njxc500
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Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:29 pm

Ok I need some input here....

I am helping my wife hire an employee to help with her business. We have a young girl who has graduated with a degree in the field we are looking for. She has been very persistent, waited over the winter and now its time to hire someone.

We got her resume out, called her current job listed, and she doesn't work there any more(original resume). We asked about this girl, all the manager would say "all I can say is she worked here". WTF. So I go in to this place, order a bagel, and I ask the nice young man at the counter if he knows her. It was not busy so we talked for a couple minutes, turns out this girl quit without notice, was unmotivated while working there, and was not liked in general.

We also called her internship employer, which had more of the same information. Did not recommend her.

We already had her scheduled for an interview, so we continued, and now we have to turn her down. No big deal.

The Question:

How much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

For Example:
Your references all came back negative.
You lied during your interview.
You quit your last job without notice.

Part of me wants to do this kid a favor and tell her she won't get a job in this field until she at least has a good reference. What on earth do you have a resume for, and you include all bad references, or are you ignorant.

Some sort of rant would ensue, but which way will be better for this girl.

Input?
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Some sort of rant would ensue, but which way will be better for this girl.

I would say since young kids nowadays just never seem to be held accountable for anything anymore and have this idiotic sense of entitlement you should do her a favor and tell her straight up why you won't hire her. Hopefully she will correct her mistakes.

I personally however find it pretty aggravating when I'm just told "we found somebody better". It's pretty insulting to my intelligence. I much rather be told specifically why I was not chosen instead of just being blown off with no explanation. I also know lots of people that don't give a rats ass either way. But I appreciate constructive criticism, though most kids nowadays take it too damn personal. Just be tactful and upfront about it and you'll be fine. If she throws an immature rant tell her she's giving you even more reasons to NOT hire her.

[Edited 2012-03-01 09:58:22]
 
lewis
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:51 pm

If you are really interested in a way that would be "better for the girl" then be frank about the reasons for not extending an offer to her. Young people nowadays do a lot of stupid things when looking for a job, I have had a lot of face-palm moments at campus recruiting events and since I am still young, I do try to be frank with people and I immediately tell them what not to do again if they ever wish to get a job. I do give them feedback so they can at least improve their approach and not keep repeating the same mistakes.

As Fly2HMO mentioned, I don't really like the generic negative responses which lack any substance whatsoever. I have had a few of them when I was younger and they offered no feedback for me to use and improve. She may end up being rude about it, at which point you will realize that maybe she didn't deserve your approach but that is fine, at least you tried.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
We already had her scheduled for an interview, so we continued, and now we have to turn her down. No big deal.

Not that you are seeking confirmation here, but you are absolutely doing the right thing. It is never worth settling on the wrong candidate just to get a position filled. Multiple unfavorable references cannot be ignored.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
How much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

For Example: Your references all came back negative.

I would just say that she is no longer in consideration for the position because her references came back unfavorable. I would not say that you are going with another application if you don't actually have another applicant in mind.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Some sort of rant would ensue, but which way will be better for this girl.

You don't necessarily need to speak to the candidate. A letter will also suffice if you think she will explode on the phone.
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 3):
A letter will also suffice if you think she will explode on the phone.

So what if she does. He should just hang up if it gets to that point.

I think OP should just be upfront about it. A letter is so impersonal. Just call her, tell her straight up, and be done with it. If she want's to throw a bitch-fit about it that's her problem, not OP's. OP would have done his job by helping her improve. Whether she want's to take it maturely or not is her responsibility.

In fact, I may as go as far as to say that if she takes it in a (very) mature way, maybe she may be worth reconsidering, assuming you haven't found anybody significantly better.

[Edited 2012-03-01 10:07:16]
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
How much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

For Example:
Your references all came back negative.
You lied during your interview.
You quit your last job without notice.

Normally I'd say go for it, but I'm presuming the manager wouldn't tell you more details because of company policy or data protection? Certainly that has been my experience with a couple of previous employers in the UK who flatly refuse to do anything more than acknowledge that I worked for them, making the 'reference' worth sod all other than filling a gap in my history. So telling her what you found out could be dropping the manager and/or the employee at her previous work right in it if she thinks they had no right to spill the beans and complains.


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casinterest
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
ow much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

I think Honesty is the best policy. Too many people get coddled through bad situations and it doesn't solve theirs or future employers issues.

Just say, "we went and checked references, but no one could really recommend you other than to say that you worked there".

From there on it is your choice, but she should know that she needs to be positive and professional in her job for future considerations, and or drop those references off of her Resume. If they gave that kind of recommendation, I doubt she even apprached them to be references.
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mbmbos
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:32 pm

I'm assuming you're talking about hiring someone in the U.S. Giving a bad job review to an outside source can have serious legal ramifications, and that's why calling former employers often garners little useful information. My company allows us to confirm term of employment, title and salary - only. We are instructed to say that our refusal to discuss job performance is neither an endorsement of nor a condemnation of the candidate - it's strictly neutral information we provide.

I would encourage you not to relay the kind of responses you've received about her, especially since they were references she didn't provide. It's up to her to figure out why she keeps getting turned down for jobs and surely she already has a clue.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):

I personally however find it pretty aggravating when I'm just told "we found somebody better". It's pretty insulting to my intelligence. I much rather be told specifically why I was not chosen instead of just being blown off with no explanation. I also know lots of people that don't give a rats ass either way. But I appreciate constructive criticism, though most kids nowadays take it too damn personal. Just be tactful and upfront about it and you'll be fine. If she throws an immature rant tell her she's giving you even more reasons to NOT hire her.
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
I'm assuming you're talking about hiring someone in the U.S. Giving a bad job review to an outside source can have serious legal ramifications, and that's why calling former employers often garners little useful information.

Bingo. You were able to "get the goods" on this girl because she worked (if I understand correctly) in a shop where you could easily approach her collegues as a member of the public. Most of the time you can't do that.

I agree entirely that it would be far better for everyone involved to tell the person straight up "I didn't hire you because your references came back negative" or whatever. But as mbmbos says, in today's legalistic society for of idiots who think the world owes them something, you can get yourself into trouble like that. What if the girl goes back to her old employer and starts harassing people, or finds some schyster lawyer to file a defamation suit against them? Her employer then has grounds to go after you legally, because you should not have told her.

