Ken777
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Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:35 am

Looks like the textures have finally hit the brick wall:

Quote:

The National Transportation Safety Board recommended Tuesday that all states and the District ban cellphone use behind the wheel, becoming the first federal agency to call for an outright prohibition on telephone conversations while driving.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...2/13/gIQAbuwHsO_story.html?hpid=z3

While I doubt if the full recommendation will be adopted I can see the handheld electronic being banned. It is not rocket science to have hand free calling. I really don't see hands free calling being any different than having my wife in the car.

As for providing political coverage, I don't look for this to happen until after the 2012 election.   
 
seb146
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:23 am

What is the motive behind this? Why now? Why this issue?

I do agree we do not need to be texting, checking e-mail, applying make-up, reading a book, eating while driving. But, why this issue now? What else is going on that we need to be distracted from?
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:25 am

Only because someone has only recently brought this to the feds attention.
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Maverick623
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:29 am

While I support laws against handheld phone use while driving, banning all forms of phone use is simply ridiculous. You might as well ban radios (which used to be a target for ban-happy people until cell phones came out).

Quoting type-rated (Reply 2):
Only because someone has only recently brought this to the feds attention.

The "feds" themselves, in fact. The NTSB used NHTSA statistics as their main reason for calling for the ban.
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JJJ
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 8:43 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
While I support laws against handheld phone use while driving, banning all forms of phone use is simply ridiculous.

Most countries out there ban handheld phone or programming a GPS unit while driving but not hands free calling.

The latter would be stupid.
 
Starbuk7
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:32 pm

Most states at this time have laws against using a cell phone and texting and it is still happening anyway. At every traffic light I see 40 to 50 % of the cars around me are talking, texting, or reading email. They were doing it when they came to a stop and after the light turned green and they were starting out.

As Seb said in reply 1, there are a lot of things people should not be doing while driving, making a law against only one or two of them is not going to stop it from happening. There needs to be some kind of training like we had when we were kids with the driving films of "blood on the asphalt" and others we saw that gave you a gruesome perspective of what can happen to you if you do these things while driving.
 
Mudboy
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:18 pm

Good, it is about time. When I was working the streets as a Paramedic, I reached a point where I had seen more people killed or injured in MVAs due to Cell phones, than DUI. A friend of mine was killed while jogging by a texting driver. Think about this, when drunks are on the road, it is usually late at night when there is less traffic, but people text and dial at all times of the day, especially when traffic is heavy. Enough is enough, and as far as why now? Maybe it took enough people being killed, before the issue became worthy of their attention? I think people that cause a fatal accident due to texting, should go to prison for vehicular homicide, just as a DUI offender should.
Stay Safe!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:37 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
What is the motive behind this? Why now? Why this issue?
Playing Devil's Advocate here:

According to the report, there have been a series of accidents having injuries and fatalities that were traced to the driver using a cell phone device. The findings/statistics in the report span over a 10-year period, which coincides with the increased number of personal cell phone users and its expanding capabilities (i.e. not just to make or take calls).

Exerpt from the OP's link:
Distracted driving, some of it due to cellphone use, contributed to an estimated 3,092 deaths in highway crashes last year, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

Side bar: A year-and-a-half ago, there was a boat collision along the Delaware River in Philadelphia involving a tug boat and a 'Duck' tour boat. Two young Hungarian tourists died as a result of the collision. The NTSB concluded in its investigation that the primary reason that collison occured was due to the tug boat driver was conversing on his cell phone. Apparently the nature of the conversion involved a medical emergency involving his son.

So apparently, cell phone-related distractions causing accidents don't just occur w/motor vehicles on land.

The reasoning behind the extreme recommendation (including the use of Hands-Free devices), I think, is because not all Hands-Free devices out there are 100% Hands-Free in terms of operations. Some older and/or cheaper devices still require some short-term usage of the hand-held phone for dialing.

Devil's Advocate Mode OFF/Personal Take & Opinion Mode ON:

If this ban is to include ALL devices for conversing, what about the use of CB radios that many truckers, police, ambulance and taxi drivers use? CB usage on the road goes back DECADES before widespread usage of cell phones (back in a day, some luxury cars were either retro-fitted or equipped with 'mobile' telephones) and most trucker that use it are not necessarily using them for work-releated conversations. I know the latter because on many longer drives, I have had a CB temporarily hooked up in my car and have heard some of the conversations among truckers on Channel 19.

