Quokkas
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US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:56 am

Al Jazeera is reporting that a US soldier has shot dead several Afghans before handing himself in.

Quote:
"The soldier went through three separate houses, shooting at people as they slept in their beds. After the soldier shot these people, he turned himself in.

It is not known what triggered this action - perhaps the accumulated stress of working in a hostile environment.

Coming so soon after the Qur'an burning incident, this may trigger further anti-American sentiment and violence. Relations between the US and the Government in Kabul, already described as tense, are likely to be more strained.

My hope is that any further loss of lives on all sides can be avoided.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:49 pm

In this eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth society only a public execution by hanging or firing squad of the soldier outside the US military camp, no reasons why he killed the civilians, will satisfy the Afghan public.
They would expect exactly the same from the Afghan justice system if an Afghan would have committed the murders.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ltbewr
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:56 pm

This will probably be played down by the USA press for obvious reasons. Part of the blame is that often the 'enemy' is not in a uniform in post-WW II warfare. Part is that the USA is in a place where they or any other 'infidel outsider' is not wanted. The USA has been in Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban rule as revenge for a major supporter of the al-Queda movement that was behind the terror acts and de facto acts of war of 9/11. Problem is that we have created a endless loop of attacks that eventually the Afghans will win with our withdrawal that no politican in the USA wants to give on.

To the Afghans, probably the only penalty for this solder, if he did these events, would be a painful execution in public and who could blame them. They don't see mental stress as an excuse due their lack of education as to such factors as well as narrow tribal and religious beliefs. What a sorry situation and I hope the solder(s) involved do face military criminal persecution as well as get the mental health help they need.
 
Quokkas
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:13 pm

In all possibility their will be revenge killings. But the family of the victims can "excuse" the killer if they so choose. There has been a number of instances where Australia has paid compensation to the families of people killed accidentally, by cross fire, stray bullets, that sort of thing.

Quote:
The payments serve as compensation but are also made for cultural reasons. Pashtun tribespeople are beholden to seek revenge where their people have been wronged, but will settle grievances with cash.

The link is a bit dated but the practice still continues.

Whether the families will be as forgiving in this instance which to them may be seen as premeditated...

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
I hope the solder(s) involved do face military criminal persecution

I don't know whether the US adopts the same approach to compensation as the Australians do, but I believe that the soldier will be subject to US Military discipline and receive a medical assessment and any help required. One of the sticking points in the negotiations between the US and Kabul has been over jurisdiction in matters involving serving personnel, so there is no chance that the soldier will be subjected to Afghan laws. He will still be entitled to fair treatment.

But this incident certainly makes it harder for all the troops on the ground. As I say, let us hope that the damage can be contained.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
imiakhtar
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
What a sorry situation and I hope the solder(s) involved do face military criminal persecution
muslim life is cheap

The US Marine Corps has discharged the man convicted over the killing of Iraqi civilians in Haditha, a spokesman said.

Former Sgt Frank Wuterich, 31, was given a general discharge under honourable conditions and completed his service on Friday, he added


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
Whatever happened to Leon Trotsky?
 
Rara
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:51 pm

While this is horrible and tragic, I wouldn't place it in any larger context. Stuff like that happens if you supply a large number of men with very deadly machinery.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
NAV20
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
What a sorry situation and I hope the solder(s) involved do face military criminal persecution as well as get the mental health help they need.

I'm afraid that, in Western legal terms, ltbewr, it has to be one thing or the other. If the guy can be shown to have been legally insane at the time (which seems only too likely), he can be committed to a mental institution (for the rest of his life, if that turns out to be necessary) - but he cannot be convicted of murder. Still less executed for it.

I wouldn't expect the Afghans (or, indeed, quite a high proportion of Westerners) fully to understand or accept that principle. But it's our system - the system under which the guy will be tried. And in my view it's the only 'proper' system - I wouldn't care to live under the alternative, which would amount to executing mad (nowadays they say 'mentally ill') people.......

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 3):
But this incident certainly makes it harder for all the troops on the ground.

I'd agree, but go further, Quokkas. I think it makes the task facing the other guys downright impossible. In my view, the Afghanistan thing is over, and the sooner we get the Americans, British, Australians, and all the other 'coalition' troops
out of there, the better.