Which all comes back to tort reform. If we banned the practice of lawyers working on a contingency basis, (where they get 50% of any settlement or awards, basically turning the justice system into a lottery), you'd get rid of much of this problem.
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stlgph
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
So I go in to this place, order a bagel, and I ask the nice young man at the counter if he knows her. It was not busy so we talked for a couple minutes, turns out this girl quit without notice, was unmotivated while working there, and was not liked in general.

With what was said above, you pretty potentially broke several HR laws.

Your response is "we are not able to offer you employment at this time, thank you for your interest."

End story.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
I'm assuming you're talking about hiring someone in the U.S.

Wow, that's quite harsh. I've only heard of the opposite - that the employer is careful not to tell why the application wasn't successfull. In countries with a strong legal protection of racial and other minorities (like disabled people), it could lead to litigation against the firm offering the job.

It's especially important in cases where the law tells the employer to use "reverse discrimination" - to favor a disabled over another applicant if they are equally qualified.


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lewis
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:03 pm

I was not aware that giving a recommendation (whether negative or positive) can get you into trouble in the US. As a general rule, people should first contact their former employer, letting them know (or asking for permission in case of specific company rules) that they are going to use them as references in the future. In my opinion, someone is not very smart to list as references prior employers who will probably give negative feedback. I do not see how there would be legal problems if that girl listed her previous employer as someone you could contact for a reference.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
With what was said above, you pretty potentially broke several HR laws.

This may indeed be a problem as she did not list any of her ex-colleagues as references but her employer only. I think something along the lines of Reply #6 "We could only get a confirmation of you working there and nothing more" would suffice. If you still want to be somewhat specific for your reasons of not hiring her, there is no harm in saying that, at least she knows what part of her future applications she should improve.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:08 pm

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
We asked about this girl, all the manager would say "all I can say is she worked here".

That is all they can say under the HR privacy laws.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
So I go in to this place, order a bagel, and I ask the nice young man at the counter if he knows her. It was not busy so we talked for a couple minutes, turns out this girl quit without notice, was unmotivated while working there, and was not liked in general.

   What you did was illegal. You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her. And you can lose big time on that. You are now between a rock and a very hard place.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
With what was said above, you pretty potentially broke several HR laws.

   Yeah, good luck with that if the girl finds out. The chances are, she probably knows now. She may have have some friends still working at her old employer. You shouldn't of done that.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
"we are not able to offer you employment at this time, thank you for your interest."

A lot of employers nowadays send out letters with this example. This is what I would do.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:31 pm

As a (often) kind and generous person, I'd try to give some help.

I would invite her over for a talk, but also write that you are very cautious because of the reference.

Then tell her of the feedback you got - of course the one you got from the reference listed.) Ask her out about her version, and question her. "Are you really sure you did a good job there? Can you explain the feedback I got from your reference?". And tell her to re-apply in 6, 8 or 12 months.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:35 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):

What you did was illegal. You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her. And you can lose big time on that. You are now between a rock and a very hard place.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):

Yeah, good luck with that if the girl finds out. The chances are, she probably knows now. She may have have some friends still working at her old employer. You shouldn't of done that.

Isn't that the whole problem here? Yes, it may have been illegal, but it's not wrong. How can the government tell me that I am not allowed to inform myself in regards to a potential employee - a person who, if employed, could really screw me up by stealing from me, or ruining my reputation by showing a bad attitude towards my customers, or not being diligent about her work so that others have to fix her mistakes behind her, etc? I have a natural right to chose who I want to hire and to use selection criteria relevant to the job.

I should not take into account if she has children, is divorced, lives in a shed or a mansion, is a lesbian, because those have nothing to do with the job. But if she's a shitty worker, I should know about it.

The problem here appears to be laws that go too far, not the perspective employer.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:42 pm

Employment laws differ widely around the world, so I won't presume to tell you what is and is not appropriate in your situation, but I would recommend that you check with someone who is familiar with your local situation before doing anything 'non-standard' even with the best of intentions.

I know that for many companies , regardless of the ex employees performance it is standard to offer nothing more than a strictly neutral 'Ms/Mr X was employed by us from "date" to "date" '. As you say, this tells you very little ( although, I would think that as a rule of thumb, the wider apart the dates are the less likely that they had a problem with the employee - but even there you have to be careful, sometimes it just means that it took a long time for them to get caught doing something wrong!)
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:51 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
But if she's a shitty worker, I should know about it.

Why should you know? It isn't your business. Personally, I wouldn't want my "new" employer to know about what I did or did not do at my "current" place of employment. I have a right to privacy. If you really want to know the type of worker a person is, that is why you require at least 3-4 references or don't hire. But then again, having references is kind of risky sometimes. You never know who you can trust nowadays.....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
The problem here appears to be laws that go too far....

I disagree. The only reason why is because I believe in second chances and fair chances.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
How can the government tell me that I am not allowed to inform myself in regards to a potential employee - a person who, if employed, could really screw me up by stealing from me, or ruining my reputation by showing a bad attitude towards my customers, or not being diligent about her work so that others have to fix her mistakes behind her, etc?

That is why we have probationary periods. One has 30 days of protection after hired (meaning they cannot be terminated during the first 30 days) and then after that, if the employer does not like the applicant, they can terminate the applicant for any reason with or without cause as long as it is not linked to any type of discrimination based on sex, religion, race, etc etc..... That is the beauty of probationary periods. Generally, most employers are 90 days, some are 6 months (Like at AS) and up to a year depending on job function.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
I have a natural right to chose who I want to hire and to use selection criteria relevant to the job.

Of course you do. No one is denying that right. But laws are put in place to protect both, the employee and the employer....and it generally favors the employer than the employee. In rare cases, like this thread, unfortunately it favors the would be employee. HR laws were violated and she has the right to sue if she finds out regardless if she was a lousy worker at her previous job or not. Both the would-be employer and the former employer would be at fault here.

