User avatar
Dreadnought
Topic Author
Posts: 9832
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:41 pm

The Obama Administration (Eric Holder in particular) denies that voter fraud is a problem, so James O’Keefe went and obtained Holder's ballot, no problem.

The video shows a young man entering a Washington, DC polling place at 3401 Nebraska Avenue, NW, on primary day of this year--April 3, 2012--and giving Holder’s name and address. The poll worker promptly offers the young man Holder’s ballot to vote.

The young man then suggests that he should show his ID; the poll worker, in compliance with DC law, states: “You don’t need it. It’s all right. As long as you’re in here, you’re on our list, and that’s who you say you are, you’re okay.”

http://www.youtube.com/embed/P5p70YbRiPw

By the way - the fine for not purchasing health insurance under Obamacare is $95 per person in 2014 (or 1% of taxable income, whichever is greater), $325 in 2015 (or 2%), and $695 in 2016 (or 2.5%). Thereafter, the mandate is indexed to inflation.

So how come penalizing you for not buying insurance is not a burden, but insisting on an ID to vote (less than $10 per year in most states, free in others) IS a burden.

I'm in favor of healthcare mandates (within certain criteria), but need help with Obama's logic here.



Discuss! Should people have to show their ID to vote? Is it an undue burden?
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
voter fraud is a problem,

It depends on the type fraud you are trying to prevent. Illegals voting? or just one person voting for another?

In the first issue, what is a "good" ID? Passport? Birth Certificate? License or State ID is obviously not good enough.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The Obama Administration (Eric Holder in particular) denies that voter fraud is a problem, s

Was fraud problem when GWB got elected (twice!!)??

That being said, i am in favor of asking for ID to vote. The ID should be akin to a National ID and should be free to obtain by any citizen. That should cover all you requirement no?

But i can heat the GOP now: (1) the govt want us to have National ID? They want to track us! and (2) how much would it cost?? we have no money!!!
Step into my office, baby
 
kingairta
Posts: 454
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:24 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:16 pm

For those who think having to show id vote hurts the poor and the minorities just remember they need an id to participate in welfare programs, buy alcohol, cigarettes, drive a car, open a bank account, cash a check at a bank or check cashing store etc etc.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
So how come penalizing you for not buying insurance is not a burden, but insisting on an ID to vote (less than $10 per year in most states, free in others) IS a burden.

No need to jump through mental hoops drawing analogies to a different situation. The Supreme Court has ruled that Voter ID laws are constitutional and help protect the integrity of elections. See below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_v._Marion_County_Election_Board

The stink raised by the Obama administration is that those southern states which still require election pre-clearance from the Department of Justice under the Voting Rights Act of 1965 are attempting to systematically disenfranchise the poor by placing unreasonable burdens on them. Keep in mind that the South Carolina law being challenged gives the photo ID away for free and provides a 1-800 number to call for free transportation to a government office to obtain the ID.

It would figure that the most transparent, post-racial President and AG would throw the race/poverty card to oppose a fundamentally constitutional measure to uphold due process.  
Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
License or State ID is obviously not good enough.

Why not? The IDs issued by states have every anti-counterfeit feature you would put in a national ID card. Elections are administered by the states, not the federal government.

[Edited 2012-04-09 15:19:52]
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:28 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 3):
Why not? The IDs issued by states have every anti-counterfeit feature you would put in a national ID card. Elections are administered by the states, not the federal government.

Beacuse state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

Plus, Obama wad able to forge a Birt Certificate from 1961. Didnt he? :$
Step into my office, baby
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Topic Author
Posts: 9832
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:36 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
In the first issue, what is a "good" ID? Passport? Birth Certificate? License or State ID is obviously not good enough.

Since elections are managed by the states, I think state ID should be sufficient, but only if actually issued by the state (not a student ID or similar). National ID such as a Passport or national ID (see below) should be fine as well. A birth certificate is worthless as ID, as it has no picture.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
That being said, i am in favor of asking for ID to vote. The ID should be akin to a National ID and should be free to obtain by any citizen. That should cover all you requirement no?

But i can heat the GOP now: (1) the govt want us to have National ID? They want to track us! and (2) how much would it cost?? we have no money!!!

Quite apart from the voting issue, I think a national ID is a good idea, and would be indicate citizenship/residency status, and should be a requirement to get any job, or receive any federally managed benefits.

