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Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:42 am

A judge has barred Alejandrina Cabrera from seeking a seat on a City Council in AZ after determining she did not have sufficient command of the English language to serve in the position. Fair or unfair?

First, please see the link below, then type "Cabrera" in the search box to see video of part of her language skills test in court:

http://www.kswt.com/global/video/fla...upplayer.asp?ClipID1=%C2%AD6659651

She's now appealing the decision:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...glish-skills-appeals.html#comments
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detroitflyer
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:22 am

From the video posted, she surely does not even seem to have a basic grasp of the language. It's not like it was a misunderstanding, the question was repeated 3 times.
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LAXintl
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:50 am

I hate to see someone with the legal rights to pursue public office be denied, however this case probably goes back to the joke of our failure to properly verify English proficiency prior to granting citizenship, which by the way is a legal requisite that USCIS is supposed to certify.
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chrisair
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:52 am

If this doesn't make someone want to visit San Luis, I don't know what will.....
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:04 am

I heard about this a few days ago... interesting. Is there any law or Constitutional clause requiring her to know English? If not, I see it as a 1st Amendment issue perhaps, but if the language barrier truly does hamper her duties, I hope the electorate would make that call...
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ltbewr
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:18 pm

This candidate was also challenging the lay offs of 12 employees, hiking up utility rates and to recall the Mayor due to those and other issues. That is probably why they are using the English language skills issue to discourage her candidacy.

Still almost all 'official' records of law making involve the use of American English as the in fact language so one must be able to understand it at least to a HS graduate level. Not fully understanding the laws and policies they are making and managing them in municipal politics can lead to serious problems. I suspect that majority of that border community's residents (legal and probably numerous illegals) are mainly or only Spanish speaking and they would feel more comfortable with a government leader who is more like them. Still, running a community is like running a multi-million dollar business and the inability to be fluent in English is inefficient and impractical.
 
seb146
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:20 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
Is there any law or Constitutional clause requiring her to know English?

Right next to the law that says we are a Christian nation, no doubt.

So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen? Is she of age? Those are the two questions that should be asked. I have seen nothing in the Constitution about language. If there is, please tell me.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):

So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen? Is she of age? Those are the two questions that should be asked. I have seen nothing in the Constitution about language. If there is, please tell me.

I don't get it - why does it have to be in the US Constitution? She's running for a city council seat. It could be in the city's laws, in the Council's bylaws, in the County's laws, in Arizona's state laws......

As it says in the article:

State law requires elected officials to know English, but Cabrera's attorneys claim the law doesn't define proficiency in the language.


Obviously it may not define proficiency required, as stated. But I just can't really find fault with the city for this determination, even if it is politically motivated.
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
why does it have to be in the US Constitution?

BECAUSE... it's our Constitution! This has probably been going on for a while and I'm just picking up on it, but our country passes laws that sometimes fly in the face of the Constitution (like the NDAA for example.) The Constitution is not there as a guideline, it IS the law.

If we need English speakers to be elected, pass a law or an amendment, don't just take the shady semi-unconstitutional route and say no she can't run.

Plus, I'm sure if it really as bad as people are making it out to be, she won't get elected. I'm sure she'll have a good translator and everything. You don't need to speak English to make good decisions.

Now if what she is doing violates a law, then I have no problem with her not running. But let's follow laws and the Constitution, not make random decisions
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detroitflyer
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:49 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
But let's follow laws and the Constitution, not make random decisions

The constitution does not set guidelines on who can run for city office, the only guidelines it gives for offices are of the Pres. VP, house and senate and maybe a couple others. The states have all rights not mentioned in the constitution.

Also, AZ has a law on the books saying English is their official language. Once again, there is nothing in the Constitution that bars AZ from making this law.
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting detroitflyer (Reply 9):
Also, AZ has a law on the books saying English is their official language. Once again, there is nothing in the Constitution that bars AZ from making this law.

yeah I guess I'm approaching it from a federal standpoint rather than a state. Hopefully AZ will follow their guidelines. Having English as the official AZ language does not necessarily mean that elected officials must be very proficient in it, as long as she conducts her business in English. With a translator, I don't see a problem. Again, I think the electorate won't vote for her if this really is a big issue that would affect her job
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vikkyvik
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
BECAUSE... it's our Constitution! This has probably been going on for a while and I'm just picking up on it, but our country passes laws that sometimes fly in the face of the Constitution (like the NDAA for example.) The Constitution is not there as a guideline, it IS the law.

