columba
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:03 am

German President will give TV statement on 11 am

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/17/wo...rmany-president-scandal/index.html
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racko
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:23 am

Finally. It's about time.
 
TransIsland
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:41 am

Now, the question is, will Merkel's CDU nominate a genuinely presidential candidate this time, or will she park another potential up and coming, ambitious and power hungry competitor at Bellevue to avoid a challenge to her leadership of the party?
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na
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:52 am

He hasnt committed a crime, and if there would have been any corruption I´d still be surprised. Too many dogs are a hare´s death. And much is just blown-up press hysteria.
But in the end iis own fault not to step back from "little" favours of rich "friends". And all this mainly because of this ugly boring house in a provincial village. Very poor.

Now I hope the hunt for Mr. Dieckmann starts, I bet journalists could find a lot of dirt in his backyard.
[quote=TransIsland,reply=2]Now, the question is, will Merkel's CDU nominate a genuinely presidential candidate this time, or will she park another potential up and coming, ambitious and power hungry competitor at Bellevue to avoid a challenge Are there any? Merkel reminds me a bit of the reckless Kohl in this respect, she doesnt let a flower in the garden grow higher than herself.
 
NoUFO
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting CNN:
It took three rounds of voting in the Reichstag, or German parliament, before he won enough backing from lawmakers to assume the role.

Reichstag?!   
Whoah Nelly, it is Bundestag or perhaps Reichstag Building. Even that would not be correct, because the parliament does not elect the President. The Bundesversammlung does


Oh, and I am happy he's gone. After all it wasn't "just" the scandal itself but rather the way he handled the situation.
I am just not happy that we now have another early retiree who gets € 200.000 per year.

[Edited 2012-02-17 04:30:00]
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PanHAM
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:01 pm

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 2):
potential up and coming, ambitious and power hungry competitor at Bellevue to avoid a challenge to her leadership of the party?

There aren't any left, so don't worry. Mutti is the unchallenged number 1 , even cher Nicolas acknowledges that and his successor will very quickly get the message or he will sing in the Lady's choir, mon dieu.

Quoting na (Reply 3):
He hasnt committed a crime, and if there would have been any corruption I´d still be surprised. Too many dogs are a hare´s death. And much is just blown-up press hysteria.

Exactly. An unprecedented media campaign, there have been similar campaigns before but they never kicked a president out of the office. For all of those who applaud, his fatal sentence in one speech was, the the Islam belongs to Germany. How wrong he was.

Now the DA can start his investigation in which he has to prove that Wulff did not reimburse that media entrepreneur in cash. Even if he hadn't this simply cannot be proved. Hence, the whole matter will never go to court as there is nothing punishable.

After all, how stupid must a DA be to believe that for a lousy € 200,00 worth of hotel accomodation a (the he was) prime minister of a Bundesland can be bribed to approve a state surety for a 5 million bank loan
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columba
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:58 pm

Now , I wonder who will be next target of Germany´s media they already had Westerwelle, Gutenberg and Wulff on the list. Okay Gutenberg and Wulff had dirt on their hands (the one more than the other) but the way the media was after them left a bad taste in my mouth........
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Klaus
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
For all of those who applaud, his fatal sentence in one speech was, the the Islam belongs to Germany. How wrong he was.

No. He was simply correct. There are german citizens and even people "just" living here for decades and thus still contributing to our country who happen to be muslims, at least nominally and culturally if not always actually religiously.

We've pretended that people who happen to be muslims somehow can't possibly be a part of Germany in any way, and that pretense had to be called off officially.

Germany is not a "muslim country". It isn't even a "christian country" as such any more. But as much as catholics and protestants are part of it, so are muslims.

Formally ackowledging this reality is one of the few positive things Wulff has done in his term.

He also addressed the nazi terrorism more or less the right way.

