vegetables2001
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Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:09 pm

Got to word this carefully - bear with me...

Clearly someone who molests children is one of the worst sort of criminal, however, if a paedophile is what I assume it is - someone being born sexually attracted to children - is there any evidence that there people out there who are attracted to children but do not act on these urges and are effectively celibate all their life? Paedophillia being what it is I assume if you were sexually attracted to children you would keep it very quiet indeed.

Has there been any sort of studies?
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rlwynn
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:20 pm

I am sure there are many people who have had thoughts but have never acted on them. I am also sure that there are many people who have pictures or videos of children but have never acted on whatever it is that turns them on.

But to answer your question. The only good pedo is a dead one.
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aloges
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:05 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 1):
The only good pedo is a dead one.

Even if they never live it out?
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9MMPQ
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:56 pm

Pedophilia & pedophiles can never be anything else then an extremely bad thing. The very idea of viewing children in a sexual way is wrong. People who do not act on such feelings aren't much better then those who do.

I frankly doubt there are many people out there who have such steady feelings & don't act on them. Every case which seems to turn up involves people who already have had some kind of psychological issue which eventually leads them to acting out. I'd imagine those not yet acting on it are more then likely to give into it eventually.

I get you're looking for research data but your choice for a thread title is very poor to say the least.

Quoting aloges (Reply 2):
Even if they never live it out?

Absolutely, we have some crazies who apparently have never lived it out either yet are talking about the benefits all would gain from a sexual relationship. A dangerous inspiration to others closer to that edge. Acting on it or not you'd better believe i would keep such people well away from my child.
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aloges
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Acting on it or not you'd better believe i would keep such people well away from my child.

Yes, of course, but you wouldn't want them dead, would you? If they can't help thinking of the crime, but do not commit it, there's nothing to sentence them for.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Pedophilia & pedophiles can never be anything else then an extremely bad thing. The very idea of viewing children in a sexual way is wrong. People who do not act on such feelings aren't much better then those who do.

That is wrong on its face. Everyone is capable of terrible things and many, many people fantasize about doing terrible things but the vast majority of people who have those thoughts do not do those things. And those people are without any doubt "better" than those who do.

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
I frankly doubt there are many people out there who have such steady feelings & don't act on them.

Ever seen anime? Millions of people, primarily men very much see it, read it, enjoy it and a lot of it has elements that sexualizes young prepubescent & pubescent girls .

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Every case which seems to turn up involves people who already have had some kind of psychological issue which eventually leads them to acting out. I'd imagine those not yet acting on it are more then likely to give into it eventually.

One does not mean the other. That one has acted out on their thoughts does not mean that those that have had those thoughts will too. I do understand that it does make someone "more likely" to be able to something but again it doesn't necessarily mean they will.

What have you thought of doing, fantasized doing that you didn't do? Some people dream of killing the people they work with but most people don't do it. With all the school rage/killing stuff going on here I can only look back and think of the times that I planned to extract my revenge on some of the kids that were very mean to me in school. I did not however do so. I knew better. Doesn't mean I didn't really want to do bad things to them.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-03-23 16:43:37]
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:38 am

I have often pondered this question. The reason I think about it a lot is because as a society, we don't seem to be able to address the issue very well, and our vulnerable children suffer for it. As a parent it horrifies me. There must be a better way.

My opinion is that pedophilia is a sexuality, so like hetrosexuality or homosexuality it is not a choice. This makes sense, (why on earth would anyone choose to become something so reviled?).

However, once a pedophile understands their situation, they then have an awareness. Acting out on their sexuality has a far more extreme negative effect on their victim than the positive effect of satisfying their sexual urge. So therefore they must make a choice. Are they selfish and act on it anyway, or rise above it and choose the life of celibacy?

With this in mind, (keeping in mind my view on pedophilia being a sexuality), then I think the celibate pedophile IS good. Should perhaps even be publically acknowledged for their stance.

We could then ask ourselves as a society, how can we then "convert" more pedophiles from "active" to "celibate", (or better yet, catch them before they even make the choice). Can we implement a strategy that positively enforces passive/celibate pedophile behaviour? With willing participants and a supportive society, I believe it is possible.
 
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:37 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 6):

Great post, and 100% agree. Human sexuality, particularly in this department is a really tough subject that understandably very few want to talk about, I commend the OP's bravery in starting the thread.
 
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9MMPQ
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:25 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Everyone is capable of terrible things and many, many people fantasize about doing terrible things but the vast majority of people who have those thoughts do not do those things.

