redflyer
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IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:39 pm

Didn't see this coming. Apparently, a company in China is claiming the trademark to the iPad and is trying to stop shipments of the device out of China. Already a lower court has sided with the claimant.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46380126...business-us_business/#.Tzpw-lz2arV
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Revelation
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:45 pm

What goes around comes around...

Yeah, I know it's not the same as patent infringement, but hey, karma is karma...
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mt99
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:51 pm

Funny how China - Copyright Infringement Central - is making these claims.

In any case - interesting stuff!
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Aesma
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):
Yeah, I know it's not the same as patent infringement, but hey, karma is karma...

With the current definition of a patent and what Apple is fighting over in court (like the effect of a digit gesture or the look of an interface), it's pretty much the same.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:21 pm

It's effectively a trademark squatter having tricked Apple into a corner, and Apple apparently being sloppy when they thought they acquired the trademark earlier.

Apple have earned their success, but with success come parasites.
 
redflyer
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
Apple have earned their success, but with success come parasites.

  

The claimant is seeking $1.6 billion. They would never have seen a fraction of that amount had they kept the trademark and done something with it themselves. They are trying to leverage Apple's success to their own benefit with legal wrangling instead of through innovation.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):
Funny how China - Copyright Infringement Central - is making these claims.

I don't think the irony is lost on anyone.
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LAXintl
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:57 pm

I love it....

Quoting redflyer (Thread starter):
Didn't see this coming.

Well you should off. Some domestic sales were banned recently in China.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):
What goes around comes around...

  

Apple loves to be the bully these days. Nice to to see others try to stick it right back to them in return.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Apple loves to be the bully these days.

…by not willing to freely share the fruits of their own labour with shameless copycats, some of whom are trying to bully Apple into giving up what's rightfully theirs?

That's putting things backwards.
 
YokoTsuno
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 2):
Funny how China - Copyright Infringement Central - is making these claims.
Even if China is the biggest copycat in the world, this is hardly of any relevance if a company used the name iPad before Apple did. Ultimate it's some court, probably politics, and God-knows what who decides who was first.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
Apple have earned their success, but with success come parasites.

That's correct. Roughly 30 years ago the parasite was you guessed it... Apple when it copied the GUI for their Lisa computer from Xerox. Not to mention this.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1047_3-6108901.html

Claiming credit for something someone else did is probably as old as humankind. If you have doubt about that you should join my company   It's just a game and the best player wins. It's as simple as that.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 8):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 4):
Apple have earned their success, but with success come parasites.

That's correct. Roughly 30 years ago the parasite was you guessed it... Apple when it copied the GUI for their Lisa computer from Xerox.

Sorry, but that old myth is completely wrong even just by itself and doesn't even remotely fit what I was talking about.

Xerox' pioneering but still very rudimentary GUI implementation (the concept was even older and wasn't invented at Xerox) was about as far removed from Apple's Mac OS as Nokia's Symbian was from iOS.

Completely incomparable to the very close ripoff Android represents relative to iOS.

Xerox' implementation was also anything but successful – it fell flat in the market so completely and so painfully that even many PARC developers defected from Xerox to Apple.

In effect Apple took an unsuccessful implementation as an inspiration and from that created a completely different implementation on their own, believing against evidence from the earlier product's failure that there was still merit in the basic concept, just not in the way it had been implemented.

By contrast, Google took Apple's wildly successful iPhone as a template and imitated it as closely as possible.

So if you're attempting a dig at Apple, at least do it properly. This one was a complete dud.

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 8):
It's just a game and the best player wins.

The best player sometimes wins, as in many sports. And whether foul play can lead to a cheater winning depends a lot on the referee.

[Edited 2012-02-14 16:40:34]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
Sorry, but that old myth is completely wrong

About Apple getting the basis for their GUI from Xerox Palo Alto Research Center? That's a known fact - Apple didn't come up with it all on their own.
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Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:35 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 10):
About Apple getting the basis for their GUI from Xerox Palo Alto Research Center? That's a known fact - Apple didn't come up with it all on their own.

Read my post again – the concrete inspiration for doing a GUI at all and some of the concepts did indeed come from Xerox, but most of the actual Mac OS GUI was indeed developed at Apple, and has subsequently become the basis of almost all mouse-operated GUIs since.

Almost none have been based on the actual Xerox implementation (and even those few are debatable).

And as I've mentioned, the basic concept of a GUI was also not invented at Xerox but had already existed before their implementation.

It is such a convenient fiction that Apple had "stolen" or "copied" the Mac OS GUI from Xerox, but it just happens to be based on false assumptions and on ignorance of what Xerox actually had.

