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illinoisman
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President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:47 pm

I just came across this article from about month ago and I couldn't believe the shocking numbers of what people in the Deep South think about President Obama. There was a poll conducted a few days before the Republic Presidential Primaries in Tennessee and Alabama, and the polling asked Republican voters to share their opinions about - get this - President Obama's religion? Yep, we're still there folks.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/mar...rs-in-alabama-mississippi-20120312

"The poll of Mississippi Republicans found that 52% said they believed Obama is a Muslim, 36% weren’t sure and only 12% said they believed he is a Christian. He fared slightly better in Alabama, where 45% said he is a Muslim, 41% weren’t sure, and 14% said he is a Christian."

Only 12-14% believe that he's a Christian?! Really? Are we at a point in Mississippi and Alabama where's its not really what you believe, but its what you want to believe?
 
seb146
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:01 am

Why do we care what religion any politician is? Show me where in the Constitution that every politician HAS to be Christian or that the government endorses Christianity of some sort.

Go ahead.

I'll wait...
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danielmyatt
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:14 am

It is shocking how a community can feel that much hate for a person, and be so wrong about it at the same time without any factual basis whatsoever. I mean our current government is hardly liked in many parts of the country but I doubt many people hate David Cameron, which is more to be said for a previous Tory PM, but that had a base, and it's for a different thread.

Come to think of it, our PM has to be Church of England (Protestant), Tony Blair was Catholic, but converted, then converted back after he left government. I don't think it's that much of a bother nowadays, and obviously as we have an unwritten constitution, we can't write it down. It think it was brought in with Cromwell and his anti Catholic ways, but don't quote me on that.
It seems surprising that a fairly secular country like ours has religious laws regarding our Prime Minister, but a country like the US where religion is deeply ingrained into everyday life doesn't have such a rule in its constitution.
 
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Tugger
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:31 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Thread starter):
Are we at a point in Mississippi and Alabama where's its not really what you believe, but its what you want to believe?

That's always been the case, everywhere. That is why fear is such a good tool, it helps make you believe something is "wrong" even if there is nothing wrong.

Quoting danielmyatt (Reply 3):
hate

This is probably the biggest problem going on in the USA lately. Many people seem to be able to transmute their dislike of something, a person, a political party, anything really, into hatred for that thing. And it is often fed by others around to drive them in a certain direction.

There is simply no reason to hate the President, there was no real reason to hate the previous president or the ones before that. They are just people that have been elected to office, to lead the nation, to do a job. But hate is now becoming a tool to be used just like fear is, and it is being used for things where hate is not deserved.

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DocLightning
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 2):
Why do we care what religion any politician is? Show me where in the Constitution that every politician HAS to be Christian or that the government endorses Christianity of some sort.
Quote:
ARTICLE VI: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

My emphasis added.

I consider these people to be un-American, anti-American, disloyal to the Constitution and the Republic that it defines, and a danger to national security and the security of democracy itself. It's a pity that nothing can be done about it.
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Tugger
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
I consider these people to be un-American, anti-American, disloyal to the Constitution and the Republic that it defines, and a danger to national security and the security of democracy itself. It's a pity that nothing can be done about it.

Now wait, just because they believe one thing does not mean they are applying a religious test to anything when they vote. It is not "un-American" to know what religion a President (or someone vying to be the President). Plain and simple there may be a whole bunch of people that think President Obama is a Muslim but are still voting for him because they are supportive of him, his policies, Democrats, whatever. And if they are voting against him it is just as likely for purely nonreligious reasons.

Believing that the President is Muslim is certainly not something demonstrating intelligence but it is also not demonstrating "un-Americaness".

Tugg
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
Believing that the President is Muslim is certainly not something demonstrating intelligence but it is also not demonstrating "un-Americaness".

Believing that the President is a Muslim and that this makes him unfit for office (which is the implication and let's not pretend it isn't) is to deny the very Constitution itself.

[Edited 2012-04-25 18:32:05]
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seb146
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:27 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
It is not "un-American" to know what religion a President (or someone vying to be the President).

It is not un-American to know what religion a politician practices. However, to vote for a politician, or against a politician, based only on what religion he or she practices is un-American IMHO. I don't care that Romney is Mormon. Not my business. I don't care that Gingrich converted to Catholisism. Not my business. It is not even my business that he is divorced twice and is with wife number three*. However, that matters to some people. Just like the perception that someone went to Harvard makes them an elitist and they must be voted against based soley on that one item.

