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Revelation
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Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:29 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17152705

Protests have been going on for four days, and today 12 were killed.

The President and the commanding general have apologized.

I honestly doubt that the US meant anything evil by disposing of the holy books this way.

Seems the locals do not agree.

Seems we're not wanted there any more and we should leave.

We finally did reach "Mission Accomplished" status a few months ago when OBL took a round to the head.

No need to stick around for the inevitable inglorious withdrawal, let's just get it over with, for the sake of everyone involved.
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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ALTF4
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:49 pm

They don't state where the books were burned. It sounds like it happened on base... who's the idiot who broadcast the "oops" globally?
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Superfly
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Newt Gingrich tells it like it is on this topic;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epBLAyZrsb0
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dc9northwest
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
I honestly doubt that the US meant anything evil by disposing of the holy books this way.

They're burning books now? Have they ever heard of Fahrenheit 451, I wonder?

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Seems we're not wanted there any more and we should leave.

After some people on the US base burn their holiest book? Even by accident?

You think they don't want the US there? Congrats, you're absolutely right!


But yeah, that's not the whole story. How were these books burned?
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:40 pm

I'm sorry if this sounds anti-American, but it seems to me that if the armed forces of any nation have the likelihood to step in it, it would be the American forces...and particularly the US Marines.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 3):

After some people on the US base burn their holiest book? Even by accident?
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 3):
But yeah, that's not the whole story. How were these books burned?

So what? Theirs is a culture that inspires violent outrage over the destruction of inanimate objects, such as Quran copies, and relative indifference toward the extermination of human beings in the name of God.

Let's get things straight, folks:

1) Prisoners use Qurans to write messages to each other. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...ed-qurans-held-extremist-messages/

2) A couple of dumb recruits, having been ordered to "dispose of" the desecrated Qurans (desecrated by Muslims, I might add) stupidly light a fire and throw the books on the fire in full view of Afghans.

3) Afghans go apeshit and start killing people. Including an Afghan soldier you kills US troops.

4) Obama and US Commander apologize

What's wrong with the picture? WE had to apologize??? Will it be that Afghans are perfectly entitled to value a copy of the Koran over the lives of two allied soldiers because that’s their culture, QED?

Has Karzai apologized yet, incidentally? I checked his website, where the announcement of Obama’s apology is prominently displayed, but found only a statement of regret about the civilians killed in the rampage plus some news about the delegations he’s putting together to get to the bottom of an accidental book-burning. Quote from the last link: “NATO officials promised to meet Afghan nation’s demand of bringing to justice, through an open trial, those responsible for the incident and it was agreed that the perpetrators of the crime be brought to justice as soon as possible.”

http://president.gov.af/en/news/7209

It's their people and their culture that kills people at the drop of a hat - not to mention THEIR soldier who kills our troops, and WE are the ones who have to apologize? When are we going to wake up and realize that they are NOT worthy of our respect?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:18 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Newt Gingrich tells it like it is on this topic;

Sorry but what he says is nonsense The Koran is not a radical Islamists material to start and the two American soldiers who were killed died in action not related to the burning incident, so Newt is mixing things in a way to serve his campaign only.
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country, the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 4):
I'm sorry if this sounds anti-American, but it seems to me that if the armed forces of any nation have the likelihood to step in it, it would be the American forces...and particularly the US Marines.

They are trained to be soldiers, not diplomats.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims

Yes, but it was a MISTAKE, and apologies have been issued from the President on down.

Isn't forgiveness in that holy book somewhere?
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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dc9northwest
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
So what? Theirs is a culture that inspires violent outrage over the destruction of inanimate objects, such as Quran copies, and relative indifference toward the extermination of human beings in the name of God.

As opposed to American troops, who kill people, but not in the name of God. That makes it alright, I guess.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
Sorry but what he says is nonsense

Of course it is. He's a politician. They only say nonsense.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country, the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.

Yes, but the US doesn't have a good track record in respecting other cultures, so I can't say I'm surprised.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
1) Prisoners use Qurans to write messages to each other.

Some "terrorists" use the internet. Should we shut it down?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Obama and US Commander apologize

Politics ergo bullshit. They don't mean it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
It's their people and their culture that kills people at the drop of a hat - not to mention THEIR soldier who kills our troops, and WE are the ones who have to apologize? When are we going to wake up and realize that they are NOT worthy of our respect?

And in their opinion, the US isn't worthy of respect. Fair enough?