It's just 'over.'
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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Mortyman
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:03 pm

9 of the killed where children ...

http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/03/11/n...tenriks/drap/afghanistan/20633775/



These kind of incidents also have direct consecuence on soldiers from other nations in the country. As a direct conscuense of the burning of the Koran in february, a led and built Norwegian millitary base was attacked by over 200 protesters armed with rocks and handgrenades. The base is Norwegian, but soldiers from other nations are also stationed inside, including American.:

You can see pictures of that here:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/03/11/n...ghanistan/norge/meymaneh/20635875/


Unfortunetly the Afghan people don't see the difference between an US millitary uniform and that of other nations ...

[Edited 2012-03-11 07:07:36]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
I'd agree, but go further, Quokkas. I think it makes the task facing the other guys downright impossible. In my view, the Afghanistan thing is over, and the sooner we get the Americans, British, Australians, and all the other 'coalition' troops
out of there, the better.

But we should give all the progressive Afghans, who hoped that NATO would help them to bring Afghanistan into the 21th century and who would now be on the Taliban execution list (among them many women) asylum in Europe, Australia, Canada or the US.

Also to those later, who don´t want to live under Taliban rule.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
windy95
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:07 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
This will probably be played down by the USA press for obvious reasons

Like Abu Ghraib or Haditha?
 
jcs17
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:32 pm

Is it politically incorrect to say I really don't care? American soldiers by accident burned some copies of the Koran, and several are massacred at their bases. Bases at which American and coalition troops are trying to draw up plans to help the Afghan people and rid them of the Taliban. Burn a Bible or a copy of the Torah, 50% of believers would just shrug, the other 50% would say it's offensive and then shrug.

I'm so tired of trying to help a people whose mentality is rooted firmly in the eighth century. The politically correct say no one culture is better than another, I would direct their eyes to Afghanistan and Pakistan. I dare you to tell me those cultures are equal to ours.

[Edited 2012-03-11 10:35:17]
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wolbo
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):

Is it politically incorrect to say I really don't care?

Don't think it has anything to do with being politically incorrect. While I share some of your frustration about the situation in Afghanistan I find it sad when a human being doesn't care anymore about 9 innocent children being shot in their sleep.


Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):

I'm so tired of trying to help a people whose mentality is rooted firmly in the eighth century.

Sounds like another lost vote for Santorum.
 
PSA53
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:13 pm

As usual,civilians are caught in the middle of wartime,just like Vietnam,I don't remember the guys name,but a US soldier opening fire killing people is not the first time.Very sad.

Some other thoughts:

I don't give a crap what the Taliban say nor should they be given the spotlight as it's dynminte oppotuntity for them but the ultra liberal media will give them 24/7 coverage.

Maybe it's time for Obama to pull out.He might win the election hands down if he does.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
Ken777
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:21 pm

I believe that we need to take a hard look at the shooter, including how many times he has been deployed into combat.

We have had over a decade of wars without a draft. Instead of young men (and women) serving 2 years, with 8 to 12 months in a war zone, we have young men and women serving multiple deployments. Forced retention after the normal period of active duty commitment has also caused problems.

I wouldn't be surprised if this young man has been over deployed, or has PTSD. While I can deeply regret the loss of life we also need to understand that we have created these situations.
 
PSA53
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
We have had over a decade of wars without a draft. Instead of young men (and women) serving 2 years, with 8 to 12 months in a war zone, we have young men and women serving multiple deployments. Forced retention after the normal period of active duty commitment has also caused problems.



Well put. Been thinking that myself.But what politician wants to make such a suggestion in bringing back the draft.
It's almost committing political suicide. And the media certainly won't encourage it.
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
ronglimeng
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:24 pm

I don't suppose that you guys with the American flags in your headers, expressing a minimal sympathy to the dead, but then spending most of your post suggesting how this tragedy can be explained...i.e. showing sympathy and understanding towards the killer, realise that you appear just like the moderate Muslims who come here and attempt to explain the actions of their own crazy people ?
 
PSA53
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:33 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 16):
I don't suppose that you guys with the American flags in your headers, expressing a minimal sympathy to the dead, but then spending most of your post suggesting how this tragedy can be explained...i.e. showing sympathy and understanding towards the killer, realise that you appear just like the moderate Muslims who come here and attempt to explain the actions of their own crazy people ?

