mham001
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Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:48 pm

Tesla unveiled its crossover yesterday, the Model X. It has some very impressive numbers as well as some interesting design features. Built on an extended Model S frame, they say it will be offered with 2 battery options with the range of the larger pack at ~280 miles. Seats 7, has 2 trunks, the front is cavernous as there is no motor in the usual spot. 0-60 in 4.4 seconds, the base motor will be 300hp with a second 150hp as an option. No torque figures have been released, although that should be easily computed. All wheel drive can be had with that second motor. Recharge time of 4 hours. Elon Musk says the turning radius is the same as a Mini Cooper. Price will range from ~$57k-90k.



More space than a minivan. Quicker than a Porsche 911 Carerra. The functionality of a minivan and the performance of a sports car. What could go wrong?

Well, some might say the practicality of the one feature most people will grasp, the swing-up doors.


How that will play out in snow country remains to be seen.

Another issue is price. Tesla opined that they would bring a car for the masses. $60+K does not exactly fit that category.
 
Mir
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:56 pm

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
What could go wrong?

Perhaps this:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
with the range of the larger pack at ~280 miles.

And how long is it going to take to recharge that? If it's anything over fifteen minutes, I don't really see the point.

-Mir
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mham001
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:58 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
And how long is it going to take to recharge that? If it's anything over fifteen minutes, I don't really see the point.

4 hours to fully recharge. I suppose that fails it, because everybody drives 281 miles a day.
 
Mir
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:09 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
because everybody drives 281 miles a day.

If I were going to spend that much money on a car of that type (i.e. one that can hold a lot of stuff), I'd want to use it on a road trip or two.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ALTF4
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:34 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
If I were going to spend that much money on a car of that type (i.e. one that can hold a lot of stuff), I'd want to use it on a road trip or two.

On the other hand, if I had the money to spend on a car of that type, I'd just rent another car when I have to drive more than 300 miles in a day.

Granted, I don't have money to spend on a car like that, so I'm not going to.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
If I were going to spend that much money on a car of that type (i.e. one that can hold a lot of stuff), I'd want to use it on a road trip or two.

At least in Denmark, it makes good sense to buy an electric vehicle since it is almost tax free, and there is free parking in the city. Normal tax on a car is 180% of its original value and then you also have to pay for the car itself of course. . So go figure  

[Edited 2012-02-10 13:16:36]
 
Mir
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 4):
On the other hand, if I had the money to spend on a car of that type, I'd just rent another car when I have to drive more than 300 miles in a day.

But then you couldn't show it off to your buddies.

Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

-Mir
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ALTF4
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
But then you couldn't show it off to your buddies.

Are you implying I'm such a hill-billy that I don't have friends within a 300 mile radius of me?  
Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

Spot on.
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swissy
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:11 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

Agree, do like the looks and I do hope that car will be reality. For us it could work just fine since we have 2 cars and 99% of the time only one is being used  

Cheerios,
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
If I were going to spend that much money on a car of that type (i.e. one that can hold a lot of stuff), I'd want to use it on a road trip or two.

You're point below is valid, no doubt, but charging stations are getting more and more convenient in places like Seattle or even across WA state in general. That said, very few vehicle trips are made over that distance. The last time I took a trip with a 1 way distance over 200 miles was last July. From Seattle I could drive to Vancouver, BC or Portland with that range. It basically has a full tank of gas range, and how many people go on a trip frequently enough to burn an entire tank of gas?

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):

Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

At $57-90K/vehicle I'd guess people buying this would have another car that looks just as nice. Off topic I know, but do all new electric cars have to have noise generators on them now?
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2H4
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
It basically has a full tank of gas range, and how many people go on a trip frequently enough to burn an entire tank of gas?

Agreed. I think it's another case of people wanting certain functionality because they might use it someday. 4-wheel-drive is similar...many people refuse to live without it because they might need it 2 or 3 times per year. To them, being prepared for those two or three potential trips is worth dealing with inferior fuel economy for the rest of the year, and more expensive maintenance over the lifetime of the vehicle.