Heck, back in the late-70s/early-80s, some car companies (Ford being on of them) offered a CB radio (usually 40 channels) including a hand-held mike as a factory option.

I ask again, will CB radio usage while driving be banned as well? Some hand-held cell phones do resemble walkie-talkie/CB mikes.

IMHO a ban on texting and/or Tweeting while driving makes sense because one needs to be looking at their cell phone screen almost all the time (rather than on the road) in order to perform the needed actions. Talking while driving OTOH only requires a 'quick glance' at a cell phone screen (even on some 'Hands-Free models/adapters) and such a ban would be really tough to enforce... especially if there's an exception for making or taking 'emergency calls'. Too gray of an area.

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
I really don't see hands free calling being any different than having my wife in the car.

Your quote reminds me of an old accident insurance claim:
I was driving along the road, glanced over at my mother-in-law; and went over the embankment.   
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Arrow
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:40 pm

British Columbia (and most other provinces) put a cell phone ban in effect a couple of years ago (hands-free is OK), and it is enforced. Unfortunately, there aren't enough cops patrolling to dent the flow. I still see people on their phones just about every time I go out, and I've almost been whacked by them a couple of times.

The ban hasn't been in effect long enough yet to generate any useful statistics, but every once in a while the cops put out a message that too many people are ignoring the ban. Apparently the rate of accidents caused by "distracted" drivers is very hard to quantify (what idiot is going to admit he was on his cell phone when he smacked the guy in front of him). But given the number of close calls I've had with these idiots, I suspect the problem is real.

Maybe if we shot one or two as an example? 
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seb146
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:40 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
What is the motive behind this? Why now? Why this issue?
Playing Devil's Advocate here:

I get all the statistics. I know driving and texting, checking e-mail, calling, applying makeup, eating causes accidents. I get that. But, over the past 20 years or so*, when some off-the-wall announcement came out from the federal government, they did it to distract everyone from another thing they were doing. Like "Hey!! Look at that over there so you don't see this over here!"

*20 years: About how long I have followed politics. It has probably gone on much longer than that and goes on no matter which party holds which office.
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:57 pm

Idiots texting on their phones are the reason why I want to upgrade my Mazda's tinny little crappy Japanese horn to something louder. Preferably two loud horns set a tritone apart.
 
JJJ
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:08 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 9):
Look at that over there so you don't see this over here!"

So you'd rather do nothing?

Texting drivers cause accidents and should be fined, period. It's not such a big deal, really. Most countries already do that (to the joy of hands-free manufacturers).
 
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:17 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
I really don't see hands free calling being any different than having my wife in the car.

Very different, primarily due to the fact that with a person in the same car you have an extra set of eyes that often as not will help as hinder so the net effect is a neutral situation. You know how passengers react differently to the different road situations as they are there in the car with you seeing the traffic around you, the weather you are in, the road conditions, etc. People will get really quiet if it's a concerning situation or will comment on what is going on. That doesn't happen with a cell phone conversation.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
While I support laws against handheld phone use while driving, banning all forms of phone use is simply ridiculous. You might as well ban radios (which used to be a target for ban-happy people until cell phones came out).

Radio's are not interactive and therefore to not occupy the drivers mind the same way an ongoing conversation does with someone not in the car. People can of course be distracted by almost anything but with cell phones you are dealing with something that is being used more and more everyone that drives and so is a much larger problem.

The question is really what do you do to address the problem? Like drinking and driving, we all know that you can drink alcohol and then still drive safely and get home. Almost everyone does it or has done and is OK with it. A few glasses of wine at dinner, drinks with guys after work, at a party, and then you drive home. No big deal. But sometimes some people can't handle it so rules are put into place.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 6):
Good, it is about time. When I was working the streets as a Paramedic, I reached a point where I had seen more people killed or injured in MVAs due to Cell phones, than DUI. A friend of mine was killed while jogging by a texting driver. Think about this, when drunks are on the road, it is usually late at night when there is less traffic, but people text and dial at all times of the day, especially when traffic is heavy. Enough is enough, and as far as why now? Maybe it took enough people being killed, before the issue became worthy of their attention? I think people that cause a fatal accident due to texting, should go to prison for vehicular homicide, just as a DUI offender should.
Stay Safe!