I'm certainly not denying we're all capable of thinking & doing terrible things but for most of us those are passing thoughts. See it as a way to blow off steam, vent some anger & eventually be done with it. Then again some people are so overtaken by their anger and/or frustrations that eventually it becomes all they are dealing with, resulting in examples you've given. To me that is what this about, not just the intermittent idea but having that in your mind every time something with sexuality comes up.

A pedophile has that sexually fixed obsession. Men & women do not enter into their minds whenever sexuality comes up, children are the focus. I'd imagine living with those constant feelings & ideas would result eventually in acting out.

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Ever seen anime? Millions of people, primarily men very much see it, read it, enjoy it and a lot of it has elements that sexualizes young prepubescent & pubescent girls .

Doesn't do it for me but i've seen examples. I would then wonder if a similar fixation applies, hence my use of the words steady feelings in my post 3, perhaps i should have said constant or the only feelings. Would anime be the only thing that gets them going sexually & would that translate to their real world feelings to children only or is watching it just that & in the real world they would have normal adult sexual relationships ? That might well be an interesting query for the OP.
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vegetables2001
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:30 am

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Pedophilia & pedophiles can never be anything else then an extremely bad thing. The very idea of viewing children in a sexual way is wrong. People who do not act on such feelings aren't much better then those who do.

Of course paedophillia is wrong, however, I think you may be being a little harsh about people who don't act on it, surely if your hot-wired to your sexuality it's not something you have active control over, it must be a right ball-ache. I doubt whether there would be many homosexuals in the world if you could choose who you find sexually attractive.
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TransIsland
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:08 pm

I am going to stay away from the good/bad thing, and shan't comment on all the judgmental statements made above. To answer your question:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Thread starter):
is there any evidence that there people out there who are attracted to children but do not act on these urges and are effectively celibate all their life?

Yes, there are, as has been documented in a number of articles in scholarly, peer-reviewed journal. Current research suggests that reaching out to such persons before they become child molesters may in fact be the only effective way to prevent CSA, as educational approaches have had minimal impact only, and Sex Offenders Registers, by nature, register sex offenders after they've offended. A pilot project was started in Berlin, Germany (IIRC), reaching out to and trying to help people who have certain desires but would rather not act on them.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:30 pm

Ok, here's an even more extreme curve ball

What if we were to develop a victimless way for Pedos to act out on their desires. Some kind of simulated virtual reality technology or something?

I don't know how the psychology works, but if evidence would indicate that this would reduce the incidence of assaulting actual children I would think its worth a go
 
vegetables2001
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 11):
What if we were to develop a victimless way for Pedos to act out on their desires. Some kind of simulated virtual reality technology or something?

I, personally, would have no problems with this at all, providing no children were actually involved in any way.

The argument against would be that by doing so they would not be trying to 'cure' themselves.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Pedophilia & pedophiles can never be anything else then an extremely bad thing. The very idea of viewing children in a sexual way is wrong. People who do not act on such feelings aren't much better then those who do.

I don't really agree with making a value judgement about people's feelings if they don't act on them. We barely understand the source of people's feelings and/or ability to control whether and when they occur. The interjection of reason to control impulse is the real triumph.

I imagine I'd be held in low esteem for some of the urges that I have had to suppress. Not pedophilia, but definitely murder and a hundred kinds of revenge.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 11):
Ok, here's an even more extreme curve ball

What if we were to develop a victimless way for Pedos to act out on their desires. Some kind of simulated virtual reality technology or something?

I don't know how the psychology works, but if evidence would indicate that this would reduce the incidence of assaulting actual children I would think its worth a go

I think the logic behind opposing this would be that - to the contrary - acting virtually on feelings would desensitize people to the difference between fantasy and reality. Same as how violence on TV/video games or pornography are claimed to promote bad 'real' behavior. I don't know if that theory is valid or not!
 
vegetables2001
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 10):
A pilot project was started in Berlin, Germany (IIRC), reaching out to and trying to help people who have certain desires but would rather not act on them.

Sounds an eminently sensible idea to me.

However, if schemes like this was started it the UK I shudder to think what the papers would make of it......

The Mirror:

"GOVERNMENT GIVES TAX PAYERS MONEY TO PERVES"

:Shudder.:
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 6):
My opinion is that pedophilia is a sexuality, so like hetrosexuality or homosexuality it is not a choice. This makes sense, (why on earth would anyone choose to become something so reviled?).

People not too long ago (and some today) thought the same about homosexuality, as society has mostly come to terms with same sex partnerships will we in the future be more accepting of other sexual proclivities?

On the other hand if anyone so much as touched one of my kids I'd have them killed.

[Edited 2012-03-24 08:50:12]
 
Rara
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:12 pm

I recall reading that the vast majority of paedophiles never acts out their desires, i.e. never touches a kid or gets access to child pornography etc.