Most people simply assume that Xerox had pretty much exactly the Mac GUI at that point and Apple merely copied it from them. They'd be in for quite a reality shock if they were to actually operate a Xerox Star in real life to see how far it was removed from what everybody takes for granted since Apple introduced the Macintosh (and pretty much everybody copied its GUI since then).

Apple did in fact put substantial effort in developing the original Macintosh GUI from scratch, just with some inspiration from Xerox PARC (which Apple officially paid for, by the way).
 
mham001
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
Completely incomparable to the very close ripoff Android represents relative to iOS.

That's right. 100%. The way Android stole that Siri idea when they put Google Voice on the original droid. How dare they.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:13 am

Klaus this one is for you  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW0DUg63lqU

'Good artists copy, great artists steal' - Steve Jobs

'We have always been shameless about stealing great ideas' - Steve Jobs

Even Steve Jobs admits it.. the only one in denial is you..  Wink

[Edited 2012-02-15 02:15:06]
 
Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:25 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 12):
The way Android stole that Siri idea when they put Google Voice on the original droid. How dare they.

Siri has little to do with the simple fixed-phrase voice command systems both Android and iOS had before that. Siri is a free-forn contextual dialog system, not a fixed-phrase command system as the older ones were (I've had that kind of system in my iPhone 3GS almost three years ago as well – it's a very different deal).

And you're beside the point anyway – that Android was a rip-off of iOS remains a fact even with selected features being earlier on Android (such as voice dictation).

iOS bas not revolutionized the smartphone market due to indivdual features, but due to its user interface and its conceptual design, which Google closely imitated with Android right away (they had modeled Android after Blackberry and Symbian right up to the iPhone presentation, then immediately and radically remodeled it to imitate the iPhone instead).
 
Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:55 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 13):
Even Steve Jobs admits it.. the only one in denial is you..
What, exactly, do you think he "admitted" there?

Apple did rip off another product wholesale where, exactly?

There is a very large difference between getting inspiration in a field that had been served badly and unsuccessfully and then creating something unique and making it a success where there had been none (see the Macintosh being created with some inspiration from the very different Xerox Star, or the Apple II, or the iPod, or the iPhone, or the iPad, or the iTunes Music Store or ...) vs. simply imitating a successful commercial product so that some of the success might rub off as well with no or little imagination (see Android being something completely else right up to the presentation of the iPhone, then immediately being turned into a direct imitation of the iPhone).
 
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 15):

Excuses, excuses. Even when Steve Jobs is the source, you still find a way around with some bs story.

Not buying it.
 
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:11 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
.....even many PARC developers defected from Xerox to Apple.

And to other places but Apple felt their "borrowed" software had more right to life than others and even back in the early '80s spent more on litigation than others.

The bully tactics are not new.

Whilst you may feel that Apple are protecting their IP(and in some cases they quite legitimately are) they have over decades used their quite formidible legal resources to bulldoze competitors out of the markets they consider ther domain.
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Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 16):
Excuses, excuses. Even when Steve Jobs is the source, you still find a way around with some bs story.

You're not arguing the point. Innuendo may be enough to keep emotional predispositions going. but the actual facts are a bit more complicated (see above and below).

Quoting stealthz (Reply 17):
And to other places but Apple felt their "borrowed" software had more right to life than others and even back in the early '80s spent more on litigation than others.

I'm still waiting for any evidence that Apple did in fact "borrow" any substantial product to the extent Google did with Android.

I really invite you to look hard at the Xerox Alto/Star system and to check how closely it resembles the Macintosh Apple developed from its inspiration – and how it doesn't.

The difference between the Xerox system and the Macintosh was vast and the Macintosh was a substantial new development.

By contrast, GEM, Windows and the other Mac OS imitations were close copies of the Macintosh UI.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 17):
The bully tactics are not new.

If they had been going against really original developments done with substantial creativity, you might have a point. They just weren't.

It's not "bullying" when you're defending what you have actually created yourself. Please research the actual systems which existed back then and how they came about – this is not nearly as simple as people make it out to be in order to justify preconceived perceptions.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 17):
Whilst you may feel that Apple are protecting their IP(and in some cases they quite legitimately are) they have over decades used their quite formidible legal resources to bulldoze competitors out of the markets they consider ther domain.

They have been going after imitators quite aggressively. Still quite a difference to Microsoft who aggressively went after innovators in abusing their monopoly power (which Apple never had with the Macintosh).
 
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
You're not arguing the point.

I just don't want to waste time on such a useless discussion. Steve Jobs admitted that they [Apple] have always been shameless about stealing great ideas.

End of discussion. Really.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:19 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 19):
I just don't want to waste time on such a useless discussion.
Actual arguments to a point are never "wasted". You just don't seem to have any.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 19):
Steve Jobs admitted that they [Apple] have always been shameless about stealing great ideas.

Which is a completely different thing from simply imitating other products wholesale.