*The laughable thing about Gingrich is he goes on and on and supports a party that goes on and on about marriage being between one man and one woman only and sees zero irony in all his divorces and philandering.
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DocLightning
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:32 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
I don't care that Romney is Mormon.

I do, but only because he seems to want to make a deal of it. When you use it as a political tool, then it becomes very much a matter of public interest.

Obama rarely speaks about his religion and doesn't use it as a political tool.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
It is not even my business that he is divorced twice and is with wife number three*.

It isn't our business UNTIL he starts talking about making the "sanctity of marriage" a matter of public policy. At that point, his hypocrisy is VERY MUCH our business.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:54 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
Plain and simple there may be a whole bunch of people that think President Obama is a Muslim but are still voting for him because they are supportive of him, his policies, Democrats, whatever. And if they are voting against him it is just as likely for purely nonreligious reasons.

Great, salient point.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Believing that the President is a Muslim and that this makes him unfit for office (which is the implication and let's not pretend it isn't) is to deny the very Constitution itself.

The survey didn't make this extrapolation. Such an interpretation falls far outside the scope of this survey.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
It is not un-American to know what religion a politician practices. However, to vote for a politician, or against a politician, based only on what religion he or she practices is un-American IMHO. I don't care that Romney is Mormon. Not my business. I don't care that Gingrich converted to Catholisism. Not my business. It is not even my business that he is divorced twice and is with wife number three*. However, that matters to some people. Just like the perception that someone went to Harvard makes them an elitist and they must be voted against based soley on that one item.

I don't necessarily find it "un-American." One of the great things about America, in my opinion, is that we are free to vote for or against any political candidate for any reason we might choose...regardless of whether or not someone else might think it silly. We all use our individual brainpower to choose our own personal favored candidate.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
I consider these people to be un-American, anti-American, disloyal to the Constitution and the Republic that it defines, and a danger to national security and the security of democracy itself. I

This seems like a very extreme view. Tolerance and respect for people with differing world views are everyone's responsibility.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
It's a pity that nothing can be done about it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here but it seems nefarious. Are you suggesting we send all Southerners to gulags or something?
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DocLightning
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:44 am

Quoting jbirdav8r (Reply 10):

I'm not sure what you're getting at here but it seems nefarious. Are you suggesting we send all Southerners to gulags or something?

No, it's a pity that politicians fear churches and that the legal system cannot be used to forcibly remove churches from politics. It is what was intended by the first amendment and it has been completely circumvented by Big Money Religion.

Quoting jbirdav8r (Reply 10):
This seems like a very extreme view. Tolerance and respect for people with differing world views are everyone's responsibility.

I have no tolerance for intolerance. I do not have to tolerate someone using someone else's PRIVATE religious beliefs and behaviors as a criterion for employment any more than I have to tolerate people using someone else's race in such a manner.
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BMI727
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Thread starter):
Only 12-14% believe that he's a Christian?! Really? Are we at a point in Mississippi and Alabama where's its not really what you believe, but its what you want to believe?

Does it really matter if stupid rednecks don't vote for him because they think he's a Muslim or because he's black?
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NW747400
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:52 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):

I don't get that from the article. I think it would be reasonable to think that some might not vote for him because they believe he is Muslim but that is entirely different than saying he is unfit for office. Also I don't think it is un-American to vote or not vote for someone based on religion. As an American you have the right to choose who to vote for based on eye color if you so desire. That doesn't mean you should necessarily, but you should have the freedom to vote for or against a candidate based on what in your mind are the most important characteristics of a good leader without being ridiculed as Un-American. On a side note calling someone un-American is an ad hominem that is used by both sides when they don't have a leg to stand on so to speak.

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seb146
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:58 am

Quoting jbirdav8r (Reply 10):
We all use our individual brainpower to choose our own personal favored candidate.

But that's just it: Some people unplug their brains and just start voting.

Quoting jbirdav8r (Reply 10):
Are you suggesting we send all Southerners to gulags or something?

How about removing all religion from politics? Right-wingers hate government regulating every corner of our lives, so why not this?
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting IllinoisMan (Thread starter):
Only 12-14% believe that he's a Christian?! Really? Are we at a point in Mississippi and Alabama where's its not really what you believe, but its what you want to believe?

