MadameConcorde
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WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:42 pm

They are upset that Dr. Ron Paul gets upgraded to first class because of his frequent flyer miles and the Washington Post spreads b.s. that these are 'hidden' benefits because he does not actually pay for them nor do the taxpayers.

WASHINGTON — Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul has been spending large amounts on airfare as a congressman, flying first class on dozens of taxpayer-funded flights to his home state. The practice conflicts with the image that Paul portrays as the only presidential candidate serious about cutting federal spending.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...s/2012/01/16/gIQA1cxY2P_story.html

Upgrades to first-class with cheaper fares are possible, at times limited to available seats days before the flight. But those upgrades are not guaranteed and some require ticket changes at the airport, according to the airline’s frequent flyer rules.

Don't the media know that after reaching the proper frequent flyer status by flying a certain number of miles/yearly the status holder gets entitled to UDU (unlimited domestic upgrades) as well as complimentary regional and system wide upgrades?

 Wow!

They will never miss a chance of slandering Dr Ron Paul.
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DocLightning
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:46 pm

And not only that, but if he is flying between DC and his home state on business, which he would essentially always be doing, then it is absolutely appropriate for his employer to pick up the tab. Do they think he should pay out of his own pocket?
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MadameConcorde
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
if he is flying between DC and his home state on business, which he would essentially always be doing, then it is absolutely appropriate for his employer to pick up the tab

I guess the same is done for all members of the House and Senate.
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Mir
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
And not only that, but if he is flying between DC and his home state on business, which he would essentially always be doing, then it is absolutely appropriate for his employer to pick up the tab. Do they think he should pay out of his own pocket?

Is it the purchasing of tickets using taxpayer funds that they have a problem with, or the purchasing of first-class tickets using taxpayers funds? They're not the same - I've got no problem with a congressman using taxpayer funds for business trips, but if he's one of those minimal-spending types, it does raise an eyebrow when he's purchasing first class seats. Upgrades are something else entirely - if he's spending the miles that he's accrued on upgrades, I've got no problem with that, since the taxpayers aren't paying any more for the ticket.

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DocLightning
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):

I guess the same is done for all members of the House and Senate.

Yes. In fact, they are all given a certain number of round-trips, IIRC. A representative or senator has an office in D.C. and an office at home. They usually have to maintain two residences, too.

I get really annoyed when people start ragging on elected officials for billing perfectly reasonable business-related expenses to the taxpayers, or for being compensated for their jobs. That's why we pay taxes. And frankly, I don't think it's unreasonable that someone who has to fly long distances often for work should have their work cover F seats. Flying Y from time to time is unpleasant, but reasonable. Flying Y for a long distance on a regular basis is just brutal. You can't even open a laptop in most Y cabins these days, which is a big issue when you are as busy as a representative or senator can be.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:07 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Is it the purchasing of tickets using taxpayer funds that they have a problem with, or the purchasing of first-class tickets using taxpayers funds?

They put out a very misleading article saying he purchased first class tickets on the tax payers money. Of course it was fully exposed as misleading and the media did nothing to report on that. He uses his CO FF miles to upgrade IIRC

just watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7oSRPQ2Dtm4

also, love the piece FOX put out about veterans supporting GOP candidates and had one for Newt, Mitt, and Santorum, but not Paul, the guy that got more money from the military than all the GOP candidates combined and more than President Obama has received from the military. Paul's top 3 contributors are citizens from the Navy, Army, and Air Force (maybe not in that order but they are the top 3.) But no, MSM wants us to think Paul is anti-military because he doesn't buy into the destructive militarization our country is obsessed with. /rant

Edit: PS, even if Paul did buy first class tickets on the taxpayers dime, he is one of five or so Congressmen that puts money back into the US treasury every year. You may not agree with what he says, but it's hard to argue that this guy isn't 99.9% consistent at least

Can provide sources for anything I said if anyone wants btw

[Edited 2012-01-28 18:10:02]

[Edited 2012-01-28 18:10:37]
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deltairlines
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:14 am

Let's not distort some facts here.

Dr. Paul buys the YCA fares - they are treated as full Y fares, but are discounted significantly off the rack price. These are government negotiated fares done annually by the GAO.

Because Dr. Paul flies more than 25,000 miles a year (since this is a benefit even Silvers have to my knowledge), an elite on a full Y fare (as a YCA constitutes) are eligible for immediate upgrade to the First Class cabin should upgrade inventory be available.

Had Dr. Paul not been elite, he would not have gotten the First Class seat.

As for using the YCA fare, it does offer the flexibility to change and no AP requirements. Yes, they are more than deep-discounted fares, but these might not be out there for the flight times he needs, and as a Congressman there is that need for flexibility (yes I know the article says he didn't change them much, but there is still that potential).
 
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:17 am

So, he wants government out of private business, but he is willing to be reimbursed by government for his travel? Something does not make sense. He wants government small, so why does CO stop offering government fares? Why does he get frequent flyer miles to use any way he chooses when we are the ones helping to pay for his seat on those flights?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. I have a strong RP bias but I really try and stay objective. Even he believes government has SOME role and has to pay for some things. He lives in TX as a Congressman, and it is his JOB to go to DC. The employer (the government) pays for travel of its colleges (congressmen and women.) As for why he gets FF miles for these flights, I don't know, ask CO why they give FF miles to government employees

Edit: here is the article I was talking about it my last post: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/...-r-tex-gives-100000-back-taxpayers

He gives back unused money to the US treasury!

[Edited 2012-01-28 18:27:13]
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seb146
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
The employer (the government) pays for travel of its colleges (congressmen and women.)

And, as a tax payer, I am paying for not only my two senators and one congresswoman, but also the other 532 members of Congress. Why? How is that fair?

I also think it is interesting how, when a right-winger is questioned on his expenses, it is class warfare, but when anyone else is questioned, they are lazy and not motivated enough to be rich.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 9):
And, as a tax payer, I am paying for not only my two senators and one congresswoman

Well, how else are Congressmen and women supposed to get paid? Do you think President Obama should pay out of pocket for his trips to China? I really don't get what your argument...

Quoting seb146 (Reply 9):
I also think it is interesting how, when a right-winger is questioned on his expenses, it is class warfare, but when anyone else is questioned, they are lazy and not motivated enough to be rich.

WTF are you talking about, I didn't say anything about that!!!!  Wow!

Nor do I believe any of that. What are you getting at Seb?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:06 am

I'll try and take it point by point because I'm not sure I'm getting your argument.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
So, he wants government out of private business,

Yes

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
but he is willing to be reimbursed by government for his travel?

It is his job, pretty much all employees for any company get their travel paid for. His house to DC is his "company travel" in a sense, since he lives in TX as a Congressman and DC is where Congress is at

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
Something does not make sense.

?????

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
He wants government small, so why does CO stop offering government fares?

The government doesn't mandate what CO does. CO could charge a million dollars to government travel. But most airlines have deals with government and businesses due to the differences in that kind of travel. But that is the AIRLINE's choice, the government isn't dictating anything

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
Why does he get frequent flyer miles to use any way he chooses when we are the ones helping to pay for his seat on those flights?

Ask CO that. He has them, what is he supposed to do, donate his miles to the taxpayers??

Even Ron Paul believes the government has SOME role, including flying its congressmembers in...
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BMI727
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
So, he wants government out of private business, but he is willing to be reimbursed by government for his travel?

Why would anyone not expect their employer to reimburse them? And when he says he wants the government out of private businesses, I think that contracting is not what he thinks is bad. Would it be better if he took a USAF plane everywhere?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
Why does he get frequent flyer miles to use any way he chooses when we are the ones helping to pay for his seat on those flights?

Most companies allow their employees to keep frequent flier miles. Sometimes companies with travel agreements are given a certain number of elite memberships to give out to their employees. Since the government would have paid the same price for the travel whether miles are given or not, it doesn't really pose a problem for me.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
I don't know, ask CO why they give FF miles to government employees

Guess where they go to book vacations?
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:37 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
WTF are you talking about, I didn't say anything about that!

You don't, which I respect. Other right-wing supporters do.

I guess the thing I don't understand about libretarianism (poor spelling) is: where do we draw the line? Government needs to get out of personal lives, is my understanding of libretarians. Why do people from California need to pay for legislators from Florida or (in this case) Texas? Some ideals of Ron Paul I support like we need to stop being policemen to the world. Others, I just don't get; like: where do we draw the line at "separtation of government and person."

And, no, I don't think Congress people, ANY Congress people, should be able to rack up personal frequent flier miles when families are going hungry. For example (I have no evidence this happened, just an example): Ron Paul uses frequent flier miles he gained on flights from DC to his home to take his family on a free trip to Australia. That is like $3000 that could be used to feed a family. All on the tax payers dime.
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BMI727
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:49 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
For example (I have no evidence this happened, just an example): Ron Paul uses frequent flier miles he gained on flights from DC to his home to take his family on a free trip to Australia.

Except I don't think you can count FF miles as having any cash value. Otherwise they may have to be declared as income for taxes or assets in bankruptcy for instance. I'm not aware of any precedent to the contrary.

I know the government once toyed with taxing non-rev travel benefits but determined they have no value.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Why do people from California need to pay for legislators from Florida or (in this case) Texas?

The idea behind that is that while they represent the people who elected them, they are also charged with determining what is best for the nation overall and setting federal policy.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
I guess the thing I don't understand about libretarianism (poor spelling) is: where do we draw the line?

Well, his line is actually pretty well defined. I cannot name them all, but he thinks the federal government should be involved in things directly outlined in the Constitution. Everything else should be up to the states or individuals. Now many disagree with his ideology, and I do not agree with 100% of what he says, but it's hard to argue that he is very consistent in his ideology. I mean the man gives back money, he always has an answer to questions that fit his ideology (and you can even search back 20 years--he says the same things.) Really, I don't mind if you or anyone disagree with Paul. I just try and show people facts. If you think his small government is unrealistic and does not take care of the poor and that government *should* have a larger role, that is your right and I applaud your decision. But if you dislike him because you read the inaccurate AP article, that isn't fair to him. Anyway, back on topic...

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
And, no, I don't think Congress people, ANY Congress people, should be able to rack up personal frequent flier miles when families are going hungry.

Well I agree actually, but that is up to the airlines. The government does not mandate to the airlines that they need to give Congressmembers FF miles, the airlines themselves do.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Ron Paul uses frequent flier miles he gained on flights from DC to his home to take his family on a free trip to Australia. That is like $3000 that could be used to feed a family. All on the tax payers dime.

Well... I don't know about that, because he would have flown the official business flights no matter what, and the tax payers still pay for that travel. Him taking a hypothetical flight really wouldn't cost the taxpayers anything. I don't think Paul would do that honestly.

I think you should really read up on Paul a bit. Even if you disagree with him, he is a very interesting guy, and looking at all the facts I think you'd agree he has a very consistent ideology (many left-leaning people and people that disagree with Paul agree.) For example, he is anti-abortion, BUT, unlike other GOP candidates, he believes it is up to the states to pass laws against it and wouldn't support a federal law against it. He argues violent crimes like murder are set by the states, and it is up to the states to pass these laws. You may disagree that abortion is a violent crime and that states should ban it, but it really does prove his ideology is sound--instead of just passing an executive order or support a federal law, he wants the bills to go through the states, just like he thinks every other bill should go through.

tl;dr It is your American right to disagree with Ron Paul! I only ask that you disagree with him after knowing the truth on him!  
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:56 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):

What are you talking about? How is getting frequent flier miles on flights used for business a waste of $3,000 of tax payer money? That makes absolutely no sense at all. Just as ANY jon should pay for travel to and from work if required the U.S. gov does. Members of Congreve need to fly between their home state offices and D.C. frequently to even have a chance at doing their job correctly. Members of congress make a good salary but with the expense of paying for their own second residence in D.C. paying for very frequent and sometimes last minute travel would be too much even for someone making 175k a year.
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:40 pm

There are 2 areas of issues as to Rep. Ron Paul or any government employee getting an upgrade to Business or First Class using there own FF accounts. Basically they are the ethical/improper influence and public perception.

The ethical/improper influence is perhaps the most important. Rep. Paul or any other Congressmember or Senator, former ones, candidates, certain appointed or formally appointed officials or employees are or may be involved with laws and regulations of the airline industry. Although there could be special rules for regular government employees or especially FAA or NTSB employees as to using their personal FF accounts for government or even personal use, you don't want the highly regulated airlines buying influence. While using the FF programs, one has to wonder if they are 'tweaked' for certain persons vs. non-government employees. If there are 3 First seats available but 6 qualified for them, would someone like Rep. Paul, even if of a lower FF tier or mileage within a tier, given an advantage over the others. Even if stuck in coach, could they be given a higher value seat (aisle, bulkhead, exit row, close to exit/entrance doors) over others who paid a higher fare or bump around such pax. Are numerous fees, like bag fees, not charged? If any of these situations occur, than you have a real ethical problem and should not occur.

Then there is the perception of a representative getting 'elite' treatment, that they can't sit with the 'little people' and are instead with the 1%'ers in First and their more likely conservative, pro business political biases.

I would be instructive as to if any other countries have rules against any or certain government employees being banned from using personal FF account benefits for upgrades or other benefits in their personal or government travel.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:38 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 17):

What you raise is more of a perception issue that anything. Again, I really doubt Paul is trying to do anything elitist. This is the same guy who if elected would "reduce his own presidential salary from $400,000 to $39,336 – the median salary of an American worker," *1 "refuses to participate in 'immoral' [Congressional] pension system [and] Says fewer perks for congress will limit terms of politicians, save taxpayers money," *2 and before even becoming a politician, as a doctor he "refused to accept Medicare or Medicaid payments and would not let his children accept federal student loans." *3 (By refusing these payments he didn't turn patients away like some rumors on the internet go. There is a famous ad about him delivering a interracial couple's baby that no one else would deliver... for FREE. Which is why I figured him writing racist news letters was completely out of character and not him.) And all this is on top of returning unused funds back to the US treasury I mentioned in my last posts. The guy is so consistent it's almost a little weird honestly, so if this 1st class flying this is inconsistent on his part, it is probably the only inconsistent thing I can find on the guy lol

Sources to prove I'm not making stuff up:
1: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...ul-proposes-interes_n_1140723.html
2: http://paul.house.gov/index.php?opti...content&task=view&id=999&Itemid=28
3: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ampaign-paul-idUSTRE8020L920120103

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 17):
I would be instructive as to if any other countries have rules against any or certain government employees being banned from using personal FF account benefits for upgrades or other benefits in their personal or government travel.

Well this is both the airline's fault and the government's fault. The people making these laws are the same ones enjoying the benefits so I doubt it will change from that end. And if the airlines changed the policy, I could actually see some legitimate discrimination issues. They'd probably have to change the rules for business travelers which would lose a lot of businesses, so they wouldn't want to do that. It would have to be up to Congress to opt out and again, good luck having that passed
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LMP737
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:42 pm

Ron Paul is not getting the nomination so why even bother?
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 19):
Ron Paul is not getting the nomination so why even bother?

He is trying to promote many of his ideas. I won't list them all out because most people know what they all are. Paul has a loyal 10-15% (in some places almost 25%) and many of them won't vote for any other GOP candidate. The eventual GOP nominee would be very stupid to not take at least some of his ideas seriously and even incorporate a few of them into their platform. Things like balanced budgets are no-brainers, yet Paul seems to be the only one willing to fix it without expanding the government even more.

If the eventual GOP candidate incorporates enough of Paul's ideas, I might vote for that candidate. Otherwise it's third party or write-in all the way for this guy
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LMP737
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:57 pm

The whole frequent flier think is realtively minor. There are other things they can mention about Ron Paul that would be of bigger concern to people.
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:05 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 21):
The whole frequent flier think is realtively minor. There are other things they can mention about Ron Paul that would be of bigger concern to people.

Exactly. Just like many attacks on candidates. I don't care if everyone in the world hated Ron Paul and disagreed with his policies as long as they knew the truth and what they were disagreeing with. Him wanting too small of a government is a legitimate agreement, saying he's a hypocrite because he flies first class on the taxpayer's dime is inaccurate, and claims that he is anti-military are misleading for example
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
saying he's a hypocrite


Here's something he's a hypocrite on, hurricane relief. Ron Paul voted against Katrina relief saying "Is bailing out people that chose to live on the coastline a proper function of the federal government?" Why do people in Arizona have to be robbed in order to support the people on the coast?" He then voted against Hurricane Ike relief which affected his home district. Now here's where it gets interesting. While voted against that spending bill he first made sure there was $96 million for his district in another bill. Guess he wanted the best of both worlds.

Either way it comes off a bit unseemly to vote against Katrina relief and then make sure your own home district gets money for essentially the same thing.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...er-aid-for-Ike-victims-1533178.php

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...bers-want-millions-for-1734261.php
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 23):

you'll have to explain it a bit more. I'm not saying Paul is right here, I'm just skeptical of everything the media says. He votes against federal aid for disaster areas, consistent with his beliefs (and this is actually an area where I disagree with him.) But if I read correctly, he was against the bill but if it indeed passed, he wanted some of that money to go to his district. Am I right on that? Doesn't seem bad to me. He is against it but isn't just gonna ignore projects in his district in the event that it does pass.

Or did I read incorrectly?
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):

His position is the following: he is against that kind of spending, completely. But the people in his district are taxed just like everyone one else, and it would be irresponsible of him to NOT try to get some of that money back. This is why he votes against the spending every time, but actually INSISTS on appropriating the spending that is already approved. Spending that is not appropriated ends up spent by the executive branch, it is not money "saved".

The problem he then faces is the same problem with all government spending: the decision on where to spend is ENTIRELY subjective. He would much rather return those tax dollars to taxpayers than to make the decision where to spend it, but he can't.

I have explained this to LMP737 at least once before, but apparently he is still interested in disseminating false arguments to attack Dr. Paul. Some of these stories from the chron date back to 2007/2008 and have already been explained and dismissed, much like the newsletters that date back even further. Some people will just never let it go.
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 25):

Ok that's what I thought, I'm wondering why he believes what he does unless he takes the media at face value. Basically, he is against X (spending) being high and would in most cases, have X = 0. BUT, if X > $0, he wants Y (the % of the spending going to his district) being equal to other districts. I guess that analogy is kinda hard if you're not a math nerd  

How about this, he is against having lots of pies being made, but if the pies are made, he wants his district to get a fair amount of pieces since his district helps make the pies with their tax dollars.

Really, LMP737, if I'm wrong, please correct me. I don't want to provide any misinformation even if the truth is against Paul. But your point seems pretty misleading and unfair!
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:31 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
So, he wants government out of private business, but he is willing to be reimbursed by government for his travel?

The government (paid for by the people who elected him) is his employer. It is perfectly reasonable that he not be expected to front business expenses from his own personal funds. Are you saying he should? That's absolutely ridiculous. Should YOU pay for travel you do on the part of your employer?

And if the airline is ready to upgrade him for free, then why should that bug you?
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Revelation
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
They are upset that Dr. Ron Paul gets upgraded to first class because of his frequent flyer miles and the Washington Post spreads b.s. that these are 'hidden' benefits because he does not actually pay for them nor do the taxpayers.

My reading of the article (which was written by Associated Press and carried in dozens of media outlets other than WP) says they are upset that he is buying:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 6):
Dr. Paul buys the YCA fares - they are treated as full Y fares, but are discounted significantly off the rack price. These are government negotiated fares done annually by the GAO.

... instead of straight Y fares:

Quote:

Paul charged taxpayers nearly $52,000 on the more expensive tickets, or $27,621 more than the average Continental airfare for the flights between Washington and Houston.

Both sides will be using "class warfare" to their advantage. We've already seen Gingrich call Obama "the food stamp President". However the GOP should be careful with that stuff. It's not like a groundswell of support for the wealthy is going to happen any time soon, so it's a losing issue for them.
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LMP737
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 25):
I have explained this to LMP737 at least once before, but apparently he is still interested in disseminating false arguments to attack Dr. Paul.

When have I made false arguments about him? Can you show me an example? When I discused Ron Paul with you it was regarding currency compettion. Did I say something that was not true then?

Your comments prove something about some Ron Paul supporters. If someone dares to say something they don't like about him they get nasty. Basically accusing people of being liars.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 25):
Some of these stories from the chron date back to 2007/2008 and have already been explained and dismissed, much like the newsletters that date back even further. Some people will just never let it go.

They are nothing like the newsletters. And when those articles were written in the Chronicle does not make them any less true or relavant.
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LMP737
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:57 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
Really, LMP737, if I'm wrong, please correct me. I don't want to provide any misinformation even if the truth is against Paul. But your point seems pretty misleading and unfair!

Here are the facts.

1)Ron Paul voted against Hurricane Katrina releif.
2)Ron Paul voted agaisnt Hurrican Ike releif.
3)Ron Paul said regarding Katrina releif "Why do people in Arizona have to be robbed in order to support the people on the coast?"
4)Ron Paul then ensures that $96 million is earmarked to help repair Hurrican damage in his home district.

To me that seems a bit two faced.
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PPVRA
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 29):
When have I made false arguments about him? Can you show me an example? When I discused Ron Paul with you it was regarding currency compettion. Did I say something that was not true then?