In the case of electric vehicles like this one, some people will use similar logic and will opt for a less efficient vehicle that is otherwise identical. They might want to go on 2 or 3 longer trips every year, so they'll sacrifice fuel economy for the other 99% of their driving to accommodate those trips.
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Francoflier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:34 pm

It looks awfully like a Citroen DS5...




And it looks nice, but it's a bit pricey for a city car.
You could save yourself 30K and buy yourself a luxury compact.
30K buys you a lot of gas...
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BMI727
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
30K buys you a lot of gas...

And there is a big, big issue for all the electric cars.

Assume you could buy a Model X for $80k. A BMW X5 diesel can be had for $60k and the savings will buy enough $4.00 per gallon fuel to go about 100,000 miles.

A Mercedes ML diesel does even better. You could get one of those for about $55k, and the savings could take you up to 130,000 miles.

Of course, maybe performance matters too. In which case that $80k could buy you a nice sports car or sports sedan and an SUV.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
And it looks nice, but it's a bit pricey for a city car.
You could save yourself 30K and buy yourself a luxury compact.

Why would someone looking to buy a CUV with three row seating for 7 buy a luxury compact instead?
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cmf
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

The most realistic solution I've seen is where they standardized batteries and made them easily switchable. They had it setup so a robot did the job and it would take one or two minutes so essentially like filling up today.

I think this is a beautiful solution but can't see OEMs be able to agree on a standard so think it is doomed.

The other option is to accept that most days we drive well below a full charge and for those days we need more distance rent a different car.
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Recharge time of 4 hours.

That sounds ridiculously optimistic. That can't possibly be from a fully discharged state. No way. Many laptops take longer to charge than that.

What's your source? I searched over 10 articles on the car already and checked the official website and can't find a single mention about charge times.

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
What could go wrong?

I bet it weighs like a tank. Those batteries ain't light. Sure it may be fast in a straight but I bet it's a hog on the curves. Top Gear clearly showed how the roadster's heavy weight ruined the once epic handling the original platform had, which is borrowed from the Lotus Elise...

http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/electric-shocker
 
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:32 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 13):
Why would someone looking to buy a CUV with three row seating for 7 buy a luxury compact instead?

Why would someone buy a luxury CUV with 3 rows seating for 7 that can't go outside of town?

I'm sure even posh soccer moms do cross country trips once in a while...

But fine, even if in that case, you could still go for a 'standard' compact-ute and still get enough change to buy you years worth of gas...
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mham001
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:32 pm

A little too much is being made of the mileage. Let's say I need to drive SJ-LA. 5+ hours, just over 300 miles. I do it 3-4 times a year but rarely will I do it all at one time. There is generally always a food break. 1 hour will charge approximately 62 more miles. More than enough to get to LA and pushing the limits of what I want to drive in a day anyway.

That said, those mileage numbers Tesla gives are at 55 mph. I don't know what relevance that has, I could not drive I-5 at 55. Nor do they talk about weight in the car for that mileage. Realistically, my trip to LA would need a longer break in the plan.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
That sounds ridiculously optimistic. That can't possibly be from a fully discharged state. No way. Many laptops take longer to charge than that.

What's your source? I searched over 10 articles on the car already and checked the official website and can't find a single mention about charge times.
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/facts and several magazine articles. Tesla website says 62 miles worth of charge time per hour.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
I bet it weighs like a tank. Those batteries ain't light. Sure it may be fast in a straight but I bet it's a hog on the curves. Top Gear clearly showed how the roadster's heavy weight ruined the once epic handling the original platform had, which is borrowed from the Lotus Elise...

It may not be as heavy as you think, remember there is no ICE and no transmission. I thought I saw something about 4,200 lbs.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:07 pm

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
they say it will be offered with 2 battery options with the range of the larger pack at ~280 miles.

Big fail that would get me to the next town over from where I live but I'd then have to wait around for it too recharge before I come home again, until an electric vehicle can give me a 500 mile range it's going to be next to useless.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
4 hours to fully recharge. I suppose that fails it, because everybody drives 281 miles a day.

Some live a long way from anywhere, so yup I can easily drive 280 miles in a day if I need to. I also take my family on car holidays and have been known to tow things from time to time, what would the range be towing a 3500kg boat, bugger all I'm sure.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Why would someone buy a luxury CUV with 3 rows seating for 7 that can't go outside of town?

