mcdu
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:00 am

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Miami-F...opular-Videos-Fired-142762675.html

Wow, that was fast! This was a hotly debated topic here just a couple of weeks ago. Personally I am glad to see AA take a stand. The blog had some potential slanderous statements about managers.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11179
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:04 am

"Fighting his termination"? He seemed like he couldn't wait to leave.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
darthluke12694
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:47 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:17 am

Wow....interesting. All that this is going to do is give Gailen David, along with American Airlines more publicity. Another "free speech" case. I'm on both sides with this one. David talked bad about AA, but then again he has freedom of speech. Although I believe AA made the right decision, I am big on rights. I wonder what the ACLU is going to have to say about this....?
KBNA - "To most people, the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home."
 
BMI727
Posts: 11179
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:22 am

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
Although I believe AA made the right decision, I am big on rights.

You have the right to say what you wish. You don't have the right to work for American Airlines.

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
I wonder what the ACLU is going to have to say about this....?

If they're smart, nothing.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5349
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:23 am

AA has known about this guy for a long time, it seems. I am sure that, with a bunch of expensive legal counsel, they lined their ducks up, documented stuff thoroughly, and were well-prepared for the battle before they canned this guy. "Counseling" him a year ago about passenger privacy and other "serious issues" means that they have been preparing to defend their position for a long time, and, apparently, that he stepped in it.

Ultimately, the validity of their position depends on what he said, whether it clearly violated a defensible policy, and whether he was given an opportunity to correct it or discontinue the conduct. Sounds like they waited until they had done enough to protect against the inevitable pushback.

[Edited 2012-03-15 20:25:42]
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:29 am

I wonder what the union for the AA FA's response is to all of this...... I wonder of AA followed the termination process correctly or not.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
renfnl
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:32 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
You have the right to say what you wish. You don't have the right to work for American Airlines.

  
I think sometimes people forget its ALL about selling airline tickets, not your internal issues...that should remain internal. There is real work to be done and you can be a part of it or spend your time making internet videos that undermine it for everyone else

[Edited 2012-03-15 20:44:20]
 
darthluke12694
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:47 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:50 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
You have the right to say what you wish. You don't have the right to work for American Airlines.

Oh I agree with you 100%. It is just the reason AA fired him for. They fired him for exercising his freedom of speech right. (Unless there is some other issue that I/we don't know about). I'm sure if this guy really wanted to, he could drag this out into some long legal process. But in the end, good for AA for firing him.
KBNA - "To most people, the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home."
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 2308
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:50 am

I normally would try to defend someone like this but after reading his site I do believe that he is unprofessional. He's like the Perez Hilton of AA. The etiquette stuff and videos are fine but spreading internal AA gossip and slandering peoples' names is not cool. He deserves to be fired.

[Edited 2012-03-15 20:55:48]
 
User avatar
Moose135
Posts: 2621
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:27 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
Another "free speech" case.

Many people make this same mistaken assumption. It isn't a "freedom of speech" case. In the United States, your constitutionally guaranteed Freedom of Speech only applies to the government restricting what you say. If this F/A worked for the federal government, there might be a freedom of speech issue, but a private company can restrict what you say while under their employment, and you can face penalties - up to and including termination - for making public statements they don't like.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Crew
Posts: 11182
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
Another "free speech" case

Free speech applies to the government, not a private company

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
I wonder what the ACLU is going to have to say about this....?

Probably nothing. AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason. Government can't restrict free speech, private companies can and do.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
BMI727
Posts: 11179
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 7):
They fired him for exercising his freedom of speech right.

When you exercise that right you must live with the consequences. It's like firing an employee for showing up drunk. Drinking isn't illegal, but that doesn't mean that you can do it at work.

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 7):
he could drag this out into some long legal process.

That might not be the best way to use unemployment checks.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason.

Absolutely not true.

They cannot fire all the females, blacks, muslims, etc, just for "any/no reason".
 
darthluke12694
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:47 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting moose135 (Reply 9):
Many people make this same mistaken assumption. It isn't a "freedom of speech" case. In the United States, your constitutionally guaranteed Freedom of Speech only applies to the government restricting what you say. If this F/A worked for the federal government, there might be a freedom of speech issue, but a private company can restrict what you say while under their employment, and you can face penalties - up to and including termination - for making public statements they don't like.

I didn't know that. Thanks! I guess ya'll can just forget everything I said about that....

