Vertigo
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Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:05 pm



Great video review from EVO Magazine's Chris Harris:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=romf-G6CZ7g


$25K / Rear Wheel Drive / Under 2700 LBS / Limited Slip Differential
Really excited about this "Toyobaru." First new car in a long time that I both want and can afford.

Here's a couple links with more info:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...n-the-ft86-and-its-chief-engineer/
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/05/2013-subaru-brz-first-drive-review/
 
BMI727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting vertigo (Thread starter):

This is what Scion should have been about from the beginning. Just shows that Toyota can do something cool when they try. Now please bring back the Supra, just bring it in at 3400 lbs or so like the old one and it should blow the American muscle cars away.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:39 pm

Only asian car I've been somewhat interested in pretty much forever. However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine and AWD system. That could potentially be a pretty epic car.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:46 pm

Quoting vertigo (Thread starter):
Really excited about this "Toyobaru."

You could call it any of the following.

Soyota
Suyota
Subota
Subata
Subara
Tubaru
Tobaru
Toyaru
Toyoru
Toyotu
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BMI727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine

I certainly hope for more powerful versions, but I'm not sure they could squeeze the 2.5L engine from the STi into the BRZ. Whatever Subaru does, it's only a matter of time before TRD has a nice line of go-fast parts for the FR-S.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
AWD system

I don't want AWD. The extra weight probably wouldn't be worth it, and seeing as how they tried to ensure that the CG is as low as possible, may run into packaging issues as well. I'd just as soon leave it as RWD. Maybe KERS would be a nice solution.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Newark727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:03 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):


Only asian car I've been somewhat interested in pretty much forever. However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine and AWD system. That could potentially be a pretty epic car.

In Car and Driver's review they mentioned something about AWD being unworkable due to engine positioning. Still, more power is probably on the way.
 
Vertigo
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:26 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine and AWD system.

Unfortunately the EJ257 won't fit in this car. The FA20 sits significantly lower and is closer to the firewall than the STI engine. You'd have to get really creative with the placement of the engine mounts, turbo, inter-cooler, and intake/exhaust manifolds to make it work.
Both Subaru and Toyota have hinted at a power bump for the mid-cycle refresh, but neither have confirmed rumors about a turbo or supercharger.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting vertigo (Reply 6):
Unfortunately the EJ257 won't fit in this car. The FA20 sits significantly lower and is closer to the firewall than the STI engine. You'd have to get really creative with the placement of the engine mounts, turbo, inter-cooler, and intake/exhaust manifolds to make it work.

Interesting. Having done exhaust upgrades and what not on a EJ257 myself I would've thought there'd be plenty of room.
 
Vertigo
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:50 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7):
Interesting. Having done exhaust upgrades and what not on a EJ257 myself I would've thought there'd be plenty of room.

Note the distance between intake manifold on cylinders 3 + 4 and the firewall. No room for uppipe much less the turbo. The exhaust manifold, uppipe, turbo location, and downpipe would all have to be custom. Not saying the EJ257 swap can't / won't be done, but it'll be difficult and expensive.







[Edited 2012-02-13 16:52:00]

[Edited 2012-02-13 17:01:26]
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting vertigo (Reply 8):
No room for uppipe much less turbo. Exhaust manifold, uppipe, turbo location, and downpipe would all have to be custom. Not saying the EJ257 swap can't / won't be done, but it'll be difficult and expensive.

Ah yes. Now that you put them side to side it's pretty obvious.

I guess one way to do it would be to relocate the battery to the trunk, would still be a very tight fit of course. The one thing that surprised me about the Subies is how easy they were to work on. I hope that will carry on to this new car.
 
Vertigo
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 9):
The one thing that surprised me about the Subies is how easy they were to work on. I hope that will carry on to this new car.

You're right, that's one thing I absolutely love about Subarus. Though on the BRZ / 86 it's great to see how much effort went into making the car as small and light as possible. It's not much bigger than a Mazda MX-5!
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
I don't want AWD. The extra weight probably wouldn't be worth it, and seeing as how they tried to ensure that the CG is as low as possible, may run into packaging issues as well. I'd just as soon leave it as RWD

  

The whole purpose of this car was to be as lightweight as possible and to handle as close to OR better than the Porsche Cayman. Porsche was and is the target for the FR-S and the BRZ - at a HUGELY discounted price tag. Similiar to what Toyota has accomplished with the success of the Lexus LS series - S class/7 series size and comfort, more reliable, and more quiet - the original LS Lexus looked exactly like a S-class sedan when it was launched back in 1990, and was half the price.