But that he has left a consistent trace of rather sticky chumminess with "friends" with whom he has seemed to trade favours in his former political life in Lower Saxony is the other side. He has certainly damaged the office and tarnished the reputation of the country by sticking to his office even in the face of strong evidence for questionable conduct. His attempt to threaten and manipulate the press (even if it was just the Bild tabloid) should have been immediate grounds for stepping down.

His few achievements pale in comparison to the sordid mess of his endlessly delayed resignation.

Good riddance – at least now Merkel can't attempt to ram through yet another partisan candidate. That ship has sailed – and hit a cliff.

Twice now, actually.
 
PanHAM
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:24 pm

Well Guttenberg was never charged nor put on trial. The case was closed against payment of € 20.000,00 which, we can assume, is below that what would go into the registry (the threshold here is 90 days equivalent pay) One can assume that Gutti makes more than € 222,00 per day.

The main purpose was fulfilled anyhow, the man was taken off the political agenmda, at least for the time beeing. Not very democratic BTW, the people should have that right in democratic elections, not self appointed plagiate watchdogs.


with Wulff it will likely be the same and he should not enter into any deals with the DA, he should go to court, if the DA thinks he has enough to make a case, and ffight for a clean release.

BTW, in Germany people are innocent until proven guilty, both names here have not been proven guilty for anything.
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Quokkas
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:30 pm

May I ask a question? OK, I just have  

There was a request that immunity could be lifted so that further enquiries could be made into a number of other allegations. Now that Wulff has resigned, does he automatically lose immunity or does it still have to be officially lifted?
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NAV20
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:31 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 6):
they already had Westerwelle, Gutenberg and Wulff on the list. Okay Gutenberg and Wulff had dirt on their hands (the one more than the other) but the way the media was after them left a bad taste in my mouth........

Have to ask why you feel that way, columba?

As far as I'm concerned, the only appropriate status for politicians (especially 'appointed' ones) is that they should always be 'beyond reproach.' It's quite clear that Wulff did not 'qualify' (I don't know about the other two). So it's entirely appropriate that he should be fired - and that Merkel should have to face criticism for having appointed him?

So I don't see why you have a 'bad taste' about the media? Surely they're just doing their job, exposing corruption and bad faith? As far as I'm concerned, a 'free press' remains the best and most relevant safeguard all the Western democracies have?

Plenty of countries in the world where this sordid episode would never have seen the light of day. I'm glad that I don't live in one of them. Hope, on reflection, that you'll agree that you're fortunate that you don't live in one of them either?
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na
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
No. He was simply correct. There are german citizens and even people "just" living here for decades and thus still contributing to our country who happen to be muslims, at least nominally and culturally if not always actually religiously.

We've pretended that people who happen to be muslims somehow can't possibly be a part of Germany in any way, and that pretense had to be called off officially.

Germany is not a "muslim country". It isn't even a "christian country" as such any more. But as much as catholics and protestants are part of it, so are muslims.

Of cause he was right with this. There are millions of muslims in Germany with German passport, even if most were not born her. Only fools can deny that or want to drive them away. But also only fools would wish that they become even more. Germany is culturally a Christian country and should remain so. Islamic tendencies should never become part in official German belongings. Imho they should ask every Muslim applying for a German passport "in conflict, what comes first for you, the German law, or Allah?" If the latter is the answer, no German passport should be issued.
 
NoUFO
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:48 pm

Ah yes, the popular 'blame-the-media' game.

May I remind some people here that Wulff announced his resignation a day after a request by a prosecutor for Parliament to lift the President's immunity from prosecution? It wasn't a reaction following the public's ongoing pressure (public - not just that of the press!). In other words you say the prosecutor, after months of doing nothing, is now doing the press a favor?

I don't say, the press' role was always commendable, but it is their job to be the watchdog of the powerful, and I want a press that scrutinizes every minute detail.

Besides, Wulff has lied beyond imagination, has thus lost the confidence of a large part of the population - definitely more than 50 percent - and can no longer represent Germany. It has probably been the first time in our history as a republic that, when the President invites 200 people over to Bellevue Palace, only 100 will show up. The others probably prefered to see a dentist or get a vasectomy ...
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Klaus
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:53 pm

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Germany is culturally a Christian country and should remain so.