So here is my question. He said he is going to fight his termination. How is he going to fight it? Is there any way this guy can win?
KBNA - "To most people, the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home."
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13647
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 7):
It is just the reason AA fired him for. They fired him for exercising his freedom of speech right.

No, he was likely terminated for a combination of insubordination (he'd been counseled for this sort of public display before, apparently) and violating the company's code of conduct, which likely has a rule that says something along the lines of "Threatening, intimidating, or discourteous behavior to customers or employees at any time will not be tolerated."

Put another way, freedom of speech doesn't permit you to retain your job if you're using it to publicly talk smack about your employer or be discourteous to a co-worker or customer.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
I wonder what the union for the AA FA's response is to all of this......

I'd imagine they've filed a grievance, as all unions typically do automatically in any sort of loss-of-pay disciplinary action. I'd also imagine they fully understand they have a snowball's chance in hell of getting his job back.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
That might not be the best way to use unemployment checks.

He wouldn't be eligible for unemployment since he was fired.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason.

Absolutely not true.

Yes, they can. That is why most states are "At-Will" States. I am assuming Texas & Florida are At-Will States.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
They cannot fire all the females, blacks, muslims, etc, just for "any/no reason".

This would be a totally different ballgame. Totally different. However, the FA was not fired for any of the examples you listed.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Transpac787
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:04 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
This would be a totally different ballgame. Totally different. However, the FA was not fired for any of the examples you listed.

No, *not* totally different. The statement made was as follows:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason

"Any reason" could be AA deciding they just don't like blacks anymore and are going to fire them all. That would be beyond all sorts of illegal.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
However, the FA was not fired for any of the examples you listed.

Irrelevant. I was disputing the comment made in reply 10, not the reasons for the FA's termination.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13647
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:05 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason.

Absolutely not true.


Yes, they can. That is why most states are "At-Will" States. I am assuming Texas & Florida are At-Will States.

Even in cases of at-will employment, there's a big difference between having "just cause" for termination and "just 'cuz." No large company's HR and/or Legal department will sign off on a termination for arbitrary reasons.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 16):

I think you need to look up the "At-Will" laws for Texas and Florida, as what this thread is all about, or your own state. A company can fire you with or without cause. But they cannot fire you for the basis of sex orientation, nationality, race, disability, etc etc.....

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Even in cases of at-will employment, there's a big difference between having "just cause" for termination and "just 'cuz."

  

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 16):
"Any reason" could be AA deciding they just don't like blacks anymore and are going to fire them all. That would be beyond all sorts of illegal.

It would be very difficult to prove that. You are grasping at straws here.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13647
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting moose135 (Reply 9):
In the United States, your constitutionally guaranteed Freedom of Speech only applies to the government restricting what you say. If this F/A worked for the federal government, there might be a freedom of speech issue

And even then, that's not entirely accurate. The First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law..." in regard to restricting speech.

The government, as an employer, can and does restrict the speech of its employees as a condition of employment.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:19 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
The government, as an employer, can and does restrict the speech of its employees as a condition of employment.

So, even if you work for the Federal Government, you are not protected under the Free Speech laws? This only applies when you are not employed, if I understand you correctly? Just want to make sure.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
User avatar
crj900lr
Posts: 389
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2011 1:44 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
I wonder what the union for the AA FA's response is to all of this...... I wonder of AA followed the termination process correctly or not.

In the end AA has the final say weather he is employed or not, the union does not, the union can support him in his grievience, if one is filed, but AA gets the final word.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13647
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
The government, as an employer, can and does restrict the speech of its employees as a condition of employment.


So, even if you work for the Federal Government, you are not protected under the Free Speech laws? This only applies when you are not employed, if I understand you correctly? Just want to make sure.

The First Amendment states that the government cannot create laws that restrict the speech of its citizens. As being a government employee is a voluntary choice, it's perfectly legal for the government to have the same sort of workplace rules of conduct as a condition of employment that any other employer may have.

For example, my mother-in-law was a senior manager with the U.S. Department of Energy. While employed there, she oversaw many aspects of the department - most recently at the Savannah River National Laboratory - that were confidential in nature. She could not reasonably expect to use the First Amendment as a protection from dismissal if she were discussing confidential government business outside of work.

Similarly, a United States Postal Service employee could not reasonably expect to swear at a customer and use the First Amendment as protection from dismissal.

[Edited 2012-03-15 21:37:36]
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting CRJ900LR (Reply 22):
In the end AA has the final say weather he is employed or not, the union does not, the union can support him in his grievience, if one is filed, but AA gets the final word.