Also, 90% of paedophiles who are released from prison never become deliquent again. Needless to say the media never ever reports on these people. Only if they be reoffend, there's a huge outcry ("scandalous that this pig was released", "lock them up and throw away the key" etc.)

The number of people who have sexual thoughts about children is actually astounding, according to studies about it (which are hard to do because nobody would like to admit that). Let's just say this world would be a very dangerous place for children if every adult paedophile were to follow their sex drives. Also, we'd need a LOT more prisons if we were to lock up everyone who has these kinds of thoughts.

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 1):

But to answer your question. The only good pedo is a dead one.

If I made the laws, this kind of hate speech would be a punishable act.
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vegetables2001
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
If I made the laws, this kind of hate speech would be a punishable act.

Can't say I agreed with what the guy said but I find this idea people should be punished for saying unpleasant things creepy in the extremis - how would you punish him fine? jail? re-education?
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
People not too long ago (and some today) thought the same about homosexuality, as society has mostly come to terms with same sex partnerships will we in the future be more accepting of other sexual proclivities?

I think there should be only one law about sex: "any sexual activity is permitted, as long as it's between consenting adults, and as long as no third party is hurt".

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 6):

I absolutely agree with your post. The problem I see is that pedophilia is such a taboo in our society that nobody dares to talk about it, without finishing the same sentence with "... and I'd kill those bastards". Trying to do any kind of information or "support" through the media would be a complete disaster.
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Rara
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 17):

Can't say I agreed with what the guy said but I find this idea people should be punished for saying unpleasant things creepy in the extremis - how would you punish him fine? jail? re-education?

With a fine, I guess. Are you from the UK? The UK has hate speech laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_the_United_Kingdom

The thing is that hate speech isn't just "unpleasant", as you say. If people say "person XY isn't human, kill him" for long enough, somebody will be killed. In this context, it doesn't matter whether XY pertains to race, religion, sexual orientation, or whatever. Paedophiles are humans too - the law has to protect society from them, yes - but if it has to protect them from society, then so be it.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 18):

I think there should be only one law about sex: "any sexual activity is permitted, as long as it's between consenting adults, and as long as no third party is hurt".

What about incest?  
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vegetables2001
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 19):
Are you from the UK? The UK has hate speech laws.

Just another example of unnecessary, unworkable, unenforceable laws that are regularly placed on the statute books in the UK - usually so politicians can curry favour with a particular newspaper or minority group. A day never goes by in my place of work without hearing racist, sexist, homophobic remarks.

Passing laws simply doesn't alter peoples thought processes
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Rara
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 20):
A day never goes by in my place of work without hearing racist, sexist, homophobic remarks.

No, in mine neither. People are people and the world isn't perfect. Still, if somebody at work said "I hate all Jews and I think we should kill them all" in all seriousness, I wouldn't just let it pass.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 20):

Passing laws simply doesn't alter peoples thought processes

... and it well shouldn't. Yet, I think a civilized society can agree on certain minimum standards, "don't kill anyone" being one of them, "don't incite hatred" being another. Freedom is invaluable, but freedom ends where somebody else's freedom is compromised.

If an enemy of yours took to the streets chanting "kill vegetables2001", you'd want to be able to shut him up, wouldn't you?
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vegetables2001
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:22 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 21):
If an enemy of yours took to the streets chanting "kill vegetables2001", you'd want to be able to shut him up, wouldn't you?

I could see it would get very wearing after a little! However, a direct incitement to murder is different to:

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 1):
The only good pedo is a dead one.

which is the statement we're discussing.
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ltbewr
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:24 am

As part of discovery disclosures in the current civil and criminal investigations and criminal tiral prep of former Penn State University assistant Football Coach Jerry Sandusky, a report done in 1998 by a doctor expressed with a concern that he was a pedophile. This article from ESPN gives some details:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/...dusky-called-likely-pedophile-1998

In the past when people lived in small communities and neighborhoods, there was considerable pressure and a lack of privacy to get away with sexually assaulting children. Kids were told to 'stay away' from that 'odd neighbor' based on rumors. Some many not/do not act due to religious upbringing, social and family pressures as well as getting caught and financial ruin. Even to the present, some powerful people like Catholic priests or a sports coach like Sandusky, could and can put the fear of God into a child they molested if they rat them out. Also in the past it was not suitable to discuss sexual issues in general and especially about sexual assault. As we moved into larger communities, privacy became more important, then more could act on their impulses and did. They could go to an area no one knew them and find victims. Some may seek adult men or women prostitutes who are physically similar to children in size and body development for sexual pleasure that simulates being with a child or go to places in the world (like in Southeast Asia) where it easy to get children for sex. Of course, porn involving children or young adults that look like children is easily available on line or through pedophile networks.