Example for "stealing a great idea": "Hey, look at what Xerox did! They actually implemented that bitmap-based, mouse-operated user interface that's been under research for decades! Okay, they made a real mess of it and it's barely usable as they did it, but the fundamental idea still has merit. Let's create one that actually works!"

Example for imitating a successful product: "Have you seen the iPhone Apple has just presented? Our whole approach with Android – imitating Blackberry and Symbian – was all wrong! We need to have something just like that – throw away all the user interface we've done so far and let's imitate the iPhone instead!"

Notice the difference? Among other things, it is in extensive development work put into the first Macintosh vs. a quick redesign of Android to mimic the iPhone after it was presented.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 19):
End of discussion. Really.

You mean you're out of arguments. So noted.
 
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:32 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 20):

You get the final word. Happy now?  
 
Stealthz
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 20):
Steve Jobs admitted that they [Apple] have always been shameless about stealing great ideas.

Which is a completely different thing from simply imitating other products wholesale

Oh, Klaus you do make me laugh!!

How is it different??

..And no you did not answer it before

Stealing V Imitating.. you really do have fruit juice running in your veins don't you.
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Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:31 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 22):
How is it different??

I have extensively answered that above already if you care to read.

In short: The difference is in the amount of original innovation going into the respective product vs. basic conceptual inspiration and actual prior art.

Again: Have you ever bothered to actually look at what Xerox did really have back then? And not just static screenshots but the actual operation of the Star/Alto by itself and then by comparison to the first Macintosh?

No? Then why are you still basing claims on unfounded assumptions?




Back to the actual topic:

Chinese customs officials say import, export ban on iPad would be 'difficult'

Quote:
Proview Technology (Shenzhen) chairman Yang Long-san told Reuters on Wednesday that Chinese consumers' love of Apple products and the size of the market would make such a ban unwieldy. Lawyers for the company said on Tuesday that they had filed requests to block imports and exports of the iPad, a move that could grind worldwide sales of the device to a halt.

"The customs have told us that it will be difficult to implement a ban because many Chinese consumers love Apple products. The sheer size of the market is very big," Yang said.

[…]

Proview sued Apple over the iPad trademark in China last year, and Apple has had little success in fighting back. The iPad maker believes that it purchased the rights to the trademark in China years ago through a deal with Proview's Taiwanese division.

“We bought Proview’s world-wide rights to the iPad trademark in 10 different countries several years ago,” Apple spokeswoman Carolyn Wu said this week. “Proview refuses to honor their agreement with Apple in China.”

Proview has responded with a complicated argument asserting that a subsidiary in Shenzhen owned the China rights and was not present at the negotiations.

[…]

A settlement from Apple could help Proview International Holdings, the parent company of Proview Technology (Shenzhen), reverse its current fate. The company is in danger of being de-listed from the Hong Kong stock exchange and has run into financial trouble in recent years.

Looks like a dishonest last-ditch effort to reverse a previously made deal in order to extort more money than they had agreed on before.
 
mercure1
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:22 pm

At the end of the day Apple are as quilty if not maybe even more culpable than anyone else in the technology field about "borrowing" ideas or technology.

What has helped Apple in recent times the huge bank account it has to either buy or bully others. Just this week news is out that a Taiwanese hardware manufacturer was strong armed into stop helping other PC vendors in making ultra-thin notebooks at the threat of loosing all its Apple business.

And to show that Mr. Jobs is no angel, the unsealed US FBI files released recently repeatedly indicated that many questioned his honesty and that he would with ease twist the truth and distort reality in order to achieve his goals.

So yes if Apple wishes to bully folks, and try to catch them on perceived patent or contract issues, sooner or later people will do the same right back to them.

I'm sorry, but behind the shinny logo, there seems to be much more sinister reality.

[Edited 2012-02-15 06:29:15]
 
Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 24):
At the end of the day Apple are as quilty if not maybe even more culpable than anyone else in the technology field about "borrowing" ideas or technology.

Really? What concrete facts support that judgment?

Where did they "borrow" the Apple II?

The Macintosh?

The iMac?

The iPod?

The iPhone?

The iPad?

The iTunes Music Store?

There are differences between the major players in the IT field – it is not by complete accident or just by ruthless maneuvering that Apple got where they are now.

Apple never operated in empty space – they always based their developments on existing technologies, of course. The thing is just that they consistently and repeatedly made major leaps beyond what everybody else had at the respective time. Everybody else could have done that, but did not. Apple did. That is the difference, and the substantial number of major leaps they achieved rules out that it could have been a mere fluke.

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 24):
What has helped Apple in recent times the huge bank account it has to either buy or bully others. Just this week news is out that a Taiwanese hardware manufacturer was strong armed into stop helping other PC vendors in making ultra-thin notebooks at the threat of loosing all its Apple business.