It has christian traditions, yes, but also jewish and muslim ones, if to a smaller scale. And all of them are part of what Germany is today, as much as some people have attempted to eradicate traditions and even people who they objected to.

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Islamic tendencies should never become part in official German belongings.

You're confusing islamic with islamistic.

Radical evangelical or catholic christians give me the creeps just about as much as islamists do.

On the other hand, there are many moderate muslims whose attitudes effectively align with most moderate christians and unreligious people and who are willing to make constructive contributions to our community.

It's not the origin or label of people's affiliation, it's their actual attitudes that matter.

I'd have no problem with a christian, jewish or muslim president even though I'm areligious myself. But I have a problem with narrow-minded, authoritarian and hateful people in whatever capacity.

Wulff was relatively open-minded for his political background. That was a decent basis for becoming a good president. Too bad that his character was lacking with regard to his willingness to take material favours wherever he could.

He was thus effectively incapacitated about commenting on the greed, recklessness and complacency of some people as one reason for the financial crisis and the economical consequences we all have to bear. He was just not fit for his office.
 
NoUFO
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Germany is not a "muslim country". It isn't even a "christian country" as such any more. But as much as catholics and protestants are part of it, so are muslims.

Right! Muslims are part of our society, have long been part of our society, and this is not going to change anytime soon - why would it?

This somewhat controversial statement was Wulff's best moment, if not the sole reason why we had a well-paid President after Köhler resigned.
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PanHAM
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 9):
Now that Wulff has resigned, does he automatically lose immunity or does it still have to be officially lifted?

Yes, the moment he said that he resigns from office he has lost all powers and whatever comes with the office. He will still get security, an office, a car, a secretary but immunity from prosecution is lost. The DA can question him immediately over that € 200 question.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 14):
Right! Muslims are part of our society, have long been part of our society, and this is not going to change anytime soon - why would it?

Yes, but BILD did not like that. This sentence triggered the campaign. Just to explain for those who did not or did not want to understand what I wrote.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
ut I have a problem with narrow-minded, authoritarian and hateful people in whatever capacity.

Pooh, compare that statement with what you wrote in the same reply:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
He was thus effectively incapacitated about commenting on the greed, recklessness and complacency of some people as one reason for the financial crisis and the economical consequences we all have to bear. He was just not fit for his office.

or are capitalists unworthy people that should be shunned ? I mean, not all are like Mr. Mauschelmeier.....
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Klaus
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German President Wulff To Resign

Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:17 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
or are capitalists unworthy people that should be shunned ?

There is a fundamental ethical difference between being hostile against people on the basis of who they are and being critical of people for what they've done in violation of their responsibilities.
 
PanHAM
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German President Wulff To Resign

Sat Feb 18, 2012 7:38 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
There is a fundamental ethical difference between being hostile against people on the basis of who they are and being critical of people for what they've done in violation of their responsibilities.

Interesing, I am not hostile to anyone. I respect immigrants as well as managers. Esepcially, i do not have any prejudice to particular groups. You can talk about individuals and you find a..holes across the board in every group of people, but never generalise as you do.

Taking the example of Mr. Wulff, who stumbled across particular brilliant species of a..holes like Mr. Mauschelmeier and others, I guess we could agree on that. i would never agree woith you on blaming or labeling whole groups.
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NAV20
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German President Wulff To Resign

Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:39 pm

In legal terms, I think the 'essentials' of this case are contained in the press article quoted in the opening post:-

"The scandal involves alleged political favors and financial impropriety while he was state premier of Lower Saxony.

"The Hanover prosecutor's office called Thursday for the government to waive the president's immunity from prosecution, in light of the evidence it had gathered.