Agreed. I just wanted to know what the union's stance is on this one. My bet is that they probably don't want to touch this with a 15 foot pole considering whats going on with AA in bankruptcy. They probably have bigger fish to fry.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
As being a government employee is a voluntary choice, it's perfectly legal for the government to have the same sort of workplace rules of conduct as a condition of employment that any other employer may have.

Gotcha. That is what I thought. Thanks.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
yvphx
Posts: 97
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:35 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:44 am

Call me wrong, but doesn't the 1st amendment covers free speech up/unto slander, obscene comments? So if in fact he decided he was protected against free speech; slandering your place of work is not covered.

If I was taken into my bosses office and I decided to swear like a mad man, cite untrue statements, and threaten him; I then would not have the 1st amendment covering me.

In most cases, 1st amendment only covers the right of free speech when it comes to the government or government agencies. Last I checked, AA is no (even in bankruptcy) a government entity.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:49 am

Quoting yvphx (Reply 25):
In all cases, 1st amendment only covers the right of free speech when it comes to the government or government agencies. Last I checked, AA is no (even in bankruptcy) a government entity.

There... fixed it for you.  

And you just answered your own question.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
AR385
Posts: 6766
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:53 am

I´m not familiar with labor law in the US. However, free speech or not, just out of common sense, you do not bash publicly the company you work for. If you think you have a real grievance about the way said company is managed, you take it up privately with whoever you think may listen to you. But by doing it publicly, you are causing quantifiable damages to your employer, damages that will certainly affect your fellow employees, who may not share your views. You are going to be fired.
 
flyingcat
Posts: 368
Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:33 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:52 am

Despite all the arguments about free speech the one issue that Mr. David will have a hard time defending is posting travel (date/destination) info on particular board members.


Not only is that a terminable offense it is pushing things into a criminal offense as passenger info is considered secure.


That said posting rumor and executive rumblings should have been anonymous but he was stupid enough to put a face and a name out there. Did he really think there would not be any issue.

Reading many of his posts he seem like the type that is not in it for the money but the experience and now that it is no longer fun he wanted to go out his way.
 
Mcoov
Posts: 141
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:14 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:58 am

Just to clear something up: The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution protects a person's freedom of speech in the court of law, not in the court of business.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:17 am

I'm always torn in these cases.

- If an employee is this unhappy, disgruntled he/she should spend their energy finding another job

- At some point I believe a company has to do something because the employee's focus is on everything except the company's goals and it's a drag on all the employees around him/her

- I absolutely LOVE this guy's efforts at outing the elitist, entitlement mentality of executives, whether they are at AA or anyone else in the US. Executive compensation and perks are out of control... read a proxy recently?
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 5754
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 7):
he could drag this out into some long legal process.

That might not be the best way to use unemployment checks.

LOL! True!  
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
That might not be the best way to use unemployment checks.

He wouldn't be eligible for unemployment since he was fired.

If only that were true. I've fired a number of people who have gotten unemployment. Here in the Seattle area, they bend over backwards to give out the benefits. I had an employee walk out on the job and terminated her (not the first offense). The unemployment officer actually called and asked why we fired her and I pointed out our policy on attendance and conduct in the workplace. He actually asked me incredulously "Why would you have policies on THAT?"

She got unemployment.  

Sometimes, too, they get unemployment because they lost their job through no fault of their own, such as simply not being able to perform the tasks properly.

-Dave
-Dave
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13647
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:00 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 31):
Here in the Seattle area, they bend over backwards to give out the benefits. I had an employee walk out on the job and terminated her (not the first offense). The unemployment officer actually called and asked why we fired her and I pointed out our policy on attendance and conduct in the workplace. He actually asked me incredulously "Why would you have policies on THAT?"

She got unemployment.

Well, being in the Seattle area you know the Washington state laws, particularly leave laws are FAR more relaxed and anti-employer than elsewhere in the nation.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ghifty
Posts: 890
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:12 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:35 am

Quoting yvphx (Reply 25):
Call me wrong, but doesn't the 1st amendment covers free speech up/unto slander, obscene comments? So if in fact he decided he was protected against free speech; slandering your place of work is not covered.

+1. I get tired of all these idiots running around screaming "free speech" (not here, but in real life). People need to realise that "freedom of speech" has limits. Schenck vs. US: "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic [...]." That American judicial ideology remains true today, IF this case shows up in the courts the judges will base their decision off of that.