  

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
If this ban is to include ALL devices for conversing, what about the use of CB radios that many truckers, police, ambulance and taxi drivers use? CB usage on the road goes back DECADES before widespread usage of cell phones (back in a day, some luxury cars were either retro-fitted or equipped with 'mobile' telephones) and most trucker that use it are not necessarily using them for work-releated conversations. I know the latter because on many longer drives, I have had a CB temporarily hooked up in my car and have heard some of the conversations among truckers on Channel 19.

The big difference is twofold: 1. Truckers and Taxi drivers are a different class of drivers, they are professional drivers and have their job on the line. They just bring a different skill set to the task at hand and have vastly more experience that your average driver. 2. It is a much smaller population than "all drivers" and all drivers are beginning to have and use cell phones while driving.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 9):
I get all the statistics. I know driving and texting, checking e-mail, calling, applying makeup, eating causes accidents. I get that. But, over the past 20 years or so*, when some off-the-wall announcement came out from the federal government, they did it to distract everyone from another thing they were doing. Like "Hey!! Look at that over there so you don't see this over here!

I assume you are saying it is a conspiracy? Whatever floats your boat but I think it is just a recommendation to get people and the states to really think about how best to address this problem that has been shown to be as bad as being drunk while driving yet everyone seems OK with it.

I know people like throw out eating, shaving, and putting on makeup, etc. as equivalents however these things are not done continuously for the entire drive. Cell phone use is becoming something that people do for their entire drive (you probably know people that do it already), why not? why waste the time doing nothing but driving? But cell phone use has been demonstrated to be as bad as being drunk while driving whereas the other activities, while distracting, have not tested to be as bad.

Now we all know we are actually OK with driving after people have had a few drinks (see my examples above), we also know that rules were put into place to preventing the worst, blatant abuse of this.

Tugg
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:31 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
1. Truckers and Taxi drivers are a different class of drivers, they are professional drivers and have their job on the line.

It's interesting that in your last post, you quoted my earlier post that contained key phrases/sentences regarding truckers but completely ignored them in your response. Repost with the key phrases/sentences underlined and in bold:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
If this ban is to include ALL devices for conversing, what about the use of CB radios that many truckers, police, ambulance and taxi drivers use? CB usage on the road goes back DECADES before widespread usage of cell phones (back in a day, some luxury cars were either retro-fitted or equipped with 'mobile' telephones) and most trucker that use it are not necessarily using them for work-releated conversations. I know the latter because on many longer drives, I have had a CB temporarily hooked up in my car and have heard some of the conversations among truckers on Channel 19.

Trust me, a trucker talking on a CB about how horrible a state is with their road maintenance program, how lousy their sports team did the other night and/or meeting up with their date, spouse/significant other later on are NOT work-related.

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
2. It is a much smaller population than "all drivers" and all drivers are beginning to have and use cell phones while driving.

Fair enough, I will give you that one.

However, if this new rule regarding a complete cell phone ban while driving did indeed become law (I don't think it will because there's too many gray areas at the moment) and I was conversing while driving using/holding a CB mike (which I have done before); would I get pulled over and cited?
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 13):
It's interesting that in your last post, you quoted my earlier post that contained key phrases/sentences regarding truckers but completely ignored them in your response. Repost with the key phrases/sentences underlined and in bold:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 7):
If this ban is to include ALL devices for conversing, what about the use of CB radios that many truckers, police, ambulance and taxi drivers use? CB usage on the road goes back DECADES before widespread usage of cell phones (back in a day, some luxury cars were either retro-fitted or equipped with 'mobile' telephones) and most trucker that use it are not necessarily using them for work-releated conversations. I know the latter because on many longer drives, I have had a CB temporarily hooked up in my car and have heard some of the conversations among truckers on Channel 19.

Trust me, a trucker talking on a CB about how horrible a state is with their road maintenance program, how lousy their sports team did the other night and/or meeting up with their date, spouse/significant other later on are NOT work-related.

Hmm, wasn't meaning to misquote you, sorry for not addressing the work-related aspect better. With the entire quote my comment still applies as what I was focusing on was not what the conversations are about (work related or not does not matter in my mind) but that truckers themselves are a different class of driver than the "average" driver. Truckers are professional drivers and have a very different attitude, training, and time & experience on the road than the average driver. They see the conditions around them and watch the road in a way that is different from the typical, casual, everyday driver.