"Following extensive analyses of new documents and the evaluation of further media reports, the Hanover Public Prosecutor's Office now has sufficient factual evidence and therefore grounds for initial suspicion of receiving bribes or being granted advantages," it said in a statement.

"(The Office) therefore proposes to the president of the German Parliament that immunity for the federal president be waived."


As I said earlier, politicians must always strive to be 'beyond reproach.' That story proves that, in the opinion of the 'regulators,' on the available evidence, Herr Wulff has a case to answer.

So, in my opinion, it is entirely appropriate that Herr Wulff should stand down. There is no way at all that he could remain president when likely to be charged with a criminal offence.

From here on, he is entitled to a fair trial - and, if he is acquitted, to due 'restitution' (up to, but not necessarily, IMO, including, re-appointment as president).

But that's as far as it goes. As some guy said way back in the reign of the first Queen Elizabeth, "The Queen's government must be carried on........" At the first whiff of (even possible) scandal, Herr Wulff had to stand down. It's the same everywhere. If he is eventually acquitted, good luck to him and I hope that, if he is indeed acquitted, he gets yet another cushy job.

But he could not possibly have been allowed to remain as president once this fundamental doubt arose.........

It's just the way politics works.........
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Klaus
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German President Wulff To Resign

Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:42 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Interesing, I am not hostile to anyone. I respect immigrants as well as managers. Esepcially, i do not have any prejudice to particular groups.

Who said you should?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
i would never agree woith you on blaming or labeling whole groups.

And I've not done that either, except apparently in your imagination.
 
Cerecl
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German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Islamic tendencies should never become part in official German belongings.

Not a Muslim myself, but this is like saying "yes OK you are here, but we don't like to acknowledge it". IMHO it is unjust and a great recipe for social exclusion if a country does not even want to officially acknowledge there are more than one religion practised by its citizens and practitioners of different religions sometimes do things a bit differently.

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Imho they should ask every Muslim applying for a German passport "in conflict, what comes first for you, the German law, or Allah?" If the latter is the answer, no German passport should be issued.

I doubt Allah, as a religious figure, would ever be in conflict with Germany. What if Catholics/Christians choose God/Jesus over German law in a conflict (If such a scenario, just like that with Allah, even makes sense)? Do you support rescinding their citizenship?
 
PanHAM
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German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:21 pm

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 20):
Not a Muslim myself, but this is like saying "yes OK you are here, but we don't like to acknowledge it"

Religion is, in a secular state, a private matter. Meanwhile, Islam studies are offerend at universities, most states meanwhile offer religious classes for Muslim pupils. Muslims enjoy the full religious freedom guaranteed by the constitution and they can only exclude themselves from social live. Our consitution guarantees individual rights to anyone, including the right not to observe any religion. It is really up to anyone how he or she lead their private lifes.

Of course, the constitution also allows women the same rights as men and children are adults when they turn 18 and the family has no right whatsoever to tell them how to lead their lives. Like I said, Germany is a secular state.
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NoUFO
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German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):

True, but completely beside the point. When President Wulff said Islam was part of Germany, he did not mean to say that the authority of the state but rather the social life in this country would, to some extend, rely on Islam.
As Cerecl has said, arguing against this fact is akin to urging a muslim to **** off and leave this country.
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PanHAM
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German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:16 pm

I wrote about the authority of the constitution which is superior to anything. Social life is based on the consitution. Or, you could also use your word "rely", relies on the consitution. I think this is a very important factor and Wulff cannot have meant anything else.

[Edited 2012-02-19 09:18:12]
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NoUFO
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:48 pm

That's a common misconception. The constitution does not really address individuals but state authorities.

The consitution
- stabilizes and constitutes the then newly founded republic
- limits the power of state authorities
- guarantees the basic rights of people when confronted with such state authorities

The constitution *does not* tell people how to spend their life or how to interact with each other. The constitution does not prohibit coerced prayers, the penal code does (§ 240 StgB) - unless a member of the state authorities forces you to pray.
Same with other common human rights: Should I kill my neighbor I would commit murder, not a human rights violation.