Exactly who is stunned by this? I'm pretty sure Mississippi and Alabama rank as some of the poorest states in terms of wealth and their educational system. I consider myself a moderate Republican, but unless you have been living in a cave the past 4 years it has been obvious the Republicans in these deep southern states live in some alternate fact free universe. In regards to these polling numbers I think it might be fair to play the race card...
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:38 am

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 13):

I don't get that from the article. I think it would be reasonable to think that some might not vote for him because they believe he is Muslim but that is entirely different than saying he is unfit for office.

Judging someone based on their private religious beliefs is WRONG.

This would come out very differently if people thought he were secretly a Jew. But it's OK to rag on Muslims these days. That sort of vilification leads to holocausts and "ethnic cleansings" and I do not have to tolerate it.
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ltbewr
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:37 am

Those with beliefs that President Obama is not a Christian but a Muslim, are almost always white suggesting that racism is more of a factor but using faith beliefs as a cover.
 
windy95
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:12 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Quote:ARTICLE VI: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

You misunderstand or intentionally misapply the intent of this. Article VI does not apply to the states or to the people. It applies to the federal government so that they shall not literally apply a "test" or "oath" to run for office.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Believing that the President is a Muslim and that this makes him unfit for office (which is the implication and let's not pretend it isn't) is to deny the very Constitution itself.

Wrong again. As a citizen there is nothing that we cannot apply when it comes to our vote.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
No, it's a pity that politicians fear churches and that the legal system cannot be used to forcibly remove churches from politics. It is what was intended by the first amendment and it has been completely circumvented by Big Money Religion.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Judging someone based on their private religious beliefs is WRONG.

Why? It can go along way in telling what they might do in office. There where plenty who judged Bush on his beliefs. What about all the rabid rantings against Santorum? Religious Tests?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I have no tolerance for intolerance
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
and I do not have to tolerate it.

Which makes you the same as the very people you are railing against.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:14 pm

Quoting jbirdav8r (Reply 9):
I don't necessarily find it "un-American." One of the great things about America, in my opinion, is that we are free to vote for or against any political candidate for any reason we might choose...regardless of whether or not someone else might think it silly. We all use our individual brainpower to choose our own personal favored candidate.

The problem is that ever since 9/11 anyone who is not white and doesn't have an American surname is considered suspicious. And unless that person ranks with the GOP, then that person is often unfit to even be American. To this day, the birther movement is still active even after Hawaii released his birth certificate. Not only that, since he has the middle name "Hussein" and a last name "Obama" (which people quickly assume it means Muslim from Africa), they think he's sympathetic with terrorists and/or linked with them.

Every time I travel to the states, specifically Southern states, I go with my passport. It is the only way I can prove my citizenship. Having Spanish surnames, I sometimes think I might be detained for being "an illegal immigrant". I'm not white, not born/raised in the states, and I'm not your typical Christian either.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Does it really matter if stupid rednecks don't vote for him because they think he's a Muslim or because he's black?

It does. That's discrimination. Their only loophole is that absolutely no one will know where they put the X on the ballot (if they put it). The vote (for an incumbent president) has to be solely based on:
1. The job he's done so far
2. If he does not share most of your ideals

And you want to know what the ironic part is? These people yell foul if you call them rednecks on the grounds that that is racist.

People here need to learn how to vote. Being a Democrat, if I could vote, I would judge both candidates and would be willing to cross party lines if the opponent does a better job of convincing me. Right now, Romney WAS likable at first, but ever since he's gone WAY down. Do I care if he's Mormon? No. As long as his religion doesn't dictate my way of life, I couldn't care less if he was Muslim, atheist, Buddhist, etc. But if I thought he was the better candidate (in every aspect), why shouldn't I give Romney my vote?
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StarAC17
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:29 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
Why do we care what religion any politician is? Show me where in the Constitution that every politician HAS to be Christian or that the government endorses Christianity of some sort.

Most of them have been, and its a Toss up on whether that streak ends in November.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Believing that the President is a Muslim and that this makes him unfit for office (which is the implication and let's not pretend it isn't) is to deny the very Constitution itself.

First of all these people are idiots and I bet they couldn't find their state on a map of the US.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
It is not un-American to know what religion a politician practices. However, to vote for a politician, or against a politician, based only on what religion he or she practices is un-American IMHO.