At least the FR-S and the BRZ looks completely different from a Cayman. And Subie will offer a turbocharged version of the motor in the BRZ - Subaru management has stated to numerous auto press outlets that ALL of their future turbocharged motors will be based on the BRZ's engine. It may take a middle-life update of the BRZ in two or three model years for STI to shoehorn in the plumbing for the turbocharger, but I am sure the Southern California "tuners" are already working on a aftermarket turbo "solution" at this moment!
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BMI727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:14 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 11):
The whole purpose of this car was to be as lightweight as possible and to handle as close to OR better than the Porsche Cayman.

I doubt they'll beat the Cayman. That is the car that wouldn't be offered with a limited slip differential because doing so would make it faster than the 911.

For what it's worth, the first really bad weather day of the winter has utterly reaffirmed my belief that RWD is superior to FWD in the snow. You can accelerate/brake or you can steer at a given time, but not both. The car was plowing everywhere and driving was a point and shoot procedure. My Avalon could only negotiate a cul-de-sac at barely more than a walking pace.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 11):
It may take a middle-life update of the BRZ in two or three model years for STI to shoehorn in the plumbing for the turbocharger, but I am sure the Southern California "tuners" are already working on a aftermarket turbo "solution" at this moment!

Just wait for SEMA. I bet we'll see at least a half dozen FR-S/BRZs.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Kaphias
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
For what it's worth, the first really bad weather day of the winter has utterly reaffirmed my belief that RWD is superior to FWD in the snow.

...except on hills.
I'd love to have an AWD version of the Subie, but since that won't happen if I ever move somewhere where I know I could deal with RWD I'd certainly consider getting one. Great all around car.
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2H4
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:24 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
For what it's worth, the first really bad weather day of the winter has utterly reaffirmed my belief that RWD is superior to FWD in the snow. You can accelerate/brake or you can steer at a given time, but not both. The car was plowing everywhere and driving was a point and shoot procedure. My Avalon could only negotiate a cul-de-sac at barely more than a walking pace.

Sounds more like you need a good set of winter tires. That will do more for you than any drive configuration.
Intentionally Left Blank
 
BMI727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting Kaphias (Reply 13):
...except on hills.

I've never had a problem, and my mom's caprice is about the least tail heavy a car could be. Besides, having that weight hung over the front wheels absolutely blows for the other 360 days each year.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Sounds more like you need a good set of winter tires. That will do more for you than any drive configuration.

Regardless of tires, rear wheel drive is still superior. The only compelling reasons for front wheel drive are cost and packaging.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:27 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):

For what it's worth, the first really bad weather day of the winter has utterly reaffirmed my belief that RWD is superior to FWD in the snow.

Not a chance in hell. Last nasty winter storm I was in over 70% of all stuck cars were RWD.

Of course nothing beats AWD. I got to play around in a WRX with winter tires when DCs big snowstorm last year came around. It was unstoppable. We were the only car moving in a controlled fashion at all that night. That's an epic combination of tires and drive train.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Sounds more like you need a good set of winter tires. That will do more for you than any drive configuration.

  

[Edited 2012-02-13 20:40:19]
 
747400sp
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:30 am

It would be nice to see a four built on this platform. An affordable RWD Toyota sport sedan under the Scion name, would be great.
 
BMI727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:44 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 16):
Not a chance in hell. Last nasty winter storm I was in over 70% of all stuck cars were RWD.

In my experience cars that end up in the ditch have skewed towards the econobox and family sedan part of the spectrum. The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:40 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Regardless of tires, rear wheel drive is still superior.

In what respect is RWD superior? I've owned both, in snow it's worse, that's been proven by experts far smarter than you and I, in motorsport nope, where front and rear wheel drive's have run in the same classes front wheel drives have won championships, the Citroen Xsara kit car was able to win tarmac rallies in the WRC, Seat handed BMW a hiding with the front wheel drive Leon in the WTCC.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride

Depends on the driver, the road surface and the tyres, but it doesn't matter if its, front, rear or all wheel drive if you're going fast enough and lose traction your in the poo.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
In my experience cars that end up in the ditch have skewed towards the econobox and family sedan part of the spectrum.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out, there are simply far more front wheel drive vehicles on the road than premium/sports rear wheel drives.

