LGWflyer
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Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:45 pm

A Russian Naval fleet which included the Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov was spotted 30 miles of the coast of Scotland on Monday, it has been 20 years since they last come this close. The Destroyer HMS York was alerted and sent to interecept the Russian fleet. Also it has now been rumoured that the carrier was fly-tipping/dumping waste of the coast of Scotland.

More info about this on the Daily Mail website:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...urity-scare.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[Edited 2011-12-14 15:03:13]
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sccutler
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:29 am

Time for the Brits to send out their carriers...

...oh, sorry.

Never Mind.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:12 am

typical Daily Mail sensationalism. They were sheltering from storms that were hitting the region - big deal. And as for the fly tipping:

Quote:

A Royal Navy spokesman added that Russia was 'almost certainly' acting in accordance with international rules.
He said: 'Russia is signed up to the International Maritime Organisation's maritime pollution rules, of which they are very strict followers. If they are doing it, it's almost certainly in accordance with the regulations and is most likely going to be low-level food waste.'

again, a non issue.
 
ajd1992
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:02 am

Keep in mind the last time it happened the Soviet Union was just about to break up or had just broken up, the Cold War was still fresh as well.

The Russian Air Force fly around Scotland quite often - it's not really a big deal, just more Daily Fail bullcrap.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:21 pm

Daily Mail?   

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 2):
They were sheltering from storms that were hitting the region - big deal.

But the truth is so much more boring and unlikely to sell newspapers (rags).
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par13del
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:19 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 2):
typical Daily Mail sensationalism.
Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 3):
it's not really a big deal, just more Daily Fail bullcrap.

Question, did the Royal Navy really send a ship 1,000 miles for Daily mail bull or are you just saying the issue should not have been reported?
The news article seem to show that the politicians had more to say than any Mail editorial.

Another question, depending on weather conditions I would think it took the destroyer more than 24hours to make the transit, were there any reports in UK media during this time or were all such reports "supressed" until the destroyer actually arrived on the scene?
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:44 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 5):
Question, did the Royal Navy really send a ship 1,000 miles for Daily mail bull or are you just saying the issue should not have been reported?

I'm saying the daily mail sensationalised the issue:

Headline: HMS York scrambled to Scotland in security scare as Russian fleet comes within 30 miles of Britain for the first time in 20 years

All sounds rather dramatic, when in reality all that happened is a couple of Russian boats decided to shelter off the Scottish coast.

Compare that to the BBC's coverage - headline: "Russian aircraft carrier 'fly-tipping' off Moray Firth". And in mention to HMS York's presence - "Portsmouth-based Royal Navy destroyer HMS York has been shadowing the vessels.".

Not quite the rapid scrambling of HMS York to prevent a security scare, as the Daily Mail would have us believe...
 
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garpd
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:48 pm

This nugget of info is correct however:

Previously defence chiefs would have scrambled Nimrod aircraft from RAF Kinloss in Moray but because the base has been scrapped in cutbacks and a new fleet of planes cancelled, the Navy had no choice but to send HMS York

In typical short sightedness, our politicians closed down bases and grounded perfectly serviceable aicraft before replacements were online and then cancelled orders from the replacements. This leaves our northern half completely unprotected and ill equipped for S&R Ops.

Currently, if there is an "incident" like this, or a ship in distress, they will need to wait for a Sea King or ship to turn up. anything between 8 and 24 hours. Better hope that hole in the hull is small then!
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lhr380
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 7):
Currently, if there is an "incident" like this, or a ship in distress, they will need to wait for a Sea King or ship to turn up. anything between 8 and 24 hours. Better hope that hole in the hull is small then!

What would a Nimrod do other then circle overhead?
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oldtimer
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 7):
In typical short sightedness, our politicians closed down bases and grounded perfectly serviceable aicraft before replacements were online and then cancelled orders from the replacements

Those replacement planes were over budget and even later than the 787/380/350 combined and scrapping them was kinder than just throwing more money at them.
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nighthawk
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:28 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 7):
Currently, if there is an "incident" like this, or a ship in distress, they will need to wait for a Sea King or ship to turn up. anything between 8 and 24 hours. Better hope that hole in the hull is small then!