But I see no reason why it should be free. An administrative fee of $10-20 is perfectly reasonable.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
But I see no reason why it should be free. An administrative fee of $10-20 is perfectly reasonable.

So you want the Govmt to force you to buy broccolli as well?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Since elections are managed by the states, I think state ID should be sufficient, but only if actually issued by the state (not a student ID or similar

Those do not prove citizenship. Do you want illegals voting?

So, for the second time: this wasnt a problem when GWB got elected or when the GOP took the 2010 elections?
Step into my office, baby
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6623
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
It depends on the type fraud you are trying to prevent. Illegals voting? or just one person voting for another?

No, it doesn't. Fraud is fraud.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
Was fraud problem when GWB got elected (twice!!)??

A little red herring.

Voters should be required to provide an ID to register to vote:
-passport
-birth certificate
-naturalization certificate
-anything that proves citizenship

Then a voter should be required to provide an ID to vote. A driver's license or non-driver ID should suffice since in order to register, the person in question would have had to prove citizenship.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):

Because state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

If that does prove to be a problem, then the ID can specify voter or non-voter, much like current IDs in some states distinguish an under 21 ID rather prominently.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5575
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting KingairTA (Reply 2):
For those who think having to show id vote hurts the poor and the minorities just remember they need an id to participate in welfare programs, buy alcohol, cigarettes, drive a car, open a bank account, cash a check at a bank or check cashing store etc etc.

not to mention enroll their children in school.

I hear the argument that voter ID laws also cause problems for the elderly. I belong to a social club where a vast majority of members are elderly and I have had this discussion with them. They all tell me that they needed ID to open a bank account. Nearly all Social Security payments are direct deposit so they need to have a bank account to deposit them in. Those that still get a check get are required to show ID to cash the check.

I live in a lower middle/lower class area and check cashing places are as common as dirt and a lot of them are in liquor stores. I frequent those liquor stores and I can tell you that the ones by my house have signs saying you need a state ID to cash a check or money order. I also go to some payday loan place by my house because they have a fee free ATM and it is closer than the nearest credit union ATM and they have a sign on the window saying ID is required to cash checks and make loans.

Who are these "voters" who have no ID and how do they function in society?
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8572
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
Beacuse state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

The election administrators are still going to match the name on the photo ID to a list of registered voters in a given precinct. Citizenship is established during voter registration.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19761
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:18 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The Obama Administration (Eric Holder in particular) denies that voter fraud is a problem, so James O’Keefe went and obtained Holder's ballot, no problem.
Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The video shows a young man entering a Washington, DC polling place at 3401 Nebraska Avenue, NW, on primary day of this year--April 3, 2012--and giving Holder’s name and address. The poll worker promptly offers the young man Holder’s ballot to vote.

So he's committed a felony and SHOULD be in jail right now. Is he? If not, then why not?

But I'd be fine with the requirement to show an ID if submitting a ballot were mandatory for all citizens, like in Australia. You don't have to vote (you can submit a blank one) but you have to submit one.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Should people have to show their ID to vote?

People should have to show a form of ID to vote.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Is it an undue burden?

Depending on the sort of ID that would be required, and how easy they are to obtain, perhaps.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Kent350787
Posts: 846
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:06 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
But I'd be fine with the requirement to show an ID if submitting a ballot were mandatory for all citizens, like in Australia.

Interestingly, you don't need to show ID here. At times, the electoral commission has forwarded non-compulsory voting cards, but it seems pretty pointless. Most eligible voters would have, or be named on, a Medicare card (non-photo), or drivers license or equivalent phot ID is readily availbel for nearly all eligible voters.
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6623
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
So he's committed a felony and SHOULD be in jail right now. Is he? If not, then why not?

Actually, he does not handle a ballot, nor does he actually say tha he's Holder, nor does he sign for the ballot. He just asks "Do you have an Eric Holder?" He provides an address. Really, that's all. The poll worker assumed he was Holder. Note, around 2:15 he doesn't handle the other ballot at all.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
But I'd be fine with the requirement to show an ID if submitting a ballot were mandatory for all citizens, like in Australia. You don't have to vote (you can submit a blank one) but you have to submit one.

Why would you tie the 2 together?

I find it incredible that we don't require ID to vote. It makes absolutely no sense at all. All the arguments against are easily refuted and border on irresponsible.

