Kiwirob
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Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:59 am

The trial of ABB starts today, for those who don't remember ABB is accused of murdering 77 people last July.

Quote:
Nine months after he inflicted the greatest national trauma on Norway since World War II, the trial of 33-year-old Anders Behring Breivik was getting underway in the Oslo City Court Monday morning. Breivik was driven in a convoy from his cells at Ila Prison outside the city to the courthouse, where he faces formal charges of committing terrorist attacks, 77 murders, 42 attempted murders and causing massive structural damage after bombing Norway’s government headquarters.

More info here
 
CPH-R
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:35 am

.. and we're off to a flyer, with Breivik refusing to recognize the court, seeing as its legal mandate comes from "multi-cultural parties"  

[Edited 2012-04-16 01:35:50]
 
CXfirst
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:40 am

I'm watching it here from Australia, and it's just angering me. No sign of remorse, etc. Almost seems like he is enjoying himself.  

-CXfirst
 
bjorn14
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:21 am

I don't even see why Norway is having a trial. He admitted he did it (albeit not guilty). Most countries would just have a sentencing hearing and throw him in the slammer.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:22 am

His crying during the playing of his video blog was a bit much to take. The police should have ended it with a bullet on Utoya.
 
travelavnut
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:26 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
I don't even see why Norway is having a trial. He admitted he did it (albeit not guilty). Most countries would just have a sentencing hearing and throw him in the slammer.

Because, luckily, Norway is a civilized country...
Live From Amsterdam!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:33 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Most countries would just have a sentencing hearing and throw him in the slammer.

That's an exaggeration, most civilised countries would have a trial, even the rest would have had a show trial. My beef is with the police, they could have made up for their incompetence by shooting him instead of arresting him.
 
AF1624
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:37 pm

I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

21 years ? Seriously ? For 77 lives ?
Cheers
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
My beef is with the police, they could have made up for their incompetence by shooting him instead of arresting him.

But then you'd have the bleeding hearts of the world berating the police for having executed a man without trial, his rights were violated, yada yada yada...

But I'm glad you recognize that there are some people in the world that we could do better without. Can we count on your support for the death penalty then?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
WestJet747
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:54 pm

I'm not a proponent of the death penalty. But once in a while a case like this comes around where exceptions should be made. When there is this much carnage committed by one man/woman, and it is without a sliver of doubt that he/she was the perpetrator, then there is no reason my tax dollars should pay for them to be incarcerated for the remainder of their life.



Quoting CPH-R (Reply 1):
.. and we're off to a flyer, with Breivik refusing to recognize the court, seeing as its legal mandate comes from "multi-cultural parties"

He made this clear after he was arrested when he was remanded. I'm not surprised he is repeating this sentiment.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Most countries would just have a sentencing hearing and throw him in the slammer.

I'm not aware of any first-world country that does that. No matter how sickening the crime, I believe everyone has the right to a trial. In this case, it will just be a slam-dunk for the prosecution. I just hope the defense doesn't stretch this out longer than it needs to be.
Flying refined.
 
CXfirst
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:02 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But then you'd have the bleeding hearts of the world berating the police for having executed a man without trial, his rights were violated, yada yada yada...

I agree here, just wish he would have raised a gun towards one of the police, so that they had just cause to put a bullet in his head......

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
I'm not aware of any first-world country that does that. No matter how sickening the crime, I believe everyone has the right to a trial. In this case, it will just be a slam-dunk for the prosecution. I just hope the defense doesn't stretch this out longer than it needs to be.

Well seeing as there have been two sets of psychologists to study him, with one set saying he is criminally insane, and one saying he was sane and should be tried as a sane man, it is not as clear cut as many think it is. Yes, he did it, but that is not all the trial is about.

Although something is definitely not right with him, I believe with so much planning and thinking through of his actions, he should be tried as fully accountable, as he never seemed to stray from his ideas.

-CXfirst
 
Stealthz
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 5):
Because, luckily, Norway is a civilized country...

For the crimes he committed- 21 years, that is a joke!!
At something younger than I am now he will be a free man living a protected life with a new identity and a pension.. seems kinda wrong to me.

