in modern Canada is most likely to be patterned after an American city (as is the way of life) than in anything in the UK. Parliament? the Brits are more than welcome to claim that.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Tell us.... what part of Public Health Care that all Canadian enjoy was in any way influenced by the USA?

As far as actual patient care..they're probably identical, but as far as administration is concerned, yeah...we've been sold out to Corp (Medical) interest - the Canucks are more honest in that dept. No argument there. Everyone knows Not much trumps American greed.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Tell us.... what part of our Parlimentary Democracy (you know, a Prime Minister) was in any way influenced by the USA?

Addressed above, and not something you'd witness or see walking down the street of any Canadian town - WHICH would be damn near identical walking the street of an American town.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Tell us.... what part of Canadian Laws (Based on British Common Law) was influenced by the USA?

Law schmal...

You go to jail for drinking & driving or underaged sex in both places. Eye in the sky spy cams/traffic cams exist in both places - big deal.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Tell us.... what part did the USA play when Canadian troops were fighting at Dieppe, long before you Yanks even thought of joining that little European conflict called WWII?

Of the many battles on the Normandy coast and you're going to fly off and claim the Canadians won WWII??? Do you have any idea how many decisive battles from North Africa, to Italy and in the North Atlantic occurred that over shadow Dieppe? I guarantee you that 99% of A.net never even heard of Dieppe before your post...

..so I'd suggest you expanded your 'historical understanding with respect to the larger picture' than little nuggets you're trying to amplify to levels of global awareness and global importance.

BN747
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:42 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 21):
Canada is still a quintessential Brit-US hybrid.

And, in our hypothetical situation the Louisiana Purchase would likely have never occurred. Napoleon needed money, which any one state at the time would not have had. So, it would have been taken from him inevitably when France lost any one of the next several wars they fought against Great Britain. So, Canada might now stretch through the heartland to New Orleans. People in Calgary would be making fun of those "southerners" in Denver.

Also, we might never would have had the Alaska Purchase in 1867 if all the independent states never formed a union. Then the now great superpower Canada would have be stationing troops during the Cold War in Dawson City waiting for the Soviets to attack from Tok.

There's a book on my Kindle list I haven't read yet slightly along these lines by an Australian author, John Birmingham called "Without Warning" Although, it occurs in 2003 on the eve of war in Iraq and most of Canada, Mexico and the US population disappear leaving the rest of the world to fend for themselves.
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Kiwirob
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:51 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 21):
Canadian Cities (except Montreal) resemble American cities more than any British city or town. Robust advancing urban iconography of the US is more so repeated in Canada than any nation outside the US. Ever see a red double-decker bus in Toronto? No. Driving on the left? No. Nearly everything in modern Canada is most likely to be patterned after an American city (as is the way of life) than in anything in the UK. Parliament? the Brits are more than welcome to claim that.

I would guess that since Canadian and American cities developed pretty much at the same time in broadly similar environments it's fairly natural that they would have ended up looking pretty similar, with the exception of Montreal. So it's not really a case of Canadian cities looking like American cities.
 
BN747
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:12 pm

Quoting kiwiRob (Reply 23):
I would guess that since Canadian and American cities developed pretty much at the same time in broadly similar environments it's fairly natural that they would have ended up looking pretty similar, with the exception of Montreal. So it's not really a case of Canadian cities looking like American cities.

Well they didn't do everything simultaneously, one mimicked the other.

Nothing was stopping Canada from being a carbon copy of London, Manchester or Birmingham.

As far as one mimicking the other, that means one was blazing the trail. That had to be the more industrious USA.

In Canada today you see influences of older home and building designs reflective English appeal..but the lay pf the land is more wester, more American. When you land in a Canadian city, you don't 'see' laws or other intangibles that make them more English like, you see images that makes you think you're still in America, until someone speaks... the people are nicer.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 22):
So, it would have been taken from him inevitably when France lost any one of the next several wars they fought against Great Britain.

No question about it..the Brits could have unleashed all that 'rebel firepower' on their French cousins and surely would have taken their North American claims away from them...we are talking about the rising British Empire after all..

BN747
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sw733
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:18 pm

Here's kind of a funny one from an African point of view:

Liberia would not be a country as it currently is (formed by freed American slaves), and Monrovia would not be a city (at least with its current name, since it was named after a US president). It would probably have been either a British or French territory, eventually gaining independence but who knows what it would be called.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:42 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
No question about it..the Brits could have unleashed all that 'rebel firepower' on their French cousins and surely would have taken their North American claims away from them...we are talking about the rising British Empire after all..

Well, it's arguable that the British Empire was really rising at that point. The 1700's were far better than the 1800's to Great Britain's colonial expansion. The First and Second British Empire lasted until 1815 with the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The Imperial Century was better known for GB using their strength as the world's only superpower to maintain control over their colonies and defend the empire. And, that's not meant to be a criticism since our New Zealand friends here were made members of the Commonwealth in the 1800's.

So, during the 1800's they dealt with conflicts in India, wars in Africa, and independence of the white colonies. One could argue that if GB didn't have to spend resources trying to keep us unruly colonists in check Napoleon would have been defeated much quicker and we'd all love hockey.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 24):
Well they didn't do everything simultaneously, one mimicked the other.

I'm almost with you here. I've been to most major cities in Canada, to me cities like Vancouver and Toronto don't look or feel like any other city in the United States. However, if you go to Winnipeg or Calgary they do. As you say, Montreal/Quebec City completely different.
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BN747
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RE: World If The US Didn't Become A Nation?

Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:10 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 26):
uoting BN747 (Reply 24):
Well they didn't do everything simultaneously, one mimicked the other.

I'm almost with you here. I've been to most major cities in Canada, to me cities like Vancouver and Toronto don't look or feel like any other city in the United States

No, they clearly have their Canadian flairs.. but are more identifiable with US metropolises than any UK or british city.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 26):
Montreal/Quebec City completely different.

Yep and they resemble their french ties more so than US cities.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson

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