What we need ID's for:
Driving
Flying
Opening a bank accunt
Cashing a check
Entering some Federal Facilities
Paying Bills
Get a credit card
Use a credit card
Get Health Insurance
See a doctor for the first time
Get a passport
Give Blood
Get a loan
Enroll in school
Ship packages
Receive packages
Donate money to a political campaign (at least you're supposed to provide some)
Buy a gun
Check into a hotel
Rent a car
Get married
Get divorced
Buy a car
Get a phone
Establish utility service

Does it really make sense not to require ID for voting?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5575
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
What we need ID's for:

Don't forget getting a hunting or fishing license.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Entering some Federal Facilities

entering a defense contractor's plant.

My dad does business with some firms that are defense contractors and he has had to show proof of US citizenship to walk onto the plant floor.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The Obama Administration (Eric Holder in particular) denies that voter fraud is a problem

Eric Holder is an idiot. Why he is the U.S. AG is beyond me. I don't like the guy nor his views on the Obamacare.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
By the way - the fine for not purchasing health insurance under Obamacare is $95 per person in 2014 (or 1% of taxable income, whichever is greater), $325 in 2015 (or 2%), and $695 in 2016 (or 2.5%). Thereafter, the mandate is indexed to inflation.

Huh? Source? I read it was $1K for every month a citizen does not have health insurance.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
I'm in favor of healthcare mandates

In this rough economy, I am not. If one is required to have health insurance, then the government will not stop at requiring citizens to have other items, such as a cell phone (hello, big brother), celery, etc...

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
In the first issue, what is a "good" ID? Passport? Birth Certificate? License or State ID is obviously not good enough.

Passport and/or birth certificate is a start.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
the govt want us to have National ID?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
I think a national ID is a good idea

How many times do I have to repeat this?! Your National ID is your passport! You have some form of ID that is issued by the U.S.A. and has been like that since the existence of this country. I have both, the regular passport and the passport card.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
So he's committed a felony and SHOULD be in jail right now. Is he? If not, then why not?

Ageed, but he is trying to prove a point on two things: 1) To show that Eric Holder is an idiot. and 2) To show how easy it is to impersonate someone at the polls. Keep in mind that the majority of the folks who are running the polling stations are Seniors with nothing else to do. That is also saying something..... But I am not age discriminating anyone...its just that some Seniors are too trusting with others. Back in the 40's and 50's, a lot of people around that time used to be able to leave the house without locking their doors....

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
What we need ID's for:
Driving
Flying
Opening a bank accunt
Cashing a check
Entering some Federal Facilities
Paying Bills
Get a credit card
Use a credit card
Get Health Insurance
See a doctor for the first time
Get a passport
Give Blood
Get a loan
Enroll in school
Ship packages
Receive packages
Donate money to a political campaign (at least you're supposed to provide some)
Buy a gun
Check into a hotel
Rent a car
Get married
Get divorced
Buy a car
Get a phone
Establish utility service
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Don't forget getting a hunting or fishing license.

  
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6623
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:28 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
How many times do I have to repeat this?! Your National ID is your passport! You have some form of ID that is issued by the U.S.A. and has been like that since the existence of this country. I have both, the regular passport and the passport card.

Yes, but a passport is not compulsory, thus does not act as a National ID.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Ageed, but he is trying to prove a point on two things:

Again, tell me what this man did illegal.

Let's keep the debate on target...voter ID.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Yes, but a passport is not compulsory, thus does not act as a National ID

Yes it does. It is issued by the U.S. Government.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Again, tell me what this man did illegal.

Identity theft...for starters. It does not matter if a person is trying to see if a specific someone was on the voter rolls. The person working at said polling place SHOULD have asked for ID before going any further than that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Let's keep the debate on target...voter ID.

It has always been on topic.   
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6623
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
. It does not matter if a person is trying to see if a specific someone was on the voter rolls.

So, if I were to go up and ask to know whether my son is on that particular roll, I've committed ID theft?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
The person working at said polling place SHOULD have asked for ID before going any further than that.

Is he REQUIRED to?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
Yes it does. It is issued by the U.S. Government.

No, it does not. It may be issued by the the U.S. government, but it is not a national ID. It is not compulsory. No law enforcement official can demand it as a form of identification. I'd hazard, that in some parts of the country, some people have never seen one. A passport, in the U.S., has one official function, to grant re-entry into the United States. I have used it as a form of identification to enter some military facilities, but a driver's license would have worked just as well.