Quoting yvphx (Reply 25):
In most cases, 1st amendment only covers the right of free speech when it comes to the government or government agencies. Last I checked, AA is no (even in bankruptcy) a government entity.

I assume this depends on what the blogger-guy signed in the contracts. Generally speaking, you have freedom of speech anywhere in the U.S. unless you've willingly given it up (entering a public school, signing a contract, etc.).

All this being said, I don't see what's wrong with the blog? It doesn't seem to be slanderous, or malicious. Just... witty and revealing. New York Times vs. US anybody? Supreme Court decided it'd be unconstitutional under prior restraint doctrine to not allow the NY Times to publish the Pentagon Papers.. the only variable in this AA case is what the contract expressly states regarding speech



[Edited 2012-03-16 00:39:59]
Fly Delta (Wid)Jets
 
bjorn14
Posts: 3553
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:11 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:37 am

Quoting CRJ900LR (Reply 22):
but AA gets the final word.

....or a judge.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):
Well, being in the Seattle area you know the Washington state laws, particularly leave laws are FAR more relaxed and anti-employer than elsewhere in the nation.

Usually, unless you are criminally prosecuted for an act at work you will get unemployment. I've seen some of the most worthless POSs get unemployment for 'performance' issues.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
PHX787
Posts: 7881
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:44 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
The First Amendment states that the government cannot create laws that restrict the speech of its citizens.

Exactly. Nowhere does it say that an Airline can't terminate an employee for complaining about the company.

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 30):
- If an employee is this unhappy, disgruntled he/she should spend their energy finding another job

      I'm tired of hearing about these people complaining about their jobs in the first place. Remember that B6 FA who jumped down the escape slide at JFK a few years ago?

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 30):
- I absolutely LOVE this guy's efforts at outing the elitist, entitlement mentality of executives, whether they are at AA or anyone else in the US. Executive compensation and perks are out of control... read a proxy recently?


-_- somewhat of an article bias, IMO

Either way this particular FA should find a different career path, if you ask me.
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
FlyingAY
Posts: 408
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:26 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:21 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 31):

If only that were true. I've fired a number of people who have gotten unemployment.

In what kind of cases you're supposed to get the unemployment benefit over there?? Here you will not get unemployement benefit if you leave the job yourself, but if you are fired and are not leaving your job voluntarily you will get the benefit.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13647
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:22 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 34):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 32):Well, being in the Seattle area you know the Washington state laws, particularly leave laws are FAR more relaxed and anti-employer than elsewhere in the nation.
Usually, unless you are criminally prosecuted for an act at work you will get unemployment. I've seen some of the most worthless POSs get unemployment for 'performance' issues.

I guess it just depends on the state, but here in AZ I've represented my company before many labor judges and have only had one uphold the awarding of unemployment for someone terminated for cause; all others were denied.

Quoting flyingAY (Reply 36):
In what kind of cases you're supposed to get the unemployment benefit over there?? Here you will not get unemployement benefit if you leave the job yourself, but if you are fired and are not leaving your job voluntarily you will get the benefit.

Most unemployment recipients are people who were impacted by RIFs (reductions in force) where the discharge was not performance-related. Generally speaking, if you're terminated for cause (performance issues, insubordination, etc) you cannot receive unemployment.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:56 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 27):
I´m not familiar with labor law in the US. However, free speech or not, just out of common sense, you do not bash publicly the company you work for. If you think you have a real grievance about the way said company is managed, you take it up privately with whoever you think may listen to you. But by doing it publicly, you are causing quantifiable damages to your employer, damages that will certainly affect your fellow employees, who may not share your views. You are going to be fired.

     

I would be surprised if there were many co-workers at AA who would not agree with the above as well. Sure we all get peeved by our bosses every now and again but to go public and not expect any action is at best naive on the part of the individual.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
Probably nothing. AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason. Government can't restrict free speech, private companies can and do.

Not quite. Flights attendants are bargaining employees covered under the RLA and can't be fired without violating something and that has to be proven in a hearing. The hearing will most likely result in a termination, which is be grieved and heard by an arbitrator. The arbitrator will either uphold the termination or order reinstatement. I've seen more than once where the airline REALLY didn't want the employee back and wrote a check to keep him away.

Quoting CRJ900LR (Reply 21):
In the end AA has the final say weather he is employed or not, the union does not, the union can support him in his grievience, if one is filed, but AA gets the final word.