Are we better in our trying an explaination and accounting of this tradegy then that of the Taliban, who are in the same league as sadistic drug dealers, who have done far,far FAR worse to they're own people without shedding any tears? And not even being accounted for?

[Edited 2012-03-11 12:57:26]
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mariner
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:37 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
In my view, the Afghanistan thing is over, and the sooner we get the Americans, British, Australians, and all the other 'coalition' troops
out of there, the better.

It's just 'over.'

I think it was "over" some time ago. Once bin Laden was found I could not work why we - Australians - were still there and no politician, of any party, has ever been able to explain to me what "victory" in Afghanistan looks like.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Ken777
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
Maybe it's time for Obama to pull out.He might win the election hands down if he does.

Well he HAS gotten us out of Iraq and is pushing for an exit from Afghanistan.

[Edited 2012-03-11 13:11:31 by srbmod]
 
ltbewr
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:59 pm

The saddest part of this whole situation is a number of children were brutally murdered for just being in the wrong place in the wrong time. As to the American solder alleged to have done these apparent terrible actions, I am not excusing him.

We also don't know the situation at the location of these deadly shootings, if the men there were being sought for involvement in killing American soldiers by IED's or by guns or had taken a defensive position with their guns drawn and ready for use when the American soldiers entered.

It would be interesting if there were other American solders with the alleged shooter and they did little to stop the alleged atrocity or if they had bad or deliberately incorrect information by their Afghan sources as wanted this household's persons dead for their own reasons. Still, even then, it would not rationalize or be acceptable to have murdered the children.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
Bases at which American and coalition troops are trying to draw up plans to help the Afghan people and rid them of the Taliban.

It will never happen. A day or two after we leave Afghanistan, things will be back to just like it were before. The correct balance between firepower and aid is needed to convince the Afgahn people not to fall in under Taliban rule. Sadly the correct balance is not present. There is just way to little effort in the aid expenditures compared to the millitary expenditures.

[Edited 2012-03-11 13:43:49]
 
photopilot
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
As usual,civilians are caught in the middle of wartime,just like Vietnam,I don't remember the guys name,but a US soldier opening fire killing people is not the first time.

It was the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam and Second Lieutenant William Calley, a platoon leader was found guilty of killing 22 villagers. He was originally given a life sentence, but only served three and a half years under house arrest.

Basically, another white-wash by the US Military and a slap on the wrist for the murders. Frankly, I don't expect much better this time when the US and it's military are involved. American soldiers have a history of wanton killing of civilians and the list is long of the atrocities committed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised if this young man has been over deployed, or has PTSD.

Sounds like the apologists are already lining up their excuses.

Oh, and you might want to read this report.

"They (Americans) poured chemicals over their dead bodies and burned them," Samad told Reuters at the scene.

Neighbors said they had awoken to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, who they described as laughing and drunk.

"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said neighbor Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where killings took place.

"Their (the victims') bodies were riddled with bullets."


Full story here. Of course the American's are denying everything, but multiple witnesses are reporting different versions of events.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/soldier-det...civilian-casualties-060915360.html
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:04 pm

I hope he will be taken before the martial court to be judged and he will be punished to the extent of the rampage he has committed.

He is a serial murderer whatever his motivations might be.

I would have no pity on such an individual. No forgiveness.

RIP innocent victims.

 Wow!
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SOBHI51
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
innocent victims

Some here do not agree it seems

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
I'm so tired of trying to help a people whose mentality is rooted firmly in the eighth century. The politically correct say no one culture is better than another, I would direct their eyes to Afghanistan and Pakistan. I dare you to tell me those cultures are equal to ours.

 
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
flood
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:58 pm

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
Is it politically incorrect to say I really don't care?
Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
I dare you to tell me those cultures are equal to ours.

Claiming your culture is somehow superior while not caring about the murder of innocent children. That's brilliant.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:06 pm

What a ****. Rip to the kids and folks who were killed. This one twisted moron just made the target on every other soldiers head that much more bigger, They will now all suffer even more because of his actions. How many years of "hearts and minds" wiped out by 1 psycho?

As for anyone trying to make an excuse for him, Get a grip of reality.. I tend to defend the west and USA etc when people on here attack them non stop for any little reason but I hate when hypocrites back someone merely because they were wearing the military uniform of their country. He went into houses and murdered atleast 9 children and set fire to them. He was so mentaly unstable he didnt shoot himself or any other soldiers just some kids and then turned himself in calmly? Gimme a break.. Cold blooded killer that deserves to be put down.