Could you imagine the type of chaos we would have if we did not have the current employment laws? It would be extremely hard to get a job anywhere and many, many people would be out of work. The unemployment rate would be through the roof!!!! That is not good.

[Edited 2012-03-01 11:58:35]
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Dreadnought
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:35 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Why should you know? It isn't your business

Like hell it isn't!!! When I hire an employee, I am entrusting them with my business, my livelihood. A single employee can sink a company.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Personally, I wouldn't want my "new" employer to know about what I did or did not do at my "current" place of employment.

Maybe it's a generational thing, but I came up in my professional career having been taught "The New York Times Rule". You are never, ever to do, say or write anything in your professional career that you would mind if they splattered it all over the front page of the New York Times. I believe I have lived up to that standard, and so should everyone else.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):

That is why we have probationary periods.

Which is all fine and dandy, but you have already spent money training that person (even if it's fellow colleagues simply showing them how to do stuff), and now have to restart the search process that you had stopped.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Could you imagine the type of chaos we would have if we did not have the current employment laws? It would be extremely hard to get a job anywhere and many, many people would be out of work. The unemployment rate would be through the roof!!!! That is not good.

Getting carried away with the hyperbole, aren't we? I think the vast majority of people out there are fine, decent people who work as hard as they can. These laws that you speak of are not there to protect them. They are there to protect the wastoids who drift from job to job, because nobody will shake them by the shoulders and tell them to wake the F... up and get it together. These are the guys who I think made up 90% of the OWS crowd who were out there demanding work but chased away those people who went to OWS to organize a little job fair and actually offer them work.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Ken777
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:36 pm

She has a degree? Ask for a copy of her grades on the schools form. Look at the various courses she took and the grades she obtained.

As for the company that only confirmed employment, that is the policy of many companies these days because of legal exposure if they honestly talk about undesirable employees. Sometimes all you get is a certification of employment. THe problem is that outstanding employees sometimes get passed over by a policy that applies to everyone.

Another issue that needs to be understood is that many times a female staff member is hit upon by a manager, or someone else. That is often the reason for a woman leaving a job without notice. Other games are just as evident when it comes to not providing notice.

Another thing to remember. The applicant has a degree, but has worked in a fast food place because that is all there was. That might be one of the reasons why her attitude was not the best. What was her degree in? What were her actual jobs after getting her degree? And what job is she applying for?
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:19 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
Like hell it isn't!!!

The law disagrees with you, unfortunately.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
When I hire an employee, I am entrusting them with my business, my livelihood.

I understand where you are going with this, and I do agree. But the law is the law.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
A single employee can sink a company.

True, but not always.....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
You are never, ever to do, say or write anything in your professional career that you would mind if they splattered it all over the front page of the New York Times.

Doesn't that contradict everything you are saying on this subject??? Such as:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
But if she's a shitty worker, I should know about it.

So, which is it? You want to know about your would-be employee or do you not want others to know about your work history in depth?? You cannot have it both ways.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
you have already spent money training that person (even if it's fellow colleagues simply showing them how to do stuff), and now have to restart the search process that you had stopped.

It is like that in every industry. If a worker is not what they advertised themselves to be and/or not up to the company's standards then they are shown the door. Simple as that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
Getting carried away with the hyperbole, aren't we?

It is a fact of life. It is what it is in every industry.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
These laws that you speak of are not there to protect them.

Yes, they are. Look up the Equal Opportunity Laws. Look at what the EEOC does. The Fair Pay Act, etc etc....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
They are there to protect the wastoids who drift from job to job, because nobody will shake them by the shoulders and tell them to wake the F... up and get it together.

I think that is the unions fault. They are the ones protecting these folks. But then again, you find these kinds of people everywhere in every industry. There is not much you can do about it. However, this thread isn't about unions.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
These are the guys who I think made up 90% of the OWS crowd who were out there demanding work but chased away those people who went to OWS to organize a little job fair and actually offer them work.

Everyone has the right to have a job, providing that they meet the criteria for such a job..... You don't want people living out on the street and causing all sorts of problems, do you?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
She has a degree? Ask for a copy of her grades on the schools form.

The chances are, she probably doesn't have one. I would contact the Admissions office of said school to verify that she does, in fact, have a specific degree.

But then again, I would hire this person anyway, put her on a strict probationary period (100 days) with bi-weekly reviews. If she is not up to par, it would be the easy out in getting rid of her rather than getting caught with snooping around and finding out about this person a little bit more from co-workers, risking getting sued by this girl. Hiring her and making her go through a probationary period is the easy way out, IMO. It is cheaper.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
photopilot
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
Giving a bad job review to an outside source can have serious legal ramifications, and that's why calling former employers often garners little useful information. My company allows us to confirm term of employment, title and salary - only. We are instructed to say that our refusal to discuss job performance is neither an endorsement of nor a condemnation of the candidate - it's strictly neutral information we provide.

Absolutely right. Many of the companies where I've worked as a Manager have this exact policy. We stress that this is a completely neutral reference of employment, dates, and salary RANGE only. The rest is considered private information.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
What you did was illegal. You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her. And you can lose big time on that. You are now between a rock and a very hard place.

At this point, the best advice might be to contact a good lawyer. There's a better than average chance you might be needing one. Sorry, but that's the fact of today's employment world.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Isn't that the whole problem here? Yes, it may have been illegal, but it's not wrong. How can the government tell me that I am not allowed to inform myself in regards to a potential employee - a person who, if employed, could really screw me up by stealing from me, or ruining my reputation by showing a bad attitude towards my customers, or not being diligent about her work so that others have to fix her mistakes behind her, etc? I have a natural right to chose who I want to hire and to use selection criteria relevant to the job.

Ok.... you talked to a young man behind the counter. Tell us. Did he have the right to speak for the company? Was he perhaps a jilted boyfriend or a guy that had made a pass at the girl and been rejected and now is seeking to trash her.... when the complete opposite of what he says might indeed be the truth? Maybe she quit without notice because her former boss made an inappropriate pass/grab/assault upon her and she chose to leave rather than get the police involved. The trouble is... YOU DON'T KNOW. You could be facing a HUGE settlement if you took this unauthorized information at face value from someone not authorized to give it.... and who wasn't told that the information they were providing in an informal "chat" was in fact being used as a job reference.
Between a rock and a hard place???? Heck, at this point I'd say you're fully under the rock. Try to extricate yourself with some dignity and the least legal problems at this point. That's why I suggest full legal advice. The few dollars you spend on a lawyer might save you a fortune later.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:38 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Heck, at this point I'd say you're fully under the rock.