Can it be a national ID? Yes, but its cost may prove to be a barrier. $135 for an initial book. Even the $55 for a initial card may be too steep.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
It has always been on topic.

When you entertain the notion that what is depicted in the video is illegal, you're chasing the red herring.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
So, if I were to go up and ask to know whether my son is on that particular roll, I've committed ID theft?

There is probably many ways to commit ID theft, directly and indirectly. In my eyes, this is ID theft indirectly.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Is he REQUIRED to?

I don't know, but I do know in some states it is required....Arizona, for example.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
No, it does not.

Yes it does! It has your picture and your info right on there with the biometric thing. Tell me this: What is required for a citizen to get a passport. Work from that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Can it be a national ID? Yes, but its cost may prove to be a barrier. $135 for an initial book. Even the $55 for a initial card may be too steep.

I agree on that. But it is a start.....

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
When you entertain the notion that what is depicted in the video is illegal, you're chasing the red herring.

Your opinion. However, I was not the only one entertaining that notion.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 1366
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:17 am

Is this an actual problem, or are we imagining that it is a problem?

Whether or not someone can go into an election office and pretend to be someone else, and the actual evidence that people are doing so are two different things.

I've heard plenty of claim that there is this "voter fraud" problem, but not much in the way of actual statistics indicating how much it happens.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
There is probably many ways to commit ID theft, directly and indirectly. In my eyes, this is ID theft indirectly.



No it's not. If I walk into a bank and ask if they have $50,000 cash and then walk out, it is simply really different from saying "I have a gun and give me $50,000. He asked for INFORMATION and was given it. He never once attempted to vote on that ballet. You're either blind or partisan. And as usual, I'm guessing the later. Quit looking like a fool and look at the facts.

[Edited 2012-04-09 19:01:02]
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 21):
No it's not.

Yes it is, and I stand by my argument whether you agree or not.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12390
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:26 am

There is a long history of voter and election fraud in the USA. From 'getting the dead vote', disposing of ballots of the opposition party, bribing drunks, using confusing ballot layouts, someone filling out an absentee ballot for a relative or claiming to be one, altering the collection of votes (even easier in new model computer/digital voting machines), there are many ways over the years voter fraud has occurred. Most states have strict laws that at least reduce that risk. One major problem for the USA is that we don't have a National ID card or citizen registration (unless one is a naturalized citizen)

One problem is that over the years the process to register has been made easy in the USA, perhaps too much so, with potential fraudulent voting possible. When I initially registered to vote in 1972, you had to present your original raised seal birth certificate and other ID (drivers license) to a actual government official in person. In the USA since the late 1970's generally voter registration is done by mail, on trust and penalties only if you are caught in a fraud.

The real issue against stricter voting ID rules is that prior to 1965, most African Americans in the Southern USA states were in fact excluded from voting. The whites used various methods from 'poll taxes', intelligence tests, intimation if a Black person tried to register or try to vote. Most persons of color believe strict voter ID requirements at the polling place is a throwback to those evil days and won't tolerate it. Then you have older as well as other voters that may have issues in getting original documents needed to get a State issued ID, if cheaply or easliy get the documents or get the ID card if in a distant place or with other issues.

Politicians don't want to lose any votes from older voters or from non-white voters or tagged as racist if want major ID rules in conflict with those (mostly Republicans) that want to use the ID law to suppress Democratic party or leaning voters. I suspect this is an issue that will continue to be a battle site and hopefully a sound balance will develop to make sure elections are fair, voters have access without abusive procedures and those not qualified to vote are kept out.
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:29 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
2) To show how easy it is to impersonate someone at the polls.

Putting together a fake ID is pretty easy as well. Next time this guy just cooks up an ID with Eric Holder's name and address on it, slaps his own photo on, and then he gets Holder's ballot when he shows up at the polling station.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
No law enforcement official can demand it as a form of identification.

No law enforcement official can demand any particular form of ID, whether it's issued by the federal government or the state.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
No law enforcement official can demand any particular form of ID, whether it's issued by the federal government or the state.

Yes, they can. So what do you do when you get pulled over and is asked for license, registration and proof of insurance? Give him/her the registration and insurance only?
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:53 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 25):
Yes, they can. So what do you do when you get pulled over and is asked for license, registration and proof of insurance? Give him/her the registration and insurance only?