Some would, to paraphrase, say that the only good Pedophile is a dead one. But if one does refrain from and does not do any sexual assault, then while they are not 'good' then at least they are controlling their impulses. It is also important to wonder if something in the persons' DNA, or ancestors may have a biological factor that leads them to seek sex with children.
 
seb146
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting vegetables2001 (Thread starter):
Has there been any sort of studies?

I think people would be afraid to participate in that kind of study. Who would answer honestly a question like "have you ever found a 14 year old girl/boy attractive?"

I worry for us gays. We put so much emphasis on youth. Some gays get really extreme about it, acting out fantasies on 18 and 19 year olds that look 14 and 15. It makes me sick. Nothing wrong with wanting to stay firm and young, but to go that far is too far, IMHO.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 23):
It is also important to wonder if something in the persons' DNA, or ancestors may have a biological factor that leads them to seek sex with children.

That is an interesting theory. It could be an older man/younger girl scenario would, at the most basic level, be survival. The sooner a woman can begin bearing children, the better survival of the species. As far as man on boy, maybe a teaching instinct?
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:55 am

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Pedophilia & pedophiles can never be anything else then an extremely bad thing. The very idea of viewing children in a sexual way is wrong. People who do not act on such feelings aren't much better then those who do.

I frankly doubt there are many people out there who have such steady feelings & don't act on them. Every case which seems to turn up involves people who already have had some kind of psychological issue which eventually leads them to acting out. I'd imagine those not yet acting on it are more then likely to give into it eventually.

I disagree. It is the essence of civilization to control your urges. We are human beings with passions. We get angry, aroused, upset etc. by things we see around us. The defining trait of a civilized person is that while he may feel like jumping on a pretty woman in a tight outfit or throttling some guy who is rude to you in a Starbucks line, he controls his urges without much difficulty.
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Mir
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:07 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
People not too long ago (and some today) thought the same about homosexuality, as society has mostly come to terms with same sex partnerships will we in the future be more accepting of other sexual proclivities?

I don't think we'll ever be accepting of sex with children, for obvious reasons - it's not between consenting adults, which puts it in an entirely different category from homosexuality. That said, if some people have thoughts of paedophilia but don't act on them, that's fine by me. We all have occasional urges to do things that we know are wrong (if you say you don't then you're lying), but that alone doesn't make us bad people. In fact, it is the fact that we don't give in to those urges that makes us good people.

Quoting Rara (Reply 19):
Quoting ManuCH (Reply 18):

I think there should be only one law about sex: "any sexual activity is permitted, as long as it's between consenting adults, and as long as no third party is hurt".

What about incest?

I'd say no, on the grounds that it's bad for the child that might result.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
I think people would be afraid to participate in that kind of study. Who would answer honestly a question like "have you ever found a 14 year old girl/boy attractive?"

As long as the process and the results were kept anonymous, that shouldn't pose too much of a problem. And there are plenty of ways to do that.

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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:16 am

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 1):
The only good pedo is a dead one.

That would be a real problem for me.

I started to become sexually active when I was twelve although I'd fooled around with other boys at school before that - simple dick-diddling.

But I branched out, away from school and preferred to be in the company of young men older than I was - twenty or so, early twenties. And some of them liked me and treated me well. We became friends and in a few cases, occasionally, it led to sex, usually at my provocation.

No matter how young I was, I was always the seducer, not the seduced. No one ever did anything to me/with me that I did not want to happen. I don't believe it did me any harm, I don't regret one instance of it and I'm still grateful to them because it was a considerable learning experience for me.

I think there have to be laws about it because I recognize that not all children are as self reliant as I was and there are certainly those, too many, who will take violent advantage of children. But somehow I'd like to think those laws could somehow accommodate my experience.

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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:57 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
But somehow I'd like to think those laws could somehow accommodate my experience.

Everyone will likely respond "those older men you were with were wrong and should not have done anything with you. They are the adults and therefore they must be the ones in control and therefore at fault.

I understand what you are saying and sharing and agree with what you are trying to say but the lines are there and anyone that crosses them for whatever reasons is at severe risk. No one can ever really support any pedophilia or pedophiles (those that have acted) and expect to be respected or be considered reasonable.

Actually I am surprised, pleasantly so, that this thread has kept a good open form without the mindless ranting that usually occurs.

Tugg
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seb146
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:37 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 28):
"those older men you were with were wrong and should not have done anything with you. They are the adults and therefore they must be the ones in control and therefore at fault.