All this talk about front v rear wheel drive and the traction advantages of rear coming from a bloke who can't even drive a manual.
 
2H4
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Regardless of tires, rear wheel drive is still superior.

Superior for whom? Everyone? Or just you?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride.

I actually find that to be the case with RWD more often than with FWD. And increasingly so now that virtually all new cars come equipped with stability control.

Out of curiosity, how many snowy winters have you driven in? And where were they?
Intentionally Left Blank
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride.

I actually find that to be the case with RWD more often than with FWD. And increasingly so now that virtually all new cars come equipped with stability control.

Probably because you don't know how to drive very well. (Don't mean to be insulting, but there it is). With FWD, the front wheels do everything, power and steering. In a RWD car steering can be done both front and rear (front with the wheel, rear with judicious use of power to induce either oversteer or understeer as needed.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):

Out of curiosity, how many snowy winters have you driven in? And where were they?

20 years living and driving in Switzerland.

The key of course is weight distribution. Sure, in the old days of 70/30 front weight bias on a RWD platform will be pretty awful in the snow. But modern designs like the BMW 3-series have had close to 50/50 distribution for almost 20 years now. And a limited slip differntial helps too (on FWD as well).

I remember driving my late-model 3-series (I had several) up and down snowed in mountain passes on normal tires, and seeing front wheel drive cars unable to continue (especially in turns) while I kept going.
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2H4
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Probably because you don't know how to drive very well. (Don't mean to be insulting, but there it is). With FWD, the front wheels do everything, power and steering. In a RWD car steering can be done both front and rear (front with the wheel, rear with judicious use of power to induce either oversteer or understeer as needed.

I'm quite familiar with the concept, and frankly, I don't appreciate the implication that I lack driving ability.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
20 years living and driving in Switzerland.

For what it's worth - 20 years living and driving in Wisconsin and Michigan (in the lake-effect belt). Vehicles in those climates have included a number of years with a 1966 Ford pickup with bald, bias-ply tires, and a Mazda RX-7.

My questions in the first part of reply #20 stand.

[Edited 2012-02-14 08:40:34]
Intentionally Left Blank
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
But modern designs like the BMW 3-series have had close to 50/50 distribution for almost 20 years now. And a limited slip differntial helps too (on FWD as well).

I remember driving my late-model 3-series (I had several) up and down snowed in mountain passes on normal tires, and seeing front wheel drive cars unable to continue (especially in turns) while I kept going.

Now you're having a laugh, my wife had a 2008 E91 3 Series Touring, with spiked winter tyres we often couldn't get from the street we live in up onto the main road, we had the same problem with the 2007 W203 C Class Touring we had before it, this was never a problem with the 2010 V70 or the VW Touran or my two MINI's, none of the FWD's we've owned have had spiked tyres either.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
Now you're having a laugh, my wife had a 2008 E91 3 Series Touring, with spiked winter tyres we often couldn't get from the street we live in up onto the main road,

Can't explain that, apart from the fact that my '95 325, my '97 328 and my '01 325 had no such problems, and I never used spiked tires (illegal in Switzerland), just good winter tires.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
BMI727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
In what respect is RWD superior?

Overall performance, weight distribution, handling qualities. The only real advantages for FWD are that it can be lighter, packed into a smaller space, and built more cheaply.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
Depends on the driver, the road surface and the tyres, but it doesn't matter if its, front, rear or all wheel drive if you're going fast enough and lose traction your in the poo.

You can't be an idiot no matter what you drive, but if you're competent, RWD gives you more control.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
All this talk about front v rear wheel drive and the traction advantages of rear coming from a bloke who can't even drive a manual.

It's all about performance. If the computer can shift faster than I can, I'm more than happy to let it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
In a RWD car steering can be done both front and rear (front with the wheel, rear with judicious use of power to induce either oversteer or understeer as needed.

  

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):
Superior for whom? Everyone? Or just you?