Don't worry, an Independent Scotland plans to order P-3s     

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 8):
What would a Nimrod do other then circle overhead?

And what is a single frigate going to do against 7 Russian ships? The aim of the game is to monitor, not destroy.

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 9):
Those replacement planes were over budget and even later than the 787/380/350 combined and scrapping them was kinder than just throwing more money at them.

Indeed, something many seem to forget when criticising the decision. The decision to cancel the project was the right one, the decision to order them in the first place is the decision that should be criticised.
 
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting LGWflyer (Thread starter):
A Russian Naval fleet which included the Carrier Admiral Kuznetsov was spotted 30 miles of the coast of Scotland on Monday,

What did Gkirk do now? Isn't sheep shagging legal?
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par13del
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:48 pm

Quoting lhr380 (Reply 8):
Quoting garpd (Reply 7):
Currently, if there is an "incident" like this, or a ship in distress, they will need to wait for a Sea King or ship to turn up. anything between 8 and 24 hours. Better hope that hole in the hull is small then!


What would a Nimrod do other then circle overhead?

I believe they also had the ability to drop rafts and life jackets, depending on the sea state they would be helpful.
 
GDB
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:06 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 7):
In typical short sightedness, our politicians closed down bases and grounded perfectly serviceable aicraft before replacements were online and then cancelled orders from the replacements. This leaves our northern half completely unprotected and ill equipped for S&R Ops.

Currently, if there is an "incident" like this, or a ship in distress, they will need to wait for a Sea King or ship to turn up. anything between 8 and 24 hours. Better hope that hole in the hull is small then!

No doubt this lack of capability was pointed out, maybe it's just that the river Thames flowing near to Eton College gave a false impression of potential nautical disasters.

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
I believe they also had the ability to drop rafts and life jackets, depending on the sea state they would be helpful.

Indeed, they were very important assets in dealing with sea disasters, both in dropping rescue equipment and for command and control.

But it is a typical Daily Mail scare story, it's worth remembering that 100 years ago, when Imperial Britain ruled the waves, was the 'workshop of the world', ruled a quarter of the human race, the Mail still ran stories of imminent doom, the country going to the dogs, immigration '(East London) etc.

And if that fleet did have hostile intent, that's what the RN's nuclear subs are for.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:28 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 9):
Those replacement planes were over budget and even later than the 787/380/350 combined and scrapping them was kinder than just throwing more money at them.

If only they had selected the P-3 Orion/CP-140 Aurora so many years ago, life would have been simplere, and the British taxpayer's burden just a little lighter. But, national pride being what it is...our Arrow is a similar testament, actually.
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tu204
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:42 pm

You guys aren't seeing the real picture here.
The Russian fleet is using the weather as an excuse to position close to Scotland in order to support the fight for the Independence of our Scottish Brothers!  
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par13del
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:04 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):

And if that fleet did have hostile intent, that's what the RN's nuclear subs are for.

Ah crap, now you had to mention that, were any submarines deployable, shadowing the fleet in transit or where they on xmas break early? The sub force has had their share of "issues" let sgive them a break on this one  
 
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garpd
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 9):

Those replacement planes were over budget and even later than the 787/380/350 combined and scrapping them was kinder than just throwing more money at them.

Granted.
But grounding a servicable fleet that is highly utilised with no replacement is an incredible blunder.
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scbriml
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:21 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 10):
Don't worry, an Independent Scotland plans to order P-3s

And here's the first one!   

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oldtimer
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:57 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 17):
Granted.
But grounding a servicable fleet that is highly utilised with no replacement is an incredible blunder.

The old fleet was way past its sellby date and the new ones had not entered service, it was a BAe screwup on costs and a fifty year old airframe was wasting money
Oldtimer, I should have known better!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Sat Dec 17, 2011 4:49 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
Ah crap, now you had to mention that, were any submarines deployable, shadowing the fleet in transit or where they on xmas break early?

I think it would be a pretty safe bet that an Astute/Trafalgar has been shadowing the Russians for quite some time.
 