When Mr. Wulff said Islam was part of Germany, he simply acknowledged that many members of our society are muslims. If this had anything to do with the constitution, then in a way that the constitution protects their basic rights too when facing state authorities.
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NoUFO
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:54 pm

And speaking of the office of the president and our constitution: I am very much hoping our politicians, both governmental coalition and opposition, know Art. 54 (1) GG by heart, although this does not seem to be the case.  
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Klaus
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:12 pm

The two coalition parties CDU/CSU and FDP have just agreed to support Joachim Gauck as the new president, who had been proposed by opposition parties SPD and Bündnis90/Grüne. His election in the Bundesversammlung is thus effectively assured.

Gauck had already been the opposition candidate against Wulff in that last election. Despite wide acclaim from all parts of the population Wulff had been pushed through in the third attempt, but with the outcome discussed above.

Despite my shared misgivings about positions of some in the Linkspartei (the successor organization of the GDR state party) I'm not ecstatic about this party having been excluded from the multipartisan talks about the new common candidate, as little as they will be decisive about the outcome. They should have been included.

Interestingly, we'll have both a chancellor and a president from eastern Germany who lived through the GDR. Angela Merkel also is the daughter of a lutheran priest while Joachim Gauck had been a lutheran priest himself. (Some southwestern catholics might groan about the combination, but I as a western atheist don't have a problem with that fact as long as they continue to keep religion mostly out of their respective state offices.)

I'm sceptical of some opinions Gauck had proposed over the years (while I agree with many others), but I don't have doubts about him having the integrity and the intellectual capacity to repair much of the damage done to the office recently.



[Edited 2012-02-19 13:18:29]
 
NoUFO
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
The two coalition parties CDU/CSU and FDP have just agreed to support Joachim Gauck as the new president, who had been proposed by opposition parties SPD and Bündnis90/Grüne. His election in the Bundesversammlung is thus effectively assured.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Despite my shared misgivings about positions of some in the Linkspartei (...) They should have been included.

There should not have been any talks whatsoever, with or without the Linke, please see Art. 54 (1) GG. In my opinion those talks have just rendered the upcoming election unconstitutional.

And if I am wrong here - why not include the Bundesrat (the upper house of the parliament), too? Half of the Bundesversammlung that is going to elect the president will consist of members of the Bundesrat.
And finally: our politicians perhaps could ask *us* what we think, ask *us* to come up with suggestions. I know Gauck is popular, and the politicians know that too, but still: I consider what happened bad taste if not unconstitutional.

Sorry Klaus, but the election of our Bundespräsident is - as always - a joke and a bad one on top of that!
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Klaus
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 27):
There should not have been any talks whatsoever, with or without the Linke, please see Art. 54 (1) GG. In my opinion those talks have just rendered the upcoming election unconstitutional.

I don't see any inconsistency with that article:

GG - Artikel 54

What are you referring to?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 27):
Sorry Klaus, but the election of our Bundespräsident is - as always - a joke and a bad one on top of that!

I don't see it that way.
 
NoUFO
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:20 pm

Art 54
(1) Der Bundespräsident wird ohne Aussprache von der Bundesversammlung gewählt. Wählbar ist jeder Deutsche, der das Wahlrecht zum Bundestage besitzt und das vierzigste Lebensjahr vollendet hat.


Synonyms for "ohne Ausprache": without debate, without explanation, without prior agreement

The constitution does not say who can nominate candidates. In reality this means that the members of the Bundestag, foremost the highest-ranking members of the coalition parties, nominate the candidate. Often the opposition nominates a rival candidate that does not really have a change to get elected. That's a faux election.
To make matters worse, Bundesrat and and the population have no means to suggest candidates.
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aloges
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 26):
Gauck had already been the opposition candidate against Wulff in that last election. Despite wide acclaim from all parts of the population Wulff had been pushed through in the third attempt, but with the outcome discussed above.