I hope you are referring to the OP and not me. With that in mind, he should have thought of that before he went off on his own. If someone had their own business, they should have known the HR laws we have here in the U.S. before starting up their own business and wanting people to work for them.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I would contact the Admissions office of said school to verify that she does, in fact, have a specific degree.

I forgot to add.... This, I think is one of the legal ways to find out about someone without getting sued. Airlines do this all the time when they are about to hire someone. They also hire investigative services companies to do the background checks for them. I think that is as far as you can get when finding out about someone legally without the due recourse by an applicant. But the employment laws, whether we agree with them or not, still have to be followed.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Try to extricate yourself with some dignity and the least legal problems at this point. That's why I suggest full legal advice. The few dollars you spend on a lawyer might save you a fortune later.

Or.... she can just be hired temporarily and terminated when her services are no longer required.... almost similar to what I said in reply 19. It's like getting rid of a potential lawsuit in exchange for temporary employment. The OP would still win in this scenario.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Stabilator
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:48 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):

Dreadnought isn't the one needing legal advice. I think he is just advocating to an extent the viewpoint of the OP, i.e wanting to know as much as possible about an applicant.

To the OP, just hope the person who waited on you isnt in communication with your applicant. And don't mention her poor reference.
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):

I understand where you are going with this, and I do agree. But the law is the law.

Then to quote Dickens, "then the law is an ass." Just because something "is the law" does not make it right. Did you know that it is illegal to run out of gas in Youngstown OH?

http://www.conwaygreene.com/Youngsto....dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&2.0

Do a Quick Search for section 331.44.

Just because something is the law does not prevent it being stupid.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
You are never, ever to do, say or write anything in your professional career that you would mind if they splattered it all over the front page of the New York Times.

Doesn't that contradict everything you are saying on this subject??? Such as:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
But if she's a shitty worker, I should know about it.

So, which is it? You want to know about your would-be employee or do you not want others to know about your work history in depth?? You cannot have it both ways.

Not at all. I never said that my work history should be secret. As long as it does not interfere with professional secrecy, I have no problem with people answering about the diligence with which I did my work, attitude at work etc.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
These laws that you speak of are not there to protect them.

Yes, they are. Look up the Equal Opportunity Laws. Look at what the EEOC does. The Fair Pay Act, etc etc....

We aren't talking about those laws. We are talking specifically about the law that prevents a prospective employer from finding out whether a prospect is a fuck-up or not.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):

Everyone has the right to have a job, providing that they meet the criteria for such a job..... You don't want people living out on the street and causing all sorts of problems, do you?

Everyone has the right to LOOK for a job, not have one. And as I've said before I don't have an issue with safety nets, as long as they are not excessive.
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:09 pm

I went back and re-read the OP's post.... and I should answer these questions:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
How much should I tell her?

After the snooping around you did, I wouldn't tell her a damn thing.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

I would, yes. But in a legal and tactful way.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
For Example:
Your references all came back negative.

No.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
You lied during your interview.

What did she lie about exactly?

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
You quit your last job without notice.


A huge NO! That will just give her more of a reason to sue you. She would be like "How in the hell did you find that information out?" Plus, that is not your business. The only way that it makes it your business is if she volunteerly (however you spell it) discloses that to you. Then she cannot sue you.

This is why interviewers set up questions like "What was the most you liked about your job?" or "What made you leave your last job?" and "What were your weaknesses during your last job?"

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Part of me wants to do this kid a favor and tell her she won't get a job in this field until she at least has a good reference.

You don't want to do that. That is not your place and not your call and it is very unprofessional. You are not her parents.

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 22):
To the OP, just hope the person who waited on you isnt in communication with your applicant. And don't mention her poor reference.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Just because something "is the law" does not make it right.

I also agree with you on that. But again, the law is the law.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Did you know that it is illegal to run out of gas in Youngstown OH?

Interesting. What does this have to do with the thread?    How does this help the OP?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Do a Quick Search for section 331.44.

No need to since this is off topic.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Everyone has the right to LOOK for a job, not have one.

This is where I need to correct myself. Everyone has the right to look for a job, however once a person has earned the job, they have to prove themselves to earn the privilege of keeping said job.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
We are talking specifically about the law that prevents a prospective employer from finding out whether a prospect is a fuck-up or not.

You are keeping people from getting a job, hence why I brought up the high unemployment. We don't want that. I should also state that not all jobs are one size fits all.

Laws are set to protect both, the employer and the employee/applicant.

[Edited 2012-03-01 14:18:08]
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Flighty
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
I personally however find it pretty aggravating when I'm just told "we found somebody better".

Absolutely. The dignified thing to do is to say their references weren't very good. Nobody says that, but they are liars when they omit the reason. Somebody just starting out their career will never learn this lesson unless somebody at least provides them this info. Do her a favor. It seems the thread starter wanted to help her out. Do the girl a favor.


Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
But the law is the law.


Can somebody please describe this law against calling or visiting ex-employers... Apparently I can sue some of the world's wealthiest corporations  wink 

[Edited 2012-03-02 06:54:18 by SA7700]
 
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:32 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 25):

Why would you want to do that. Sounds a bit unprofessional to me telling her to straighten her act if she wants a job anywhere. It isn't his place to tell her that.
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:43 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 27):
Why would you want to do that. Sounds a bit unprofessional to me telling her to straighten her act if she wants a job anywhere. It isn't his place to tell her that.

So what is the place to tell her that. How more appropriate can you get than being able to tell the person honestly "This is why I'm not hiring you", so that the person can (if they are mature enough) can take steps to correct the problem?
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lewis
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 27):
Sounds a bit unprofessional to me telling her to straighten her act if she wants a job anywhere.