They're asking for the license because you're driving a car, and they want to make sure you're qualified to do so. That the license doubles as an ID is incidental - even if it didn't double as an ID, they'd want to see it (such as when you go to the FAA to take a flight check - they want to see your certificate, but only to establish your qualifications, since it doesn't have a photo - they'll also want to see some form of photo ID to establish your identity). The police can't mandate you show them a particular document in order to identify yourself. They can create standards (such as something with a photo), but they can't insist solely on a passport, or solely on a driver's license, etc.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):

Fair point, but when a cop on the street stops you when you are walking on the sidewalk and he/she asks for ID for their investigation, you have to show it. If you don't, they can legally detain you until you or someone can identify you. There was a thread on the Arizona immigration law a year or two ago and this exact subject came up on that.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
They can create standards (such as something with a photo), but they can't insist solely on a passport, or solely on a driver's license, etc.

Then what is the solution? The National ID is out of the question as the majority of Americans do not want it. But then again, we already have one: The U.S. Passport.

But nevermind that, some people here don't believe it is a National ID when it was issued by the U.S. Government all along. The postal service does not issue it, the State Department does. That is good enough for me. At the same time, I asked earlier:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Tell me this: What is required for a citizen to get a passport.

I should clearly that: a U.S. Passport.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Can it be a national ID? Yes, but its cost may prove to be a barrier. $135 for an initial book. Even the $55 for a initial card may be too steep.

The Indians are currently IDing every citizen. This means more than a billion people. Every citizen gets an ID card including biometrical data (since many poorer Indian´s fingertips are worn down due to physical work, a retina scan is also taken).
There are several reasons for this motion:
- to fight corruption and sleeze. E.g. aid to poor people is often pocketed by corrupt civil servants, who falsify receipts.
- many million Indians are virtually identityless and can´t vote or claim pensions or welfare because they don´t exist for the state.
- to prevent election fraud.

I doubt that each booking will be as expensive vas the you claim.
The whole motion is being carried by an Indian equivalent of Bill Gates, who uses the brightest IT brains to get the problems sorted.
One example: each applicant will have his data (this includes the fingerprint and retina scans) crossmatched against the whole database to prevent fraudsters from registering multiple times under different identities. Imagine the computer power required to do this!

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:50 am

In the UK you get sent a polling card several weeks prior to the election, but you don't need it to vote. Infact you don't need anything to vote - just walk in, state your name and address and they give you the ballot paper.

And we don't have widespread voter fraud, so perhaps the better fix would be to solve the underlying sociological issue rather than try and force everyone to carry a form of ID.
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Yes it is, and I stand by my argument whether you agree or not.

Umm, you do know that voting records ( list of registered voters names, their addresses, and when they voted) are public documents, and are open to the public. Right? Thats how you get all those advertisements in the mail. The candidates go get the voting data from your local voting office. Heck, anyone can do the same. So, using your logic, I guess every candidate is committing ID Theft too. They are just doing it thousands of times more.

No, you're wrong any way you put it. He just ASKED for INFORMATION in a different method. He went there with the intention of showing how easy it is to illegally vote, and no intention of voting at all. And was he ever wildly successful.

Why don't you move on to the more important part of this discussion about how easy it is to illegally vote, and ask yourself why the Democrats are pushing so hard to make mandatory ID during voting illegal?
As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:39 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 30):
No, you're wrong any way you put it. He just ASKED for INFORMATION in a different method.

I just watched the video, and I have several issues with it personally.

Firstly, he didn't "ask for information in a different method", he did something that that polling officer has probably seen dozens of times that day - he asked 'do you have "me"'. 'Yes, you do have "me", great'. There is little reason to do that just to verify someone elses deails - it can be comfortably presumed that if you are there and you are asking, then you are asking to vote under that name, not that you are requesting someone elses infromation.

Secondly, aside from most of the video being meaningless cuts and quick shots, he keeps going back to the black man saying "there is no proof that there is a problem", as if his video disputes that - yet not once did he actually show anyone else other than himself trying to vote illegally.

He didn't disprove the point being made - he only proved it was possible to vote without ID.

Seems very "Michael Moore" in character, I must say.
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:33 pm

Serious question - why is this even an issue up for discussion? Requiring an official photo ID to vote is of the most basic common sense. What are the people who are against it trying to protect?