Have you ever watched a hollywood movie? Tell me, after seeing what people here want to do for fun during the weekend... that is, see as many decapitations and exsanguinations and explosions as possible, that the US culture is not inherently prone to violence.

Now, that doesn't make the Afghani right. But it sure as hell doesn't make the US right either.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They are trained to be soldiers, not diplomats.

Doesnt excuse having no common sense, Just makes life more difficult for themselves and their colleagues. Having said that these cretins will grasp at any reason they can to lynch some westerners.. Should just leave them to kill each other.
 
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Yes, but it was a MISTAKE, and apologies have been issued from the President on down.

Isn't forgiveness in that holy book somewhere?

I was speaking about the action itself, the soldiers should have known that.
President Obama (and others) sincere apologies was a perfect action from a great president.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country, the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.

I call BS on that. If you came over here and burned a Bible in a heavily baptist neighborhood, you might get some ugly looks and even get yelled at. But you won't get killed and the locals won't start looting and pillaging.

It's called civilization.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
It's called civilization.

Sorry i will call you on that, you know where you are going, nobody even dream that part of the world is civilized, thanks to the cold war, the Russian invasion etc...
Still you go there you know the rules, you act accordingly.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:06 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
I was speaking about the action itself, the soldiers should have known that.

They and their commanders are saying they did not know better, and have apologized for their action.

Why do we have day after day of protest after the apologies have been made?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 12):
Sorry i will call you on that, you know where you are going, nobody even dream that part of the world is civilized, thanks to the cold war, the Russian invasion etc...
Still you go there you know the rules, you act accordingly.

You say we didn't think that place was civilized then you say we knew the rules?

You can't have it both ways, so which do you believe?
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Why do we have day after day of protest after the apologies have been made?

Its currently off season in female stoning league so they have to have some way to let off steam.
 
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:15 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
You can't have it both ways, so which do you believe?

I said you knew that place was not civilized due to what has been happening there and for sure they know the rules.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Why do we have day after day of protest after the apologies have been made?

I did not say i approve of those actions, but they felt that they were insulted and acted accordingly.
I believe the apologies were sincere, they may not have that same feeling, maybe they felt the same as:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
Politics ergo bullshit. They don't mean it.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
It's called civilization.

Civilization? What freakin joke! Your forces invaded a country on false pretenses which led to tens of thousands of people dying yet you are getting our panties all tied up on this? US forces should be booted out of afghanistan (which they will soon be). This is only the start of the end game.
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):
US forces should be booted out of afghanistan (which they will soon be). This is only the start of the end game.

They should leave, booted out or not.

It'll prolly happen after the November election, even if the GOP candidate (whomever it is) wins.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):
Your forces invaded a country on false pretenses which led to tens of thousands of people dying yet you are getting our panties all tied up on this?

Surely you are not confusing Iraq and Afghanistan are you?

Be that as it may, the vast majority of innocents/civilians killed in both countries in both countries were killed by your fellows, not ours. You see, we have something within us called a conscience that generally makes us try to avoid killing people who aren't trying to kill us. The same cannot be said for those whom you seem to sympathize with.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
ronglimeng
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:14 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They are trained to be soldiers, not diplomats.

Well, maybe not diplomats of the striped-pants variety, but I do think they get diplomatic training along the "cultural sensitivity" line. My impression is that with American servicemen, it doesn't stick too well, as compared to others.

In this case, it seems that someone was particularly dumb about burning the trash. I have no personal objection to burning excess holy books, but jeez, you'd think they be a little more discrete about it.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:35 am

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 19):
Well, maybe not diplomats of the striped-pants variety, but I do think they get diplomatic training along the "cultural sensitivity" line. My impression is that with American servicemen, it doesn't stick too well, as compared to others.

How about the Afghans taking some "cultural sensitivity" classes? We're not the ones who start killing as soon as someone offends us by burning a book or a flag or whatever.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Pyrex
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 12):
nobody even dream that part of the world is civilized, thanks to the cold war, the Russian invasion etc...

Oh, of course, blame it on the evil Westerners / Russians... That place has been uncivilized ever since the first wayward goat herder got lost in a blizzard, ended up on the wrong side of the Kybher Pass (assuming there is even a right side), looked around at a bunch of rocks and said to himself "You know what? This looks like it would be a great place to settle down and grow some opium." Don't try to deflect criticism on the Soviets or the Americans and let them take responsibility for their own actions.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):
US forces should be booted out of afghanistan (which they will soon be).