If the range they are advertising is correct at around 450 km on a full charge then I don't see why you are arguing that they are selling a vehicle that can't get outside of town. The majority of vehicle trips are within town anyway.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
Some live a long way from anywhere, so yup I can easily drive 280 miles in a day if I need to. I also take my family on car holidays and have been known to tow things from time to time, what would the range be towing a 3500kg boat, bugger all I'm sure.

Then someone with these driving habits obviously aren't who they're marketing this vehicle to. I could go buy a F-350 with a tow package, but realistically I'm only going to use it a few times a year. The market they're trying to market too is someone who would buy a Porsche Cayenne not a F-350.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 19):
The market they're trying to market too is someone who would buy a Porsche Cayenne not a F-350.

So people who buy Cayennes (hopefully me in the next couple of years) don't go on long drives or tow. Our next family vehicle (according to my wife) will be one of the following an X5/Cayenne/Q7/M Class/Touareg/Discovery or RR Sport, it needs to be able to tow a 2000kg boat, be able to get from where I live to Oslo (580km) in a day, it's then got to be able to get me, the family, and maybe the boat from Oslo to the Mediterranean coast in two days, my demands aren't high, they aren't much different form many others, I can't see the Model X getting close to being able to do what I want done. The Model X is a great big city car, it's not for someone who wants a Cayenne or similar.
 
mham001
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Why would someone buy a luxury CUV with 3 rows seating for 7 that can't go outside of town?

The very same people who use SUV/CUV 4x4s as grocery haulers with the intent of maybe someday driving to Tahoe. Thinking about it, this is the size in which there is to be had the highest percentage of fuel savings. Exactly the size vehicle we need to wean off oil first.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:33 pm

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 4):
On the other hand, if I had the money to spend on a car of that type, I'd just rent another car when I have to drive more than 300 miles in a day.

If you're gonna spend that kind of money on a car, one had better not have to rent a car for a roadtrip or weekend getaway. Sorry, but its one thing to spend $15-$20K on a small, fuel effecient car to get around town on a day to day basis but to spend 3 - 5 times that on a car that can't even get you to the cottage and back without a 4 hour re-charging break is just plain useless. If I'm gonna put that kind of coin down for a vehicle, I intend to drive it everywhere and not spend even more money at Budget and wait to see what I end up with.
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kingairta
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:55 pm

How much range is lost running ac or heat? Where are you going to charge it when you get where your going? If you do find a place will it be 110 or 220.

Novelty is all it is.

Now if they can come up with something similar to the Volt for a price comparable to a competitive conventionally powered car then they'll have something.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
The very same people who use SUV/CUV 4x4s as grocery haulers with the intent of maybe someday driving to Tahoe.

But will they buy this thing knowing that they can't drive to Tahoe, regardless of whether they do or not?

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 19):
If the range they are advertising is correct at around 450 km on a full charge then I don't see why you are arguing that they are selling a vehicle that can't get outside of town.

I just drove 450Km the other day on an 'errand' I had to run.
The city I drove to was 200Km away, plus the running around in the city, and boom, 450Km.
It was under 20 deg F that day so I had the heater on full blast the whole way, which is not a problem in a gas engine but would be a huge drain on a battery if I'd had to use an electric heater.

At the end of the day, I would have been stuck somewhere on the highway 50 klicks from home.

I'm not saying you can't get out of town, but you certainly can't go far away from it, and you'd better plan ahead if you do.

I'm not against electric cars, especially for driving around town, but let's face the facts: they're still far from practical when outside of it.
There might be a day when you can do a full recharge in minutes at any station across the country and drive over 300 miles on a charge with full climate control, but until then gas will reign king for better or worse.
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canoecarrier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
So people who buy Cayennes (hopefully me in the next couple of years) don't go on long drives or tow. Our next family vehicle (according to my wife) will be one of the following an X5/Cayenne/Q7/M Class/Touareg/Discovery or RR Sport, it needs to be able to tow a 2000kg boat, be able to get from where I live to Oslo (580km) in a day, it's then got to be able to get me, the family, and maybe the boat from Oslo to the Mediterranean coast in two days, my demands aren't high, they aren't much different form many others, I can't see the Model X getting close to being able to do what I want done. The Model X is a great big city car, it's not for someone who wants a Cayenne or similar.