Under ALPA bylaws (I realize we're dealing with a different union here) termination grievances will always be filed. They don't always go to arbitration, but the grievance gets filed.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
Agreed. I just wanted to know what the union's stance is on this one. My bet is that they probably don't want to touch this with a 15 foot pole considering whats going on with AA in bankruptcy. They probably have bigger fish to fry.

They will have to represent him or face the possibility of a DFR suit. That being said, such representation could include "You really dicked this up. You're not going to be coming back, let's see if they'll let you resign and do 50 push ups in lieu of the termination". That happens quite frequently.
 
hamad
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 6:29 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:00 pm

Seriously! when people do those things posting against their employers! If you are not that happy, please do your self a favor and find another job. Some of his videos are funny, I admit, however, did he really have to mention the name of the airline? He could have done it in a generic way, like a joke about airlines in general.

Lately he started mentioning American Airlines clearly, and making fun of them. We tend to forget that people are watching! Companies hire people who have a job of only sitting on the computer and watch what other people, especially their employees when they post things online.

I am a flight attendant, and I wouldn't say that "Oh wow, i am so crazy about my job.... bla bla bla", but I do understand that when I got employed, I signed a contract. The contract has something about bashing and mispresenting my employer. After all, this is what brings bread to my home!

I seriously couldn't be bothered with the politics that takes place at the company, whatever they are. All I care about is signing in for my flight, doing my job, and coming back home and forgetting about work, until my next flight!

Personally one thing I always remember: I have struggled so hard to get where I am, a lot of people dream to be where i stand today, and I wouldn't spoil that with some nonsesne videos.

[Edited 2012-03-16 06:21:33]
PHX - i miss spotting
 
ALTF4
Posts: 1157
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:01 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:11 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 9):
Many people make this same mistaken assumption. It isn't a "freedom of speech" case. In the United States, your constitutionally guaranteed Freedom of Speech only applies to the government restricting what you say. If this F/A worked for the federal government, there might be a freedom of speech issue, but a private company can restrict what you say while under their employment, and you can face penalties - up to and including termination - for making public statements they don't like.

Finally, somebody else understands what freedom of speech means.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
RyanairGuru
Posts: 6554
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:19 pm

Quoting hamad (Reply 39):
Not that I agree with everything, however when we get employed, we have a contract, and the contract clearly states that posting things against the airline lead to immediate termination

I don't work in aviation, but I have the exactly the same clause in my employment contract: if I bring the company brand into disrepute then I'm shown the door.

Further (and additional to the contract) we have all been informed multiple times to watch what we post online (and social networking sights in particular) since any negative comment against the company would count as breaching that condition since the information is then in the public domain.

Honestly, if I were fired then it would be totally my fault! It's not like I wasn't warned.... (I bitch about my employer in private to friends and family, but who doesn't? There is, however, a million miles between a quiet cup of coffee and posting slanderous material for the whole world to see)
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
aztrainer
Posts: 713
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:17 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 1:57 pm

People misconstrue what they think their freedom of speech is and what it actually implies. You cannot go into a store and yell "fire" as part of your freedom of speech, because it puts others in harms way. You can say what you want as long as you do not slander, defame, demean, others or give intellectual properties to others.

AZ is a "right-to-work" state and you can be terminated for any reason as long as there has been due process. When AA called him in to "counsel" him on his conduct and change what he was doing they also put him on notice. He did not adhere to AA's objections and continue to conduct himself in a manner that AA deemed inappropriate and terminated his employment.

Simple way to think of this is that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" .
 
sankaps
Posts: 1692
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2008 6:51 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
Not quite. Flights attendants are bargaining employees covered under the RLA and can't be fired without violating something and that has to be proven in a hearing. The hearing will most likely result in a termination, which is be grieved and heard by an arbitrator. The arbitrator will either uphold the termination or order reinstatement. I've seen more than once where the airline REALLY didn't want the employee back and wrote a check to keep him away.

And herein lies the problem with the US airline industry. Where unions will defend what common sense says is not defendible (and what they themselves know is not defendible), thereby wasting time, raising costs, and helping contribute to continually declining service standards.
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 43):
And herein lies the problem with the US airline industry. Where unions will defend what common sense says is not defendible (and what they themselves know is not defendible), thereby wasting time, raising costs, and helping contribute to continually declining service standards.