I would bet a large majority of his comrades wont be forgiving him for making their life a hell of alot harder.
 
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n229nw
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:14 pm

That is sick.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 15):
I don't suppose that you guys with the American flags in your headers, expressing a minimal sympathy to the dead, but then spending most of your post suggesting how this tragedy can be explained...i.e. showing sympathy and understanding towards the killer, realise that you appear just like the moderate Muslims who come here and attempt to explain the actions of their own crazy people ?

  
But don't expect certain people to be able to understand that.

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
Is it politically incorrect to say I really don't care?

I don't know what it has to do with political correctness. To me it just seems callous and cruel to say that, not to mention a double standard. Or maybe not, as long as you don't give a crap when people in that part of the world don't care about 9/11 and a bunch of other stuff that you probably want them to care about.

As for the rest of your statement, if our way of "helping" them consists of propping up other brutal leaders, regular killing of civilians (mainly accidental but not always), not doing anything to wind down internal warfare (in fact the opposite), all while acting arrogant and oblivious to local culture and demanding gratitude--well then we don't seem to be living in the twenty-first century either.

I'm not excusing brutality on the part of Afghans--no way--but we aren't going to change that by the bullet, especially as outsiders with no interest (nor proper money nor time) in doing anything in a culturally appropriate way. So we are only hurting everyone by trying.

We need to be out of there--just OUT and quickly. While I feel horrible for those who will suffer when the Taliban moves back in after we leave, by staying there we are not making things better (as witness all the civilians we are killing and the other brutal warlords we are supporting in order to beat back the Taliban) nor are we preventing the inevitable when we do go.

We do need to accept a lot of refugees when we go though.
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:37 pm

I just dont understand how he can walk off base at 0300 by himself randomly... it shouldnt be possible. It is not only the psycho murderer that has questions to answer thats for sure.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
In this eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth society only a public execution by hanging or firing squad of the soldier outside the US military camp, no reasons why he killed the civilians, will satisfy the Afghan public.
They would expect exactly the same from the Afghan justice system if an Afghan would have committed the murders.

But in Afghan society, the offender can be "forgiven" for his actions by the families of those harmed/killed, usually for a significant sum of money or property. But the Taliban will use this event to incite more murders of American troops, for sure.

Furthermore, the acute psychological damage of a 11 year war and multiple deployments is clearly showing through. I truly hope that the Veternans Administration is prepared for the deeply damaged and broken military members that are now being discharged into the American (and NATO) civillian populations, as I fear that these mass shootings could EASILY happen back home. The level of drug addiction, alcoholism, and occurrences of domestic violence is sky-rocketing with the recently discharged vets. Can the members of the US Congress and two American Administrations sleep at night knowing what hell they have caused over a search for non-existent weapons of mass destruction and the hunt for Osama, while the damn Pakistani military and ISI helped OBL skip back and forth across the Afghan-Pakistani border in a game of cat and mouse - and finally allowed OBL to hide in a mansion is the Pakistani military city that is its version of "West Point". Unbelievable!!

Enough is enough, leave the Afghanis and the Pakistanis to deal with their situation, because the West can NEVER resolve it - 11 years is much too long, the cost of the war is much too high, and we're in danger of having such severely mentally damaged vets that could lead to mass civilian killings (both in Afghanistan and at HOME) and extremely high health costs (both mental health and physical health) that the Veterans Administration is NOT prepared to handle. Such a damn shame, all the way around.   

[Edited 2012-03-11 15:56:00]
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TheCol
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 15):

We live in a civilized society, with a civilized justice system. The search of an explanation (ie. investigation) is absolutely necessary. If the shooter is deemed to be criminally insane, then he should be institutionalized and, if possible, rehabilitated. If not, then he'll be locked up.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 21):

Full story here. Of course the American's are denying everything, but multiple witnesses are reporting different versions of events.

Totally Incorrect

U.S. officials said an American staff sergeant from a unit based in Washington state was in custody after the attack on villagers in three houses. Multiple civilians were also wounded, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) coalition said

A senior U.S. defense official in Washington rejected witness accounts that several apparently drunk soldiers were involved. "Based on the preliminary information we have this account is flatly wrong," the official said. "We believe one U.S. service member acted alone, not a group of U.S. soldiers."