So my apologies for being confusing. I am not trying to attack or discredit what you write, just comment on the topic at hand. For my point the conversation topic the driver is discussing is not the issue per se, it is the skill level between a trucker/professional and the teen age girl and the middle-aged business man and the octogenarian, etc. I am not saying truckers or taxi drivers are perfect drivers or don't have their own set of problems, however they do have their jobs on the line if the do something stupid while on the road (whether driving their "job" or not).

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 13):
However, if this new rule regarding a complete cell phone ban while driving did indeed become law (I don't think it will because there's too many gray areas at the moment) and I was conversing while driving using/holding a CB mike (which I have done before); would I get pulled over and cited?

I don't know. I suspect that the professional driver could be treated differently than a lower license-class driver. Like you said there are too may gray areas for a simple answer but I know most people wouldn't tolerate drinking and driving and are OK with the rules that have been adopted (though I think they have gone too far and the limit is too low), so a discussion is needed on what limits should be placed on something that is proving to be as dangerous as driving while drunk.

And actually I think that the NTSB has achieved exactly what it wanted, a big discussion has begun on what is OK and what if any limits are needed for cell phone use in cars.

Tugg

[Edited 2011-12-14 11:06:09]
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:02 pm

I fully support banning hand-held phones while driving but it's un-enforcible. Here in WA state, we have a law banning hand held devices while driving and I can tell you that at just about every stoplight, there's as many or more people with a phone up to their ear as not. A cop could sit at any intersection in the Seattle area and write tickets all day long, but by the time he finished one, a dozen other people would have driven past un-noticed.
I know the day is coming when some idiot texting his girlfriend is crosses the yellow line and slams into me. If he doesn't end up killing me, he's going to wish he had.   
 
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:55 pm

IIRC, I thought it was the distraction of actually talking rather than holding the phone to your ear that is dangerous...
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EA CO AS
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:49 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 5):
Most states at this time have laws against using a cell phone and texting and it is still happening anyway

All states have laws against drinking and driving, yet it still happens anyway also. Would you therefore argue we need a federal law against it?

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
Radio's are not interactive and therefore to not occupy the drivers mind the same way an ongoing conversation does with someone not in the car.

What's the difference between an ongoing conversation via hands-free cell phone vs. an ongoing conversation with the person next to you in the car? Or in the back seat? Would you then also ban handheld radios from being used by police officers while driving? Or during high-speed chases?

The problem with throwing interactive conversations into the mix is you start down a very slippery slope.
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RobertNL070
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:58 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
IIRC, I thought it was the distraction of actually talking rather than holding the phone to your ear that is dangerous...

That as well, but it is safer to have both hands on the steering wheel.
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
While I doubt if the full recommendation will be adopted I can see the handheld electronic being banned. It is not rocket science to have hand free calling. I really don't see hands free calling being any different than having my wife in the car.

Well, we need to ban having the wife in the car then  
Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
I do agree we do not need to be texting, checking e-mail, applying make-up, reading a book, eating while driving. But, why this issue now? What else is going on that we need to be distracted from?

Last night I saw a guy drive by on the Interstate with what looked like a Kindle on the steering wheel. That's pretty bad.

But this is a state issue. the Fed needs to butt out of this one.
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:29 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
What's the difference between an ongoing conversation via hands-free cell phone vs. an ongoing conversation with the person next to you in the car? Or in the back seat? Would you then also ban handheld radios from being used by police officers while driving? Or during high-speed chases?

As I mentioned earlier the primary difference is that with a person in the same car you have an extra set of eyes that often as not will help, so the net effect is a neutral situation. As I am sure you have experienced yourself, passengers react to the road conditions around them. Back front seat, they can see the traffic, the weather, the road conditions, etc. I have had it happen many times that my passengers get really quiet if it's a concerning situation, and have had them point out things that are going on and warn me of things. Has that ever happened with someone on the phone with you?

I really don't see any slippery slope. Just a need to review what is acceptable and not acceptable, the same as we do with drinking and driving.

Regarding the other comment, the fact that different classes of drivers can and will be treated differently is not an unusual thing. I mentioned it before that.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
All states have laws against drinking and driving, yet it still happens anyway also. Would you therefore argue we need a federal law against it?

No need for a federal law. And I wouldn't not support one but there is no push that I can see for a federal law regarding cell phone use while driving. (Of course the federal government doesn't need to pass a law for this kind of stuff, as they did with the speed limit they usually just tie highway funding to certain things and voila, the states pass a law themselves.)

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 18):
That as well, but it is safer to have both hands on the steering wheel.

Most(?) states already have laws that only allow hands free cell phone use while driving.