Agree - put a bullet in Karzai's head (let's face it, he is going to end up killed by some rival war-lord anyway so might as well save him the trouble, he has fed on Uncle Sam's trough for long enough) and let them kill each other as they so enjoy doing. Just remember to put some drones circling the borders zapping everything that tries to get out to avoid they do any damage outside
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ronglimeng
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:53 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
How about the Afghans taking some "cultural sensitivity" classes?

Not likely to happen. They're not very cultured and they're not very sensitive to the feelings of others - only their own.

[Aside] My wife had what I thought was a great line today as we watched footage of the demonstration in Kabul.

"How do those guys", she asked facetiously, "Get time off work to demonstrate like that ?"
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:59 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
I call BS on that. If you came over here and burned a Bible in a heavily baptist neighborhood, you might get some ugly looks and even get yelled at. But you won't get killed and the locals won't start looting and pillaging.

Oh, I think that in some neighborhoods, you might be facing a group of people armed with broken bottles and such. It wouldn't spread into widespread riots because we are not a fundamentalist-saturated country, but that's because of a relatively secular society, not because we're Christian.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
They and their commanders are saying they did not know better,

This stuns me. Where the hell have they been living that they didn't know that burning the Q'uran was going to cause riots?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Oh, I think that in some neighborhoods, you might be facing a group of people armed with broken bottles and such. It wouldn't spread into widespread riots because we are not a fundamentalist-saturated country, but that's because of a relatively secular society, not because we're Christian

Then do the same in southern Italy or somewhere similar where they are deeply christian. You won't be killed, and there would be no riots.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Cerecl
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):

How about the Afghans taking some "cultural sensitivity" classes? We're not the ones who start killing as soon as someone offends us by burning a book or a flag or whatever.

The US forces are in Afghanistan. As such, they need to respect the culture of the land. If Afghans in the US start to kill after someone burnt a copy of Quran, then I would agree. As things stand, the US soldiers burnt the book in front of locals. If there is a better advertisement of "come and get us" I can't think of it. Are we really surprised about what ensued no matter how unpalatable/unreasonable WE might think it is?

[Edited 2012-02-24 17:13:43]
 
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:57 am

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 25):
The US forces are in Afghanistan. As such, they need to respect the culture of the land.

Sorry, but there are limits. If you were to visit someplace and they practice cannibalism, should we be just peachy with that? This is no different - you have a culture that places their own needs (whether food, need to feel religiously dandy or whatever) above other people's lives.

I just realized - what you have over there is a sociopathic society.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
WestJet747
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:35 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
Some "terrorists" use the internet. Should we shut it down?

  

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 9):
Doesnt excuse having no common sense

Common sense isn't so common unfortunately...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
If you came over here and burned a Bible in a heavily baptist neighborhood, you might get some ugly looks and even get yelled at. But you won't get killed and the locals won't start looting and pillaging.

Going to have to disagree with that. They might not start "looting and pillaging", but there will certainly be a bible-thumper or two in every neighbourhood south of the Bible Belt who would get violent.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Why do we have day after day of protest after the apologies have been made?

Maybe because you have overstayed your welcome?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
You see, we have something within us called a conscience that generally makes us try to avoid killing people who aren't trying to kill us.
Oh really?...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
If you were to visit someplace and they practice cannibalism, should we be just peachy with that?

If you don't believe in cannibalism, don't go there.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
I just realized - what you have over there is a sociopathic society.

Sociopathy is more attributable to genetic factors, while societal attributes are environmental. Your statement of "sociopathic society" is grossly contradictory.
Flying refined.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:58 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 27):

Going to have to disagree with that. They might not start "looting and pillaging", but there will certainly be a bible-thumper or two in every neighbourhood south of the Bible Belt who would get violent.

You have the occasional nutjob anywhere, but the difference the here we put them in jail. You don't have a streetfull of homicidal maniacs. Remember the idiots from Abu Ghraib, or Mahmudiyah? Ask them how their careers did after that. The other difference is that we don't celebrate what they did.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 27):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
You see, we have something within us called a conscience that generally makes us try to avoid killing people who aren't trying to kill us.
Oh really?...

LOL, I remember that site claiming over a million. Maybe a few more months maybe it will be zero.