GDB
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:45 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 16):
Ah crap, now you had to mention that, were any submarines deployable, shadowing the fleet in transit or where they on xmas break early? The sub force has had their share of "issues" let sgive them a break on this one  

The UK government has a policy of being coy about the deployment of RN subs, not just in the obvious case of the Trident boats, but also of the conventionally armed ones too.
Until they do something like fire Cruise missiles at enemy targets, (which since 1999 they have done in four separate campaigns), or to press a political/military point.
Which was done in December 1977 to forestall a potential Argentine invasion of the Falklands, which four and a half years later the successor government failed to do.
Leading to the subs being used as first a political/strategic asset to initially set up a Total Exclusion Zone around the islands as the British surface fleet approached to retake the islands, then (for the first and only time since WW2, by anyone, certainly with a nuclear powered boat) actively engage an enemy fleet. As well as Special Forces insertions. Which they no doubt also done since too, however the commentary on SF options is even more restricted.

Really, you could argue that the RN sub fleet is the most combat experienced in the world, taking all of the above.

Some navies, even some more perhaps lavishly equipped, larger, spend rather more time in port and rather less time on exercises and operations, including some from NATO nations. This has long been the case.
It's notable that almost alone in last years Defence cuts, the RN sub fleet and it's procurement program, remained untouched.

I'd say there is every likelihood that this Russian fleet has or is being shadowed by a SSN.
The RN submariners however do call themselves 'The Silent Service'.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:48 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
I think it would be a pretty safe bet that an Astute

It probably ran aground somewhere while en route to shadow the russian fleet   
 
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garpd
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:39 pm

Quoting oldtimer (Reply 19):

The old fleet was way past its sellby date and the new ones had not entered service, it was a BAe screwup on costs and a fifty year old airframe was wasting money

An old fleet providing a service and vital S&R cover is better than bugger all, which is what he have now. That is my point.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:24 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 23):
Quoting oldtimer (Reply 19):

The old fleet was way past its sellby date and the new ones had not entered service, it was a BAe screwup on costs and a fifty year old airframe was wasting money

An old fleet providing a service and vital S&R cover is better than bugger all, which is what he have now. That is my point.

The Russians always had the policy that and old tank or an old rifle was better than no tank or no rifle at all. Therefore up to a few years ago they still kept huge stockpiles of WW2 weapons, including T-34/85 tanks and PPsH submachine guns. They only sold some of the weapons to collectors a few years ago.

Jan
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KLMA330
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:13 am

Great Britain should have never let go of its aircraft carriers.

What were you guys thinking? One military expense that should have been kept.
 
GDB
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:31 pm

Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 25):
Great Britain should have never let go of its aircraft carriers.

What were you guys thinking? One military expense that should have been kept.

The fixed wing naval aviation is having a 'capability holiday', just it's rather a long one, 10 years.
Compare that to the 18 months between the last fixed wing carrier retiring in 1978 and the service entry of the Sea Harrier.

It should have become clear by the early 2000's that the idea of converting Nimrod MR.2's to the MRA.4A that was so extensive they were in effect new aircraft, was more difficult and more expensive that building from new (which BAe had offered as an option).
But then had the MoD asked the Treasury in 1996 for a 'new' maritime patrol aircraft, it would have been blocked. Hence the conversion of existing airframes.
The stunningly ignorant Treasury wanted already aging surplus P-3's to be refurbished and procured, given the issues the USN has had in keeping them flying (many are older than the Nimrods were), we'd be in a similar situation now probably.

That a Nimrod was lost over Afghanistan in 2006 was a result of the temporary, hastily rigged up, in flight refuelling capability, installed in 1982 to support operations in the South Atlantic, once again being used, even more extensively, to support operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.
In the 20 year period between those operations, in the aircraft's main Eastern Atlantic role it was barely used.
Add in the age of the aircraft before MRA.4A rebuild, the delays to that project, you had an accident waiting to happen.
Confidence was lost in operating legacy Nimrods after a damning report.(After the aircraft was lost the UK hastily procured UAV's to take on much of that Afghan surveillance mission, begging the question 'why did they not do that before?'
 
Flighty
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:03 pm

Good for Russia, it looks like their ships have been patched enough to travel hundreds of miles from base. I am inspired.  
 
tu204
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RE: Russian Carrier Fleet Spotted 30 Miles Off The UK

Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:43 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
Good for Russia, it looks like their ships have been patched enough to travel hundreds of miles from base. I am inspired.  

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