People who don't drive like idiots.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
Overall performance, weight distribution, handling qualities. The only real advantages for FWD are that it can be lighter, packed into a smaller space, and built more cheaply.

There are front wheel drive cars that will run rings around anything close to there price tag which is rear wheel drive, the problem is you live in the US and don't have access to the really great FWD's that most other countries have access to. Case in point the Ford Focus RS500 is one of the quickest cars point to point that you can buy at nearly any price.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):
It's all about performance. If the computer can shift faster than I can, I'm more than happy to let it.

But you can't shift yourself, you don't know how, you've never really experienced car control as it's supposed to be, so really you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
There are front wheel drive cars that will run rings around anything close to there price tag which is rear wheel drive, the problem is you live in the US and don't have access to the really great FWD's that most other countries have access to. Case in point the Ford Focus RS500 is one of the quickest cars point to point that you can buy at nearly any price.

Name a single racing series where RWD cars are allowed and where FWD cars are competitive (in the same class, for multiclass races).

Even in ice-racing, cars are either RWD or 4WD. FWD are simply not competitive, because you can't fling them around - they just understeer right into the snow walls.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
Name a single racing series where RWD cars are allowed and where FWD cars are competitive (in the same class, for multiclass races).

Current

World Touring Car Championship
British Touring Car Championships (RWD is allowed although BMW pulled out)
Any touring car championship running cars built to FIA S2000 specs.

List of cars which are eligible are:

Alfa Romeo 156
Audi A4
BMW 320i
BMW 320si
Chevrolet Cruze
Chevrolet Lacetti
Ford Focus ST
Honda Accord
Honda Civic
Honda Civic Type R
Lada 110
Lada Priora
Lexus IS200
Mercedes C200
Peugeot 307
Peugeot 407
SEAT León TFSI
SEAT León TDI
Toyota Auris
Toyota Corolla
Vauxhall Vectra
Volkswagen Scirocco
Volkswagen Golf
Volvo C30
Volvo S60

Previous championship included any running cars built to FIA SuperTouring rules, some of these championships were:

British Touring Car Championship
Italian Superturismo Championship
Swedish Touring Car Championship
Japanese Touring Car Championship
Super Tourenwagen Cup run from 94 to 99 after BMW and Audi pulled out of the DTM, it was won by front wheel drive (Peugeot 406 in 97) rear wheel drive (BMW 3er 94,95,98) and all wheel drive (Audi 96 & 99) cars.
European Touring Car Championship


Under Kit Car rules for rallying front and rear wheel drive were allowed, Ford started to develop a RWD Escort Kit Car they dropped this when they realised it wouldn't be competitive against the Citroen Xsara, Peugeot 306 and Seat Ibisa FWD kit cars, so they built a FWD instead.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:26 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
Super Tourenwagen Cup run from 94 to 99 after BMW and Audi pulled out of the DTM, it was won by front wheel drive (Peugeot 406 in 97) rear wheel drive (BMW 3er 94,95,98) and all wheel drive (Audi 96 & 99) cars.
European Touring Car Championship

Are we talking about the same class, power limitations etc? A 250 hp RWD car vs a 250 hp FWD car?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:36 pm

FIA S2000 specifications include the following:

Derived from production model, of which at least 2500 have been produced in the past year
Maximum of 2 liter (2000 cc) displacement
Normal Aspiration, Rally: 8500 rpm maximum, Circuit: 8500 rpm maximum for 4 cylinders, 8750 rpm maximum for 5 cylinders, 9000 rpm maximum for 6 cylinders.
All wheel drive is permitted in rally cars, but not in touring cars.
6-speed sequential gearbox (Control specification), or 5-speed MT gearbox retaining original gear ratios.
Front and rear McPherson suspension
No electronic driver aids
Must be for sale at a maximum price of €168,000

BMW ran a factory team in the WTCC until 2011, they haven't won it since 2007, the last 4 championships have been split 2 each for Seat and Chevrolet, both running front wheel drive.
 
BMI727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:17 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
Case in point the Ford Focus RS500 is one of the quickest cars point to point that you can buy at nearly any price.

Although it is slower than a Nissan 370Z or Corvette Grand Sport that could be had for the same or less money. Even a Shelby Mustang could give it a run for its money, although paying upwards of $50,000 for a Mustang is nearly as silly as paying upwards of $50,000 for a Focus.

