kiwiandrew

Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:36 am

OK, I find this very bizarre and quite disturbing.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10772398

...A conservative Christian politician has a secret life as a sperm donor for lesbian couples - even though he has campaigned against gay marriage..... American politician Bill Johnson has spent most of this year in Christchurch [ New Zealand} helping run the earthquake recovery, all the while using the online persona "chchbill" to meet women who want help to get pregnant.

Under that persona, he has discussed making donations to at least nine women without the knowledge of his family in the US. ...... Asked if his wife knew he was donating sperm, he said: "She does now."

He said she did not know of any of the pregnancies. He said he had not planned on telling her until the children were born.



I just can't get my head around this guys sense of ethics:

1/ deciding to be a sperm donor without clearing it with his wife
2/ ignoring recommended guidelines in New Zealand to donate to no more than 4 families ( to reduce chances of accidental incest in the next generation.)
3/ the hypocrisy of opposing marriage equality while in his own country, but donating sperm to lesbian couples while away from home

Imagine how some of the women he has 'helped' must feel now that the truth has come out, particularly the ones in same sex relationships. When he was discussing providing them with donations did he disclose his opposition to marriage equality?

Very disturbing.
 
fly777s
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:08 am

Selective morality... Seems to be an ongoing characteristic amongst right-wing Christians... and especially those endowed with a certain level of authority.. Mind you, not all Christians are hypocrites, but it seems like the numbers are increasing..
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:41 pm

The question is now, did they do artificial insemination (essentially him jerking off into a cup and the sperm being inserted into the receiving woman via a doctor or her partner) or did he do "natural insemination", essentially him sh#gging the woman (which has a higher probability of conception, but needs a really close relationship between the donor and recepient).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:51 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 2):
The question is now, did they do artificial insemination (essentially him jerking off into a cup and the sperm being inserted into the receiving woman via a doctor or her partner) or did he do "natural insemination", essentially him sh#gging the woman (which has a higher probability of conception, but needs a really close relationship between the donor and recepient).

Jan

Considering that at least one recipient is gay I would assume (hope) artificial insemination. Especially since he was donating to more than one woman it would be extremely disturbing if he was donating through actual intercourse.
 
wn700driver
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:58 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Thread starter):

1/ deciding to be a sperm donor without clearing it with his wife

I don't see why anyone would need spousal approval for that. She's a wife, not a parole officer.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Thread starter):
2/ ignoring recommended guidelines in New Zealand to donate to no more than 4 families ( to reduce chances of accidental incest in the next generation.)

This is a good point though. Probably something the NZ authorities on the issue thought out for a reason.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Thread starter):
3/ the hypocrisy of opposing marriage equality while in his own country, but donating sperm to lesbian couples while away from home

That's just plain natural for american right wingers (though not a characteristic limited to them by any means). I can hardly be surprised by that.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
MoltenRock
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:09 pm

I'd bet you $1,000 this instance is just the tip of the iceberg of much larger, more hypocritical, "morally debased", behavior of this dude. Just as in the case of child molesters like Sandusky (allegedly) the scandal turd-blossoms as more and more victims come forward to file charges, and overcome their feelings of shame to expose the debased animal.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:25 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 4):
Quoting kiwiandrew (Thread starter):

1/ deciding to be a sperm donor without clearing it with his wife

I don't see why anyone would need spousal approval for that. She's a wife, not a parole officer.

You don't see any need for him to consult with his wife before fathering children with other women? Fair enough, you are entitled to your view, but personally I would have thought it was basic good manners.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:12 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Thread starter):
1/ deciding to be a sperm donor without clearing it with his wife

Yes well, perhaps not "clearing" it, but at the very least discussing it with her.

Its a monumental decision to make.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 4):
She's a wife,

And therefore deserves the respect in being a part of this.

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 4):
I can hardly be surprised by that.

Me too, what with maniacs like Gingrich claiming that the Palestinian people are "invented" and his views on Gays, nothing should shock us anymore I suppose.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 6):
but personally I would have thought it was basic good manners.

Something that is sorely lacking in today's society's.