But this politically correct madness does escape me(read today of another "enlightened" European country that sentenced a woman that left her baby to die .. to avoid family shame! receiving a custodial sentence of 26 WEEKS)

I think Breivik should be committed to life without release.. in a mental prison(denying him the martyr/warrior status he craves)
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dc9northwest
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But I'm glad you recognize that there are some people in the world that we could do better without. Can we count on your support for the death penalty then?

I do not support the death penalty. I think murderers should be left to rot in jail, not killed so they don't feel anything anymore. Better that they suffer in jail...

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 7):
I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?
 
AF1624
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 11):
For the crimes he committed- 21 years, that is a joke!!

Especially when you think that these 21 years will be spent in a room that looks more like a hotel room than a prison cell... individual room with fully equipped bathroom, television, glass window, drawers...

This is a photo taken at Halden prison :

halden prison


Heck, I'd like my room to look as good as this...

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

From what I've read in a French newspaper, there are no cumulative sentences, but there are renewable sentences. Meaning the court puts him in prison for 21 years, and this can be increased if deemed necessary (for bad behaviour for example). But if he behaves (which he probably will), then the maximum sentence is 21 years. It's sort of an automatic parole, if you will.
Cheers
 
CXfirst
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:00 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 13):
From what I've read in a French newspaper, there are no cumulative sentences, but there are renewable sentences. Meaning the court puts him in prison for 21 years, and this can be increased if deemed necessary (for bad behaviour for example)

There are no cumulative sentences, but if he is deemed to still be a risk at the end of his sentence (if I understand it correctly), it can be extended. Wouldn't be surprised if he still keeps his political ideals and lack of remorse at the end of his sentence and be deemed a continued threat, and hence having sentence extensions given to him. I just can't imagine someone showing so little remorse after killing 77 ever becoming a non-threat.

-CXfirst
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):

I'm watching it here from Australia, and it's just angering me. No sign of remorse, etc. Almost seems like he is enjoying himself.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
His crying during the playing of his video blog was a bit much to take. The police should have ended it with a bullet on Utoya.

I agree. This part is the most absurd part of the trial so far.. he shows no sign of remorse when they read the names of the victims out loud, but as soon as his home made video is played, he is crying. He really is a complete nutcase.

The worst part is that he will most likely never regret his actions and it seems like he is treated extremely well in prison and even has access to a computer. And when he is released in 21 years, he will have the right to receive state funded pension I guess... I would be extremely mad if someone I knew had been killed by him and now he is even allowed to explain how he sees the world during the trial and explain why he did what he did.

And one more thing.. it seems absurd that killing 1 or killing 77 people results in the same 21 years of punishment. Apparently you get a huge discount for killing more than 1 person like it is in some crazy way accepted by society to be a mass murderer.. he should have sentences added together like it is done in the US, just to clearly highlight what a disgusting person he is and to make sure that he will never set a foot outside prison again.

[Edited 2012-04-16 09:08:52]
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:13 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 7):
I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

21 years ? Seriously ? For 77 lives ?

I thought Norway was considering using some sort of "domestic terrorism" charge that would allow for a maximum of 30 years?

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 13):
Especially when you think that these 21 years will be spent in a room that looks more like a hotel room than a prison cell... individual room with fully equipped bathroom, television, glass window, drawers...

I don't think the Norwegian prison system was developed with someone like Breivik in mind. In general, the prison system there focuses on rehabilitation rather than punishment. I remember right after the attacks in Oslo we had an enlightening discussion about this here.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:18 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But then you'd have the bleeding hearts of the world berating the police for having executed a man without trial, his rights were violated, yada yada yada...

Police shoot people all the time, in this instance after what the arresting officers saw, I think it would have been justified, anyone who complained would have looked stupid.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):

I agree. This part is the most absurd part of the trial so far.. he shows no sign of remorse when they read the names of the victims out loud, but as soon as his home made video is played, he is crying.

All the Norwegian channels blanked out the descriptions of the deaths, you had to watch CNN, Sky or BBC to get the un censored version.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
He really is a complete nutcase.