Really, 0-62 in 5.4 seconds isn't that fast anymore.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 26):
But you can't shift yourself, you don't know how, you've never really experienced car control as it's supposed to be, so really you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

It's all about lap times and acceleration times, and sequential gearboxes have eclipsed manuals in that regard. The manual "purists" always play the performance card until it's pointed out that it no longer holds, at which point they fall back to "driver control." Of course, most decent sequential transmissions allow the driver control and only override it if he attempts to do something really stupid, which of course the god-like manual drivers would never try and do, so it's a moot point.

You like manual because you like it. It's what you prefer, and that's okay. You don't need a performance reason to like shifting yourself, but I care about performance, and increasingly better performance can be found with sequential manumatics.

By the way, I just read rumors today that Porsche is seriously considering offering the PDK in the 991 GT3, and maybe as the only transmission.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:18 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Really, 0-62 in 5.4 seconds isn't that fast anymore.

0-62 ain't everything, if you learn't how to drive a manual you'd realise that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Although it is slower than a Nissan 370Z or Corvette Grand Sport that could be had for the same or less money. Even a Shelby Mustang could give it a run for its money, although paying upwards of $50,000 for a Mustang is nearly as silly as paying upwards of $50,000 for a Focus.

Put it on a typical European back road and the RS500 will walk away from the Nissan or Vette, it's not all about 0-60, that's an American concept.
 
BMI727
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:41 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
Put it on a typical European back road and the RS500 will walk away from the Nissan or Vette, it's not all about 0-60, that's an American concept.

I bet either would beat the Focus around a track too. The Focus might compare favorably on a tight autocross circuit, but anything wide open and it will suffer.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
0-62 ain't everything, if you learn't how to drive a manual you'd realise that.

When it comes to the gearbox, acceleration is everything. It doesn't really matter whether it's coming out of a tight corner or starting on a drag strip: faster shifting is better shifting and modern sequential transmissions can shift faster than even the best drivers.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:33 am

All I can say is go out and learn to drive a manual before you spout off.
 
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Polot
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:18 pm

Just out of curiosity BMI727, what car do you drive?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10158
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:54 pm

I think he drives his mum's old Caprice, he's only a teenager.
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride.

Lies. Just like a proficient driver can use oversteer to his advantage, same can be done with understeer.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):
because you can't fling them around - they just understeer right into the snow walls.

Oh really? I've done it myself. A lot. And tell that to this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbr1K3uuOPk

Or this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1KLNiSPF1s

Or this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkQf9jpT9nk

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Even a Shelby Mustang could give it a run for its money

In a straight line. Sure. In a proper twisty track? No way.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):

Put it on a typical European back road and the RS500 will walk away from the Nissan or Vette, it's not all about 0-60, that's an American concept.

        

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):

When it comes to the gearbox, acceleration is everything. It doesn't really matter whether it's coming out of a tight corner or starting on a drag strip: faster shifting is better shifting and modern sequential transmissions can shift faster than even the best drivers.

No, it certainly is not. POWER delivery is what is important. So what if you have a dual clutch gearbox that shifts faster than an F1 car, if you don't time the shift correctly and do them all at the wrong spot at a turn, then you're going to end up throwing your car off balance and wasting precious seconds trying to correct your mistakes.


Might I add, by no means I'm Michael Schumacher, but I've done MUCH more racing than the average joe. Runs in the family.
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:41 pm

I do not care about what safer or drives better. A sports car should be RWD. They are meant to be driven for fun. If you get stuck in the snow to bad. It's a sports car and if you do not want to get stuck don't drive it in the winter.

This car and others like it are built for fun and not practicality. If you want practicality buy a RAV4 or Forrester.


GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
747400sp
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:16 pm

Look everybody! Motorcycle are RWD, speed boats are propelled from the rear and even jet skis are propelled from the rear, so to me, a true sport car has a RWD power train.


KiwiRob, if RWD was so bad, why most of worlds sport cars are RWD, and why are most of the luxury car makers flagships, are RWD? Now after looking at your page, I have to say you have good taste in women, but cars, that another story.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10158
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 39):
KiwiRob, if RWD was so bad, why most of worlds sport cars are RWD, and why are most of the luxury car makers flagships, are RWD?