If we need English speakers to be elected, pass a law or an amendment, don't just take the shady semi-unconstitutional route and say no she can't run.

Plus, I'm sure if it really as bad as people are making it out to be, she won't get elected. I'm sure she'll have a good translator and everything. You don't need to speak English to make good decisions.

Now if what she is doing violates a law, then I have no problem with her not running. But let's follow laws and the Constitution, not make random decisions

You may want to reread my reply:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
As it says in the article:

State law requires elected officials to know English, but Cabrera's attorneys claim the law doesn't define proficiency in the language.

There are probably thousands of laws that are NOT in the US Constitution. States, counties, cities, towns, etc. all have the ability to enact laws. They do not need to request a US Constitutional amendment to do so.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):

Yeah my mistake. I jumped to conclusions and thought the feds were involved...
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ALTF4
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:33 pm

Are we so damned politically correct these days that we can't use common judgement and require somebody speak English in order to make laws and other important decisions? If there's no law requiring English be used, how about Congress write all new laws in Spanish, or better yet, Hebrew. Can't read it? That's your problem - go find a translator. Oh, nuances got lost in translation? That's your fault.

It is about time to make English the national language, full stop. Businesses and people can do whatever they want in other languages, but official government business must be done in English. If they want to additionally provide other translations, they can, but not the other way around.

Asinine.
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flymia
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:13 pm

If she does not speak, read, and write English well she should not be allowed to run. Pretty simple I think. Here in South Florida you can imagine that it is a problem with county employees who don't speak English well or at all. Never seen a politician who could not speak it though. I have even had a problem communicating with a Police Officer in English! This is the US, people working on tax payer salries should all be required to speak, read, and write english fluently.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen? Is she of age? Those are the two questions that should be asked. I have seen nothing in the Constitution about language. If there is, please tell me.

The Arizona Constitution may say something, this is not a federal issue. States and cities can implement laws they like. Language is not a forbidden type of discrimination you can say. If it was race, sex, religion etc.. But its pretty obvious English is requried for the job. Just as any Airline Pilot needs to speak English well.
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ALTF4
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 14):
Just as any Airline Pilot needs to speak English well.

Oh yeah, thanks for bringing that one up. Where's the sh*tstorm over that? For the love of God why can't somebody speak Czech and get a job in ATC? That's discrimination, y'all. Just like these durned AZ people who are violating people's basic civil rights, ya'll.

/sarcasm
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
I hate to see someone with the legal rights to pursue public office be denied, however this case probably goes back to the joke of our failure to properly verify English proficiency prior to granting citizenship, which by the way is a legal requisite that USCIS is supposed to certify.

In this case though, she is a US citizen who graduated high school in Arizona. Talk about proof of the failure of an education system (you are supposed to graduate being proficient in the English language)

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
I heard about this a few days ago... interesting. Is there any law or Constitutional clause requiring her to know English? If not, I see it as a 1st Amendment issue perhaps, but if the language barrier truly does hamper her duties, I hope the electorate would make that call...

From an article I read on the issue:

Quote:
In 2006, Arizona passed a law that made English the official language of the state. Earlier, in 1910, Congress passed the Enabling Act, which allowed Arizona to become a state with certain requirements. Among them was one that addressed the English language.

"The ability to read, write, speak, and understand the English language sufficiently well to conduct the duties of the office without aid of an interpreter shall be a necessary qualification for all state officers and members of the state legislature," a section of the act reads.

And I see that you commented later on the state vs federal aspect of it, this is just FYI on what the decision is based on.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
This candidate was also challenging the lay offs of 12 employees, hiking up utility rates and to recall the Mayor due to those and other issues. That is probably why they are using the English language skills issue to discourage her candidacy.

As near as I can tell these are the reasons that started this ball rolling. It doesn't change the fact that she is deficient in her English language skills, sufficiently so so as to not be eligible for official duties.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
Still almost all 'official' records of law making involve the use of American English as the in fact language so one must be able to understand it at least to a HS graduate level. Not fully understanding the laws and policies they are making and managing them in municipal politics can lead to serious problems. I suspect that majority of that border community's residents (legal and probably numerous illegals) are mainly or only Spanish speaking and they would feel more comfortable with a government leader who is more like them. Still, running a community is like running a multi-million dollar business and the inability to be fluent in English is inefficient and impractical.