BTW, suggest you watch the other videos, funny as heck. There is the dead people voting in New Hampshire, but registering Tim (Timothy) Tebow and Tom (Thomas) Brady to vote in Minnesotta has to be a classic. "Oh, I am sorry, Tom Brady can't come out, he is too depressed, can I just register him myself instead?"   
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6623
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:40 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I don't know, but I do know in some states it is required....Arizona, for example.

And, that is the crux of the debate. I would like to see every state require an ID in order to vote. An ID that matches the name on the roll.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 20):
Is this an actual problem, or are we imagining that it is a problem?

Whether it is a problem or not, apparently there exists the distinct possibilty that voter fraud exists.

I couldn't recall what it took to register to vote, so I looked it up. In Kentucky, you fill out a form, affirm a couple of things through your signature or mark and 'poof' you're registered to vote. I looked up the information in the other jurisdictions I lived (Tarrant County, TX & King's County, NY) and basically found the same thing. There is no requirement that any form of ID need be shown at registration. In my opinion, until that is fixed, ID at the poll is a stop gap. I still feel that an ID must be shown at the poll, but we have to go deeper and require it, with proof of citizenship, at registration.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Yes it does! It has your picture and your info right on there with the biometric thing. Tell me this: What is required for a citizen to get a passport. Work from that.

It is an identification. It is issued by the U.S. government. And yes, you have to prove that you're a citizen to obtain one. But, there is no requirement that you obtain one. It is not mandatory. Much like it is not madatory that anyone have any ID. We do not have a national ID system. We have an ID that can be used as a national ID, but is not used and can not be used as such because of certain hurdles (cost among them).

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
he asked 'do you have "me"'

No, he did not say "Do you have me, Eric Holder?" He said "Do you have an Eric Holder?"

He was asking for information. We can only suppose that the poll worker assumed that the person in the video was Eric Holder and was going to provide him with Eric Holder's ballot. The man never represented himself as Eric Holder...came close, but never did it.

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
it can be comfortably presumed that if you are there and you are asking,

Which is why we should do what we can to prevent fraud. Because it is so easy.

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
He didn't disprove the point being made - he only proved it was possible to vote without ID.

Which is a problem.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
So how come penalizing you for not buying insurance is not a burden, but insisting on an ID to vote (less than $10 per year in most states, free in others) IS a burden.

Good question.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Discuss! Should people have to show their ID to vote?

Yes. A valid State ID where you have to proove your citizenship

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Is it an undue burden?

No. As has been stated you need a valid ID to do just about anything in this country.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
Illegals voting? or just one person voting for another?

All the above.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
The ID should be akin to a National ID and should be free to obtain by any citizen. That should cover all you requirement no?

We already have that n the form of our passports.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
Beacuse state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

But they could if required.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
So, for the second time: this wasnt a problem when GWB got elected or when the GOP took the 2010 elections?

It has always been a problem. But even more so now with the huge amount of illegals.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
How many times do I have to repeat this?! Your National ID is your passport!

Correct. And it could be changed into a simpler form. Do we really need all the stamp spots in the book? It should be changed.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5367
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:49 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The young man then suggests that he should show his ID; the poll worker, in compliance with DC law, states: “You don’t need it. It’s all right. As long as you’re in here, you’re on our list, and that’s who you say you are, you’re okay.”

This part of voting always amazes me, but it highlights some simple facts.
1, If you are registered to vote, you are on your polling location's forms.
2. When you announce who you are, the name is crossed off.

If voter fraud was rampant, you would imagine there would be many cases of folks running in and finding out someone had already voted as them.

I think voter fraud is not the most pressing issue, as the time constraints and logistics of deciding where voter fraud can be used to an advantage and knowing who and who is not on the ballot list is next to impossible.


That being said, I think an ID would be nice, but I don't really think there is a widespread problem looking for an expensive solution.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:29 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
No, he did not say "Do you have me, Eric Holder?" He said "Do you have an Eric Holder?"

And that is a question asked in a context where one can acceptably presume a given intention.

Having worked as a polling station volunteer in the UK on four occasions, I can offer my experience that you get asked similar questions regularly during a polling day - a lot of people tend to identify themselves at a polling station by asking a question similar to the above rather than a statement of identity. But I doubt they are all fraudulently voting...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
He was asking for information. We can only suppose that the poll worker assumed that the person in the video was Eric Holder and was going to provide him with Eric Holder's ballot. The man never represented himself as Eric Holder...came close, but never did it.