Tugg
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:54 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 20):
As I mentioned earlier the primary difference is that with a person in the same car you have an extra set of eyes that often as not will help, so the net effect is a neutral situation. As I am sure you have experienced yourself, passengers react to the road conditions around them. Back front seat, they can see the traffic, the weather, the road conditions, etc. I have had it happen many times that my passengers get really quiet if it's a concerning situation, and have had them point out things that are going on and warn me of things. Has that ever happened with someone on the phone with you?

While I can sympathise with your argument, ultimate responsibility is with the person driving the car. I don't care if my passenger is some kind of human spider with eight eyes, it is my responsibility to drive the car with all due care and attention and to see everything there is to see.
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:11 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 3):
While I support laws against handheld phone use while driving, banning all forms of phone use is simply ridiculous.

Statistics and tests have shown that a phone call is distracting because of the conversation and not necessarily because you are simply holding the phone. I would separate this from people talking in the car because the passenger has an interest in the driver paying attention and as said can help then see the road, that can't be said from a person on the other side of the phone line.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):

What is the motive behind this? Why now? Why this issue?

Because as shows like Mythbusters have proved, driving at the legal limit and using a cell phone while driving create similar delays in reaction and we have laws to mandate against drunk driving.

In fact a lot of the time you are in better hands with the person who is at the limit because they are usually more focused to concentrate, but the smarter person doesn't pick up the keys.

Quoting Mudboy (Reply 6):
Good, it is about time. When I was working the streets as a Paramedic, I reached a point where I had seen more people killed or injured in MVAs due to Cell phones, than DUI.

  

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
Like drinking and driving, we all know that you can drink alcohol and then still drive safely and get home. Almost everyone does it or has done and is OK with it. A few glasses of wine at dinner, drinks with guys after work, at a party, and then you drive home.

Not everyone, limits have come down in a lot of areas from 0.08 to 0.05 or even 0.02.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 15):
I fully support banning hand-held phones while driving but it's un-enforcible.

That could be said about drunk driving which is why especially at this time of the year there random checkpoints to get people even though they haven't been driving erratically.
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:45 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
I would separate this from people talking in the car because the passenger has an interest in the driver paying attention and as said can help then see the road, that can't be said from a person on the other side of the phone line.

So you'd outlaw talking to passengers in the car if they were visually-impaired, since they couldn't "help see the road" ?

C'mon, this is ridiculous. Outlawing holding a phone to your ear while driving is one thing, but outlawing hands-free devices as well is just asinine and simply won't happen.
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:12 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
So you'd outlaw talking to passengers in the car if they were visually-impaired, since they couldn't "help see the road" ?

Where did I say that, you completely put those words in my mouth.

It's fact that its more the conversation that is a distraction than holding the phone, I also would reckon a back seat driver creates similar distractions as well.
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seb146
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:20 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 12):
I assume you are saying it is a conspiracy? Whatever floats your boat but I think it is just a recommendation to get people and the states to really think about how best to address this problem that has been shown to be as bad as being drunk while driving yet everyone seems OK with it.

My point was that this announcement was treated as something major. I just wonder what executive orders were signed on the same day? It has happened way too many times over the years.

Distracted driving is an issue. No argument from me.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
But this is a state issue. the Fed needs to butt out of this one.

Yes. Just like I believe the drinking age should be 18 is a state issue and marijuana laws are state issues.
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Fri Dec 16, 2011 9:48 pm

Well, I see more and more drivers talking on cell phones... I have mixed feelings about that.
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Flighty
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:59 am

Quoting September11 (Reply 26):
Well, I see more and more drivers talking on cell phones... I have mixed feelings about that.

There are also tons of drunk people on the road. Most of them drive quite well. But, it is statistically associated with accidents. Just like texting and all that.

Anyhow, I doubt we can outlaw communications from cars while driving. It's just too much of a limit. People will do it unless we make it a crime against humanity, like DUI-alcohol.
 
seb146
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RE: Ntsb Goes After Cell Phones While Driving

Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:02 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
I doubt we can outlaw communications from cars while driving. It's just too much of a limit. People will do it unless we make it a crime against humanity

Also, consider there are only (it seems, I don't know the actual statistic) 2 police for every 3000 drivers. I drove a 40 mile round-trip yesterday from my home to a neighboring town. I saw two county sherrifs on the way back driving some suspect to jail. That was it. No CHP patroling, no city police patroling.
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