What part of that don't you understand? You wouldn't expect a bunch of police detectives to take initial statements as fact, without further investigation and follow-ups, so why would you expect the MP's to conduct themselves any differently?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):

What if he was found to be psychologically impaired? Can't blame the guy if he totally cracked-up and lost all sanity.

For the record, since I'm apparently evil and insensitive if I don't state the obvious, this is a very tragic situation and all efforts must be made to ensure civilized justice is served for the people of Afghanistan.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 30):
What if he was found to be psychologically impaired? Can't blame the guy if he totally cracked-up and lost all sanity.

Cool, Lets use that crap excuse for everyone who murders. .every day everywhere. Would love to see the opinion of the same people if some random sicko turned up at their house and murdered their children then some stooge lawyer got him off with the insanity plea. The guy shot a 2 year old for **** sake. Any excuses for him are beyond disgusting.
 
QANTAS077
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:41 pm

interesting, American's polled about the punishment that Maj Hasan should receive believe he should be put to death, I wonder if they will feel the same about this chap?

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
I dare you to tell me those cultures are equal to ours.

hmm...where do we start? how about Tim McVeigh? perhaps shopping mall shooting sprees, post office shooting sprees, school shooting sprees, university shooting sprees...I wonder where they get the idea for this type of mindless violence?
  
 
aloges
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:53 pm

   to the victims. Wherever they are now, may they find the peace that they probably never had on earth.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
BMI727
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:04 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):

In this eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth society only a public execution by hanging or firing squad of the soldier outside the US military camp, no reasons why he killed the civilians, will satisfy the Afghan public.

In that case they will be unsatisfied.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 3):

In all possibility their will be revenge killings.

If there are I only hope that American retaliation will be swift.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 7):
As a direct conscuense of the burning of the Koran in february, a led and built Norwegian millitary base was attacked by over 200 protesters armed with rocks and handgrenades.

The soldiers inside would have no problem justifying fighting back then.

Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
Once bin Laden was found I could not work why we - Australians - were still there and no politician, of any party, has ever been able to explain to me what "victory" in Afghanistan looks like.

The war in Afghanistan has little to do with Afghanistan other than the fact that Afghanistan is where the terrorists decided to set up shop.

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 25):
They will now all suffer even more because of his actions. How many years of "hearts and minds" wiped out by 1 psycho?

That is the mistake. The war shouldn't be about hearts and minds. The war shouldn't be about building schools or spreading democracy. The war should be about killing people who want to kill us. I couldn't care less why the terrorists want to kill us, if you are going to become a terrorist we will do everything in our power to kill or capture you, end of story.

...but it does equal superior ass-kicking ability, which is at least as important.

[Edited 2012-03-11 19:29:57 by SA7700]
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aloges
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:09 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
...but it does equal superior ass-kicking ability, which is at least as important.

Boy, have you got a lot to learn...
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
PPVRA
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:14 am

Time to leave Afghanistan. These events, along with collateral damage, are turning the Afghanis against the coalition. Saying "sorry" works a couple of times, but when it keeps repeating, you are mistaken to think the Afghanis will take "sorry" again and again. Stopping and leaving Afghanistan is the best damage-control strategy long-term.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ual777
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 21):

Basically, another white-wash by the US Military and a slap on the wrist for the murders. Frankly, I don't expect much better this time when the US and it's military are involved. American soldiers have a history of wanton killing of civilians and the list is long of the atrocities committed.

When compared to who?!

The US military has a pristine record when compared to most other countries in wartime.

False. The vast majority of Afghan opium goes to Europe/Russia. What does it say when a culture covers women from head to toe, curtails personal liberty, and responds to infidelity with stoning?

Your hate of the US is obvious and I am afraid it has blinded you.

For the record, what this guy did is totally atrocious. I think he has mental issues and needs to be punished to the fullest extent possible.

[Edited 2012-03-11 19:31:40 by SA7700]
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Flighty
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:04 am

It's not credible to invade somebody, sit around blowing up the land for 10-20 years and expect them to like us. Our strategy was designed by fools but the enemy is far smarter.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 37):
What does it say when a culture covers women from head to toe, curtails personal liberty, and responds to infidelity with stoning?