It's a pretty decent solution for Mutti. She'll get a president whose ideals aren't too far from her own, Wulff is out of the game completely (he was only ever elected president because he might have posed a threat to her power at some later point) and she can go back to "saving the EU" less than a week after the resignation. That sort of cunning deserves respect.
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Klaus
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:31 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Synonyms for "ohne Ausprache": without debate, without explanation, without prior agreement

No, that just means that the election session does not have a debate attached to it, not that there couldn't possibly be any discussions otherwise.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 29):
Often the opposition nominates a rival candidate that does not really have a change to get elected. That's a faux election.
To make matters worse, Bundesrat and and the population have no means to suggest candidates.

It is common to nominate a candidate even if (s)he doesn't have a practical chance of winning the election ("Zählkandidat"). This candidate is commonly nominated also to make a statement, both in being serious about proposing an alternative and in pointing into a direction different from the majority.

You seriously underestimate what democracy is all about if you denigrate such customs as "faux elections".
 
aloges
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:32 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
No, that just means that the election session does not have a debate attached to it, not that there couldn't possibly be any discussions otherwise.

I thought the same - there's no parliamentary debate before the election.
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Klaus
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 30):
It's a pretty decent solution for Mutti. She'll get a president whose ideals aren't too far from her own, Wulff is out of the game completely (he was only ever elected president because he might have posed a threat to her power at some later point) and she can go back to "saving the EU" less than a week after the resignation. That sort of cunning deserves respect.

I'll give her this: Unlike most politicians she is not afraid to clearly and cleanly reverse course when absolutely everybody has already acknowledged that her previous course had become untenable (another example: her nuclear policy).

I have many disagreements with her about many things, but I respect that she doesn't insist of going down with the ship just out of sheer stubbornness like many of her colleagues would.
 
Klaus
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:37 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 32):
I thought the same - there's no parliamentary debate before the election.

Not least because half of the members of the Bundesversammlung have not been publically elected (they are civilians nominated and delegated by the parties) and thus don't have the legitimacy to participate in an official parliamentary debate.
 
NoUFO
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
You seriously underestimate what democracy is all about if you denigrate such customs as "faux elections".

Ahem, no! I have welcomed the candidacy of Mr. Huntsman although he probably did never really have a chance. The difference here is that few high-ranking party officials of the Bundestag nominate one(!) candidate who later gets "elected" by the Bundesversammlung. The Republicans had nine nominees I think.
I know the election of the Bundespräsident has never be meant to be truly democratic in the first place, but why do we never see more than one nominee who actually has a change to get elected? Imagine that: a couple of members of four (or five: CDU/CSU) parties have just met and came up with one nominee to get elected by the Bundesversammlung. Why only Mr. Gauck? Why not Mrs. Roth, Mr. Papier and Mr. Gauck - and let the Bundesversammlung decide?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
No, that just means that the election session does not have a debate attached to it
Quoting aloges (Reply 32):
I thought the same - there's no parliamentary debate before the election.

I thought about that, too of course. But it does not appear to be clear. Without Aussprache can really mean without prior agreement. Why didn't the authors of the constitution just write "without debate"? Is it just because Aussprache sounds a bit more elitist?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
half of the members of the Bundesversammlung have not been publically elected (they are civilians nominated and delegated by the parties) and thus don't have the legitimacy to participate in an official parliamentary debate.

Exactly, but wouldn't this add to my suspicion that Aussprache means more than just debate?

[Edited 2012-02-19 15:16:28]
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columba
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RE: German President Wulff To Resign

Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:00 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Have to ask why you feel that way, columba?

Well, maybe I am old fashioned but I did not like the way the media was after them like vultures. It is their job to do so but sometimes it appeared just like a hunt.


Quoting NoUFO (Reply 24):
The constitution does not really address individuals but state authorities.

Yes and no, yes the constitution does only address state authorities but all other laws have to be consistent with the constitution so indirectly the constitution also addresses individuals as well
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