[Edited 2011-12-11 15:13:16]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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Aesma
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:59 pm

Did he want to have as many children as possible ? Seed the Earth or something ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:08 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 4):
I don't see why anyone would need spousal approval for that. She's a wife, not a parole officer.

I don't know in this case, but in France a court recently decided that a man that donated his sperm couldn't expect anonymity (even if it was supposed to stay anonymous). Furthermore, there is nothing preventing the children to claim inheritance ! So, I'd say the wife/partner should have a say.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
rampart
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:43 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 3):
Considering that at least one recipient is gay I would assume (hope) artificial insemination. Especially since he was donating to more than one woman it would be extremely disturbing if he was donating through actual intercourse.

My understanding is that fertility clinics are almost all blind-blind. Donor does not know to whom (or even if) he's actually donating, and donee has the opportunity to select donor, but has no idea the actual identity.


But...

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
I don't know in this case, but in France a court recently decided that a man that donated his sperm couldn't expect anonymity (even if it was supposed to stay anonymous). Furthermore, there is nothing preventing the children to claim inheritance ! So, I'd say the wife/partner should have a say.

This is surprising to me. If it catches on, it could seriously impact the number of much-needed donors (on both sides, M or F). Many won't do it unless there IS complete anonymity. Still, always good to consult one's marriage partner.

-Rampart
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 10):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
I don't know in this case, but in France a court recently decided that a man that donated his sperm couldn't expect anonymity (even if it was supposed to stay anonymous). Furthermore, there is nothing preventing the children to claim inheritance ! So, I'd say the wife/partner should have a say.

This is surprising to me. If it catches on, it could seriously impact the number of much-needed donors (on both sides, M or F). Many won't do it unless there IS complete anonymity. Still, always good to consult one's marriage partner.

-Rampart

Not just this, there has been a case a few years ago in IIRC Sweden, where a donor has been sentenced to pay child support as the biological father after the lesbian couple he donated his sperm for broke up and the mother got left by her former partner without financial support.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:07 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 10):
My understanding is that fertility clinics are almost all blind-blind.

He doesn't seem to be doing it through a clinic according to the article. Furthermore, while clinics in the US might operate blind-blind you can't necessarily assume that it works the same way in other countries.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:01 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 4):

I don't see why anyone would need spousal approval for that. She's a wife, not a parole officer.

Because in any functioning marriage, you really ought to run this sort of thing past your spouse?

I say this as a happily married man. I would have no problem with my hubby donating sperm, but I'd want to know about it.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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MoltenRock
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:38 am

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 4):

You've never been married have you?
 
sccutler
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Tue Dec 13, 2011 4:47 am

Quoting Fly777s (Reply 1):
Selective morality... Seems to be an ongoing characteristic amongst right-wing Christians...

Actually, selective morality is an ongoing characteristic amongst those who practice selective morality. It might even be found occurring, from time to time, amongst those who practice broad stereotyping...  
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 6):
You don't see any need for him to consult with his wife before fathering children with other women? Fair enough, you are entitled to your view, but personally I would have thought it was basic good manners.

Interesting comment. I idly wonder (and I am not taking a jab at anyone) how donating magic man-seed in any meaningful way differs from, for instance, donating blood?
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:34 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 15):
Interesting comment. I idly wonder (and I am not taking a jab at anyone) how donating magic man-seed in any meaningful way differs from, for instance, donating blood?

I would have thought that his fathering children to other women might be something that his wife could be considered to have an interest in. Particularly where he is reportedly making financial commitments and reportedly wants to have a role in the children's lives. In contrast, I don't consider that blood donors tend to make much of a 'post donation' connection with their beneficiaries.

[Edited 2011-12-12 21:36:01]
 
wn700driver
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:13 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 6):

You don't see any need for him to consult with his wife before fathering children with other women? Fair enough, you are entitled to your view, but personally I would have thought it was basic good manners.

I agree it would have been good manners, sure. I just don't get why anyone would think that level of disclosure is required.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):

I don't know in this case, but in France a court recently decided that a man that donated his sperm couldn't expect anonymity (even if it was supposed to stay anonymous). Furthermore, there is nothing preventing the children to claim inheritance !