But anyway, from your site:

"The authors studied 92,614 Iraqi civilian direct deaths from the IBC database which occurred as a result of armed violence between March 20, 2003 through March 19, 2008. The authors found that most Iraqi civilian violent deaths during this time were inflicted by unknown perpetrators, primarily through extrajudicial executions which were disproportionately increased in Iraqi governorates with greater numbers of violent deaths. Unknown perpetrators also used suicide bombs, vehicle bombs, and mortars which had highly lethal and indiscriminate effects on Iraqi civilians. Deaths caused by Coalition forces of Iraqi civilians, of women and children, and of Iraqi civilians from air attacks, peaked during the invasion in 2003."

I didn't find specific numbers, but the message is that most civilian casualties were caused by people of their own culture.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Geezer
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:46 am

Here we go............................................

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country, the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.

I'm not sure just what you mean by the first half of that, about Muslims "adapting"; the "burning " part......we are all very aware that Muslims become very insulted when anyone burns a Koran; but let me ask you this.........are you suggesting that it's O.K. for a bunch of radical "street punks" ( who by the way, are all Muslims ) to kidnap American journalists, then make a video of a Muslim decapitating that journalist, (with his hands tied behind his back I might add), then drag the American flag through the gutter, before burning it ? If this IS what you are telling us, I should point out, a great many Americans, (myself among them), become highly "insulted" and extremely pissed off when we see this happening, and we see it happening almost every day; so perhaps you will be good enough to explain to us why this complete "double standard" is so "O.K." ?

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
As opposed to American troops, who kill people, but not in the name of God. That makes it alright, I guess.

Unfortunately sir, you are attempting to tell 2% of a story (which I doubt that you understand), while leaving out the other 98% of the story, which if told accurately and truthfully, would indicate very clearly just how very much our American troops have done for the people of Afghanistan; but of course, it's not your intention to say anything "flattering" about our troops, is it ?

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
Of course it is. He's a politician. They only say nonsense.

With all due respect, I must say, your "reasoning" is quite juvenile; now you are attempting to suggest that "all politicians are "evil", and only "speak" nonsense; ( I won't even bother to waste my time debating that.)
The people who "run" countries are known as "politicians"..........who would you suggest should run our country, if not politicians ? Oceanographers ? Used car salesmen ? Topologists perhaps ? Who ?

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=8]Yes, but the US doesn't have a good track record in respecting other cultures, so I can't say I'm surprised.

I would submit to anyone interested in hearing the truth, that the United States has a superlative record of respecting "other cultures"; I'm sure you wouldn't agree though, and that's just fine with me.

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=8]Some "terrorists" use the internet. Should we shut it down?


You may rest assured, you won't see any Americans trying to "shut down" the internet; what you WILL see though, is Americans "shutting down" terrorists; ( Seal Team 6 Vs. OBL comes to mind )

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=8]Politics ergo bullshit. They don't mean it.

I think you are referring to Obama now, so I won't even debate that one; (might find myself agreeing with you)

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=8]
Have you ever watched a hollywood movie? Tell me, after seeing what people here want to do for fun during the weekend... that is, see as many decapitations and exsanguinations and explosions as possible, that the US culture is not inherently prone to violence.

"Hollywood movies";..............your problem here is when you say, "what people here do for fun......." I'll point something out here, that you already know; there are several hundred million "people here"........and I can assure you, a very large % of those hundreds of millions are just as aware as you are that most Hollywood movies are inherently prone to violence; I would also point out, I personally don't watch very many Hollywood movies, although that's not necessarily why I don't. BTW........I don't recall seeing any "decapitations" in Hollywood movies lately; the decapitations I HAVE seen, were all perpetrated by Muslims, with victims whose hands were tied behind their backs.

Now, that doesn't make the Afghani right. But it sure as hell doesn't make the US right either.

When you refer to "the Afghani"...........I'm not at all clear just who you are referring to...........there are so many different "tribes", "cultures", "sides", etc etc etc in that country that I doubt that anyone knows "whose side" any of them are on.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 21):
Agree - put a bullet in Karzai's head (let's face it, he is going to end up killed by some rival war-lord anyway so might as well save him the trouble, he has fed on Uncle Sam's trough for long enough) and let them kill each other as they so enjoy doing. Just remember to put some drones circling the borders zapping everything that tries to get out to avoid they do any damage outside

Karzai is a snake; pure and simple; anytime you find yourself needing to maintain a "presence" in a place like Afghanistan, it's a fact of life that you're going to be obliged to "deal with snakes"; ( it's getting a little "old" watching this particular snake parading around in his silly looking green bath robe, wearing his silly looking "fuzzy cap / hat / or what ever you call that silly thing. Karzai is also a "joke"; not funny, but still a joke. But just wait..........one of these days, your "prediction will come true", Karzai's head will be over there, and his shoulders will be over here..........and for the next 2 weeks, all we'll hear about is Karzai this, and Karzai that, (ala W.H.) ( Tell me, is it safe to turn my TV back on yet ? )


I have tried to be patient; I have attempted not to offend anyone; I haven't told any lies; but apparently, like a few more responding to this topic, I'm also getting pretty weary (sp?) of the one-sidedness of this "being offended", "being insulted"..................................H.S.