If even a quarter of potential employers that I applied to when I was younger gave me an honest reason for not extending an offer instead of the generic poop they send out (as long as it would not have legal repercussions for them) I would have appreciated them for it and for helping me improve whatever they did not find to their liking. Note that I am only talking about things that candidates can easily improve. Some people are just not a good fit for a company and I accept that. I find nothing unprofessional about someone being as honest as he/she is legally allowed to. The OP does not have to tell her to "straighten her act" but he could just say that, from the references she provided, he could only verify employment and nothing more, which is just not enough for him.

Also, regarding references, if you do not provide a written (and usually positive) reference along with your resume and you list people that your potential employer can contact directly for a reference (note that it is called a reference and not a "confirmation of employment") then you must be prepared to accept a non-reference as well. If not, don't bother listing any references. For confirmation of employment, the potential employer can call the company directly and ask to speak to a person in charge of staff so as to confirm that you worked there. A reference is what the word says it is.

[Edited 2012-03-01 15:49:47]
 
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 27):
Sounds a bit unprofessional to me telling her to straighten her act if she wants a job anywhere. It isn't his place to tell her that.

You know what I think is unprofessional? Lies and not answering direct business questions. Oh well.
 
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
How much should I tell her?

Not a damn thing. You don't owe her any explanations.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
With what was said above, you pretty potentially broke several HR laws.

I'm curious, but what laws were broken?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
What you did was illegal. You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her.

What would be the claim on such a suit? All he did was go into a place of former employment and ask questions about her that he would have asked anyway on the phone had he called instead.
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lewis
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 31):
You don't owe her any explanations.

Very true, but the OP has already stated:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Part of me wants to do this kid a favor

Which is quite admirable in today's world.
 
aa757first
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
That is all they can say under the HR privacy laws.

What law? None, because this isn't true (in most jurisdictions, at least). An employer cannot defame an employee by making knowingly false statements about employee performance. If they give accurate or mostly accurate information, they're legally protected. They're also legally protected if they were asked to serve as a reference. This sounds to be the case here. Employers have gotten so skiddish about this that many instituted policies that bar their managers from discussing details of employee performance, but there's no law against it.

As a matter of fact, in some states, former employers can be sued for negligent referral, which is when an employer fails to give a truthful and complete reference.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
What you did was illegal. You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her. And you can lose big time on that. You are now between a rock and a very hard place.

Again, under what law? Let's say she graduated from a small college and you recall that another employee graduated in her class. Is it illegal to run the name by that employee? Of course not.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
That is why we have probationary periods.

These exist for very few employees. Most employees in the United States are employed at will, which means they can be fired for any reason at any time, unless the reason is specifically prohibited under law.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Ok.... you talked to a young man behind the counter. Tell us. Did he have the right to speak for the company? Was he perhaps a jilted boyfriend or a guy that had made a pass at the girl and been rejected and now is seeking to trash her.... when the complete opposite of what he says might indeed be the truth? Maybe she quit without notice because her former boss made an inappropriate pass/grab/assault upon her and she chose to leave rather than get the police involved. The trouble is... YOU DON'T KNOW. You could be facing a HUGE settlement if you took this unauthorized information at face value from someone not authorized to give it.... and who wasn't told that the information they were providing in an informal "chat" was in fact being used as a job reference.

Sure, the reference probably doesn't sound solid. But you don't need "authorization" to ask someone what they think of anyone. It may be unwise, but it isn't illegal.

Quoting lewis (Reply 29):
If even a quarter of potential employers that I applied to when I was younger gave me an honest reason for not extending an offer instead of the generic poop they send out (as long as it would not have legal repercussions for them) I would have appreciated them for it and for helping me improve whatever they did not find to their liking.

Exactly. How is this girl ever going to get a job? It would be nice if you could slip it in someway, maybe, "Your references were a little weak."
 
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:07 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 29):
If even a quarter of potential employers that I applied to when I was younger gave me an honest reason for not extending an offer instead of the generic poop they send out (as long as it would not have legal repercussions for them) I would have appreciated them for it and for helping me improve whatever they did not find to their liking.
Quoting lewis (Reply 32):
Quoting redflyer (Reply 31):
You don't owe her any explanations.

Very true, but the OP has already stated:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Part of me wants to do this kid a favor

Which is quite admirable in today's world.

Unfortunately, it is not up to an employer to teach our youth good interview habits or work ethics that should have been taught at home and at school. Once in the door, employment experience may imbue someone with a good work ethic, but getting in the door is not up to the employer.

To the OP, I would say you need to toughen up a bit (and I don't mean to the point of being an ass) otherwise you will put your business at unnecessary risk. Your job is to generate an income and turn a profit, not to instill in some dumb ass a good work ethic. You have much bigger fish to fry.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:19 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
"This is why I'm not hiring you"

Employers don't say that so that they don't have to have a confrontation and it protects them from unwanted problems during the process. HR does not want to call security on an applicant that doesn't take rejection well.....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
...so that the person can (if they are mature enough) can take steps to correct the problem?

Mature enough or not, it wouldn't make any difference. Not everyone takes advice well, someone stated that earlier here on the thread. Giving advice to people that you do not know gets shrugged off real easy and the thought is "You don't know me, screw you!" would be the norm and applicants take offense. The key here is to remain professional at all times and at every level.

But then again, Dreadnought, no offense or disrespect to you at all but, I am glad that I don't work for you nor are you my supervisor nor manager. With your logic on this thread, your opinion scares the crap out of me. You would not be the one I would want to work for. I would rather work for your competitor instead. My private life (in no relation to the thread, I admit) is nobody's business but mine. This is why where I work currently, nobody knows about me outside of work. I have right to privacy and it works well for me. No hassle, no drama. Work stays strictly work.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Lies and not answering direct business questions.

Businesses are not obligated to give reasons for rejections.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 33):
What law? None, because this isn't true (in most jurisdictions, at least).

I have no idea, but everywhere I have applied to at airlines or retail stores had some sort of signs or paperwork that stated it was law.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 33):
An employer cannot defame an employee by making knowingly false statements about employee performance.

That was the point all along whether if it is truthful or not.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 33):
Most employees in the United States are employed at will, which means they can be fired for any reason at any time

All employers have to give new hires 30 days to prove their worth, AFAIK.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 34):
You have much bigger fish to fry.