I can see how this would be required WRT genetic abnormalities. Yes, I'm sure sperm-donories check for that type of thing, but nothing is bullet proof. Better safe than sorry.

Not sure how I feel about the inheritance issue though. As it would pertain to a spouse, I've always been on the side of children when it comes to estates anyway, be they acknowledged or otherwise.

Quoting MoltenRock (Reply 14):

You've never been married have you?

I've done my time.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):

Because in any functioning marriage, you really ought to run this sort of thing past your spouse?

Define functioning. Bet you can't given that that means different things for different folks. Further complicating the issue is that it means different things for different relationships. By way of example, my former spouse never met my family (who are living), and was never so much as issued a phone number or address for my place of employment. And there were and remain very good reasons for this.

My current partner, OTOH, is on a first name basis with many of my employees and frequently coordinates get-togethers with my extended family. Go figure.
Base not your happiness on the deeds of others, for what is given can be taken away. No Hope = No Fear
 
sccutler
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 16):

I would have thought that his fathering children to other women might be something that his wife could be considered to have an interest in. Particularly where he is reportedly making financial commitments and reportedly wants to have a role in the children's lives. In contrast, I don't consider that blood donors tend to make much of a 'post donation' connection with their beneficiaries.

I understand what you say completely, and I am not saying you are wrong... nor am I saying you are right.

But is there not a philosophical argument available, the essence of which would be that the biological material donated, whether it be sperm or blood, is mere "stuff" until it is introduced into its recipient, whereupon it becomes an inextricable part of the recipient? Many contend that, even after the egg is fertilized, nothing of consequence has happened (at least, not until some much-later date or, perhaps, the time of birth).

Now if the donor volunteers financial support and the like, and does so from anything other than his sole and separate assets, of course his spouse has an interest.

Interesting to ponder.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
RottenRay
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:19 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Thread starter):
A conservative Christian politician has a secret life as a sperm donor


Well, at least *this one* wasn't caught tapping his foot in an airport bathroom looking to make an "anonymous" donation...



Quoting Fly777s (Reply 1):
Selective morality... Seems to be an ongoing characteristic amongst right-wing Christians...


Not just the right-wingers. Even the left-wingers try to get their asses into your bedroom to tell you how to live while doing the things they "preach" against and "pray" about.

That's a case of zealotry, nothing more, nothing less.



Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 3):
Considering that at least one recipient is gay I would assume (hope) artificial insemination


Kiwi, that's rather unlike you. Don't go all homophobe, m'kay?

Also, all things in this case make me wish this guy would go ahead and get caught "donating sperm" to a gay guy, if you catch my drift. Serve him right, it would.



Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 6):
You don't see any need for him to consult with his wife before fathering children with other women?


Ahh, I see we've reached the crux of the biscuit.

This is exactly the problem I have with it.

Not so much the progeny part, but the masturbation part. I think if you're in a serious relationship, one that hasn't been agreed upon as being "open," you should check with the other half before you go spewing seed anywhere than in the treasured bed where you both do sexual aerobics and catch ZZZs together.

Even by your own hand.

"Hon, ya mind much if I go ahead and spank the hell out of the monkey at (whatever truck stop, public park, adult bookstore, so on and so forth)?"

Really, it's just common courtesy.


The additional baggage has already been alluded to above by a few folks.

A quick Goooogling shows that birth defects related to inbreeding don't usually show up in the first generation. This is a huge problem, one I think the English folk should be familiar with regarding their royalty in days of yore. Others as well, I'm not singling out the Empire for this; it's simply an example which is easily researched.


So, there you have it. The man is a cad for not clearing this activity with his wife, although there could be mitigating circumstances.

If she's a human shrew too ugly in temperament and appearance to approach about dinner, let alone whipping off a batch for the local spunk library, then perhaps we can understand why he didn't broach the subject.

On the other hand, if she's that bad, he should just put aside his Christianity - for at least as long as it took him to go ahead and please himself during donations - and file for a divorce.


Oh, what tangled webs we... weave.