So? Again, in the given context, one can reasonably presume the intention of the question - you don't go to a polling station to refresh your marketing list, you go to vote. Every question asked of the polling officers can reasonably be interpreted in that context.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Which is why we should do what we can to prevent fraud. Because it is so easy.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Which is a problem.

Is it a problem of such magnitude that spending billions of dollars solving is worth the outcome? Because anyone defrauding an election on a professional or organised basis won't be trivially stopped just by the requirement to show ID.

You are going to have to ensure that anything you enact will not prevent legitimate voters from voting - and thats not easy, unless you are going to issue them with that ID for free. And a lot of people do not want to hold a state or federal identification document out of principle - how do you reasonably allow them to vote?
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:36 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
It has always been a problem. But even more so now with the huge amount of illegals.

So you re saying that GBW and the 2010 election were won because of illegals?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):

We already have that n the form of our passports.

Which is not free,,..Want to make it free? I am all for that!

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
Beacuse state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

But they could if required.

Required by whom exactly? The Federal Government as to violate the rights of the states? I would LOVE to hear your answer to this one.
Step into my office, baby
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 1366
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 23):
There is a long history of voter and election fraud in the USA. From 'getting the dead vote', disposing of ballots of the opposition party, bribing drunks, using confusing ballot layouts, someone filling out an absentee ballot for a relative or claiming to be one, altering the collection of votes (even easier in new model computer/digital voting machines), there are many ways over the years voter fraud has occurred. Most states have strict laws that at least reduce that risk. One major problem for the USA is that we don't have a National ID card or citizen registration (unless one is a naturalized citizen)

You bring up a lot of points, but only one that I can see ("getting the dead to vote," which happened a long time ago, no indication it is still a real problem today) could be resolved with an ID requirement. The other issues, particularly when it comes to ballot layouts (which had demonstrable impacts on voting and election results 12 years ago), or how computers with no paper trail count votes, would not be resolved by IDs, and those have actually happened.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:07 pm

In response to complaints about requiring some sort of ID to vote....


Call me an elitist, but if you don't have your personal affairs in sufficient order to secure a state-issued picture ID card I'm not sure you are ready to participate in the political workings of a republic. With rights come certain responsiblities - I think establishing who you are in fact is a reasonable requirement to place on those who want a say in the future of the country!
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Topic Author
Posts: 9832
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:08 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
We already have that n the form of our passports.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Correct. And it could be changed into a simpler form. Do we really need all the stamp spots in the book? It should be changed.

Which is it? You say that the passport serves the function, but should be simplified, getting rid of all those pages. A passport NEEDS those pages in order to serve as a passport.

A passport is a document conforming to international standards required for foreign travel. They must be in a certain format (book, with stampable pages), which by necessity costs a bit of money. Not everyone needs a passport.

A national ID card would simply be the photo/data page out of the passport. But non-citizens should be able to have a national ID as well (unlike passports), so a key difference for the national ID card is that it prominantly states your status, either citizen, or student visa (with expiration date), or green card (with expiration date) etc.

Most states provide official ID cards for $10 to $15 for those I checked. I'm sure a national one can be done for a similar amount.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
This part of voting always amazes me, but it highlights some simple facts.
1, If you are registered to vote, you are on your polling location's forms.
2. When you announce who you are, the name is crossed off.

If voter fraud was rampant, you would imagine there would be many cases of folks running in and finding out someone had already voted as them.

I was thinking about that, and I have no idea how or if that is reported at all. A voting official, faced with a crossed off name and someone insisting that he is that person and who presents a photo ID to prove it would probably get waved through, and the official isn't sure if the mark was made by accident or did someone really commit fraud. What happens if someone gives a false name, and the name is crossed off already? Is the person held for questioning, or is he allowed to walk away, saying, "Oh well, I guess I forgot I already voted"?)

And then of course you have the fact that many people don't bother to vote, and if you know a few names from the local nursing home you have a pretty good chance of picking a few "good ones". In a country where only around half of eligible people vote, there is a lot of wiggle room.