  
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njxc500
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:22 am

Than you everyone for the input and spirited discussion.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
What you did was illegal.

Here's what I am struggling with now: She provided an employer company name, not a manager name. What stops me from asking anyone at that organization for a reference? The young man had the "appearance of a supervisor". She provided the name of an organization, not a specific person. Again, I'm not sure how the law would specify who could be asked, and if there were a reason I should only ask one person, she should have given me that name.

Just so everyone knows, my state has employer immunity laws so employers are "more" free to give an accurate reference.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:26 am

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
How much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

For Example:
Your references all came back negative.
You lied during your interview.
You quit your last job without notice.

Tell her NOTHING. Simply decline her (preferably by mail, so you don't slip up while speaking to her!)

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
I'm assuming you're talking about hiring someone in the U.S. Giving a bad job review to an outside source can have serious legal ramifications, and that's why calling former employers often garners little useful information. My company allows us to confirm term of employment, title and salary - only. We are instructed to say that our refusal to discuss job performance is neither an endorsement of nor a condemnation of the candidate - it's strictly neutral information we provide.

Any company that I've worked for (and they are some of the biggest firms in their industry in the USA) would not allow ANYONE other than Human Resources provide information for reference checks - to prevent the possibility of lawsuits. As a department manager, I was not allowed to give any information to any caller regarding references. And Human Resources would ONLY provide the above information (dates of service, job title(s), and LAST salary only). Anyone calling and asking for any further information beyond that was promptly silenced. Human Resource departments sometimes utilize third-party websites (because handling HR references take up time and therefore have a labor cost) to verify employment information, and these websites often CHARGE the inquirer for the information. However, there in now a "cottage industry" in FAKE job verification websites...... desperate times leads to desperate measures (or liars)!
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
lewis
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting redflyer (Reply 34):
Unfortunately, it is not up to an employer to teach our youth good interview habits or work ethics that should have been taught at home and at school. Once in the door, employment experience may imbue someone with a good work ethic, but getting in the door is not up to the employer.

Again, as I stated before, I agree that they don't HAVE to but it is just a nice gesture to give a proper reason for the rejection. Some call it feedback and while it is not the employer's responsibility to give it, it is always welcome.

Good interview habits are not something you necessarily get from school and I doubt that you get it from home either. If the reason for rejection has nothing to do with the actual interview or work ethic (which you cannot show until you work BTW), I don't see why it cannot be given. As an example, if a candidate's prior work experience is not good enough for the position, why not tell them? Why keep them barking up the wrong tree instead of telling them that they do not have what is ideal for the job? In the company I work for, I do know that if something goes terribly wrong at the interview, the interviewers usually give an indirect indication of what went wrong. I have left a few interviews knowing what went wrong before even receiving a rejection letter and this was because it was the interviewer's intention.

I have applied to jobs and got a simple generic response and I have also applied for jobs where I got a clear reason for not being accepted, either in writing or verbally. I even had to fill in a feedback form (yes you read correctly) to them regarding my experience during the whole recruiting process. Clearly we are talking about different approaches, which is why we can never probably agree on that matter, since each person has his/her own opinion on how some things at work should be done.


Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 35):
This is why where I work currently, nobody knows about me outside of work.


True, but in many cases, employers do background checks and some may ask you to provide them with a piece of hair or piss in a cup. Nobody really cares what you do in your private life as long as it does not involve criminal activity. If I am not mistaken, the OP cared about tardiness and good general conduct at work, he didn't go around asking for clearly personal information.

[Edited 2012-03-02 07:06:39 by SA7700]
 
aa757first
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 35):
My private life (in no relation to the thread, I admit) is nobody's business but mine. This is why where I work currently, nobody knows about me outside of work. I have right to privacy and it works well for me. No hassle, no drama. Work stays strictly work.

It isn't a wise idea to go snooping around someone's private life, but asking her former manager if she was a good employee is a good idea. Sounds like the OP dodged a bullet on this one.

Also, most employers would disagree with you here. I think recent polls show a majority of employers now look for Facebook profiles. I think this is a bad idea for two reasons. One, most of the information is going to be irrelevant. Who cares that they did a keg stand at a Halloween party or likes a crappy movie or anything else? Plus, the employer is walking into a minefield because AFAIK, you cannot collect information about protected status. If you can find information at all, you're also likely to find out marital status, sexual orientation, religion, national origin and a lot of other illegal stuff.

But, still, employers are doing it.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 35):
I have no idea, but everywhere I have applied to at airlines or retail stores had some sort of signs or paperwork that stated it was law.

It isn't. The statement would have to be "substantially false." Telling a future employer that the person quit without warning is not false. Even saying things like "she was a slow worker" isn't illegal as long as it isn't completely untrue.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 35):
That was the point all along whether if it is truthful or not.

Illegal and accurate are two different things. But then again, I think he found out some valuable information. For one, most employers are not going to give negative reviews unless it is necessary. Plus, she quit without notice. I think that tells you a lot about her, unless there was some dire circumstances. (In which case you'd explain anyway.)

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 35):
All employers have to give new hires 30 days to prove their worth, AFAIK.

About 80% of U.S. workers are classified as at-will. That means you can be fired for any reason, or no reason at all, at anytime, as long as the reason is explicitly prohibited (like race, national origin and, in some states, sexual orientation). Union employees often have probationary periods because they are no longer at will once they are covered under contract.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):
Some call it feedback and while it is not the employer's responsibility to give it, it is always welcome.

The only time I have been allowed to provide interview feedback to any job candidate is when the candidate is an internal candidate, meaning they are already a company employee - usually someone bucking for a promotion. I was never allowed to discuss what "made me" hire an other candidate, only to provide feedback to that inquiring employee directly (ie, you need to look me in the eyes when answering questions, don't fidget with your watch while answering questions, answer the question that I asked and don't go off on tangents!).

Providing interview feedback to outside candidates is a dangerous practice and can lead to lawsuits!

[Edited 2012-03-01 17:40:08]
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:44 am

Quoting njxc500 (Reply 36):
She provided an employer company name, not a manager name.