I do not understand the following, when the Afghans, Pakistanis, Arabs or Muslims do stupid act of killing it's there culture at fault, fine, but when the innocent from them get murdered for no reason it is also there culture to blame      
so because in that part of the world the women are covered from head to tow, no personal liberties and punish infidelity with stoning (not that i agree with all that) it is legal or ok to kill them?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
Ken777
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:20 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 20):
A day or two after we leave Afghanistan, things will be back to just like it were before.

Probably. Which our efforts in the ME should have been to go after OBL. Instead Bush & Cheney decided to go after OIL, not OBL.

In general terms, if we haven't been able to improve the country after all the years there then we won't be able to if we stay another 10 or 100 years/

Quoting photopilot (Reply 21):
Basically, another white-wash by the US Military and a slap on the wrist for the murders.

The military is going to be similar to civilian legal systems in that there might be legitimate mental problems that caused the guy to do what he did.

If he is just a mean SOB who like killing then he can be given the death penalty. Just like in the US criminal courts.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 21):
American soldiers have a history of wanton killing of civilians and the list is long of the atrocities committed.

Just American soldiers? We are the only army with such a history?

How about our history of being vigorous in battle, but then providing care (from medical to food) to the "other side".

Quoting photopilot (Reply 21):
Sounds like the apologists are already lining up their excuses

I don't consider myself an apologist, but I also believe that we have some seriously messed up young men and women from over deployments to the ME. It is folly to believe that every American returning will be a perfect citizen - we have seen that all too often.

And I was pretty clear about why I am concerned about the mental problems from over deployments.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
He is a serial murderer whatever his motivations might be.

And if he is he may well be strapped down in the death chamber and given the Jesus Juice. We do that around here, even though at a lower rate than we used to.

If, however, the guy has combat related mental issues then we need to live with that, just as we do with giving the guy Jesus Juice.
 
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modernArt
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 21):
American soldiers have a history of wanton killing of civilians and the list is long of the atrocities committed.

I take it history is not your strong subject.
 
Flighty
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
The military is going to be similar to civilian legal systems in that there might be legitimate mental problems that caused the guy to do what he did.

If he is just a mean SOB who like killing then he can be given the death penalty. Just like in the US criminal courts.

As long as we treat Muslims overseas or Americans with dark skin by the same standard, giving them the benefit of the doubt, (which we always should)...



Just saw a great suggestion online. This "soldier" should be handed over to Afghan authorities. Let them put him on trial and do whatever they like with him. It's their country so... give them that.


[Edited 2012-03-11 19:10:12]
 
NAV20
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting photopilot, Reply 21:

"Full story here. Of course the American's are denying everything, but multiple witnesses are reporting different versions of events."


Thanks for the link, photopilot. Yes, from that (Reuters) story there are already plenty of signs that maybe a cover-up has already begun (I've quoted excerpts only, to keep the post as short as possible):-

"KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Sixteen Afghan civilians, including nine children, were shot dead in what witnesses described as a nighttime massacre on Sunday near a U.S. base in southern Afghanistan, and one U.S. soldier was in custody.

"U.S. officials said an American staff sergeant from a unit based in Washington state was in custody after the attack on villagers in three houses. Multiple civilians were also wounded, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) coalition said."


So sixteen dead and 'multiple' wounded. By one man. Given the rates of fire achievable by modern self-loading/full automatic weapons, I look forward to hearing that he was earlier observed driving a jeepload of small-arms ammunition out of the base........  

"There were conflicting reports of how many shooters were involved, with U.S. officials asserting that a lone soldier was responsible, in contrast to witnesses' accounts that several U.S. soldiers were present.

"Neighbors and relatives of the dead said they had seen a group of U.S. soldiers arrive at their village in Kandahar's Panjwayi district at about 2 a.m., enter homes and open fire.

"An Afghan man who said his children were killed in the shooting spree accused soldiers of later burning the bodies.

"They (Americans) poured chemicals over their dead bodies and burned them," Samad told Reuters at the scene.

Neighbors said they had awoken to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, who they described as laughing and drunk.

"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said neighbor Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where killings took place.

"Their (the victims') bodies were riddled with bullets."