I'm not debating that this vehicle is going to be everything for everyone, but if you have enough money to spend on a $100K car with room for 7 and 3 row seating you are more than likely going to have another $50K+ car in the driveway as well. One that could likely do everything you think you need to do 6 times a year. You're making this argument like you only have one vehicle.

I don't buy for one minute that anyone with a Cayenne is towing a trailer or driving 200 km everyday. Just like I don't believe that people with 4WD vehicles use 4WD more than a handful of times a year.
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ACDC8
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:10 pm

So here's a question ... if you have a car that can go from 0-60 in 4.4 seconds, you're obviously burning a lot more fuel than you would if you would accelerate in a much more moderate manner. So how does this work with electric cars? Do you drain the battery more/faster if you punch it for quick acceleration?
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BMI727
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
But fine, even if in that case, you could still go for a 'standard' compact-ute and still get enough change to buy you years worth of gas...

Not even a compact one. You could buy a luxury SUV and still have tons of cash left for gas.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
There is generally always a food break. 1 hour will charge approximately 62 more miles.

...because every Denny's has an outlet in the parking lot. Granted the infrastructure changes are far less than for hydrogen, but still.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
That said, those mileage numbers Tesla gives are at 55 mph. I don't know what relevance that has, I could not drive I-5 at 55. Nor do they talk about weight in the car for that mileage.

It's going to matter.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
The day I believe Top Gear's entertainment as a true representation of a car is the day I need to check in to a mental hospital. They have their agenda.

Except Top Gear is absolutely right in this case. In going from an Elise to a Tesla Roadster, the Lotus packed on 700 lbs. Essentially, they killed it.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
Exactly the size vehicle we need to wean off oil first.

We don't need to be forcibly weaning anything off of oil. If people want to tool around town in a vehicle that gets 5 mpg, it's their problem. If you want an electric car that badly, go buy one. (I hear there are plenty of Volts around looking for buyers) But don't try and force anyone else to buy electric cars because for many of us, they simply don't meet our needs.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:41 pm

This vehicle would probably be a success if it had a range extending fuel cell, the pure electric vehicle is only useful as a city runabout, which this clearly isn't.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 25):
One that could likely do everything you think you need to do 6 times a year. You're making this argument like you only have one vehicle.

I have two vehicles but only one is big enough to fit everyone, I can't fit everyone in my Countryman nor can I tow a boat with it, nor has it got enough luggage room to take the family away on a trip. Our next major purchase is probably going to be a weekend getaway house (very common in Norway almost everyone has one or access to one) where we would like to buy is about 3 hours from where we live, I'm going to be pushing to get there with a Model X if I've got a full vehicle and towing a trailer, plus there is a lot of uphill driving which will I guess place a larger strain on the battery.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:43 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 24):
I'm not saying you can't get out of town, but you certainly can't go far away from it, and you'd better plan ahead if you do.

Yes you are, because you said this:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Why would someone buy a luxury CUV with 3 rows seating for 7 that can't go outside of town?

Every argument I've seen so far in this thread goes completely against the real world driving habits of people. Yes, there are going to be people that this car won't work for, I readily admit that. But, the overwhelming majority of people who own cars don't use a vehicle to drive over even as much as 100 km a day. Here's the real data on US travel patterns:

U.S. daily travel averages 11 billion miles a day — 40 miles per person per day
The average US driver drives 29 miles a day
45 percent of daily trips are taken for shopping and errands (that means up the street, less than 10 miles)

http://www.bts.gov/programs/national...ld_travel_survey/daily_travel.html

In a two car household that buys "luxury vehicles" this will work. If you have this hypothetical need to tow a boat, RV or trailer 5-10 times a year or drive farther than 450 km a day...well get a big truck, buy another SUV, or one of those luxury compacts you talked about.
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swissy
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
Every argument I've seen so far in this thread goes completely against the real world driving habits of people. Yes, there are going to be people that this car won't work for, I readily admit that. But, the overwhelming majority of people who own cars don't use a vehicle to drive over even as much as 100 km a day. Here's the real data on US travel patterns:

  

Like I said already.... it would work in our case because we can flip the car if one of us has to drive excessively... no problem to install a 240v or higher charging station in our garage.

We average about 80km a day...

cheerios,
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
If you have this hypothetical need to tow a boat, RV or trailer 5-10 times a year or drive farther than 450 km a day...well get a big truck, buy another SUV, or one of those luxury compacts you talked about.

Why is it a hypothetical need, it's not, a lot of the people I work with jump into there cars on a friday afternoon and drive anywhere up to 400km to holiday home and ski huts nearly every weekend, why would they want an SUV type vehicle which wouldn't have the range to do this?

The Model X is pretty much a non starter since it won't be able to do what most folks want a vehicle like this to do even if they rarely do it.
 
swissy
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:30 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
The Model X is pretty much a non starter since it won't be able to do what most folks want a vehicle like this to do even if they rarely do it.

I would say it is the ignorance of the majority of people not willing to accept Model X would work in most cases   but hey it runs on electric    (agree, price or predicted price is high)

The only major draw back is it charging time.... electric cars did exist before gas... however they lost out as soon the gas cars came widely available... lots changed since then  

Cheerios,

PS also have a look at the MB GL with the diesellllll   lots of power/space/range and towing  
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting swissy (Reply 32):
I would say it is the ignorance of the majority of people not willing to accept Model X would work in most cases but hey it runs on electric (agree, price or predicted price is high)

That's it problem it's expensive and can't do what the vehicles it competes against can.

Quoting swissy (Reply 32):

PS also have a look at the MB GL with the diesellllll lots of power/space/range and towing

Very very expensive in Norway, well over 1 million NOK for the base model with no options, for that kind of money I'd buy a Range Rover before a GL, not that I could afford either.
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
Quoting swissy (Reply 32):

PS also have a look at the MB GL with the diesellllll lots of power/space/range and towing

Very very expensive in Norway, well over 1 million NOK for the base model with no options, for that kind of money I'd buy a Range Rover before a GL, not that I could afford either.

Holly cr... what if you received a GL as a "gift" lets say from Canada   payed by an anonymous person named KiwiRob  

cheerios,
 
cmf
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
But don't try and force anyone else to buy electric cars because for many of us, they simply don't meet our needs.

Who is forcing it on anyone? Don't want it, don't buy it. That simple.

But are the people who want it allowed to buy it without being told it can't do a lot of things they don't need?

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
Every argument I've seen so far in this thread goes completely against the real world driving habits of people.

  

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
This vehicle would probably be a success if it had a range extending fuel cell, the pure electric vehicle is only useful as a city runabout, which this clearly isn't.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
Why is it a hypothetical need, it's not, a lot of the people I work with jump into there cars on a friday afternoon and drive anywhere up to 400km to holiday home and ski huts nearly every weekend, why would they want an SUV type vehicle which wouldn't have the range to do this?

I know a lot of people who live like you describe. But not five of them live here in Miami. Here the range is plenty enough. It is plenty enough for driving the kids to school, soccer and what not. Even better, it has 7 seats so now friends can come along again. That was tough when everyone had to have Mazarati.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
The Model X is pretty much a non starter since it won't be able to do what most folks want a vehicle like this to do even if they rarely do it.

Again, have to disagree. Performance is plenty enough for most people here in Miami. Price is a different issue. But that isn't different from today. They people who will buy this car are already driving cars most people can't afford.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):

That's it problem it's expensive and can't do what the vehicles it competes against can.

It is not expensive. The people who will buy it here have gone through Cayenne, Bentley, Mazarati and are currently driving Panamera. This will be the most practical car they have had in ages. Not that practical matters.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:11 am

A while ago a test of electric cars was made here in Denmark. A few cars were put in the hands of "ordinary people" who commuted some 25km back and forth to work. The test was conducted during six months of the cold season.

It wasn't an expensive Tesla X, but a rather modest micro car with a 25-30 kW/h battery which could be charged overnight using a pretty standard household electric installation. And an advertised range of slightly over 100km.