There are people in Washingto D.C. whose job is to shovel worn-out paper money into an incinerator; yet I've never heard anyone getting "insulted", or wanting to wage a "Holy War" over that; I see a whole bunch of Muslims in Syria blasting away at their own people every day, with tanks and artillery, (who I'm sure are also Muslims); but I'm not here to "insult" , "blaspheme" or in any way attack a particular religion; I'm here attempting to point out that there are a hell of a lot of people who seem to adhere to a "double standard" , and which I think is a "crock".

Charley

P.S. I just happened to think of something that I think perhaps I should add to the above, so everyone reading this will be clear on one thing;

I happen to spend a considerable amount of time on a particular website that show-cases photography; (mostly landscapes and buildings) Not long ago, I ran across the work of a young fellow who happens to reside in the U.A E. His photography is mind-boggling, to say the least; I have been looking at world-class photography for many years now, and this guy's work is "world-class" and beyond; he also happens to be a Muslim; he even mentions this in his profile; I was so impressed, so "in awe" of this young man's work, that I emailed him; he's in his 20's and I'm in my late 70's..........yet his knowledge of photography and technique makes me feel like a "beginner"; we communicate via email; mostly about photography; I KNOW this fellow is a great photographer, and I very much "think" he's a good person; I don't think he would waste his time if he didn't think positively about me; so you see, that's exactly why it's always foolish to insult particular groups of people; I'm very inclined to see the "good" in individuals, regardless of the particular "group", "religion", or country they come from. So.......on the off chance that anyone decides to accuse me of being "anti" anything, just remember, it may be your opinion, but it won't true; therefore, it won't be worth much.
Thanks.
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
seb146
Posts: 14355
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Seems we're not wanted there any more and we should leave.

They never wanted foreign fighters on their land anyway. That was the whole point of our troops being blown up by them. That was why all the IEDs in Iraq. That is why thousands have been dying.

Perhaps a better use of those desicrated Quran's (they were written in, after all) would have been to decipher the codes. Maybe even pay off one of those involved to get information about what is going on?

Of course, it is easy to say after the fact. And, like the American flag, these desicrated Quran's should have been disposed of (burned) in a private and civilized cerimony. We are, after all, on THEIR land.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
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stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
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RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Let's get things straight, folks:

1) Prisoners use Qurans to write messages to each other. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...ed-qurans-held-extremist-messages/

2) A couple of dumb recruits, having been ordered to "dispose of" the desecrated Qurans (desecrated by Muslims, I might add) stupidly light a fire and throw the books on the fire in full view of Afghans.

3) Afghans go apeshit and start killing people. Including an Afghan soldier you kills US troops.

4) Obama and US Commander apologize

  

Look, we Americans need a reality check here. The US Military burns Muslim Holy Korans because the "high value detainees" at the enormous Parwan prison were using them as a way to pass coded messages to each other. So, now let's look at this in a calm and realistic manner.

1. The Taliban execute bound, blindfolded, AFGHAN tribal elders at point blank range with an 82mm recoilless rifle, and release a video of it to the Aljazeera news network : Response of the Afghan people and International Press? Meh.

2. The Taliban torture and execute SIXTEEN bound and blindfolded Pakistani policemen and civilians with pistols and AK47s at point blank range, and release a video of it : Response of Afghan public and the international press - once again, Meh.

3. Americans throw some already-DEFACED Korans in the burn pile with their trash : RIOTS, MURDERS, AND INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE.

4. Any questions whether the American public is being played for idiots and fools? MEH!!!

[Edited 2012-02-24 20:21:38]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:28 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Maybe a few more months maybe it will be zero.

Should have been zero in the first place, but that's just wishful thinking...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
But anyway, from your site:

More your site than mine. It's maintained by Americans, and I found it through the Washington Post and the New York Times, outlets of American media.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):

So...let me get this right...you're justifying the mistake (and I'm willing to call it a mistake) of American troops by saying "well the Afghans do way worse stuff!!"?
Flying refined.
 