What about boys who are told that sort of thing is wrong but they (the boys) encourage it? There are boys who do want the attention of adults in that way. They know the law but still try to gain acceptance from an adult. What then? I remember when I was in junior high or high school and a 30-something year old sub would teach us for the day. Even when I was a junior and senior in high school, I had a crush on my algebra teacher. (Same man, two years, two different levels) I never did anything, but what if I had made the first move?

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
As long as the process and the results were kept anonymous, that shouldn't pose too much of a problem. And there are plenty of ways to do that.

Even if the person is skeptical? I don't believe for a second that what my doctor writes in the chart is confidential.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:28 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
I started to become sexually active when I was twelve

It isn't paedophillia at the age of 12, It stops (In my opinion) being paedophilla when the child starts to have sexual desires themselves. The desire for young post-pubescent adults is called something else - Ephoebophillia - I think.

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
No matter how young I was, I was always the seducer, not the seduced.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
but what if I had made the first move?

Sorry, even though I wouldn't neccessarily call them paedophiles, any adult who has sex with 12 years old - no matter who instigates it - is utterly beneath contempt. I mean, please, how low must your self image and sexual adequacy be if you have to seek out and take advantage of people with such limited experience.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:33 am

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 30):
It isn't paedophillia at the age of 12, It stops (In my opinion) being paedophilla when the child starts to have sexual desires themselves. The desire for young post-pubescent adults is called something else - Ephoebophillia - I think.

Some dictionaries agree with you. The law and much of society does not. 78% of the victims of the so-called "Pedophile Priests" in the US were between ages 11 to 17 (and 81% were male).

I was at a Catholic school and no priest ever touched me, perhaps because I was "aware." I had the power.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 30):
I mean, please, how low must your self image and sexual adequacy be if you have to seek out and take advantage of people with such limited experience.

I won't get into an argy-barge about things you consider beneath contempt but let me just make the point again - they didn't seek, they didn't take advantage. I did.

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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:53 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Even if the person is skeptical? I don't believe for a second that what my doctor writes in the chart is confidential.

Exactly. I'd only trust a survey to be anonymous if it was organized by myself. Everything else can't be trusted 100%. How can I be sure that they won't record my IP? With that and a subpoena, I'm already out of luck.

Quoting Rara (Reply 19):
What about incest?
Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
I'd say no, on the grounds that it's bad for the child that might result.

Exactly. Sticking to my earlier definition, incest that can lead to a child (that is, heterosexual incest) should be illegal because it may hurt the resulting child. But homosexual incest should be allowed.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 30):
how low must your self image and sexual adequacy be if you have to seek out and take advantage of people with such limited experience.

And, in my case, those thoughts never left my head; I never acted on them. But, consider this: even taking into account it is wrong, maybe I, as a 17 year old, wanted to gain experience? You remember how much your peer group was talking about sex then. Finding someone to trust, especially being gay in such an ultra-conservative town, is impossible. I don't think my algebra teacher swang (swung?) that way, so it is a moot point, anyway.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 3):
Pedophilia & pedophiles can never be anything else then an extremely bad thing. The very idea of viewing children in a sexual way is wrong.

Absolutely right. Paedophiles who "molest" children or watch children being misused cannot be tolerated. Paedophiles are murderes of human souls, of souls that need to be protected more than anyone else. I dont have kids, but I love them, and for me pedos are the lowest form of human creature. Zero tolerance is the only choice.
 
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 30):
It isn't paedophilia at the age of 12

Some definitions disagree with you.

Quote:
As a medical diagnosis, pedophilia, or paedophilia, is defined as a psychiatric disorder in adults or late adolescents (persons age 16 or older) typically characterized by a primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children (generally age 13 years or younger, though onset of puberty may vary). The prepubescent child must be at least five years younger than the adolescent before the attraction can be diagnosed as pedophilia.
Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 30):
Sorry, even though I wouldn't neccessarily call them paedophiles, any adult who has sex with 12 years old - no matter who instigates it - is utterly beneath contempt. I mean, please, how low must your self image and sexual adequacy be if you have to seek out and take advantage of people with such limited experience.

What I would be concerned about is that if the poster thought it was ok when he was 12 being molested by older men, would he think it would be an issue with him as an older male having sex with a 12 year old? Sorry but after what you have admitted I wouldn't want you anywhere near young children, I apologise if what I said offends you but you don't appear to believe you were abused (IMO you were, no matter what you think) and that very fact worries me.
 
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
That is an interesting theory. It could be an older man/younger girl scenario would, at the most basic level, be survival. The sooner a woman can begin bearing children, the better survival of the species.