My own provisional conclusion is that there is a distinct possibility, on present evidence, that some or all of an entire unit went berserk and had a killing spree - and that afterwards the commander of the unit told the others to make themselves scarce and gave himself up in an attempt to take all the blame himself.

The Reuters story also appears to cover the beginning of an attempted official cover-up; or at the least, short-term 'damage limitation':-

"A senior U.S. defense official in Washington rejected witness accounts that several apparently drunk soldiers were involved. "Based on the preliminary information we have this account is flatly wrong," the official said. "We believe one U.S. service member acted alone, not a group of U.S. soldiers."

[Edited 2012-03-11 19:16:49]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Quokkas
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:05 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
In my view, the Afghanistan thing is over,
Quoting mariner (Reply 17):
I think it was "over" some time ago.

I concur and even suggest that it was over before it started. No outside force has been able to impose its definition of order in the area in centuries. I really don't understand why the US and its allies thought that we could do better. As it is our Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, has repeated that it won't affect the ADF's role:

Quote:
"It's not going to distract us from our purpose in Afghanistan and our clear sense of mission in Afghanistan. We know what we're there to do, we know the time frame that we are doing it on, and our commitment remains clear," she said.

In other words: we are there as long as the US wants our political support. After all, Australia needs to be seen as supporting the US if we want the US to establish a base in Darwin. (Source ABC News)

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised if this young man has been over deployed

It is being reported that

Quote:
The soldier, who was reported to be a staff sergeant and father of three who has done three tours of duty in Iraq,

so after the tours of Iraq he has seen additional combat duty in Afghanistan. (Source: The Guardian)

Meanwhile President Obama has apologised, saying

Quote:
"I offer my condolences to the families and loved ones of those who lost their lives, and to the people of Afghanistan, who have endured too much violence and suffering.

and went on to stress

Quote:
This incident … does not represent the exceptional character of our military and the respect that the United States has for the people of Afghanistan."

(Source: Guardian link above)

Even Newt Gingrich, who in the past has accused Obama of pandering too much, is reported as having

Quote:
... called for America to reconsider its role there.

"I think it's going to get substantially worse, not better. And I think that we're risking the lives of young men and women in a mission that may frankly not be doable."

(Source ABC News link above)
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:26 am

Quoting ModernArt (Reply 40):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 21):
American soldiers have a history of wanton killing of civilians and the list is long of the atrocities committed.

I take it history is not your strong subject.

Just check the Filipino-American war during the late 19th, early 20th century.
There were numerous systematic attrocities committed by the US forces (largely forgotten today). The local commander (General Otis) issued censorship orders to his soldiers to prevent news about these attrocities from getting to the press.
I won´t mention the Indian wars of the mid to late 19th century, the Korean war (e.g. the Bodo League massacre, while carried out by South Korean troops, but fully sanctioned and observed by US officers) and in Vietnam.
While most GIs are decent people, your forces are by far not as squeaky clean as always pretended.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:30 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
Quoting photopilot, Reply 21:

"Full story here. Of course the American's are denying everything, but multiple witnesses are reporting different versions of events."

Thanks for the link, photopilot. Yes, from that (Reuters) story there are already plenty of signs that maybe a cover-up has already begun (I've quoted excerpts only, to keep the post as short as possible):-

"KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Sixteen Afghan civilians, including nine children, were shot dead in what witnesses described as a nighttime massacre on Sunday near a U.S. base in southern Afghanistan, and one U.S. soldier was in custody.

"U.S. officials said an American staff sergeant from a unit based in Washington state was in custody after the attack on villagers in three houses. Multiple civilians were also wounded, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) coalition said."

So sixteen dead and 'multiple' wounded. By one man. Given the rates of fire achievable by modern self-loading/full automatic weapons, I look forward to hearing that he was earlier observed driving a jeepload of small-arms ammunition out of the base........

"There were conflicting reports of how many shooters were involved, with U.S. officials asserting that a lone soldier was responsible, in contrast to witnesses' accounts that several U.S. soldiers were present.

"Neighbors and relatives of the dead said they had seen a group of U.S. soldiers arrive at their village in Kandahar's Panjwayi district at about 2 a.m., enter homes and open fire.

"An Afghan man who said his children were killed in the shooting spree accused soldiers of later burning the bodies.

"They (Americans) poured chemicals over their dead bodies and burned them," Samad told Reuters at the scene.