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stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
So...let me get this right...you're justifying the mistake (and I'm willing to call it a mistake) of American troops by saying "well the Afghans do way worse stuff!!"?

I am saying that most of the Afghan public seems to have screwed-up priorities. Period.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
dc9northwest
Posts: 2146
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 5:33 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting geezer (Reply 29):
Unfortunately sir, you are attempting to tell 2% of a story (which I doubt that you understand), while leaving out the other 98% of the story, which if told accurately and truthfully, would indicate very clearly just how very much our American troops have done for the people of Afghanistan; but of course, it's not your intention to say anything "flattering" about our troops, is it ?

Can you explain why you don't think I understand? Let me guess... is it my flag or my age? If one of the two, don't bother to respond, I don't care for your opinion. If not, feel free to comment.

To make something clear: if the Afghan people (Pashtun or Dari or both) do not want to US there, then the US troops should not be there. Even if they brought very tangible advancements to Afghani society (which they most certainly did, compared to the Taliban), if the Afghani people do not all want them there, the US troops should stay away from foreign soil.

I have as much say in US matters as you do and I want the US meddling in foreign affairs to stop. No one made the US the world police.

I have nothing against the troops except from the fact that they failed to exercise critical judgment in a critical situation. Burning Qurans in an Islamic country results in riots. If they don't understand that... well, they will never do well for themselves. Do I agree with the riots? Hell no. But they were avoidable by the use of a very tiny bit of common sense. So, I don't side with the locals or the troops.

Unlike many, I don't think that an Afghani life is worth less than an American life. At the same time, it's not our job to deal with the problems of Afghan society. I don't want the troops to die for someone else's conflict.

Killed Osama, good, now get out, out, out. To be perfectly frank, all that was needed for that was good intelligence, which comes partly from understanding cultures, not burning Qurans.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Should have been zero in the first place, but that's just wishful thinking...

Exactly.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
So...let me get this right...you're justifying the mistake (and I'm willing to call it a mistake) of American troops by saying "well the Afghans do way worse stuff!!"?

It probably was a mistake. It wasn't intentional... but a bit of cultural understanding goes a long way. Any idiot could've seen what burning Qurans could lead to.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
Look, we Americans need a reality check here. The US Military burns Muslim Holy Korans because the "high value detainees" at the enormous Parwan prison were using them as a way to pass coded messages to each other. So, now let's look at this in a calm and realistic manner.

Why are you posting on the internet, then? Terrorists use the internet to communicate.
 
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stasisLAX
Posts: 2924
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:07 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 34):
Why are you posting on the internet, then? Terrorists use the internet to communicate.

Okay, let's be rational for a moment, shall we?

I am NOT a terrorist, a murderer or an enemy combatant, nor I am under arrest in a PRISON. If I were a convict here in the USA, my personal liberties would be restricted in NUMEROUS manners. Furthermore, if someone torched a Bible in front of me, as a Christian, I would NOT murder that person because I am more open-minded, educated, tolerant, and compassionate than some other folks, and some others of different religions. What percentage of the Afghans can EVEN read the Koran?? Literacy is less than 10 percent!! The educated Afghans have by and large LEFT the country!!   

[Edited 2012-02-24 21:11:59]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:01 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 33):
I am saying that most of the Afghan public seems to have screwed-up priorities. Period.

And they probably look at us and say North Americans have screwed-priorities. That IS part of the reason they hate us in the first place...

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
I am NOT a terrorist, a murderer or an enemy combatant

But I would have no way of knowing that, because this is the internet and you could just be putting us all on while you scheme away. I think that's what dc9northwest was getting at.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
Literacy is less than 10 percent!!

By "10 percent" I think you meant 28.1% of the population over the age of 15, most of which are bilingual. I'm not religious, but even I know you don't need to be able to read the bible to practice Christianity...
Flying refined.
 
Quokkas
Posts: 1327
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:51 pm

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:22 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
What percentage of the Afghans can EVEN read the Koran?? Literacy is less than 10 percent!!

The following figures are from the CIA World Fact Book:

Literacy: (definition: age 15 and over can read and write)
total population: 28.1%
male: 43.1%
female: 12.6% (2000 est.)

School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education):
total: 9 years
male: 11 years
female: 7 years (2009)

Allowing for the possibility that the figures are dated and the fact that the country is a war zone, learning to read and recite the Qur'an is encouraged and viewed as a part of education in Muslim countries.