True, but that's not paedophilia in its truest sense, I think. The existence of an "adolescent age", where people are already sexual beings but need protection from "real" adults is a cultural construction that may be rather new. Any attraction to children who are younger than that is paedophilia and is a "strange" phenomenon in that it can't really be explained from an evolutionary point of view.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):

I disagree. It is the essence of civilization to control your urges. We are human beings with passions. We get angry, aroused, upset etc. by things we see around us. The defining trait of a civilized person is that while he may feel like jumping on a pretty woman in a tight outfit or throttling some guy who is rude to you in a Starbucks line, he controls his urges without much difficulty.

Exactly.

Quoting tugger (Reply 28):

Actually I am surprised, pleasantly so, that this thread has kept a good open form without the mindless ranting that usually occurs.

I agree, it's a good thread.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 32):
Exactly. Sticking to my earlier definition, incest that can lead to a child (that is, heterosexual incest) should be illegal because it may hurt the resulting child. But homosexual incest should be allowed.

OK, in that way it fits your definition. However, there are surefire ways to prevent a pregnancy, say by sterilization etc. Does that move incest back into the realm of the acceptable, in your view?

I'm undecided on that, it's a tough issue.

Quoting na (Reply 34):

Absolutely right. Paedophiles who "molest" children or watch children being misused cannot be tolerated. Paedophiles are murderes of human souls, of souls that need to be protected more than anyone else. I dont have kids, but I love them, and for me pedos are the lowest form of human creature. Zero tolerance is the only choice.

I think nobody here doubts that - but this thread is particularly about those people who don't do either of what you said. Those who neither molest children nor watch it. Can/should they still be condemned.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 36):
I think nobody here doubts that - but this thread is particularly about those people who don't do either of what you said. Those who neither molest children nor watch it. Can/should they still be condemned.

No, rather commended for self-control of their baser instincts.

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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 32):
But homosexual incest should be allowed.

Wow just wow, very surprised buy this, so it's ok for dad to have sex with his son but not with his daughter? In either case its morally wrong.

Just out of curiosity would you think it's ok for a mother to sleep with her son, or is it only appropriate for mums to sleep with their daughters?
 
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
What I would be concerned about is that if the poster thought it was ok when he was 12 being molested by older men, would he think it would be an issue with him as an older male having sex with a 12 year old?

I wouldn't think this is an issue - if a 12 year old seeks for sex with a 20 year old, that 12 year old is obviously attracted by older men. When he's older himself, he won't be attracted to younger men (especially not pubescent kids). These are 2 completely different things. Also, when you're 12 you don't really care about the law - you're a kid and you do what's supposed to be fun. When you're older, you usually become a law abiding citizen, and start having stronger morals. At least that's what I think.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
Sorry but after what you have admitted I wouldn't want you anywhere near young children, I apologise if what I said offends you but you don't appear to believe you were abused (IMO you were, no matter what you think) and that very fact worries me.

Whoa, easy there, I think that's a bit of a quick conclusion you're jumping to. If he was the one who got the initiative and approached the 20 year old, he was only "abused" as far as the law is concerned. Maybe it was somehow morally wrong. But he was not abused if he says he wasn't. The reason why the law forbids these kinds of sexual relationships is because not every 12 year old will be the one taking the initiative, but they will more often be the victims. And you can't really trust an abused 12 year old to tell the truth in front of a court when confronted with the alleged rapist.

Quoting Rara (Reply 36):
OK, in that way it fits your definition. However, there are surefire ways to prevent a pregnancy, say by sterilization etc. Does that move incest back into the realm of the acceptable, in your view?

I'm undecided on that, it's a tough issue.

I'm undecided on that, too. I think the "100% safe" criteria should be used as a demarcation. Is it possible for a sterilized woman to remain pregnant? Is there a 1-in-a-million chance, in case her sterilization surgery went wrong? Yes, there is. So no, it shouldn't be allowed. The same goes for a condom which might rupture, so again it's a no.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):
Wow just wow, very surprised buy this, so it's ok for dad to have sex with his son but not with his daughter? In either case its morally wrong.

It's morally wrong, I find it disgusting, would never do it, yada yada yada. But the law shouldn't play moral police. If it's 2 consenting adults, then they may do whatever they want.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):
Just out of curiosity would you think it's ok for a mother to sleep with her son, or is it only appropriate for mums to sleep with their daughters?

For the reasons cited above, I would think it should be legal for a mother to sleep with her daughter, but not with her son (as long as the daughter is adult and consenting).

But honestly I was thinking more about brothers or sisters having sex with each other, which could happen if, for example, they've been raised in different families, but then find each other later on. With the current law, they're not allowed to do anything, which I think is wrong.

I find the case of consenting adults having grown up in the same family to find each other attractive to be less realistic and definitely uncommon. IIRC, we're "wired" not to find our closest relatives attractive, exactly to avoid the offspring of an incest. But if the growing up doesn't happen together, this mechanism isn't triggered.