RWD isn't bad, it's just crap in the snow, plus it annoys me when people don't have a clue about what they are spouting off about. Not all luxury car makers flagships are RWD, many are AWD.
 
MrChips
Posts: 933
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine and AWD system

Discounting the fact that AWD is just plain wrong in a lightweight car designed solely to be engaging for the driver, there simply isn't space in the Toyobaru to put in AWD. The engine, for one, sits almost entirely behind the front axle line, and is so low that there is no room for driveshafts (unless you go through the crankcase, which is impossible).

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
Seat handed BMW a hiding with the front wheel drive Leon in the WTCC.

That's because SEAT have exploited gaps and loopholes in the rules better than anyone else did. For example, they ran diesel-powered cars for the last few years, which have been given an artificial advantage over their gasoline-powered brethren. Even beyond that, this:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30):
or 5-speed MT gearbox retaining original gear ratios.

...is probably the biggest reason why BMW is struggling in WTCC. The spec six-speed sequential 'box is designed for transverse-mounted engines, which obviously won't work in a BMW, which uses a longitudinally-mounted engine. Therefore, they have to use what is essentially a factory-stock manual gearbox.

Quoting Kaphias (Reply 13):
...except on hills.
I'd love to have an AWD version of the Subie, but since that won't happen if I ever move somewhere where I know I could deal with RWD I'd certainly consider getting one. Great all around car.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
Now you're having a laugh, my wife had a 2008 E91 3 Series Touring, with spiked winter tyres we often couldn't get from the street we live in up onto the main road, we had the same problem with the 2007 W203 C Class Touring we had before it, this was never a problem with the 2010 V70 or the VW Touran or my two MINI's, none of the FWD's we've owned have had spiked tyres either.

I've said this before, but I've daily driven RWD BMWs for the last six years, and with a proper set of winter tires (studded tires are not always the most appropriate tire for winter conditions, FYI), I've NEVER had a problem with the worst that Canadian winter can dish out. This holds true even for my old E46 M3, which on the surface of things should have been about the worst possible winter car imaginable, but was actually quite competent in the winter.

Quite a few times I've made my 30-km commute on some of the worst roads you've ever seen in my BMW, only to find out the guy I'm flying with can't get out of his community in his AWD pickup truck/SUV.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 27):

Even in ice-racing, cars are either RWD or 4WD. FWD are simply not competitive, because you can't fling them around - they just understeer right into the snow walls.

  

I've been ice-racing for the last four years (but not this year, seeing as winter has apparently been cancelled), and while FWD is certainly useable in ice-racing (I race in a stock class with a Mk2 Golf GTI), the fastest classes are all RWD (not even AWD). Wonder why that is...?
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
BMI727
Posts: 11179
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:23 pm

Quoting poLOT (Reply 35):
Just out of curiosity BMI727, what car do you drive?

2000 Toyota Avalon. The most average car ever made.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
he's only a teenager.

Actually I'm not.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 37):
In a straight line. Sure. In a proper twisty track? No way.

How twisty is twisty? Depending on the track I think it would be a dead heat, the newer Mustangs do their best to overcome their heft. On a relatively open track the Mustang could be more than competitive, but the Focus would kill it at autocross. Not that I would ever drop $50k on a Mustang or a Focus.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 37):
if you don't time the shift correctly and do them all at the wrong spot at a turn, then you're going to end up throwing your car off balance and wasting precious seconds trying to correct your mistakes.

You can't be an idiot no matter what transmission you have. The fact is that when you want to shift, it's better to shift faster.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
LOT767-300ER
Posts: 8526
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:57 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 36):
I think he drives his mum's old Caprice, he's only a teenager.

Dont you drive a golf cart and something the Europeans have no clue how to make: a van?
 
B777LRF
Posts: 1473
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:23 am

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:29 am

For 99% of all drivers FWD is safer in slippery conditions 99% of times. Particularly when the car is fitted with a manual gearbox, allowing one to use the clutch and go around corners without traction being sent to the front wheels.