On thing that is being overlooked in the claim that US citizens would not kill someone simply because they burnt a bible is the context in which the burning takes place. Imagine if you will, the US has been occupied by a foreign power (Ok its isn't likely to happen any time soon). If that foreign power, for whatever reasons, started burning bibles are you saying that the majority of loyal US citizens would say, "Hey, I'm cool with that." I suspect that there would be plenty of people angry and that there would be riots, possibly resulting in death. There is a world of difference between an individual burning a book and the representatives of a foreign power doing the same thing in your own country, deliberately or by mistake.

But I wonder if the world's population will ever be mature enough to:

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

(John Lennon)
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4085
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:56 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
You have the occasional nutjob anywhere, but the difference the here we put them in jail. You don't have a streetfull of homicidal maniacs.

Forget about it - you are trying to argue with a moral relativist, there is no point. They will claim to be secular, but only when it applies to the U.S. and its predominant religions - anything done by someone of some other religion or country is automatically right and we should not judge them. Don't make them bring up examples of things that happened 500 years ago to justify their point!

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
the Washington Post and the New York Times, outlets of American media.

The WaPo and the NYT are about as American as Al-Jazeera...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Gyreaux130J
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:41 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:26 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
Imagine if you will, the US has been occupied by a foreign power (Ok its isn't likely to happen any time soon). If that foreign power, for whatever reasons, started burning bibles are you saying that the majority of loyal US citizens would say, "Hey, I'm cool with that." I suspect that there would be plenty of people angry and that there would be riots, possibly resulting in death.

I'm gonna guess the reaction would be somewhere between "Hey, I'm cool with that" and "there would be plenty of people angry and that there would be riots, possibly resulting in death". Nice try at drawing a parallel between the average Afghan and the average American though. Logical fallacy much?
When all else fails, fly Martin Baker!
 
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SOBHI51
Posts: 3771
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 8:26 am

Quoting geezer (Reply 29):
I'm not sure just what you mean by the first half of that, about Muslims "adapting"; the "burning " part

In all discussions here there always this : If you move to the west it's a must that Muslims should adapt to the west way of living or go back home.
Now when an army move to another country should they not at least be sensitive to the way the local thinks, specially when it comes to the religion aspect?

Quoting geezer (Reply 29):
are you suggesting that it's O.K. for a bunch of radical "street punks" ( who by the way, are all Muslims ) to kidnap American journalists, then make a video of a Muslim decapitating that journalist, (with his hands tied behind his back I might add), then drag the American flag through the gutter, before burning it ? If this IS what you are telling us, I should point out, a great many Americans, (myself among them), become highly "insulted" and extremely pissed off when we see this happening, and we see it happening almost every day; so perhaps you will be good enough to explain to us why this complete "double standard" is so "O.K." ?

It might surprise you that i am more insulted by such actions than you. Somebody is kidnapping my religion to commit barbaric actions, no i never agreed with such behavior, and i do not care if the victim was an American or from the jungles, a human life is a human life.

BTW i am getting old, so can you remind me the reason of the riots few years ago in LA? how many people were killed, and the total damage to properties?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
na
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country,

Anyone living in a foreign country with a different culture should adopt, unless this culture/society is unbearably inhumane. If a muslim chooses to live in a western democratic country, he must accept that in case of conflict that country´s constitution comes before anything said in the Koran. And if a Westerner lives in a muslim country its of cause utterly disrespectful to burn up a holy book.
I am always amazed how stupid and reckless a minority among the US Forces is.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.

I respect that. So what do you do to old, rotten Korans? You dont eat them. Are they going to the wastebin (with the danger of being burned with other rubbish on the junkyard)? Are they buried?
Someone could burn up 10 of these books today, and unless he is so stupid to advertise such stupidity no muslim will ever know, and no problem will arise.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 33):
I am saying that most of the Afghan public seems to have screwed-up priorities. Period.

I dont know if "most", but surely far too many. Afghanistan has been trouble as long as it exists. Leave those stoneage blockheads alone, is my wish. Let them prosper, let them go down, its a country I would never spend anything welfare $ for. There are many better places who need help who dont go on murder hunt against their helpers.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9222
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:44 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

(John Lennon)

He's my man. I agree 100% with all the things he said.
No wonder he was murdered...

  
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
na
Posts: 9211
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 42):

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

(John Lennon)

He's my man. I agree 100% with all the things he said.
No wonder he was murdered...