He's not nuts, the state tried to get him certified nuts, then they could have held him in an institution indefinitely, or until he showed remorse and they certified him sane, he could have been back on the streets in a couple of years, if he was nuts. He was certified sane.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
He's not nuts, the state tried to get him certified nuts, then they could have held him in an institution indefinitely, or until he showed remorse and they certified him sane, he could have been back on the streets in a couple of years, if he was nuts. He was certified sane.

I know all this but you're just not completely sane if you are able to do something like this. He is probably not psychotic, no..
 
Flighty
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:28 pm

I hope during his trial 100s of girls describe how they will now reject pure Norwegian boys and have children exclusively with men from other countries, and make it clear that his actions directly caused the Norwegian bloodline to become more multicultural.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 7):
I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

21 years ? Seriously ? For 77 lives ?

He can get 21 years + he can possibly be sentenced to containment (the Norwegian legal term is forvaring), a form of special protective custody which means he may be held in prison indefinitely and is subject to release only at the discretion of a judge after his sentence is served. Containment is roughly comparable to a life sentence in many other European countries. I am guessing that this is what he most likely will get. It basically means life in prison. He is not likely to get out.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

No

****************************


As for capital punishment in Norway:

An opinion poll taken after the 2011 Norway attacks showed that the opposition to the death penalty remained firmly entrenched, with 16 percent supporting and 68 percent opposed

[Edited 2012-04-16 10:06:39]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:16 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
Police shoot people all the time, in this instance after what the arresting officers saw, I think it would have been justified, anyone who complained would have looked stupid.

Look at all the people who whined and moaned that Osama Bin Ladin should have been captured instead of executed. I can't think of any time that a criminal killed by cops (even in the middle of a gunfight) didn't result in editorials and outrage among the bleeding heart crowd.

I'm not that much of a fan of the death penalty due to past errors. But when it comes to someone where there is no possible doubt, and where the crime shows a clear and total guilt combined with sociopathy, why keep him around?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 20):
He can get 21 years + he can possibly be sentenced to containment (the Norwegian legal term is forvaring), a form of special protective custody which means he may be held in prison indefinitely and is subject to release only at the discretion of a judge after his sentence is served. Containment is roughly comparable to a life sentence in many other European countries. I am guessing that this is what he most likely will get. It basically means life in prison. He is not likely to get out.

That sounds like what Canada and England do for a small number of convicted people. In Canadian criminal law they get designated as a "dangerous offender" that lets them keep the person in prison for an indeterminate amount of time.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 20):

An opinion poll taken after the 2011 Norway attacks showed that the opposition to the death penalty remained firmly entrenched, with 16 percent supporting and 68 percent opposed

And, it's your country. I may or may not agree with how your citizenry decides to punish criminals, but you are rightly free to deal with criminals your own way.

Thanks for posting the update on this trial. Outside of a few updates on the progress here in the news over the past year, there hasn't been much press coverage.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:19 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
I hope during his trial 100s of girls describe how they will now reject pure Norwegian boys and have children exclusively with men from other countries, and make it clear that his actions directly caused the Norwegian bloodline to become more multicultural.

From my observations Norwegian girls won't go anywhere near the Pakistani, Somali, Arab imports we have, now Norwegian men on the other had don't appear to be very picky.
 
aloges
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 18):
I know all this but you're just not completely sane if you are able to do something like this. He is probably not psychotic, no.

His crime and personality, or what transpires of it, remind me of certain characters constructed in books or movies: those which we refer to as "evil". They have some sort of higher aim that would strike any normal person as insane right away, but they pursue it with utter ruthlessness and astonishing (in the worst possible sense of the word) endurance. To them, human lives - no matter the number - are far less important than achieving what they have in mind, so they torture and murder without hesitation or remorse if it becomes "necessary".
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 24):
His crime and personality, or what transpires of it, remind me of certain characters constructed in books or movies: those which we refer to as "evil". They have some sort of higher aim that would strike any normal person as insane right away, but they pursue it with utter ruthlessness and astonishing (in the worst possible sense of the word) endurance. To them, human lives - no matter the number - are far less important than achieving what they have in mind, so they torture and murder without hesitation or remorse if it becomes "necessary".