Overall I think the main problem is that such incidents are simply not documented, and may happen quite often.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:25 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 39):
Call me an elitist, but if you don't have your personal affairs in sufficient order to secure a state-issued picture ID card I'm not sure you are ready to participate in the political workings of a republic. With rights come certain responsiblities - I think establishing who you are in fact is a reasonable requirement to place on those who want a say in the future of the country!

Ahem - "papers please!"
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Topic Author
Posts: 9832
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:32 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 41):
Ahem - "papers please!"

Stupid comment. Smitty is right - with power (to participate in the direction of the country) comes responsibility.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:42 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
Stupid comment. Smitty is right - with power (to participate in the direction of the country) comes responsibility.

You consider the US government being "responsible" these days with the power thats been granted to them?

DMCA, SOPA, ACTA, the TSA, the PATRIOT Act, "Free Speech Zones" etc etc etc
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5271
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Overall I think the main problem is that such incidents are simply not documented, and may happen quite often.

Maybe because they rarely ever happen. Sorry, but if fraud was such a problem, you'd be hearing more about it. The bigger question is why do some people get so worried about voter fraud with little evidence that it really happens? What's the real agenda behind all this "concern" about voter fraud?

And the bigger question is why would anyone commit voter fraud? What gain is there? Unless it's done on a massive and organized scale, it's unlikely to have much impact on the election.

I don't have a problem showing ID to vote, however, I don't think voter fraud is a real problem to start with and there are other areas that are far more problematic.
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6623
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 36):
You are going to have to ensure that anything you enact will not prevent legitimate voters from voting - and thats not easy, unless you are going to issue them with that ID for free. And a lot of people do not want to hold a state or federal identification document out of principle - how do you reasonably allow them to vote?


I have no problem with a free ID given to citizens who are eligible to vote. No problem with that at all. I would caution that it should be used only for voting and not as some sort of general ID.

Those who do not hold a state ID already refuse to participate in all the activities, and many more, that I listed in reply 13. Do you think they vote? And, if they do vote, I do believe it should be incumbent on them to prove citizenship.

The integrity of our free election process is that important.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:07 pm

Rather than IDs, you may as well just issue out polling cards with a valid unique token for that election, and only allow votes to be cast when a valid card is produced.

Thats your proof of ID for that election.
 
seb146
Posts: 13909
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:20 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 3):
Elections are administered by the states, not the federal government.

Why, then, did the FEDERAL COURT decide our president in 2000?

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
the fine for not purchasing health insurance

People rant and rave that it is "free" health care. But ever single American will purchase health care at a REASONABLE price. None of this $600 a month with $5000 deductable garbage.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):Was fraud problem when GWB got elected (twice!!)??
A little red herring.

No, it is not. Proving a point. No one was interested in "voter fraud" until a Democrat got into the White House. All of a sudden, the far right wing starts screaming about needing to count every ballot and make sure every vote is legitimate. Remember when the right-wing was screaming about voter fraud when people were just adding random names to registration rolls? The state would have thrown those names out. There would have been none of those fake names on the ballot rolls. The state would make sure of that. But, since an organization who helps innercity people register was the target, it stands to reason they are the only ones who commit voter fraud? Really? No one on the right has ever in the whole history of this nation has ever committed voter fraud?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
slider
Posts: 6806
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:35 pm

It is utterly indefensible from an intellectual standpoint to not support the use of IDs to vote.

Voter fraud is a bigger problem than most people reqalize, especially in our big cities; the stories are plentiful of bussing to different precincts, of dead people voting, it happens frequently.

This is one topic where I am absolutely vehement and passionate about: our right to vote is SACRED. Our nation shed blood to maintain the right of self-determination and integrity in our elections and yet it's treated as a game by many, particularly on the left.

Every poll states that the overwhelming number of Americans support a voter ID bill, yet the loony left hangs on to its outdated and baseless claims of voter disenfranchisement. What they forget is that it is us--citizens who protect and value our very right to vote--that are the ones who get disenfranchised by unchecked fraud.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4076
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: Voter ID Issue Discussion

Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:41 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
Why, then, did the FEDERAL COURT decide our president in 2000?

They didn't - the Florida Supreme Court ruled on several things, and the Federal Supreme Court ruled on constitutional matters related to the Florida Supreme Courts rulings.

The Federal Supreme Court didn't rule on anything directly related to the Florida election, it was all constitutionally based. The Florida Supreme Court could have then gone back and made an amended, constitutional ruling, but they chose not to.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Tugger and 7 guests