Neighbors said they had awoken to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, who they described as laughing and drunk.

"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said neighbor Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where killings took place.

"Their (the victims') bodies were riddled with bullets."

My own provisional conclusion is that there is a distinct possibility, on present evidence, that some or all of an entire unit went berserk and had a killing spree - and that afterwards the commander of the unit told the others to make themselves scarce and gave himself up in an attempt to take all the blame himself.

The Reuters story also appears to cover the beginning of an attempted official cover-up; or at the least, short-term 'damage limitation':-

"A senior U.S. defense official in Washington rejected witness accounts that several apparently drunk soldiers were involved. "Based on the preliminary information we have this account is flatly wrong," the official said. "We believe one U.S. service member acted alone, not a group of U.S. soldiers."

it looks like Karzai is playing politics and in view of a possible NATO withdrawal from Afghanistan, is trying to make friends with the Taliban,

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
soon7x7
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 21):
Full story here. Of course the American's are denying everything, but multiple witnesses are reporting different versions of events.


Al Jazeera...about as credible as the New York times...Not!...And such is war, one we responded too. If two buildings in New York City were not randomly selected and destroyed along with all those within its walls, by those with hearts filled with Anti- American sentiment, I do believe this alleged atrocity would not have taken place...if it is in fact true. Expect more to come as long as that Anti-American sentiment still runs through the veins of many...till you need our help...I can't imagine the hell these guys go through over in the middle east as the focus of the mission is long gone and so should we be. If Pakistan Egypt, Afghanistan, want to implode, then so be it. I wouldn't want us their either. As far as I'm concerned our business is done there.
 
TheCol
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 4:27 am

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 30):

You're free to go live in Afghanistan if that's the kind of justice you want to see.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
on present evidence

I wasn't aware you had access to all the evidence. Would you mind sharing with the rest of us?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
that some or all of an entire unit went berserk and had a killing spree - and that afterwards the commander of the unit told the others to make themselves scarce and gave himself up in an attempt to take all the blame himself.
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 42):
The Reuters story also appears to cover the beginning of an attempted official cover-up; or at the least, short-term 'damage limitation':-

  

You're way out on the deep end with that unless you have some concrete evidence to back it up. So far there is nothing to go on but a bunch of unsubstantiated and conflicting statements from individuals that were allegedly at the scene during the attack. If you're interested in real justice, then you can sit and wait like the rest of us until the investigation is complete before passing judgement.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
QFA380
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:54 am

I'd certainly feel more sympathy if I didn't read every other week that Afghan soldiers have decided to kill Coalition forces. Troops are supposed to feel safe on base, its their home on deployment. Do they know if this guy was close with any of the Coalition troops that have been slayed by Afghan soldiers?

We need to leave Afghanistan badly. Lock off the borders, patrol with a few drones and let them fight it out. Just like we're thankfully doing in Syria and should have done in Libya.

Karzai is scum, practically encouraging his people to go kill Coalition troops, while he has his hand out for more aid money. The Afghan Air Force probably needs some planes for [s]running drugs[/s] fighting the Taliban, while the Army needs guns with a faster fire rate, M16's probably don't have the fire rate to kill more than 3 or so troops in ~15 seconds before we fight back.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree

Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:52 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 47):
You're free to go live in Afghanistan if that's the kind of justice you want to see.

I am also free not to shoot a bunch of kids in the head.. Free will and all that. Defend the child murderer if you must.. That poor bloke, Signed up to be in the military and then psychoticly murdered sleeping civilians only to be held apart from every other murderer because he was in uniform. What a hero.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 48):
I'd certainly feel more sympathy if I didn't read every other week that Afghan soldiers have decided to kill Coalition forces. Troops are supposed to feel safe on base, its their home on deployment. Do they know if this guy was close with any of the Coalition troops that have been slayed by Afghan soldiers?

I dont see how there is any logic in that. If he hates Afghan troops go shoot them. 9 Children and some old people sleeping in bed? Do me a favour. Picked on a bunch of innocents that couldnt defend themselves.

Its amazing.. if a story popped up in the news that some guy murdered a child in the USA or UK or any other English speaking country everyone would be appalled screaming for his head. This guy takes out 9 and has sympathisers because they are in some far off land where the oogy boogy men come from. Should be ashamed to be honest.

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