Without English language fluency I cannot see how someone could be an effective leader even in a town where the majority speak another languages as officials need to be able to communicate easily with the surrounding areas. It is probably one of if not the most important things that leadership does: Act as a go-between for the community and those around and outside of the community.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Right next to the law that says we are a Christian nation, no doubt.

So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen? Is she of age? Those are the two questions that should be asked. I have seen nothing in the Constitution about language. If there is, please tell me.

See my post above. The Constitution is not the only ruling law on this, other laws indicate a requirement and need for proficiency in English for public service. And if it becomes an issue I would fully support an "English is the official language" amendment. I absolutley support people knowing and learning multiple languages but there has to be a common base language. Also in this case if her ability to speak English is limited then she will not properly support (not just "represent) her constituents as she will need to have an interpreter (paid for by her constituents so it limits funding for other needed community issues) and will miss some elements of conversations (any translator will tell this happens) and could result in problems for greater community at large as it increase the chance of an error occurring.

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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:25 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
So she does not have a grasp of the English language. So what? Is she a citizen?

If she is a citizen, then yes, she is supposed to have a grasp of the English language.
 
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:21 pm

I don't understand the "states rights" people getting up in arms over local issues they want to project to the federal level. I was simply saving a step. Besides, Arizona was origionally a Mexican/Spanish colony. Just like California was. Heck, Alaska was Russian and most of the Midwest was French. We must make those official languages also!

There are people in Chinatown San Francisco who do government business every day that do not speak a work of English. Only Chinese. Should they be fired? Because they work with their constituants?
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Maverick623
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):

If she is a citizen, then yes, she is supposed to have a grasp of the English language.

        

I guess all those Puerto Ricans shouldn't be citizens either. Ordinary citizens can speak whatever darn language they want to. I do agree, though, to hold public office you need to speak the language the laws are written in.

She doesn't have a grasp of anything. I have never taken a day of Spanish lessons in my life, but I would sure as hell be able to understand someone (speaking as slowly as in the video clip) asking me where I went to high school. She probably wouldn't even be able to pass a Spanish proficiency test. She's just a pawn, make no mistake.


Then again, there's a possibility she deliberately "failed" the test specifically to challenge the law.
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
I don't understand the "states rights" people getting up in arms over local issues they want to project to the federal level. I was simply saving a step. Besides, Arizona was origionally a Mexican/Spanish colony. Just like California was. Heck, Alaska was Russian and most of the Midwest was French. We must make those official languages also!

How so?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
There are people in Chinatown San Francisco who do government business every day that do not speak a work of English. Only Chinese. Should they be fired? Because they work with their constituants?

If they cannot function in English then they really should be either released or required to learn English in a certain time frame. If I worked in Germany or Russia or Mexico or wherever I would expect the same. If a community spoke two languages officially, I would expect to have to know both languages in order to work effectively for the community.

It just isn't that big a deal. Learn the language(s) you have to learn.

Tugg
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flymia
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):

Do they do government business or work for the government? There is nothing wrong with government employees who have to speak different languages to do their job but they ALL should at least speak English fluently.

[Edited 2012-01-31 15:55:05]
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
I hate to see someone with the legal rights to pursue public office be denied, however this case probably goes back to the joke of our failure to properly verify English proficiency prior to granting citizenship, which by the way is a legal requisite that USCIS is supposed to certify.

This story was carried on a local radio show here last week. And, I have to admit she really didn't have much of an understanding of what she was being asked by the judge. It's a tough decision, things that used to preclude you from running from office were being a woman or being black, but those restrictions are long gone. But, the US has never declared an official language.
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 16):
In this case though, she is a US citizen who graduated high school in Arizona. Talk about proof of the failure of an education system (you are supposed to graduate being proficient in the English language)

San Luis, Arizona is a border town near Yuma. It's population is over 90 percent hispanic. It's also one of the fastest growing towns in Arizona. Alejandrina Cabrera reflects what many smaller border towns in Arizona, California, and Texas are - basically Mexican towns where illegal aliens have anchor-babies. I live in Arizona, and this is true from my experience here.

Arizona law is very clear - public elected officials MUST have command of the English language - she does not. I would question whether she actually graduated from an Arizona high school, unless all of the students there were Mexican and they were all tought in Spanish instead of English (which is a distinct possibility).......
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mham001
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
I guess all those Puerto Ricans shouldn't be citizens either.

Apparently, you have no clue about the (supposed) requirements of a naturalized citizen.
 
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:05 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
Apparently, you have no clue about the (supposed) requirements of a naturalized citizen.

Ehh...? What are you on about there? Puerto Rican's are US citizens, they have no need for "naturalization". And English is a required class in their schooling (though even so upon graduation their proficiency can be questionable or so my Peurto Rican friend tells me   ).

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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:24 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
I don't get it - why does it have to be in the US Constitution? S

Uh because it is.. Just like babies born to anyone in the US are automatic citizens is in the constitution i.e. Anchor Babies. Like it or not.
 
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
We must make those official languages also!

Many nations have several official languages, that doesn't mean everybody has to understand all of them, even if on the public payroll. I don't know if any has adopted new languages needed because of immigration, however.

I think the situation in the US is a bit out of control, and letting things continue will not help. If you have no incentive to learn English, why would you ? If everything you need, including official documents, is readily available in your own language ?

In my country, if you want access to social aids, you need to fill papers in French ; if you don't know French, get someone to help you, or learn it. If you want your driver's license, where nobody can help you (especially for the rules of the road test), learn it or don't drive. Some people won't make the effort anyway, but at least there's an incentive. And I've never seen someone born and raised in France that couldn't speak French.
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mham001
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:47 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 25):
Ehh...? What are you on about there? Puerto Rican's are US citizens, they have no need for "naturalization".

I never said one word about Puerto Ricans. They are not exactly "natuaralized" are they. For the pedantic, maybe my original quote should have said 'If she is a naturalized citizen, then yes, she is supposed to have a grasp of the English language.' Let's stay on topic.

Now, I assumed the politician in question is naturalized, which points to a problem with the failure to meet the basic requirements of naturalization. Since some are having a hard time with what that means, they are tested in English proficiency as part of the process. There is a chance though that she was born here and nobody bothered to teach her the language of the land. I could see her as trying to cross the line into an official dual-language nation. This attitude should be stopped in it's tracks.
 
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 8):
BECAUSE... it's our Constitution! This has probably been going on for a while and I'm just picking up on it, but our country passes laws that sometimes fly in the face of the Constitution (like the NDAA for example.) The Constitution is not there as a guideline, it IS the law.


And what is wrong with the NDAA?

The Constitution is a guideline, to be interpreted by the judicial branch of the govt.

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DeltaMD90
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 30):
And what is wrong with the NDAA?

The "indefinitely detaining US citizens" part

Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 30):
The Constitution is a guideline, to be interpreted by the judicial branch of the govt.

There's a world of difference between interpretation and contradiction. How can "indefinitely detaining US citizens" be even remotely Constitutional??

My main gripe with all this was I (incorrectly) thought it was the federal government trying to impose something on the states, something I'm generally against. Helps if I read a bit more into the OP's article rather than skimming  
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sprout5199
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 31):
The "indefinitely detaining US citizens" part
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-1...1540enr/pdf/BILLS-112hr1540enr.pdf


We have had this discussion here at work. Please read Sec 1021 (e) and sec 1022 (b)(1) of the above link.

I know this was a bit off thread, but I hate it when people just believe what other people say without checking the facts for themselves.

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AR385
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
English proficiency prior to granting citizenship
Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Is she a citizen? Is she of age?
Quoting mham001 (Reply 24):
Apparently, you have no clue about the (supposed) requirements of a naturalized citizen.

She is not a "naturalized citizen" she is American born. Raised across the border for whatever reason, but she was born in the United States. She is American by birth.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
She's just a pawn, make no mistake.

A pawn of who? what? why?

In the AMERICAN news I watched yesterday, they asked the Mayor wether this was a personal vendetta against her, since he was the one who filed the suit to preclude her from running for office (as a private citizen, not in his capacity as Mayor) That is a big clue. You have to be very naive, to think that the Mayor did not do this to get rid of an uncomfortable pest.

They also did a lengthy interview in the news and frankly, while her language skills are probably not the same as a native speaker, she is able to understand and speak English at an acceptable level. In any case, there is nothing that a few months of English intensive classes would not fix. It´s not like she has to learn Greek from scratch.

The bigger question here is, how can you prohibit an American born citizen, to run for office? I think that trumps your language skills not being at PhD level.

And no, I´m not writing this because of the flag next to my username. I just think it´s a dangerous, slippery slope when you cannot hold office in a country with no defined National or Official Language and you are a born citizen of that country.

Here in Mexico we have communities who´s Mayors or other elected officials don´t speak a word of Spanish, and yet, no one has questioned their ability to occupy elected positions.

Not speaking a language at literature level is not a synonim for being stupid.

[Edited 2012-02-01 13:43:22]
 
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):

A pawn of who? what? why?

Anyone from a group that wants Spanish to be made an official language, to La Raza. I don't know, and frankly (unless it's La Raza) it really doesn't bother me. Just a statement.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):

They also did a lengthy interview in the news and frankly, while her language skills are probably not the same as a native speaker, she is able to understand and speak English at an acceptable level.

Which leads me to believe that she intentionally flubbed her "exam" in court so she could file the lawsuit.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
In any case, there is nothing that a few months of English intensive classes would not fix.

  

Good luck. Let's just say people like that in Arizona: they oppose children being put into English immersion classes because they don't want their kids to speak English, as a way of forcing others to learn Spanish. They're sure as heck not going to do it themselves.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):

The bigger question here is, how can you prohibit an American born citizen, to run for office?

We do it all the time. Heck, to run for President you have to be 35 and living in the US for the last 14 years. That eliminates about a quarter of our adult population.

I don't agree with the Arizona law (any community that butt hurt about English being the only language won't elect a non-English speaker anyways).

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
I think that trumps your language skills not being at PhD level.

Now now, don't start exaggerating.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
I just think it´s a dangerous, slippery slope when you cannot hold office in a country with no defined National or Official Language

I wouldn't say that, but I don't like the xenophobia and racism that exists here either. I'm very, very pro-you-need-to-know-more-than-one-language person.
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
while her language skills are probably not the same as a native speaker, she is able to understand and speak English at an acceptable level

Have you watched the video?

She cant even answer where she went to high school. You can get a 6 year old to tell you where they go to school. Her comprehension is worse than someone entering the 1st grade.
 
AR385
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 35):
Have you watched the video?

No. I don´t know when the video was taken. I watched the interview last night. Wether she has improved since the video, I don´t know. But, in the interview I watched, her English was acceptable.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:41 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
Which leads me to believe that she intentionally flubbed her "exam" in court so she could file the lawsuit.

I had not thought of that. Would not be surprised.

Tugg
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Maverick623
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 35):


She cant even answer where she went to high school. You can get a 6 year old to tell you where they go to school. Her comprehension is worse than someone entering the 1st grade.
Quoting tugger (Reply 37):

I had not thought of that. Would not be surprised.

Watching the video again, it's clear she intentionally did poorly in court. Her vocabulary was quite good, and her grammar was about on par with a 4th year English learner. She was intentionally acting like she couldn't understand what the examiner was asking, but could somehow answer with decent English sentences.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:29 am

If indeed she is doing it intentionally screw her then for wasting everyone's time, and jail her for screwing around on the stand.
 
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 38):
Watching the video again, it's clear she intentionally did poorly in court.

How is it "clear" that was her intent - are you a mind-reader now?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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flanker
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:10 pm

Its so sad that common sense isn't so common any more. Instead it has been replaced with the disease that is political correctness.

Someone who doesn't have a grasp of the English language representing constituents and holding office in a State where by law she must have command of said language.

hmmmm....if you don't see a problem with that then go get your head checked out.


COMMON SENSE PEOPLE
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
Maverick623
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:22 am

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 39):
If indeed she is doing it intentionally screw her then for wasting everyone's time, and jail her for screwing around on the stand.

Wow. Maybe Rosa Parks should've been jailed for daring to fight a law she doesn't agree with and not just taking her punishment.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):

How is it "clear" that was her intent - are you a mind-reader now?

Yep. Maybe you missed the rest of the post where it's clear she has the vocabulary and grammar skills in her answers to understand what she was being asked. Her body language and the rhythm and tone of her voice strongly hinted at deception, and a very poor effort at it.

Trust me. I deal with people that really don't understand any English all the time, and I've dealt with people that refuse to communicate in English, and pretend like they don't understand in my previous job. I'm also very familiar with Arizona politics and how people deal with it.