Competition exclusion clauses are perfectly normal and are contractually agreed upon all the time. It is only now with Apple that people suddenly discover standard practices as something supposedly new and outrageous which had actually been in use all along.

Quoting Mercure1 (Reply 24):
And to show that Mr. Jobs is no angel,
Was not. And was never claimed to be anyway.
 
YokoTsuno
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:05 pm

I think we're going to be in for some excitement in the coming weeks.

http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ws/Asia/Story/STIStory_767228.html

Image you walking into a shop and asking for an iPad. "Would that be a Chinese or a US iPad Sir?" This is beginning to look like the Budweisser story.  

Let's see what Klaus' point of view is on this.
 
sprout5199
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:34 pm

Think this will be solved just by Apple telling China that Taiwan will now make all Apple products and Apple will not sell to China.


Dan in Jupiter
 
redflyer
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting YokoTsuno (Reply 26):
I think we're going to be in for some excitement in the coming weeks.

I can't imagine this is going to blow up...I think it would hurt China more than it would hurt Apple or the U.S. If China puts some teeth into this then they are going to have to clean up their own house with regards to IP infringements. IP rights remains a huge sore point in trade between China and the rest of the world.
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Tugger
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):
karma is karma...

No, no.... Karma is a BITCH!  
Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
In short: The difference is in the amount of original innovation going into the respective product vs. basic conceptual inspiration and actual prior art.
Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 27):
Think this will be solved just by Apple telling China that Taiwan will now make all Apple products and Apple will not sell to China.

The supply chain is in China, that was what that article was about that was discussed a few weeks ago here. Apple can't really do what they are doing anywhere else.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 28):
I can't imagine this is going to blow up...I think it would hurt China more than it would hurt Apple or the U.S.

The rumor is that China is using this to push back on Apple to make them ease up on their "supply chain/Foxconn" work environment investigating. Because that is the real power of China's manufacturing: "flexible" work and environmental arrangements.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
mham001
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Thu Feb 16, 2012 5:59 pm

From what I've read, the labor to manufacture the Ipad in the US would cost $36 more than the Chinese version. Expect Apple to continue to receive pressure to move away from it's slave labor agreements. Bring Apple back home.
 
BlueElephant
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:53 pm

Nobody answered this question in the previous thread so i'm asking here:

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 47):
Question - Android has had a slide down notification bar since its first versions. Apple recently added this in IOS5, who copied who in this case? and if it's Apple, why are they being so hypocritical.

Another question mostly for Klaus:

If this quote:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 13):
'Good artists copy, great artists steal' - Steve Jobs

Is true, please tell me:

Are Google (android), "Great Artists", becase (you think) they stole?
Or is Steve Jobs wrong?

It can't be both.
 
cmf
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:15 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
I'm still waiting for any evidence that Apple did in fact "borrow" any substantial product to the extent Google did with Android.

How is IOS not a copy of Windows Mobile if Android is a copy of IOS?
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:30 pm

Watch & learn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhjVi...-vrec&context=G2adfcafRVAAAAAAAAAQ

When it comes to stealing ideas in the IT industry, it goes in all directions. End of story.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPad: Chinese Company Seeking Export Ban

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 32):
How is IOS not a copy of Windows Mobile if Android is a copy of IOS?

Quite a legitimate question; I hope I'll find the time to answer it later on.



 
Update: ProView should be pretty screwed by the emergence of written evidence proving that the main company was in fact aware of and consenting to the trademark sale to Apple:

Take a Look at Some of Apple's Evidence in Proview iPad Dispute - John Paczkowski - News - AllThingsD

Together with another suit in Hongkong Apple had already won in the matter, ProView isn't looking too good:

Apple gets Hong Kong court’s favor in “iPad” trademark suit | VentureBeat



Quote:
The financial clues leading up to Proview’s bankruptcy emerged, including a stop on the sale of its stock on the Hong Kong stock exchange. And since all the Proview entities existed under Yang Rongshan, Judge Poon called foul:

“Here, the conduct of all the defendants demonstrate that they have combined together with the common intention of injuring Apple and IP Application by acting in breach of the Agreement. Proview Holdings, Proview Electronics and Proview Shenzhen, all clearly under Yang’s control, have refused to take any steps to ensure compliance with the Agreement so that the China Trademarks are properly assigned or transferred to IP Application (Apple’s third party trademark purchaser). Instead, they attempted to exploit the situation as a business opportunity for the Proview Group by seeking an amount of $10,000,000 from Apple.”

He went on to say, “It is plain the defendants had the necessary intent to injure Apple.. and their conduct will cause damage to them. Accordingly, I am satisfied that there is clearly a serious question to be tried for the claim of conspiracy.”


[Edited 2012-02-18 18:01:04]

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