The general consensus of the test drivers was that it was COLD! And it was pretty difficult to look out of the windscreen because of dew.

In order to make it home in the afternoon it was clever not to run the heating system. That wouldn't have been a problem during summer, but then those cars were not equipped with air conditioning.

When there was snow on the road, or worse - half melted snow, the the wheel drag increased to the point where they had to call rescue service to make it back home.

The special low drag tires on the cars were awful in winter conditions, and illegal in most other European countries in winter conditions. Snow tires were not available. If they had been available, then they would have increased the power consumption since good snow tires have considerably higher running drag on a dry road than ordinary summer tires. (Funny thing, unlike all neighbor countries, here in Denmark it isn't strictly illegal to drive in snow on summer tires - it's only stupid - it will change when the law makers find out).

As for the Tesla X, it would be nice if they gave us a few more numbers, for instance the battery capacity. But from the data given we can calculate some rough data.

A 7 seat full size car with exceptionally low air drag and exceptionally low drag tires on a dry road - roads flat as Texas - driving constantly 55 mph will require approximately 20kW power. Going not 55 miles, but 280 miles, that will be 110kW/h on the wheels. Assuming a 90% efficiency on the motor and power train that calls for a 120kW/h battery. That's heavy duty stuff!!! No wonder it is expensive.

Charging that at home in just four hours, well, that's possible. But that will require an electric installation which is roughly ten times bigger that what blows our fuses at an ordinary household installation. That installation will cost a nice little fortune in addition to the car. Still expensive, but way less expensive if you can accept a full charge to last 12 hours instead.

Electricity comes for free, well, almost. Not so much in my country where it is taxed like everything else, more so for households than industries. I pay US$ 0.39 per kW/h. Assuming 90% efficiency on the battery charger, and 90% on the battery itself a full charge runs on just under 150kW/h = $58.

$58 for 450km isn't too bad. That's roughly the same as my VW Golf 1.4 TSI with today's local gas price = $8.00/gallon. So if you pay less than $8/gal, then you'd better also have some cheaper electricity.

But what are the real figures when we drive up and down hills, start and stop in town traffic, run headlights, heating/air-con, windscreen wipers, and when we drive on snow using snow tires etc.? Is it less than half like the Danish test showed? 200km for $58 isn't a bargain.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
BMI727
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
Who is forcing it on anyone? Don't want it, don't buy it. That simple.

Except that the government subsidizes these things and raises CAFE standards and gas guzzler taxes. Where's my tax credit?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:25 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
Where's my tax credit?

Why should you get a tax credit for using old technology? Why should we not invest in alternatives?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
BMI727
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 38):
Why should you get a tax credit for using old technology?

Why should they get a tax credit for using new technology?

Quoting cmf (Reply 38):
Why should we not invest in alternatives?

If by "we" you mean car companies, they absolutely should since there is a lot of money to be made. If by "we" you mean the government, it shouldn't be done because that is not the government's business. It crosses the line between good regulation and bad regulation.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Why should they get a tax credit for using new technology?

You forgot to answer why you should get a tax credit for using old technology.

As to why new technology should get it. Because it is good for the country to direct resources in that direction.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
If by "we" you mean car companies, they absolutely should since there is a lot of money to be made. If by "we" you mean the government, it shouldn't be done because that is not the government's business. It crosses the line between good regulation and bad regulation.

Tesla is a private company.

Completely fail to understand why the government should not invest in making the country better. Think of government as a company with citizens as shareholders and you will probably understand better.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Why should they get a tax credit for using new technology?

Because it's worth encouraging investment in.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BMI727
Posts: 11094
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:16 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
You forgot to answer why you should get a tax credit for using old technology.

Well, they get one for buying a car, I should get one for buying a car.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Because it is good for the country to direct resources in that direction.

If the technology is really worthwhile, private entities will have no trouble directing resources themselves. Companies don't need the government to inform them which technologies are worthy of development.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Tesla is a private company.

...that got nearly a half billion in government loans. So have GM and Fisker (who just announced layoffs by the way).