For the last 1% RWD is better, but unless you're a very serious racing or rally car driver with lots of experience, it doesn't apply to you - no matter how good a driver you may think you are. I drove go carts and Formula 1600 as a kid and in my early teens, and though I was not devoid of talent I wasn't good enough to make a career of. And for me a FWD car with a manual gearbox is the safest thing in slippery conditions, outside of an AWD of course. I drive a BMW 530d with an autobox, and even on the best winter tyres money can buy it's no fun in the snow - on normal roads that is. On a wide open expanse of flat nothingness, with the DSC switched off, it's good fun.

Back to the subject matter at hand, I'm a little non-plussed about the design of the Toybaru. But 200hp, RWD, limited slip diff and a weight of 1250kg looks mighty good indeed. Still, I'll wait for the Alfa 4C instead - looks a million times better, and Alfa does now a thing or two about making a car go at silly speeds around the bends.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
BMI727
Posts: 11179
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 44):
Still, I'll wait for the Alfa 4C instead - looks a million times better, and Alfa does now a thing or two about making a car go at silly speeds around the bends.

And three times the price.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10158
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:22 am

Quoting MrChips (Reply 41):
That's because SEAT have exploited gaps and loopholes in the rules better than anyone else did.

Not true BMW went out and built 2600 320si's, these came with a special engine designed specifically for racing, they did a pretty good job exploiting the loopholes themselves. Now BMW could have raced the 320d but didn't. SEAT didn't build a special variant of the Leon.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 41):
...is probably the biggest reason why BMW is struggling in WTCC. The spec six-speed sequential 'box is designed for transverse-mounted engines, which obviously won't work in a BMW, which uses a longitudinally-mounted engine. Therefore, they have to use what is essentially a factory-stock manual gearbox.

Not true either, the spec six speed also comes in a configuration for RWD, check out the specs for this S2000 spec 320si for sale.

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/32988/bmw_e90_s2000.html
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7962
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RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:13 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 19):
the Citroen Xsara kit car was able to win tarmac rallies in the WRC, Seat handed BMW a hiding with the front wheel drive Leon in the WTCC.

While true, it doesn't mean FWD made the difference. Maybe the RWD competition had less power/torque or was heavier, or the drivers were not up to par. Usually on tarmac rallies in WRC you need to make a lot of turns with the rear sliding, there FWD/AWD is better than RWD.

Also, both your examples use competitions were power is limited to an amount that is at the limits of what is doable in FWD (300HP). Imagine a FWD Formula 1 : not going to happen.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
MrChips
Posts: 933
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:56 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
Not true BMW went out and built 2600 320si's, these came with a special engine designed specifically for racing, they did a pretty good job exploiting the loopholes themselves. Now BMW could have raced the 320d but didn't. SEAT didn't build a special variant of the Leon.

When diesel power was first allowed in WTCC, it was granted a considerable advantage by the rules, much the same way the rules for LMP1/P1 cars favoured diesel power for many years (although not quite as dramatically). Recall that in the first full season SEAT ran a diesel in WTCC (2007), SEAT basically ran away with the title. Since then, their artificial advantage has been clawed back year after year, to the point where last year they were on largely equal standing with the gasoline-powered cars.
Time...to un-pimp...ze auto!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10158
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ

Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 47):
While true, it doesn't mean FWD made the difference. Maybe the RWD competition had less power/torque or was heavier, or the drivers were not up to par. Usually on tarmac rallies in WRC you need to make a lot of turns with the rear sliding, there FWD/AWD is better than RWD.

There haven't been any RWD cars competing in the WRC since the Lancia 037, although Lotus will campaign the Exige R-GT in some of the tarmac rounds of the WRC this year. Anyway the Xsara was a naturally aspired 4 cylinder with around 275hp and limited torque, the WRC cars of the day had 300hp turbo motors with mountains of torque.

Quoting MrChips (Reply 48):
When diesel power was first allowed in WTCC, it was granted a considerable advantage by the rules

BMW could have exploited those same rules as well, they chose not to, it still doesn't get away from teh fact the SEAT won 2 WTCC championships with a FWD, they also won some earlier races with with a petrol engined Leon, Chevy won there first WTCC with a petrol car, last year they won it in a diesel. BMW could race a diesel, there is nothing stopping them, I'm really surprised they haven't.

For 2012 season most teams will be running 1.6 litre turbos, basically the same spec was the current WRC cars, so the BMW teams are using the same motor as the WRC MINI Countryman.

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