[Edited 2012-03-25 12:37:06]
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 39):
Whoa, easy there, I think that's a bit of a quick conclusion you're jumping to. If he was the one who got the initiative and approached the 20 year old, he was only "abused" as far as the law is concerned.

Sorry ManuCH I just don't believe that a 12 year old would be seeking out older men, it doesn't play right, you might say only the law considers it abuse but I bet if you asked the majority of people would define this as child abuse.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 39):
When he's older himself, he won't be attracted to younger men (especially not pubescent kids). These are 2 completely different things.

But we don't know that, a lot of people who are pedos were victims themselves.

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 39):
But the law shouldn't play moral police.

That's why we have laws, a lot were based on morals. Some people have moral compasses which are completely out of wack with the vast majority of people, why should we excuse them.
 
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:56 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):

Sorry ManuCH I just don't believe that a 12 year old would be seeking out older men, it doesn't play right, you might say only the law considers it abuse but I bet if you asked the majority of people would define this as child abuse.

If a 12 year old tells me that, then yes. I'd hold him to be incapable of judging the matter correctly. But if a 70 year old tells me that? I'm not so sure. He should be old enough to look back on it and decide whether it was abuse or not.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:28 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I won't get into an argy-barge about things you consider beneath contempt but let me just make the point again - they didn't seek, they didn't take advantage. I did.


Where on earth did you find these guys? They aren't animals incapable of controlling themselves! These guys decided it was ok to have sex with a 12 year old, sorry but there is something wrong with people like them and I think I'm being charitable by saying it's a lack of self esteem or sexual inadequacy.

I understand that you clearly view them with affection, however, if a 12 came on to you would you have sex with them?

Would you be giving them a 'considerable learning experience'?
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:12 am

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 42):
Where on earth did you find these guys?

Around. My circumstances were unusual - although British, because of my father's various overseas postings I was born, raised and educated in countries where I was often the only white boy in brown and black communities and where these things were viewed somewhat differently - widely practiced but never discussed.

I spent time (school holidays) in England where homosexuality generally was widely frowned on and illegal. But no amount of legislation had ever had much effect on nature and we found ways of meeting - I'm not entirely sure, now, how we did it, but we did.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 42):
I understand that you clearly view them with affection, however, if a 12 came on to you would you have sex with them?

I certainly view them with affection - and considerable gratitude. There was a young Arab I knew with whom I had a deep and intimate bond from when I was thirteen until sixteen, when I left the Middle East. It was not a "love affair" in conventional western terms and surely not monogamous on either side, but it remains one of the deepest emotional experiences of my life, two young men from vastly different backgrounds exploring life together. Twenty years later I went back to find him but he had been killed, a solider in an army fighting for a cause in which he had always believed. To this day, I miss him.

The answer to Part 2 is no, I have zero sexual interest in the young and my own interest was never in the old, as I am now. But if a young man wanted to ask me questions, or discuss some aspect of his life with me or his possible sexuality, I doubt I would turn him away.

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[Edited 2012-03-25 18:15:11]
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:08 am

No, no matter how warm and great relations were, when someone was a child and 12 is a child, its not ok. Never should it be ok. And yes that is a textbook case of sexual violations even though the two parties consented. The onus is on the older man to prevent such actions.

Children shouldn't be suspected to sexual activities. At age 12 they aren't mentally developed enough to engage in such activities.

Most countries have 15 years as the age of consent. Suits me fine. After that its non of my business what choices the person makes. I'm happy to offer advise if asked but its not for me to interfere if lawful.

Paedophilia is not something that in any way or any form can be considered acceptable by our societies. Even discussions pointing to perceived grey areas or debates trying to normalise such a crime is bad and only initiated to serve the purpose of normalising a sick and dangerous behaviour.
Paedophilia is one of the most disgusting crimes we see in our societies. The usage of children. So no, never will there be any good paedophiles.

Poland or the Czech republic introduced castration again, the medical version. To me that seems to be a fair response. If you cant handle such urges then best to remove that threat from society while still allowing the perpetrator to remain in his usual life sans sexual capabilities.
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seb146
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 44):
If you cant handle such urges then best to remove that threat from society while still allowing the perpetrator to remain in his usual life sans sexual capabilities.

That is a good idea for repeat offenders. However, there is this scenario which happens a lot in this country:

A couple have been dating for a few years. They are three years apart in age, so when the older one turns 18, the younger is 15 and a minor. If the older one is arrested for engaging in sexual activity, the older one is listed as a sex offender all their life. That has never made sense to me.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 6):
My opinion is that pedophilia is a sexuality, so like hetrosexuality or homosexuality it is not a choice. This makes sense, (why on earth would anyone choose to become something so reviled?).