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Completely fail to understand why the government should not invest in making the country better.

This isn't investing in making the country better, this is investing in cars. It crosses a line. If they want to make the country better go rebuild roads and hike speed limits up 30 mph.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Think of government as a company with citizens as shareholders and you will probably understand better.

Really? When do I get my dividend check? Can I diversify to protect myself from executive idiocy?  

See that's the problem. The government isn't a company and we aren't shareholders. The government is the government and should act as such, and not try to be everyone's fund manager. I can find other, smarter people to help me manage my money.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
Because it's worth encouraging investment in.

Good. Then you go invest in it and leave the rest of us to manage our money as we see fit. Seriously, this isn't rocket science.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9864
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:01 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
But what are the real figures when we drive up and down hills,

Luckily for you Denmark doesn't have any hills, it's flatter than Texas.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
start and stop in town traffic, run headlights, heating/air-con, windscreen wipers, and when we drive on snow using snow tires etc.? Is it less than half like the Danish test showed? 200km for $58 isn't a bargain.

With winter running increasing battery drain you'll probably have to plug it in every second night, it'll probably end up more expensive to run than a conventional diesel powered SUV, especially in countries with expensive electricity like Denmark and Norway.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:05 pm

Where to start....

Quoting swissy (Reply 32):
The only major draw back is it charging time....

I can't disagree with this point. I'm not going to be the first to go run out and buy an electric car, but if a company comes along saying you can go 450 km on a charge and I go and post government statistics about the average trip distance people in the US drive and I continue to hear how someone absolutely has to have the ability they need to tow a trailer, RV, boat or drive 500 km a day, they're arguing against real world data.

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
Who is forcing it on anyone? Don't want it, don't buy it. That simple.

Absolutely right. No one here is going to force anyone on this forum to buy one, why do you all feel like we're trying to make you?

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
The general consensus of the test drivers was that it was COLD! And it was pretty difficult to look out of the windscreen because of dew.

That's a valid point. And, it's one that if you're trying to get every bit of the 450 km they say you can travel on a full charge would be a problem, but if you look at the statistics I posted above you probably could run the heat or AC for the majority of the trips people make over a year.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
Not even a compact one. You could buy a luxury SUV and still have tons of cash left for gas.

Depends on which luxury SUV someone buys.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
We don't need to be forcibly weaning anything off of oil. If people want to tool around town in a vehicle that gets 5 mpg, it's their problem. If you want an electric car that badly, go buy one. (I hear there are plenty of Volts around looking for buyers) But don't try and force anyone else to buy electric cars because for many of us, they simply don't meet our needs.

Who's forcing you?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
until an electric vehicle can give me a 500 mile range it's going to be next to useless.

Again, that goes against all the statistics. If it doesn't work for you fine, don't buy one.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
mham001
Topic Author
Posts: 4187
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 24):
But will they buy this thing knowing that they can't drive to Tahoe

Actually, they could make it to Tahoe from SF, it is a major destination option for ~5 million people.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
If people want to tool around town in a vehicle that gets 5 mpg, it's their problem.

No, it is my problem too because I am subsidizing their waste.

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
It is not expensive. The people who will buy it here have gone through Cayenne, Bentley, Mazarati and are currently driving Panamera. This will be the most practical car they have had in ages. Not that practical matters.

Exactly. I missed in a previous answer, according to a writer at Automotive News who was at the event, Tesla is attracting the trendy nouveau riche, not so much the soccer moms. http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...e?AID=/20120210/OEM05/120219980/-1

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
A while ago a test of electric cars was made here in Denmark. A few cars were put in the hands of "ordinary people" who commuted some 25km back and forth to work. The test was conducted during six months of the cold season.

Maybe they should have used a better car. One of Tesla's main markets is Scandinavia. Maybe somebody can translate... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...layer_detailpage&v=U-fMmw17v7g

These people don't seem to have too much trouble.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tH_mSJC21f8

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
$58 for 450km isn't too bad. That's roughly the same as my VW Golf 1.4 TSI with today's local gas price = $8.00/gallon. So if you pay less than $8/gal, then you'd better also have some cheaper electricity.