Quoting flanker (Reply 41):

COMMON SENSE PEOPLE

God forbid there's different viewpoints. For example, is the law Constitutional? Does it violate civil rights? Does it violate any other laws? Is the law being applied unfairly as a vendetta against someone?

Common sense dictates that one continually evaluates the situation and looks at all sides, especially when disagreements arise.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 42):
it's clear she has the vocabulary and grammar skills in her answers to understand what she was being asked

It is? She does? How is that "clear" to you? Please be specific.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 42):
Her body language and the rhythm and tone of her voice strongly hinted at deception, and a very poor effort at it.

No disrespect intended, but your profile says "baggage handler" so I'm not sure what other credentials you may have to declare yourself an expert on deception recognition.

I don't think of myself as an expert in that field by any means however it certainly appears to me that she simply does not understand exactly what is being asked of her, and it's clear that at least one sitting judge agrees with that assessment.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
flanker
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:08 pm

The fact that this is even made into an issue is just idiotic.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
Maverick623
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 43):

It is? She does? How is that "clear" to you? Please be specific.

I was specific. Read it again. Oh wait:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 43):
No disrespect intended, but your profile says "baggage handler"

So you read it and assume that just because you think I merely sling bags for a living, that I have no experience in any other job, or that I've never studied anything in my life.

I'm taking the disrespect, and I'll dish it right back:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 43):


I don't think of myself as an expert in that field by any means however it certainly appears to me that she simply does not understand exactly what is being asked of her,

So somehow you being a ramp supervisor automatically makes you more qualified to assess her performance?

Dear lord, you are arrogant.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):

The bigger question here is, how can you prohibit an American born citizen, to run for office?

In pre-PC days common sense would be enough to suggest that if one doesn't speak the language it's not the best idea to run for a public office.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 33):
Here in Mexico we have communities who´s Mayors or other elected officials don´t speak a word of Spanish, and yet, no one has questioned their ability to occupy elected positions.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
 
AR385
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:46 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 46):
In pre-PC days common sense would be enough to suggest that if one doesn't speak the language it's not the best idea to run for a public office.

She speaks the language at a perfectly acceptable level. I would agree with you if her language skills were zero. They are not. Thus, your reasoning is incorrect.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 46):
Two wrongs don't make a right.


Meaning?

[Edited 2012-02-03 18:49:38]

[Edited 2012-02-03 18:50:01]
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
She speaks the language at a perfectly acceptable level. I would agree with you if her language skills were zero. They are not.

Perhaps perfectly acceptable to handle shopping for groceries at Walmart, but civil servant who basically makes living out of using a language, both spoken and written, should be held to a much higher standard.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
Meaning?

Just because there may be other places where taxpayers are content with public officials being paid to do their job without speaking and understanding the language does not give any justification to this case.
 
AR385
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 48):
Just because there may be other places where taxpayers are content with public officials being paid to do their job without speaking and understanding the language does not give any justification to this case.

That is your point of view. I respect it, but I don´t agree with it. Just because other places are more tolerant that some backwards part of Arizona does not mean the rest of the world is wrong.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 48):
Perhaps perfectly acceptable to handle shopping for groceries at Walmart, but civil servant who basically makes living out of using a language, both spoken and written, should be held to a much higher standard.

And where do you draw the line at that standard? Are you proposing a standardized test for English to everyone who is planning to run for office? Now that would be an idea. Hard as it is for many people to accept, the US is no longer a country made up of only white people, that speak college level English. Should all those millions that do not belong to that group be barred from office? I could see the point of that if the Constitution said English was the official language, but that´s not there.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Candidate Barred Over English Skills

Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 49):
Are you proposing a standardized test for English to everyone who is planning to run for office? Now that would be an idea.

I am proposing use of common sense. My commad of Polish is considerably better than her of English. I guess I should run for a mayor of WRO since that city was for centuries integral part of Czech Kingdom anyway.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 49):
Just because other places are more tolerant that some backwards part of Arizona does not mean the rest of the world is wrong.

This "tolerance" is just as misplaced as tolerance towards that infamous Air China pilot at JFK which is all over YouTube who, by your standards, probably has "perfectly accpetable" command of English.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 49):
the US is no longer a country made up of only white people, that speak college level English

Running out of rational arguments? Why not use the race/class warfare card as a last resort? Whether it's English, Spanish or Thai is irrelevent for the substance of the problem.

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