Have you read his manifesto? It certainly seems from what he wrote that is exactly how he saw himself as long as you replace "evil" with "hero".
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:42 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 24):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 18):
I know all this but you're just not completely sane if you are able to do something like this. He is probably not psychotic, no.

His crime and personality, or what transpires of it, remind me of certain characters constructed in books or movies: those which we refer to as "evil". They have some sort of higher aim that would strike any normal person as insane right away, but they pursue it with utter ruthlessness and astonishing (in the worst possible sense of the word) endurance. To them, human lives - no matter the number - are far less important than achieving what they have in mind, so they torture and murder without hesitation or remorse if it becomes "necessary".

You have quite a few of those among people with radical political ideologies or religious fanatics.
Anything is justified as long as it serves the final goal.
You could include you standard SS concentration camp guard or internal KGB officer.
Most terrorists also fall under this category.
As Stalin said: "If one person dies, it is a tragedy. If a million people die, it is just statistics."

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
aloges
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 25):
Have you read his manifesto?

No, I don't think it deserves the attention. In any case, I've already read more than enough hateful insane garbage on the internet and figured that I should stop at some point.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
You have quite a few of those among people with radical political ideologies or religious fanatics.

absolutely   

By the way, one of the characters I was thinking of is Deacon Vorbis from Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods" - highly recommended; it may be comic fantasy, but it's packed to the point of bursting with parables.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 27):
By the way, one of the characters I was thinking of is Deacon Vorbis from Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods" - highly recommended; it may be comic fantasy, but it's packed to the point of bursting with parables.

As are all books by Terry Pratchett. I´m a fan of his books.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:02 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 27):
No, I don't think it deserves the attention. In any case, I've already read more than enough hateful insane garbage on the internet and figured that I should stop at some point.

I don't think it adds attention, only that it makes you more aware of what he was or wasn't thinking. Since the first mental competency exam said he was insane reading it lets you make your own informed determination (however unscientific) of whether you think he is or isn't. He seemed very cognizant of what he was doing from what I could tell. He spent months if not years preparing for that horrible day in Oslo.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
bjorn14
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
I'm not aware of any first-world country that does that.

In the US if you plead guilty...no jury trial....straight to the sentencing hearing. I'd forgot they were still trying to determine his sanity.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

Nope.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
he shows no sign of remorse when they read the names of the victims out loud,

Even while the prosecutor was reading exactly how each victim died, i.e. bullet to head.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
From my observations Norwegian girls won't go anywhere near the Pakistani, Somali, Arab imports we have, now Norwegian men on the other had don't appear to be very picky.

  

They want foreign women who aren't so 'liberated'.

Tomorrow should be fun as he gets to take the stand for 15 mins.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
In the US if you plead guilty...no jury trial....straight to the sentencing hearing. I'd forgot they were still trying to determine his sanity.

Sometimes you have people who confess having carried out crimes, where they were never involved in. Usually these people have some mental issues. The problem is that sometimes the police /prosecutor / judge go the easy way and sentence such a person, who then serves in jail, while the real criminal is still at large, committing more crimes.
So it is the prosecutor´s and police´s duty to also check evidence, which would give the suspect an alibi.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:53 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But I'm glad you recognize that there are some people in the world that we could do better without. Can we count on your support for the death penalty then?

I'd rather he go to jail with a bunch of "multicultural" prisoners. Don't worry; he won't last long.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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CXfirst
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 16):
I thought Norway was considering using some sort of "domestic terrorism" charge that would allow for a maximum of 30 years?

In Norway you can get 30 years for crimes against humanity, but I'm unsure if he will get this.

I also took notice to his calls to the police from Utoeya. These were calls during his killings. No real emotion, speaking without any stuttering, sounds like any other call, no rush, normal paced call where he states his name, what is role is (leader in....). If I was on the receiving end of that call, I would have thought it would be impossible for him to be in the middle of the process of killing 69 youths.

-CXfirst
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:26 am

I haven't watched any of it yet. But it seems he's not "crazy" in the clinical sense, correct? An extremist who was quite content to be brutal and destructive for his "cause"

If this is the case, obviously 21 years is not enough. For starters, he is unlikely to shed his beliefs over that period. When released, he will be like a hero of the extreme right and will probably cause further destruction.

That picture of the prison cell is luxury compared to what I lived in during my university days!!!
 
ltbewr
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:31 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
Tomorrow should be fun as he gets to take the stand for 15 mins.

Is this a mandated requirement or is it optional for the accused in Norway? In the USA you are not required and indeed there are Constitutional level protections, with some limited exceptions, that you do not have to take the stand in any criminal trial to be subject to questions by your defense counsel or the prosecutor. I would be concerned that his time on the stand will be, as we have seen in many trials of political protesters, of him spewing his sick, offensive and mindless rantings rather than a presentation of a defense.

It is too bad Breivik didn't take his own life or try to shoot a cop, but then we didn't want an vigilante or murder by cop situation either. Since he is still alive he gets the opportunity of a trial and the system has to go it's way. Yes, the possible sentence is far too low compared to the standards in some countries but at least they don't have the moral challenging choice of a death penalty. Hopefully he will end up with the purgatory of living the rest of his life in a jail for the mentally ill.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:56 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
He spent months if not years preparing for that horrible day in Oslo.

This is another thing. Will the trial look at how someone could plan such a thing, buy all the fertilizer & equipment etc without a single soul noticing he was at least a little odd? Surely after the bomb going off and the bullets being fired was not the first time anybody realized what views this man held? I mention it just in view of it not happening again by some copycat to support whatever agenda.
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CXfirst
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:29 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 36):
Surely after the bomb going off and the bullets being fired was not the first time anybody realized what views this man held? I mention it just in view of it not happening again by some copycat to support whatever agenda.

People would have noticed his far-right views, etc. But I don't think anybody would even begin to imagine his actions. He had set up a farming business, so his purchase of fertilizer wasn't seen as odd (although we know now that the business wasn't real).

The prosecuter went through Breivik's life before the attack, and I couldn't see anything that would cause any alarms to go in my head. Possibly his involvement with the "Knights Templar", however, this was held pretty quiet, and the prosecuters are still unsure about his level of involvement, or even if the organization exists at all. There were of course purchases that might have put out alarms, but these were bought from different sellers at different points of time, and I know people who have more weapons than he bought, so again, hard to single him out before the event took place.

-CXfirst
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:06 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 37):
People would have noticed his far-right views, etc. But I don't think anybody would even begin to imagine his actions. He had set up a farming business, so his purchase of fertilizer wasn't seen as odd (although we know now that the business wasn't real).

I think he was very good at hiding his point of view, most of the people who knew him didn't know anything about this. Besides being anti immigrant in Norway is more common than not.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:24 am

Indeed, in one of his manifests he even laid out how to purchase large quantities of fertilizer without arousing suspicion, stating how much farm land you need in order to purchase x amount of ANFO, and how to mask the purchase by buying y amount of other materials.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:08 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 34):
I haven't watched any of it yet. But it seems he's not "crazy" in the clinical sense, correct? An extremist who was quite content to be brutal and destructive for his "cause"

He was just as crazy as a member of the SS Einsatzgruppen, who executed Jews in the German occupied territories in WW2: The Jewish conspiracy is trying to destroy Germany, so we have to kill them all before they destroy us. No mercy with women and children, the children will eventually grow up into adult Jews. Just think about them as vermin, which has to be destroyed.
I think that Breivik´s mindset would have fitted very well in to the Nazi SS.

Jan

[Edited 2012-04-17 01:13:34]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
StarAC17
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:55 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But then you'd have the bleeding hearts of the world berating the police for having executed a man without trial, his rights were violated, yada yada yada...

Look whoever thinks that is out to lunch.

I don't care how liberal someone is if you are a police officer that sees a person shooting anybody you shoot the shooter simple as that. If a cop shoots someone unarmed than there rights issue should come into play.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):

I'm not a proponent of the death penalty. But once in a while a case like this comes around where exceptions should be made. When there is this much carnage committed by one man/woman, and it is without a sliver of doubt that he/she was the perpetrator, then there is no reason my tax dollars should pay for them to be incarcerated for the remainder of their life.

It's an easy way out, If I ever killed someone even if it was in passion and knew I would get caught I would do everything possible to either get off or get the death penalty. So much better than a life sentence IMO.
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CPH-R
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:59 am

Looks like he delivered a key line as far as a potential "forvaring" sentence is concerned, by stating that he'd do it all again.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:02 pm

EXPLAINED: The Norwegian Legal System Where Mass Murderer Breivik Is On Trial

Read more: http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-h...rate-420142-Apr2012/#ixzz1sKGjldZm
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:04 pm

The system with the lay judges sounds very much like the German system.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 13):
This is a photo taken at Halden prison :

 Wow! That's not a prison! That's a hotel! You gotta be kidding me!!! I can't even get my room to look as good as THAT!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 35):
Is this a mandated requirement or is it optional for the accused in Norway?

No it's not mandated but it is his right.

He said in his 70-minute testimony he would do it again in a heart beat.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 45):
That's not a prison! That's a hotel! You gotta be kidding me!!! I can't even get my room to look as good as THAT!

You can tell a lot about a country by its prisons, and how it treats its inmates...

That said, some people definitely don't deserve such a prison cell, aka hotel room.

It does not seem to me that Breivik is someone who can be rehabilitated, unfortunately. I don't think the Norwegian justice system is designed to deal with such people, but it's still better than the antithesis (innocent people jailed in 3rd world countries, for one).

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 20):
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

No
Quoting AF1624 (Reply 13):
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

From what I've read in a French newspaper, there are no cumulative sentences, but there are renewable sentences. Meaning the court puts him in prison for 21 years, and this can be increased if deemed necessary (for bad behaviour for example). But if he behaves (which he probably will), then the maximum sentence is 21 years. It's sort of an automatic parole, if you will.

Thanks for the answers, guys. I didn't think so. Hopefully this fellow will get a full sentence, as there's no doubt of his guilt and of his being a menace to society. Don't think it matters that much if he'll be in a prison or a mental institution, as long as he doesn't walk around on the streets.
 
CXfirst
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Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:13 pm

RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
I don't care how liberal someone is if you are a police officer that sees a person shooting anybody you shoot the shooter simple as that. If a cop shoots someone unarmed than there rights issue should come into play.

When the police arrived, he was not shooting, he had layed down his weapon and surrendered. If the police had shot him with that happening, there would have been a thorough investigation.

Let's not forget, at the start, witness reports were mentioning two shooters, and the police were also wondering if there was a larger network. Without Breivik's police interviews, some of these questions would have been left unanswered.

-CXfirst
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today

Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:40 am

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 47):
It does not seem to me that Breivik is someone who can be rehabilitated, unfortunately. I don't think the Norwegian justice system is designed to deal with such people...

I think you are very right.

To me it seems like the law makers in "our" part of the world look upon imprisoning of criminals only in a "single dimensional way". To me it has (at least) three dimensions:

1. To educate criminals to become non-criminal.
2. To protect society from criminality.
3. To "scare" potential criminals from passing the line to criminality.

It seems to me that politicians only talk about dimension number 1.

According to number 2 it is a crime against the Norwegian society if Breivik can get a time limited sentence. In this context I wouldn't exclude him being released on an amnesty after a few decades in case he changes to an entirely different person and proves rock stable over at least a decade in prison.

But taking number 3 into account? No, people who might plan similar things, they should know in advance that their exit from prison is the graveyard only.

We need more intelligent politicians who are able to look at our justice systems in a multi-dimensional way. What they call "humanity" in our justice systems is sometimes "crime" against ordinary people. And to what purpose? If we imagine that Breivik is released in some twenty years time, there is no way he can live a life. Nobody will want to walk on the same side of the streets as him. Nobody will talk to him. How many days (hours or minutes) will you give him before he gets killed? Police will in any case have to protect him until his dust is spread on the sea.

[Edited 2012-04-17 19:54:24]
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