Your electricity is quite high. Beyond that, your numbers are all significantly off because you made wrong assumptions in the beginning. Battery pack sizes are well publicized, 60 and 80 kWh. A full recharge will not require all that because battery draw will be limited to preserve them. How much Tesla dictates, I don't know but the Volt uses 50% and the Leaf ~80%.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
You forgot to answer why you should get a tax credit for using old technology.

The kid is 18 years old and stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the immense costs oil places on society. He's not worth the time, especially with statements like this....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
This isn't investing in making the country better, this is investing in cars.
 
flanker
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
4 hours to fully recharge. I suppose that fails it, because everybody drives 281 miles a day.
Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
What could go wrong?

There it is : $60,0000 for a 4 hour recharge at 280miles. Throw it in the garbage and start again.
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
flanker
Posts: 1407
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:51 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

Spot on bud!
Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Well, they get one for buying a car, I should get one for buying a car.

Because it is not given for buying a car. It is given to incentivise the alternatives that are good on a macroeconomic level.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
If the technology is really worthwhile, private entities will have no trouble directing resources themselves. Companies don't need the government to inform them which technologies are worthy of development.

LOL. You make the mistake to think what is good for companies is always good for the country.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
...that got nearly a half billion in government loans. So have GM and Fisker (who just announced layoffs by the way).

So what? Don't set unrealistic requirements. And spare us the Limbaugh blindfold logic.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
This isn't investing in making the country better, this is investing in cars. It crosses a line. If they want to make the country better go rebuild roads and hike speed limits up 30 mph.

No. It is about making the country better.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Really? When do I get my dividend check? Can I diversify to protect myself from executive idiocy?

The rules to select management are well established. If you don't like the dividends use the established processes to change it or move somewhere where things work the way you like and hope they will accept you.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
See that's the problem. The government isn't a company and we aren't shareholders. The government is the government and should act as such, and not try to be everyone's fund manager. I can find other, smarter people to help me manage my money.

Of course they are not a company, but you're wrong when you say we are not the shareholders. There are many differences in the rules of how they operate but for both the goal is to make the "owners" happy.

Biggest difference is that governments are creating environments that are long term beneficial for the people living in their jurisdiction.

Fortunately most people are smart enough to understand this and vote for politicians supporting these policies.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Good. Then you go invest in it and leave the rest of us to manage our money as we see fit. Seriously, this isn't rocket science.

It isn't rocket science, but a bit of economics will help.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4

Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
Actually, they could make it to Tahoe from SF, it is a major destination option for ~5 million people.

Tahoe is about 200 Miles from downtown SF, which means you'd have to leave it there for a charge for a few hours before attempting to go back.

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
Who is forcing it on anyone? Don't want it, don't buy it. That simple.

Exactly, but the issue there is whether enough people will be interested buy it to make it anything other than another anecdotal electric car attempt.
Still, I'm glad they're getting better.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
Yes you are, because you said this:

Let's not start picking on semantics.
I'm just not seeing the point of marketing such a car. no doubt some people will buy it, maybe the very wealthy who already own a Panamera and want something a little more trendy to show off their earth-loving edge to their neighbor.

Otherwise, the range limitation, lack of available charging facilities and the length of said charge make it a very uncompetitive product compared to the gas powered competition.
It will only appeal to the rich greenies as mentioned above, in fact, I'm sure De Caprio, Clooney, Diaz and all the other Prius drivers up in Hollywood have ordered one already.
Technology only imposes itself when it becomes more practical/economical than the one it replaces. That's the way it works. You can't ask people to change their habits just because we need electric cars, but make the electric car as practical and cheap as a gas engined car and they will come.

The other hurdle on the way of electric cars is taxes:
70 cents of every Euro I spend on gas goes my dear government (varies depending on countries, but the point remains).
If we all suddenly stopped driving on gas and used electricity, I'm fairly certain my dear government will want to get that money from me elsewhere. It's badly enough in debt as it is...
Now, I'm not worried, my dear government excels in finding smarter and sneakier ways to tax us, so at the end of the day, I'm unconvinced electric cars will make driving cheaper.
Thus remains the ecological advantage, which is that which least worries most buyers...

Some way to go yet.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.

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