It is now more common to not give a manager or a supervisor name these days. Don't be shocked if people don't do that anymore. Managers and supervisors change frequently, so it is best to contact the HR of the company in question.

Quoting njxc500 (Reply 36):
What stops me from asking anyone at that organization for a reference?

Getting sued, for starters. The guy you spoke to is more than likely (Actually, a very high possibilty) that he is not authorized to speak for the company when it comes to HR duties.

Quoting njxc500 (Reply 36):
The young man had the "appearance of a supervisor".

Something here tells me that you don't know how to hire. An "appearance of a supervisor" means nothing. Either the gentleman you spoke to is either a supervisor or not a supervisor. I am willing to bet that he is just an average Joe working the cash register. You should be taking to an HR person or the manager of the store, in which case that person would refer you to HR.

Quoting njxc500 (Reply 36):
She provided the name of an organization, not a specific person.

Again, don't be surprised if that happens with another applicant.

StasisLAX has another great point:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 37):
Any company that I've worked for (and they are some of the biggest firms in their industry in the USA) would not allow ANYONE other than Human Resources provide information for reference checks - to prevent the possibility of lawsuits. As a department manager, I was not allowed to give any information to any caller regarding references. And Human Resources would ONLY provide the above information (dates of service, job title(s), and LAST salary only). Anyone calling and asking for any further information beyond that was promptly silenced. Human Resource departments sometimes utilize third-party websites (because handling HR references take up time and therefore have a labor cost) to verify employment information, and these websites often CHARGE the inquirer for the information. However, there in now a "cottage industry" in FAKE job verification websites...... desperate times leads to desperate measures (or liars)!
Quoting aa757first (Reply 40):
That means you can be fired for any reason, or no reason at all, at anytime

AFTER the 30 day period.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 41):
Providing interview feedback to outside candidates is a dangerous practice and can lead to lawsuits!

This is where people here on A.net fail to realize.........
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lewis
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:48 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 41):

Providing interview feedback to outside candidates is a dangerous practice and can lead to lawsuits!

Unless your feedback includes religion, race and other no-nos, I do not see what kind of lawsuit you see could come your way if you reject the candidate for any valid reason you may have. I didn't know I could sue if I am rejected for being under-qualified, having insufficient references or not being straight-forward with my answers. I need to call my lawyer ASAP!

On a serious note, I know where you are coming from and people that interview at my company have strict guidelines on what they can and cannot say too. In the OP's case, telling someone that receiving a simple confirmation of employment is not enough to seal the deal is harmless. An employer has every right to state a need for a true recommendation and not a simple confirmation.
 
redflyer
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:58 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):
Again, as I stated before, I agree that they don't HAVE to but it is just a nice gesture to give a proper reason for the rejection. Some call it feedback and while it is not the employer's responsibility to give it, it is always welcome.

My apologies; I hope I didn't come across as obstinate in my response. I completely agree with you that it would have been a nice gesture. And if a prospective employer could provide feedback with impunity, what better way to polish up one's interview skills? I was fortunate in that my older brother accompanied me on my very first job interview at the age of 15 when I applied to work at a fast-food place managed by a buddy of his. He about beat my ass to a pulp when we came out as he told me what a dumb ass I came across as. Of course, he was pissed because he raved about me to his friend, and I came across as uncaring and uninterested, so it was an embarrassment to him. It was a very valuable lesson from a first interview and I was fortunate to have had such concise feedback. I know most people don't get that kind of feedback, especially when they are young and not savvy in the ways of interviewing.
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lewis
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:10 am

Quoting redflyer (Reply 44):
My apologies;

Really no need for it, I was just trying to make my point clear enough. I do believe the safest bet is for an employer to not give a reason at all, after all, why bother and why lose even 2' to get into any more detail than needed. Since I am at an age not far from when I was first interviewing for jobs and I am already getting involved in my employer's recruiting process, I do see that people miss their chance for trivial reasons that have nothing to do with their work ethic, abilities or personality. I do feel strongly about it, especially when seeing candidates that may have blown it now but do deserve a second chance, perhaps at their next attempt. I also do recognize that a lot of candidates who may be very good for the job miss the opportunity due to their inexperience with interviews. I don't know about some of you, but I have missed a lot of opportunities because I was pretty nervous during my first interviews. Not knowing why I had been rejected before made me even more nervous! I got the hang of it soon afterwards but still, quite a few missed opportunities.
 
aa757first
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:32 am

Quoting njxc500 (Reply 36):
Here's what I am struggling with now: She provided an employer company name, not a manager name. What stops me from asking anyone at that organization for a reference? The young man had the "appearance of a supervisor". She provided the name of an organization, not a specific person. Again, I'm not sure how the law would specify who could be asked, and if there were a reason I should only ask one person, she should have given me that name.

Nothing stops you from getting sued. I suppose you'd be in trouble if you asked about her religion, but you didn't. No one here can point to a specific law that prohibits this practice.

I'm quoting this right from a recently published employment law textbook:
"Defamation is a possibility any time employers make statements about employees to others, but the focus here is on references. The term is being used here in the broad sense of any information that a former employer provides to a prospective new employer regarding a former employee; the former employer need not be specifically designed by the former employee as a 'reference.' ... Defamatory statements are not merely harsh or negative, they must be substantially false."

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):
Good interview habits are not something you necessarily get from school and I doubt that you get it from home either. If the reason for rejection has nothing to do with the actual interview or work ethic (which you cannot show until you work BTW), I don't see why it cannot be given.

In this case, her last employer helped the OP dodge a bullet. Best not to put them in an awkward position.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 42):
Getting sued, for starters. The guy you spoke to is more than likely (Actually, a very high possibilty) that he is not authorized to speak for the company when it comes to HR duties.

Under what grounds could he possibly be sued for asking someone a question? If anything, the guy he asked could get in trouble for responding. Nothing illegal happened, unless he grossly lied about her employment tenure.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 42):
AFTER the 30 day period.

So an employee can show up to work three hours late and sexually harass every other employee for a month before I can fire him?

Employment laws in the United States, like most other laws, spell out what you may not do, not what you may do. Unless there is a specific statute that disallows firing someone fewer than thirty days after hire or calling for references, it is perfectly legal.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):
I would say since young kids nowadays just never seem to be held accountable for anything anymore

You're 25, right?

Anyway, did she lie on her resume? That is something valid to disclose. I think references, though, are held in confidence by tradition, and if you tell her that she might go back to those references upset.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her.

How so if she listed them as a reference?
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Pellegrine
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:03 am

Someone should tell this girl to use a reference checking service.

Meaning you get a company (or just a friend who can fake it) to call your references and see exactly WTF they are saying about you. I don't play when it comes to people uttering words out their mouth about me. I've checked everyone that I would use as a reference at this point.

You can even do this after the fact, e.g. you think you didn't get a job because one of your references was talking s*** about you. It quickly became apparent to me how disgusting some people are with lying on references...giving and getting them. It is a game to be played, so either you need to talk to your references or check up on them without their knowledge.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her.

How so if she listed them as a reference?

Because it sounds like the OP just walked into her former workplace and asked any RANDOM employee about her work performance. Said employee could have had a personal grudge against the applicant and outright LIED to the OP. The OP then used this potentially false and defamatory information to decline employment. The OP can be sued AND the employee(s) at her former workplace can also be sued.

Also, it isn't the LAW that companies will only verify dates of employment. However, many companies will only do that, because they don't want to RISK a lawsuit. Me myself, I would only verify dates if I were in that situation, even if they were a shi**y employee. Why expose your business to unnecessary risk just to have a moment of vengeance with an ex-employee? Also, that is very petty to hurt someone's future job prospects.

For all job applicants: Reference checking services FTW!   

[Edited 2012-03-01 22:15:01]
oh boy!!!
 
AirCanada787
Posts: 255
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:35 am

I'm not sure why I am jumping into this topic so late but I was actually talking about a similar situation with a friend the other day.

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 5):
Normally I'd say go for it, but I'm presuming the manager wouldn't tell you more details because of company policy or data protection? Certainly that has been my experience with a couple of previous employers in the UK who flatly refuse to do anything more than acknowledge that I worked for them, making the 'reference' worth sod all other than filling a gap in my history.
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
I'm assuming you're talking about hiring someone in the U.S. Giving a bad job review to an outside source can have serious legal ramifications, and that's why calling former employers often garners little useful information.

While in school I've also been working for an retail company at the management level, that operates internationally (in over 70 countries) and my partner works for a major university. Neither of us are allowed to give references for past employees, we can only confirm that they worked for us, the position and we can answer if we would hire them again or not. As others have mentioned many companies are now worried about giving references and what ramifications they could have.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I would contact the Admissions office of said school to verify that she does, in fact, have a specific degree.

A very good idea. These days degrees are sometimes forged, in fact in a recent situation I heard about someone claiming to have a degree in a field from a particular institution and the institution didn't even offer any such program.... genius...

Quoting aa757first (Reply 33):
Sure, the reference probably doesn't sound solid. But you don't need "authorization" to ask someone what they think of anyone. It may be unwise, but it isn't illegal.
Quoting aa757first (Reply 46):
Under what grounds could he possibly be sued for asking someone a question? If anything, the guy he asked could get in trouble for responding. Nothing illegal happened, unless he grossly lied about her employment tenure.

But did the opening poster tell the guy why he was asking about the girl? It could have influenced his answers. Its not illegal to ask someone what they think about someone but do they have a right to know why your asking the questions? This is really more or a moral question I think.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 48):

Someone should tell this girl to use a reference checking service.

Meaning you get a company (or just a friend who can fake it) to call your references and see exactly WTF they are saying about you. I don't play when it comes to people uttering words out their mouth about me. I've checked everyone that I would use as a reference at this point.

  

The whole reference checking service idea sounds great. I guess I would just not want them to contact my current employer if I wasn't actively looking for a job but to check other references to test them it sounds like a great idea.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:15 am

Quoting aa757first (Reply 46):
So an employee can show up to work three hours late and sexually harass every other employee for a month before I can fire him?

You are going off base here, you know exactly that is not what I meant. Your question is not even worthy enough to respond to.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 46):
If anything, the guy he asked could get in trouble for responding.

He should be in deep doo-doo for that. If he is not in HR, he has no business discussing a past employee's tenure with the company, full stop. If he was my employee, he would have been shown the door pronto.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 46):
Nothing illegal happened, unless he grossly lied about her employment tenure.

We don't know that. I am going to assume that the latter is probably what has happened. Everybody Lies. But then again, what this guy at the cash register did was wrong. He should be fired.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 47):
How so if she listed them as a reference?

Let me ask you this, Doc: Why in the heck would you want a reference from a place that you hated working at with people who treated you like crap? That makes no sense.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 48):
Said employee could have had a personal grudge against the applicant and outright LIED to the OP.

The more I think about it, this is probably exactly what happened setting this girl up for failure. Only get references from who you can really trust.
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njxc500
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Posts: 194
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RE: Hiring An Employee, Bad References

Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting aa757first (Reply 44):
Nothing stops you from getting sued.

Duly noted, and I think we can all agree on this one.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 46):
The OP can be sued AND the employee(s) at her former workplace can also be sued.

MN law prevents the previous employer from being sued, specifically since 2004. The employee would have to prove that every detail was false, and they carry the burden of proof. Read the law "clear and convincing evidence that:
• The information was false and defamatory"

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 48):
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 48):
Said employee could have had a personal grudge against the applicant and outright LIED to the OP.

The more I think about it, this is probably exactly what happened setting this girl up for failure. Only get references from who you can really trust.

If this was the case, I would absolutely look past it at least for a 30 day probationary. We have a second reference IN WRITING that confirms every detail, from a separate company, separate people, same information.

The many posts I think show how controversial this topic can be, but I know you all understand that the proper employees make or break a company. This is the reason I'm here asking questions, I don't want to pass this person up if she has more to this story, unfortunately it all appears to be true.

I show the utmost respect to everyone that works for me, but I reserve the right to gather all information possible, this is my livelihood we are talking about.

Thank you to everyone for the input, we will be moving along to another applicant, but I hope this girl learns a little something here without me telling her.

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