Unfortunately humans are not made of this stuff. As long as capitalism (egoism) and religions (chauvinism) rule, it´ll never get any decidedly better.
 
imiakhtar
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 3:35 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:07 pm

Quoting na (Reply 41):
respect that. So what do you do to old, rotten Korans? You dont eat them. Are they going to the wastebin (with the danger of being burned with other rubbish on the junkyard)? Are they buried?

That's what I find ironic. Burning or burial is indeed the correct method of disposal for religious text. However, doing half a job and dumping the rest at a waste site is not.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Newt Gingrich tells it like it is on this topic;

I see your true colours.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
No need to stick around for the inevitable inglorious withdrawal, let's just get it over with, for the sake of everyone involved.

You can lead a horse to water.....
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
Cerecl
Posts: 435
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:22 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
If you were to visit someplace and they practice cannibalism, should we be just peachy with that?

1. If you know the people from the place you want to go practise cannibalism, maybe you should reconsider your plan.
2. If you have to go to this place, you put yourself on guard, you avoid giving any cues to those who want to eat you. If you parade in front of the cannibals and expose your flesh, I doubt a lot of people would feel sorry for you if anything untoward happens. That said, there is no excuse for the murder of NATO soldiers who probably had nothing to do with this. As far as I understand, Koran burning was the mere trigger to the deadly protest, which probably had its roots in a whole range of issues.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1631
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):

Civilization? What freakin joke! Your forces invaded a country on false pretenses which led to tens of thousands of people dying yet you are getting our panties all tied up on this? US forces should be booted out of afghanistan (which they will soon be). This is only the start of the end game.

uh, Afghanistan wasnt on false pretenses. I seem to recall a certain Taliban hiding a certain OBL...who was responsible for more than 3000 deaths on 9-11.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5455
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 22):
"How do those guys", she asked facetiously, "Get time off work to demonstrate like that ?"

Only to get killed while rioting trying to prove the world what a "religion of peace" islam is. Priceless.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
1. The Taliban execute bound, blindfolded, AFGHAN tribal elders at point blank range with an 82mm recoilless rifle, and release a video of it to the Aljazeera news network : Response of the Afghan people and International Press? Meh.

2. The Taliban torture and execute SIXTEEN bound and blindfolded Pakistani policemen and civilians with pistols and AK47s at point blank range, and release a video of it : Response of Afghan public and the international press - once again, Meh.

3. Americans throw some already-DEFACED Korans in the burn pile with their trash : RIOTS, MURDERS, AND INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE.
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 33):
I am saying that most of the Afghan public seems to have screwed-up priorities. Period.

Add to that "outrage" over the Danish cartoons, "outrage" over the South Park or concerns about Osama getting a proper musulman burial instead of being relieved that someone who supposedly does not represent "the religion of peace" is no more etc. etc. That being said the troops have been on the ground for quite a while and the screwed-up priorities are nothing new and should be taken into consideration in delicate situations like infidels handling muslims' favorite story book.
Of course that it's bizarre that Muslim insurgents shelling mosque in Fallujah or Taliban terrorists bombing mosque full of fellow muslims in Pakistan are a non-issue while everyone from Jakarta to London(istan) gets their panties in a bunch over a cartoon in a second-rate newspaper published on the other end of the world. But that's the way things are, and the way the US military handled this thing is a major screw up, at least for the sake of security of everyone from ISAF on the ground.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 36):
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
Literacy is less than 10 percent!!

By "10 percent" I think you meant 28.1% of the population over the age of 15

Wow, that makes the situation completely different. Thanks for clarification. Having not just one but almost three out of ten people who can read and write makes an "abbyssmal" difference.
 
N867DA
Posts: 952
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Be that as it may, the vast majority of innocents/civilians killed in both countries in both countries were killed by your fellows, not ours. You see, we have something within us called a conscience that generally makes us try to avoid killing people who aren't trying to kill us. The same cannot be said for those whom you seem to sympathize with.

Paging Joseph McCarthy...paging Senator McCarth!

Get a grip. Stop making things in such black and white terms.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident

Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):
What freakin joke!

Oh yeah, the joke is Pakistani security forces gave cover to the Taliban and OBL all the while claiming they didn't have anything to do with them.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 22):
"How do those guys", she asked facetiously, "Get time off work to demonstrate like that ?"

When someone insults Mo or defiles the Koran it's a national holiday.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education):
total: 9 years
male: 11 years
female: 7 years (2009)

The amazing thing about this stat is all you have to do is graduate from the 8th grade and you are qualified to be a teacher.

My Afghan friend told me once "if the Afghans are not fighting foreigners they are fighting themselves"
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein

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