I disagree.

Hey, some guys like Asian women, have a fetish for certain races in women, other women like certain types of men. I don't think pedphilia is justifiable as anything that's "hard wired" whatsoever and I denounce any claim that it is.

We're sentient people who need to control our urges. We can't act like animals nor chalk all of our perverse practices to some DNA-driven instinctual disorder. Not directing any of this at you specifically, because I read this sort of thing all the time, it's just that I'm tired of this whole notion that "we don't have a choice" a tired and pathetic excuse to absolve any culpability for our actions.

The correct answer as to why pedophiles are why they are is I DON'T CARE. You drop the hammer on any and all of them and enforce the laws to protect our innocent children and you do it so strenuously that if there are any such "celibate pedophiles" that they stay so.

And our culture had better figure out that sexifying teens/preteens needs to come to a screeching halt because that's fueling the fire.
 
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 46):
And our culture had better figure out that sexifying teens/preteens needs to come to a screeching halt because that's fueling the fire.

Yup those daft child beauty pageants should be banned, they must be like catnip to pedos who like little girls.
 
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:12 pm

Quoting vegetables2001 (Thread starter):
Has there been any sort of studies?

I can't find my link to more info right now but there is working being done at the University of Toronto on this subject. If you look up Dr James Cantor information should come up. Also Michael C. Seto does work in the area. I have been taking a class on Sex the State and Legal issues this year is how I came across the information. He is looking at pedophilia and hebephilia and some of his work has included using MRI's to look at the brain and discover differences between the pedophilia's brain and the average persons brain, differences exist in the brain before any 'activities' have taken place. They have looked at people who have the desire to have sexual relations with young people but never act on it and there are differences in the brain that match those who have offended. In Canada as well as Germany there are actually programs to help people in that situation and most of them never ever offend. Meanwhile in some countries if you ever report an attraction to young people you can still end up on an offenders list despite never having done anything.

While sex with minors should never be okay, if it is found that people who are pedophiles are born that way the implications will be very interesting.
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RE: Are There Any 'Good' Paedophiles?

Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 46):
I don't think pedphilia is justifiable as anything that's "hard wired" whatsoever and I denounce any claim that it is.
Quoting slider (Reply 46):
it's just that I'm tired of this whole notion that "we don't have a choice" a tired and pathetic excuse to absolve any culpability for our actions.

You're confusing different matters:

Pedophile desires are most probably "hardwired" indeed, so the individual will not be culpable for having such desires.

What you're incorrectly conflating with that, however, is the culpability of people actually abusing children, which is undisputed by pretty much everyone. (Medically relevant obsessions may shift this from legal guilt to medically necessary confinement for effectively the same end result.)

It can feel convenient to pretend that both were one and the same, but in all likelihood there are many, many more people with pedophile desires than there are people who ever actually violate children. You want all of them killed or incarcerated regardless?

I'm thoroughly relieved that children turn off any sexual thoughts or feelings in me, but I also don't go out and rape grownup people who I am attracted to, regardless of physical capabilities and/or opportunity simply because the mere idea repulses and horrifies me (and for me is another turn-off by itself).

Obviously there are others who still do, and some even do it to children (not that grownup rape victims really wouldn't be traumatized!). My impression is that obsessiveness and lack of control combines with all kinds of different desires, but probably none of the different desires is automatically and inherently linked with such an overriding obsession.

Pedophilia is still an utterly unspeakable desire, and for understandable reasons. But that might also make it more difficult to find out whether the desire as such automatically leads to abuse or if it is and remains under control in most of the people who are afflicted with it when only a few extreme cases of actual abuse are the only ones who ever pop up in the light of day. Is it still plausible that they are truly representative for absolutely all people who have pedophile inclinations? I doubt it.

Either way there is no simple choice to make, really. Those who abuse children must be stopped (like all other kinds of rapists), and prevented even beforehand whenever possible. There's an obvious, overwhelming consensus about that. But what is the practical, realistic consequence? What can actually be done?

That is the difficult part.

From my point of view, I would say the following:

• A desire as such does not inherently make a person evil.

• For whatever reason, be it based on a sexual or other desire, on hatred, greed or anything else, violating another human being is obviously wrong and must be prevented if possible or at least prosecuted after the fact.

• Children are individual human beings and can have individual needs or desires themselves; But they need to be protected from the needs, desires (and neglect) of grownups wherever necessary. As human beings almost all of us feel that impulse almost all of the time (and both almost are a sad reality) and as a society we need to have effective protection laws.

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