Pretty sure we've discussed this very topic before, not just currency competition.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 29):
Your comments prove something about some Ron Paul supporters. If someone dares to say something they don't like about him they get nasty. Basically accusing people of being liars.

Yeah no, don't try to play victim here. Most Paul supporters can name at least one thing they disagree with the man but don't go nasty on those people.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 29):
And when those articles were written in the Chronicle does not make them any less true or relavant.

What the articles paint is UNTRUE.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 30):
1)Ron Paul voted against Hurricane Katrina releif.
2)Ron Paul voted agaisnt Hurrican Ike releif.
3)Ron Paul said regarding Katrina releif "Why do people in Arizona have to be robbed in order to support the people on the coast?"
4)Ron Paul then ensures that $96 million is earmarked to help repair Hurrican damage in his home district.

To me that seems a bit two faced.

Nah, he was against the spending before the earmark, during the earmark, and after the earmark. He was against it the whole time. But if his district is going to have to shell out money in the form of taxes, they should at least benefit from the bill. How is that two faced? If it was up to him, no one including his district would have gotten money. If he didn't put in provisions, his district would be shafted every time a spending bill would come out. You think it would be fair for all the other districts to get money while his didn't while they pay taxes?

Now I think disaster relief is a legitimate government spending, so I disagree on that, but I don't see that is "two faced." If he was against these bills but was for a bill that gave his district spending, that passed but the other spending bills didn't, that would be hypocritical

[Edited 2012-01-30 10:42:17]
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Ken777
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:39 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 2):
I guess the same is done for all members of the House and Senate

And for other top tier FF millionaires. When I was top tier with AA (from 100+ K miles actually flown) my cheapest coach ticket would normally see me upgraded. One time our Representative (Steve Largent, previously pro receiver for Seattle) was upped after going back to his seat. He was somewhat embarrassed at the upgrade (actually a very nice guy), but it was the ExecPlat card that got the upgrade as much as the "current job".
 
PPVRA
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 30):
To me that seems a bit two faced.

And you still CONTINUE to put forward the same false arguments.

Unbelievable.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LMP737
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:51 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 34):
And you still CONTINUE to put forward the same false arguments.

And you CONTINUE not to show me where I have done so.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
Nah, he was against the spending before the earmark, during the earmark, and after the earmark. He was against it the whole time. But if his district is going to have to shell out money in the form of taxes, they should at least benefit from the bill. How is that two faced? If it was up to him, no one including his district would have gotten money. If he didn't put in provisions, his district would be shafted every time a spending bill would come out. You think it would be fair for all the other districts to get money while his didn't while they pay taxes?

And by voting against Hurricane Katrina relief what was he doing? He was telling another congressman that his or her district should not have the money they shell out in the form of taxes and should not benefit from a spending bill. That's what I find two faced. Telling someone else they can't have the money but his district can.

[Edited 2012-01-30 10:55:55]
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PPVRA
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 35):
And you CONTINUE not to show me where I have done so.

How about the very post I quoted, reply#30?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LMP737
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:04 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 36):
How about the very post I quoted, reply#30?

If you are going to call me a liar then I suggest you come up with something to support it.

P.S. Thank you for proving my previous point.
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DocLightning
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 32):
Nah, he was against the spending before the earmark, during the earmark, and after the earmark. He was against it the whole time. But if his district is going to have to shell out money in the form of taxes, they should at least benefit from the bill. How is that two faced? If it was up to him, no one including his district would have gotten money. If he didn't put in provisions, his district would be shafted every time a spending bill would come out. You think it would be fair for all the other districts to get money while his didn't while they pay taxes?

Now I think disaster relief is a legitimate government spending, so I disagree on that, but I don't see that is "two faced." If he was against these bills but was for a bill that gave his district spending, that passed but the other spending bills didn't, that would be hypocritical

I agree. I absolutely think that it is a government's job to provide disaster relief. In large-scale disasters, even those with private insurance are often not covered. I have an earthquake rider on my insurance (I live in SF) but if the quake is big enough, I might never get compensated. Also, in a disaster, there is a straight-up shortage of shelter. It's not a matter of "buy your own," but rather "there ain't none to buy." Providing emergency shelter for a fee is not really a profitable business model, so it really is a government responsibility.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:29 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 35):
And by voting against Hurricane Katrina relief what was he doing? He was telling another congressman that his or her district should not have the money they shell out in the form of taxes and should not benefit from a spending bill. That's what I find two faced. Telling someone else they can't have the money but his district can.

Yes, but he voted against both bills from what I read. As in he voted against the bill that paid his district, but made sure if it did pass, at least his district got something out of it. I could be wrong so please correct me if I am. Otherwise, I think we're reaching a stalemate  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
I agree. I absolutely think that it is a government's job to provide disaster relief.

Usually the best solution lies in the middle. I'd like to hear what Paul has to say about disaster relief. I only say this because Katrina was a disaster, an example of big government screwing things up. This might be one of Paul's ideas where I only agree with him halfway (like audit the Fed    but gold standard/competing currencies... eh, I don't think that's completely needed.)

I've probably dubbed myself as a Paulbot thanks to this thread, but I'm ready to stand up and disagree with him or call him hypocritical if I find an action to be hypocritical. I also won't defend him if I have no idea what I'm talking about  
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PPVRA
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
I'd like to hear what Paul has to say about disaster relief.

He would get rid of FEMA, but keep the SAR assets. A lot of what FEMA does has little to do with SAR (e.g. flood insurance program). Probably consolidate all this under the coast guard.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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DocLightning
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
I've probably dubbed myself as a Paulbot thanks to this thread, but I'm ready to stand up and disagree with him or call him hypocritical if I find an action to be hypocritical. I also won't defend him if I have no idea what I'm talking about  

I have to agree. There are a LOT of problems with Paul's ideology. But hypocrisy and inconsistency are not part of those problems. Nor is racism. Opposing federal anti-racism laws is no more racism than opposing anti-abortion laws is advocating abortion. There's a difference between saying that someone should be free to exercise racist policies and actually endorsing racism.

I'd much rather President Paul than President Gingrich or President Romney. I might not like his ideology, but at least it isn't blindingly stupid and inconsistent. He is a real, live, honest-to-goodness Conservative, possibly the only and last one in the entire GOP!
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):

Honestly I'd like him to get elected and "clean house" a bit. Everyone says he doesn't have the power to do anything yada ya, but really no president has power to do a lot of things. Him vetoing a bunch of bills adding a bunch of spending to our deficit would kinda make Congress thing twice about things, he'd be able to set some of our screwed up foreign policy straight, he could set the tone for smaller government and more state power, possibly help end the war on drugs / make it more like Europe's drug approach, help move towards a more sound currency, etc. I could keep going on.

Since he probably won't get elected maybe he can at least influence change in the GOP, maybe help give rise to a third party, do something good. Oh well, such is life
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DocLightning
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:09 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):

Honestly I'd like him to get elected and "clean house" a bit. Everyone says he doesn't have the power to do anything yada ya, but really no president has power to do a lot of things. Him vetoing a bunch of bills adding a bunch of spending to our deficit would kinda make Congress thing twice about things, he'd be able to set some of our screwed up foreign policy straight, he could set the tone for smaller government and more state power, possibly help end the war on drugs / make it more like Europe's drug approach, help move towards a more sound currency, etc. I could keep going on.

He could issue marijuana tax stamps, I think, by executive order. That would effectively legalize MJ.

And it would gain him the votes of hippies and stoners everywhere!  
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jetblueguy22
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:20 pm

I don't see the problem. He gets upgraded with miles he has earned through his job, people I work with do it all the time. People need to stop this class warfare business. He gets rewarded for using somebody's service.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
Why does he get frequent flyer miles to use any way he chooses when we are the ones helping to pay for his seat on those flights?

When my coworkers travel on his business they gets FF miles. So you are saying when they fly the company should get them because they paid for the ticket? How about when my parents pay for my ticket? Should they earn the miles? I don't think so. He gets his miles as a reward from the airline for picking them. I don't know why people feel like they're being cheated over airline miles.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: WaPo Class Warfare Via Ron Paul's FF Miles

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
by executive order

He is very against executive orders. He's criticized the recent use (by the current president and by GWB) of executive orders and also criticized the current GOP candidates for considering them. I guess it's not so much as he's against them, he just doesn't like the way they have been implemented recently, going around Congress and having the Executive branch pretty much have Legislative powers.

But yeah, Paul is for the legalization of everything, an often looked over candidate that will probably be the Libertarian candidate, Gary Johnson, is more along what you are saying, and what I think is pretty reasonable. Marijuana will be legalized, taxed, and regulated, while the other drugs will be treated in a more European style matter, not our harsh (and expensive) way of dealing with drugs
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