I understand your sentiment

I think the theory of it is to protect employees over safety issues. I remember delaying a flight because the flight attendant found a fire extinguisher with the pin pulled out of it. The bottle was charged but not airworthy due to the pin. We took a delay over it while maintenance found us another one. It is quite conceivable that without some sort of protection the company could take action against us for delaying a flight over something like this. Company standpoint being "it was safe, the bottle was charged, you could have put out a fire with it...". It just wasn't legal. If we had flown with it, the company could have self disclosed, and we as a crew would have been fined along with the company and any possible certificate action that went along with it. The crew almost always pays a much higher price than the company when the Feds get involved and the company will throw you under the bus in a heartbeat when it happens.

Unions have no choice but to defend even the guilty / bad apples per federal law. It's called duty of fair representation. I was privy to one hearing / arbitration thinking to myself the whole time "this guy needs to go". Problem is if we don't fairly represent the guy and make our best efforts at providing the most positive outcome for this guy he can sue us personally. Can't blame the unions for that, it comes from the federal gov't.
 
hrc773
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:35 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 29):
Quoting gaystudpilot (Reply 29):
- If an employee is this unhappy, disgruntled he/she should spend their energy finding another job

That's exactly what I did.
I started working for an airline back when it was fun and they treated their employees like if they really cared for them. After 9/11, all that changed and I realized that airlines are just like any other company that is out there to make money; even if it is at the expense of the employees. So, I got out! I was not going to sit in my jumpseat and cry about it day in and day out for the rest of my working life. The airline lost me; that was my "revenge". And that was a big loss, I was really good at what I did because I enjoyed it. It was their big loss.
 
User avatar
135mech
Posts: 410
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:56 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:33 pm

WOW... I love all of the comments on this! It's truly sad that people can and will slander those they work for and yet fail to accept the consequences of their actions.

If you are so unhappy, then QUIT and find another job; if you give your 2 weeks and look for another job, then you might get one. HOWEVER, if you make such a strong appearance publicly and then get canned for it... NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WILL HIRE YOU AFTERWARDS!

What one said earlier (it IS about making money) is completely the truth, if Airlines didn't make money they wouldn't exist. Yes, they need to care about passengers and employees, but the bottom line is INCOME! This F/A decided to voice ALL of his opinions in such a malicious manner, that AA had no choice but to fire him as it was/is insubordinate to disgrace your employers as he did! His attitude was/is cancerous to those around him and it spreads like a disease. If you are unhappy, then quit!

Kudos to AA, people like him destroy morale with in the surrounding employees and give little to no hope for rebound!
135Mech
 
thrufru
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:48 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting CRJ900LR (Reply 21):
In the end AA has the final say weather he is employed or not, the union does not, the union can support him in his grievience, if one is filed, but AA gets the final word.

Actually, under the Railway Labor Act which governs Union/Management relations and most CBA's, the final word would actually be from the a mediator.
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1621
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
I wonder what the union for the AA FA's response is to all of this...... I wonder of AA followed the termination process correctly or not.

Before the termination, the union had already passed a resolution in support of the flight attendant, including legal representation. As for whether or not AA followed proper procedures is anyone's guess. If history has anything to say, they didn't, which is how many people who've been terminated, whether with good reason or not, get their jobs back.

Quoting CRJ900LR (Reply 21):
In the end AA has the final say weather he is employed or not, the union does not, the union can support him in his grievience, if one is filed, but AA gets the final word.

As written in the reply below, the company does not have the final say. An independent arbitrator does.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
Not quite. Flights attendants are bargaining employees covered under the RLA and can't be fired without violating something and that has to be proven in a hearing. The hearing will most likely result in a termination, which is be grieved and heard by an arbitrator. The arbitrator will either uphold the termination or order reinstatement. I've seen more than once where the airline REALLY didn't want the employee back and wrote a check to keep him away.

  

Quoting sankaps (Reply 43):
And herein lies the problem with the US airline industry. Where unions will defend what common sense says is not defendible (and what they themselves know is not defendible), thereby wasting time, raising costs, and helping contribute to continually declining service standards.

Not really. Remember bargaining agreements are not one sided. The company agreed to the contract as well, including the clause regarding terminations, grievances, and reinstatements.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
QualityDr
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:57 am

RE: AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant

Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
"Fighting his termination"? He seemed like he couldn't wait to leave.

I'm sure he's fighting it merely to make a point, which will then lead to financial settlement outside of a courtroom. If American has a case, they'll fight on. If not, they'll fold the hand quietly. But I seriously doubt if he goes back to work for AA in any capacity, even should he win...
All you need in this life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure. -- Mark Twain

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ltbewr and 22 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos