Starbuk7
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Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:04 am

Just getting through the scandal for bounties on other teams players. Now they find out that they bugged the visiting teams coaches box for the last three years.
http://espn.go.com/chicago/story/_/i...esdrop-opposing-coaches-home-games
I guess when it rains it pours. This should garner a fine similar to the one the Patriots got for the spy-gate scandal.
 
71Zulu
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
Now they find out that they bugged the visiting teams coaches box for the last three years.

Allegedly, but I agree it's getting pretty ridiculous now. Once the darlings of the NFL but no more and I'm still wondering if Sean Payton and Drew Brees will end up in Dallas. No excuse and I mean no excuse for Drew not being signed, team in total freefall now.
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:00 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
Could It Get Any Worse

Well, it could, depending on what happens to players. And obviously offensive players won't be involved in this, but what if they ended up losing Drew Brees? New Orleans could have a rough, rough season ahead of them.
 
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
Now they find out that they bugged the visiting teams coaches box for the last three years.

Um, it was 2002-2004, hardly the last three years. Illegal as hell, yes, but not the last three years. BTW, the Saints were 9-7, 8-8, and 8-8 in those three years. Jim Haslett is long gone as head coach and I don't think there's a single player left from the fiasco. As for Loomis, his goose is cooked if these allegations turn out to be true.
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ER757
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
Well, it could, depending on what happens to players.

I've been wondering about this. The NFL handed out all those suspensions to the coaches and GM but nothing to the players who took part. Are we waiting for the other shoe to drop?

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 3):
As for Loomis, his goose is cooked if these allegations turn out to be true.

I believe in innocent until proven guilty, but I got suspicious when he said "these allegations are 1000 percent false."
1000 percent? Methinks he doth protest too much. Just like some of the baseball steroid boys (Rafael Palmiero for one) when they vehemently denied the accusations.
 
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 4):
I've been wondering about this. The NFL handed out all those suspensions to the coaches and GM but nothing to the players who took part. Are we waiting for the other shoe to drop?

I think that the suspensions for the coaches and GM's were more related to the lying and cover up related to bounty-gate. They had already been warned about it. I think they are going to have a tougher time picking out which players participated.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 1):
No excuse and I mean no excuse for Drew not being signed, team in total freefall now.

I am shocked also. I suspect now they will get a deal done to at least distract the fans from all their issues.
 
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:58 am

There is a deep and long term problem with the Saints that may need a 'death penalty' as to the ownership on down but it also the huge financial incentives that encourage cheating, breaking rules and laws. Of course, N.O. is a place where the laws are a bit relaxed as to a number of things, indeed that makes it French Quarter famous, but it is also full of corruption on all levels. That attitude seems to have become part of the team's culture and now it is hurting them.

The owner needs to face a severe financial penalty from his own pocket, not the teams, indeed by the $Millions to end this culture that is now turning on him, the team, the players, the city and the league.

Quoting corocks (Reply 5):
Quoting ER757 (Reply 4):I've been wondering about this. The NFL handed out all those suspensions to the coaches and GM but nothing to the players who took part. Are we waiting for the other shoe to drop?
I think that the suspensions for the coaches and GM's were more related to the lying and cover up related to bounty-gate. They had already been warned about it. I think they are going to have a tougher time picking out which players participated.

As to the players, the NFLPA is pretty much taking the stand that the players are not to blame, it is management and the coaches. They are still angry that they had to take some cuts in the new contract and will back their members to the hilt, to show their power. The NFL Commissioner and owners all know the players are angry, they don't want any labor unrest so are buying time before they make any decisions and may have to negotiate with the union as to the penalties before the4y are given.
 
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:44 am

It could always get worse. The season hasn't started yet.
 
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:22 pm

This is called "Cajunfreude" LMAO!

Saints have a bit problem. And it could be worse...the Superdome could collapse ala the Metrodome.

But it's not looking good. If any of this wiretapping stuff is remotely true, Goodell will have the biggest crisis in his tenure--far eclipsing the labor deal, bounties, etc.
 
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par13del
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:34 pm

Yes it can, Drew Brees can decide that being a part of this team is not in his best interest or the image that he wants to portray of all that is good in New Orleans.
Personally, I think he should have made such a decision long ago after they turned him around, I am getting the feeling that he somehow thinks this is more than just business and the almightly dollar, he is in for a shock. The team is playing on his emotional ties to the city to get the best deal possible for their pocketbook, he need to get rid of his emotions and negotiate in like fashion.
 
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:49 pm

I'm impressed with how unified the denials are on this one. I don't think this report is true, and all the report says is the device existed, and says there is no evidence that it was ever used. However, for the sake of discussion...

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
This should garner a fine similar to the one the Patriots got for the spy-gate scandal.

Why? The article says the device was "hard-wired to the audio feed of the opposing coaches" which if true is 10x worse than video-taping signals during the game.

The rule is and has been for a long time what is quoted, which prohibits "videotape machines, telephone tapping or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic device that might aid a team during the playing of a game". Clearly if the article is true, the acts are illegal.

It is legal to steal signs as long as you don't use video taping, and signal stealing happens all the time, although the NFL doesn't want to talk about that. What happens is scouts sit in the booth with binoculars and write the signals down instead of using a camera.

Belichick thought the rule meant that you could video tape signs as long as you didn't use them "during the playing of a game".

We have no idea if the Saints used the information during the game, but in any case secretly bugging the audio feed of the other coach is 10x more informative and more underhanded than having an assistant standing on your sideline openly pointing a camera at the other team's sideline.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 4):
I've been wondering about this. The NFL handed out all those suspensions to the coaches and GM but nothing to the players who took part. Are we waiting for the other shoe to drop?

Yes. The NFL said it needs to discuss the punishment with the player's union. I don't know why that's taking so long, but another shoe will drop.

Quoting par13del (Reply 9):
Yes it can, Drew Brees can decide that being a part of this team is not in his best interest or the image that he wants to portray of all that is good in New Orleans.

He can do what he wants to do, but New Orleans has applied the francise tag, so he's not just able to play for another team for this season, and potentially the following one too if NO wants to slap the tag on him again.
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
but New Orleans has applied the francise tag,

Thanks, forgot that, based on an interview he gave on ESPN, this is the second time he has had such a tag and he did not like the first one.
 
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
spy-gate scandal.

What is up with this "gate" crap? This is one hell of an overly used term that has been beaten to death more times than I can count. When I think of "gate", I think of the Watergate cover up. Has the media lost it's creativity here??

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 1):
Drew Brees

I think Brees is victim here.... If I was him, after all that has happened in this scandal, I would be demanding for a trade or be cut loose by the Saints immediately.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 2):
New Orleans could have a rough, rough season ahead of them.

Oh, they have been having a rough off-season anyway.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 4):
Are we waiting for the other shoe to drop?

I think that Goodell is trying to figure out how to get this past the players union first before doing anything.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
He can do what he wants to do, but New Orleans has applied the francise tag, so he's not just able to play for another team for this season, and potentially the following one too if NO wants to slap the tag on him again.

I disagree. With the doom and gloom that the Saints or dealing with, they may have to deal with losing Brees anyway. To me, Franchise tags are ridiculous and a waste of time and money. If Brees feels that remaining with the Saints is not in his best interest, he will seek a way out no matter how much the Saints want to retain him. Again, since the status of how things are going in NOLA and I was Brees, I would find a way to bolt. New Orleans screwed this up to no fault of Brees. That, to me, is justification in bolting to another team.

The Saints screwed Brees royally.
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:24 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
With the doom and gloom that the Saints or dealing with, they may have to deal with losing Brees anyway.

The best cards are in the employer's hands, as usual.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
To me, Franchise tags are ridiculous and a waste of time and money.

To me, Franchise tags are asinine yet pretty effective at what they are designed to do, which is to help a team keep its star players.

The player knows worst case he's going to get one year's pay at the high end of the scale.

The team knows they're almost certainly going to get one more year's service out of the player, because sitting out is usually career suicide.

In most cases, it just buys time for the parties to come to an agreement, since the team wants their best player to play and the player wants a long term contract.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
If Brees feels that remaining with the Saints is not in his best interest, he will seek a way out no matter how much the Saints want to retain him.

But his options are limited. He can sit for 12 games and make himself available for four so he gets a year of eligibilty and after that he can see if NO franchises him again or if someone else will invest top dollars in a guy who just told his last employer to stuff it.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
Again, since the status of how things are going in NOLA and I was Brees, I would find a way to bolt.

But his options are limited, by design.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
New Orleans screwed this up to no fault of Brees. That, to me, is justification in bolting to another team.

I agree.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
The Saints screwed Brees royally.

If you mean they should have signed him long ago, I agree.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
To me, Franchise tags are asinine yet pretty effective at what they are designed to do, which is to help a team keep its star players.

That did not work with Shaun Alexander after the franchise tag was applied to him as a Seahawk. Alexander pretty much told Seattle "Go screw yourself" the next season.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
If you mean they should have signed him long ago, I agree.

Signing him long ago or singing him at all is irrelevent. The point is that The Saints screwed up big time and why should Brees have to pay for it? By keeping Brees around, they are punishing him for their mistakes. Brees does not deserve this. I say let him go.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
The player knows worst case he's going to get one year's pay at the high end of the scale.

Franchise tags don't pay out much. They lose a lot of money.
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
That did not work with Shaun Alexander after the franchise tag was applied to him as a Seahawk. Alexander pretty much told Seattle "Go screw yourself" the next season.

I didnt know about it so I found the following:

Quote:

In that pre-free-agent period of 2005, the Seahawks arrived at long-term deals with key cogs Matt Hasselbeck and Walter Jones, and then franchised Alexander. Before camp, they arrived at a one-year deal with Alexander with the promise they wouldn't franchise him again the next season.

Alexander went on to be the league MVP with 370 carries and a record 27 rushing touchdowns that season. It led to a huge (but heavily back-loaded contract) the next year, and his productivity declined dramatically. He was gone after two more seasons.

Ref: http://seattle.sbnation.com/seattle-...-2012-franchise-tag-marshawn-lynch

I guess you are saying that he played well for his franchise year and signed the big contract, then chose to not perform because he was pissed about the franchise tag?

I suppose it could go down that way, but there are a million other reasons a player can chose to not perform once signed to a big contract.

Sure, being pissed about being franchised is one of them, but the team should know the player pretty well before they sign a huge deal with him, and factor that into their decision to sign him.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
Signing him long ago or singing him at all is irrelevent. The point is that The Saints screwed up big time and why should Brees have to pay for it? By keeping Brees around, they are punishing him for their mistakes. Brees does not deserve this. I say let him go.

Because the NFL is a business, and Brees has signed a contract.

Sure, I feel bad for him, kinda, but there's a lot more people that I think deserve sympathy more than him.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:56 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
I guess you are saying that he played well for his franchise year and signed the big contract, then chose to not perform because he was pissed about the franchise tag?

Alexander performed well BEFORE the franchise tag. The next year, he did not perform because he was pissed that he did not get the touchdown record the year prior, and was pissed at Holmgren. About Alexander being pissed about being tagged, I don't know. But he was pretty sour about not being allowed, by Holmgren, not to get the touchdown record.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
Because the NFL is a business, and Brees has signed a contract.

True, but there are ways to get OUT of that contract. Just because you are signed into a contract does not mean you have to abide by it, you can always request to either 1) get waived or 2) request a trade.
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):

Alexander performed well BEFORE the franchise tag. The next year, he did not perform because he was pissed that he did not get the touchdown record the year prior, and was pissed at Holmgren. About Alexander being pissed about being tagged, I don't know. But he was pretty sour about not being allowed, by Holmgren, not to get the touchdown record.

From what I read, the franchise tag worked as designed. Alexander's franchise year was a very good year for him, thus the big contract after it. Without the tag, he would have been signed by someone else that franchise year.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):

True, but there are ways to get OUT of that contract. Just because you are signed into a contract does not mean you have to abide by it, you can always request to either 1) get waived or 2) request a trade.

Sure, and you can even hold out, but none of those scenarios tend to work out very well.

They are all signs of dis-loyalty, and they make the next team wonder if they can expect you to not become dissatisfied easily and not use the same tactics against them.

At least that's the way it works in the NFL.

In the NBA, it seems the dis-loyalty from both teams and players is a part of the game, sigh.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:49 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Alexander's franchise year was a very good year for him, thus the big contract after it.

No. The Franchise year was the year AFTER he almost got the touchdown record, thus was denied the opportunity to do so by Holmgren.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Without the tag, he would have been signed by someone else that franchise year.

He had one more year, IIRC before the Franchise tag.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
They are all signs of dis-loyalty, and they make the next team wonder if they can expect you to not become dissatisfied easily and not use the same tactics against them.

Franchise tags are applied without the player's approval. A team can place a tag even if a player does not like it. Alexander was one of them. And so was Sean Locklear.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
In the NBA, it seems the dis-loyalty from both teams and players is a part of the game, sigh.

Franchise tags are stupid & silly, they don't serve a purpose at all. The prevent the player from moving "up" to where they want to be.
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:37 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
Franchise tags are applied without the player's approval. A team can place a tag even if a player does not like it. Alexander was one of them. And so was Sean Locklear.

In the stuff you were responding to, I was referring to what happens when a player requests a trade or a waiver or chooses to sit out.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 18):
Franchise tags are stupid & silly, they don't serve a purpose at all. The prevent the player from moving "up" to where they want to be.

You are contradicting yourself. They do serve a purpose, they prevent the player from moving "up" to where they want to be.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
I was referring to what happens when a player requests a trade or a waiver or chooses to sit out.

I dunno, I assume they still get paid.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
You are contradicting yourself

No, I am not. Franchise tags PREVENTS players from "moving up" to where they want to be. They are stuck with said team whether they like it or not.

I don't think MLB has it, but if they don't then they are doing something right.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
they prevent the player from moving "up" to where they want to be.

That's what I said.....
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Mir
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:55 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Belichick thought the rule meant that you could video tape signs as long as you didn't use them "during the playing of a game".

When else would you use them?

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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:51 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
No, I am not. Franchise tags PREVENTS players from "moving up" to where they want to be. They are stuck with said team whether they like it or not.

Indeed, so they do serve a purpose, just one that benefits the team more than the player.

That's the way the NFL works, it's an owner's league.

From the beginning of the player's career the owners have the upper hand. They control when they can be drafted and by who. Their first four years are totally under the control of the drafting team, and under the new labor agreement, the team now has an option for the fifth, and as always they can use the francise tag if they want to keep the player badly enough.

Given that the *average* NFL career is around four years long, that's a tremendous amount of control.

Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
Belichick thought the rule meant that you could video tape signs as long as you didn't use them "during the playing of a game".

When else would you use them?

As a part of the rest of your videotape analysis. If you know the signal called, you can correlate the defense on the field with the signal called.

And yes, then you use that knowledge in the next game, but as I said, signal stealing has been the norm for years, just without the aid of video taping.

Note that in the case of spygate, the camera's images went no where else other than videotape, whereas in the NO allegation, live audio from the opponent's coach went to NO's booth and could have gone anywhere else from there.
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RE: Could It Get Any Worse For The New Orleans Saints

Wed May 02, 2012 5:52 pm

Punishments:

Scott Fujita 3 games (now with CLE)
Will Smith 4 games
Anthony Hargrove 8 games (now with GB)
Vilma whole 2012 season

Way too light. Every player who took a penny from the pool should be given two games without pay this season. Rumor has it there are 27 such players. It seems 23 of 27 are getting off scot-free.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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