Thinking about that, I realize it's appropriate as can be. Spiders actually go through a process similar to ejaculation when "shooting" their webs.

g'Night...

Ray
 
KrisFlyerGold
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:22 am

I got paid for my semen a few years ago. Not sure if anyone ever selected it or not, nor do I care. I just needed the money at the time, and figured blowing my load in a plastic container would be the easiest money I ever made, and it was!
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:19 am

Quoting rottenray (Reply 19):
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 3):
Considering that at least one recipient is gay I would assume (hope) artificial insemination


Kiwi, that's rather unlike you. Don't go all homophobe, m'kay?

If anything I thought someone would accuse me of being heterophobic! Most of the gay women who I know would find insemination by anything other than by artificial means completely unacceptable. Some women are prepared to make tremendous sacrifices to have a child, however most of the lesbians who I am acquainted with would draw the line at having to have penetrative intercourse with a man.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:16 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 17):
Define functioning. Bet you can't given that that means different things for different folks.

Um... I can define what isn't functioning. And one partner donating DNA to make babies without notifying the other is non-functioning in my book. A functioning relationship should be an honest one. I don't keep secrets from my husband.
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Aesma
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:38 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 17):
Not sure how I feel about the inheritance issue though. As it would pertain to a spouse, I've always been on the side of children when it comes to estates anyway, be they acknowledged or otherwise.

I have to add that in France you can't disinherit a child or a spouse. You can only give a minor amount to a charity or a person that is not a family member, all the rest goes to your immediate family by law, in equal parts (less what goes to the public coffers, of course).

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 17):
Define functioning. Bet you can't given that that means different things for different folks. Further complicating the issue is that it means different things for different relationships. By way of example, my former spouse never met my family (who are living), and was never so much as issued a phone number or address for my place of employment. And there were and remain very good reasons for this.

Was that a mariage blanc ?

Quoting sccutler (Reply 18):
But is there not a philosophical argument available, the essence of which would be that the biological material donated, whether it be sperm or blood, is mere "stuff" until it is introduced into its recipient, whereupon it becomes an inextricable part of the recipient? Many contend that, even after the egg is fertilized, nothing of consequence has happened (at least, not until some much-later date or, perhaps, the time of birth).

You take the point of view of the (potential) donor, but what is increasingly taken into account is the point of view of the children conceived that way. And for whatever reason that I don't really understand, a lot of them want to know who it was who "jerked in a plastic cup" for them to be conceived.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:44 pm

Quoting wn700driver (Reply 17):
Further complicating the issue is that it means different things for different relationships. By way of example, my former spouse never met my family (who are living), and was never so much as issued a phone number or address for my place of employment. And there were and remain very good reasons for this.

I would point out that it was your former spouse, so I would submit that it wasn't a very functional relationship.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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sccutler
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:34 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
You take the point of view of the (potential) donor, but what is increasingly taken into account is the point of view of the children conceived that way. And for whatever reason that I don't really understand, a lot of them want to know who it was who "jerked in a plastic cup" for them to be conceived.

Good observations. I absolutely, positively, do not have the answers.

But it is still an interesting discussion.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
wn700driver
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RE: Sperm Donor.... But Don't Tell My Wife

Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:04 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):

I would point out that it was your former spouse, so I would submit that it wasn't a very functional relationship.

What, people can't die young in your world? Or simply choose not to continue a partnership?

In my case, I will never believe that my marriage was a good one, and I was certainly plagued with more than my share of buyer's remorse. But I do believe that simply having a former spouse in and of itself doesn't indicate much WRT whether or not a given relationship is/was functional.

As I said, I think it's tough to define functional as it means different things for different folks.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
A functioning relationship should be an honest one. I don't keep secrets from my husband.

This is important to you. Boundaries are important to me. While I also do not believe in being blatantly dishonest, I'm also not afraid to tell someone that I will not answer a given question, explore a given issue, etc. If for example, my partner asked if I'd ever donated sperm, I would say that I would need to know the basis for that question, and then decide if it is worth answering.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):
Was that a mariage blanc ?

Pardon my ignorance. What is a marriag
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