It's done though as Windy95 said it can be used against you by voters and it was a big reason Bush got re-elected in 2004 as he made gay marriage a huge issue (that wasn't the only reason but it was one them). I would bet that if Chris Christie ran and no doubt would be a solid GOP candidate, his weight would hurt him with voters. It's a sad fact about humans is that we are shallow and subconsciously like attractive people more.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Obama rarely speaks about his religion and doesn't use it as a political tool.

He keeps his mouth shut because I bet he thinks the whole thing is a piece on nonsense, He probably is the first atheist president he will just never admit it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Does it really matter if stupid rednecks don't vote for him because they think he's a Muslim or because he's black?

Lets be real its because he is black that these people don't like him, now that's not why everyone doesn't like him. People in these state know that saying you don't like black people is not good so they just make another excuse to not like him.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
Right now, Romney WAS likable at first, but ever since he's gone WAY down. Do I care if he's Mormon?

I actually think Romney would govern pretty well on how he thinks and he is centre right initially. However what I fear and think will happen is he will be a puppet a much more right wing congress than he is.

The same cannot be said about Obama he (probably to his detriment) was to eager to compromise and probably could have been Nancy Pelosi's puppet a bit more as it would have lead to more centrist compromises which is where most people are.
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fr8mech
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:20 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
I consider these people to be un-American, anti-American, disloyal to the Constitution and the Republic that it defines, and a danger to national security and the security of democracy itself. It's a pity that nothing can be done about it.

Doc, you need to remember that the Constitution restrains the government. It does not restrain the people. Folks can, and will, use a religious test when voting for someone. It's that simple. I don't see it any different than voting for someone who is pro-abortion vs. someone who is pro-life. You are voting for someone whose beliefs, political and non-political, are closest to yours.

As for me, I could give a rat's ass if the guy worships mice from Mars; if his political beliefs are aligned with mine, he may get my vote. And, to be clear, Obama will not get my vote because his political beliefs are nowhere near mine and Romney will get my vote because his politically beliefs closely match mine.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I do, but only because he seems to want to make a deal of it.

The media and the Democratic Party are making a big deal about it. He responds. My guess is that he'd be just as happy not talking about it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I have no tolerance for intolerance.

So, you are intolerant.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
The problem is that ever since 9/11 anyone who is not white and doesn't have an American surname is considered suspicious.

And, that's why Barack Obama got elected??? Because we are suspicious of foreign sounding names?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
It does. That's discrimination

You do realize everyone discriminates when they vote. We discriminate based on political beliefs. Some discriminate on religion, and yes, some discriminate on race. But, it is the right of the elector to discriminate based on whatever factor he wants, whether it's rational or not. They say Kennedy won because he was better on camera than Nixon.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):
Most of them have been, and its a Toss up on whether that streak ends in November.

So, which one do you think is not a Christian?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):
Lets be real its because he is black that these people don't like him, now that's not why everyone doesn't like him.

Why is it that folks can not accept the fact that the dislike of Mr. Obama is largely based on his policies and not on his race? Yes, there are some folks out there that vote with eyes and not their heads...but they are in the minority...otherwise Mr. Obama would not have been elected in the first place.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
The problem is that ever since 9/11 anyone who is not white and doesn't have an American surname is considered suspicious.

And, that's why Barack Obama got elected??? Because we are suspicious of foreign sounding names?

No. He won because 8 years of Republican leadership were more than enough and he offered an alternative. Had the 8 years the GOP was in power were good years (as in good economic growth, unemployment less than 4%, etc.) , you can bet McCain would have won the elections or at least narrow the gap from Obama's 365 electoral votes. But Obama's candidacy has never been without controversy and up to this day people still believe in that. It took Hawaii's release of his long-form birth certificate to convince many that he was a natural born US citizen with Kenyan ancestry.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
It does. That's discrimination

You do realize everyone discriminates when they vote. We discriminate based on political beliefs.

And that's why we vote (emphasis added). But to vote based on religious beliefs or race is plain wrong. Race and religion doesn't define a person's ability to lead effectively (as long as he doesn't use race or religion as an excuse for his policies). Obama might be African American, but he has not governed solely for that community. He's a Christian and yet he has demonstrated tolerance for those who don't share his beliefs. The GOP today has yet to prove that to me and the poll released confirms that people still harbor a hatred (or at least resent) having a leader that is:
1. Not white
2. Of Kenyan ancestry
3. Tolerant of other beliefs and willing to separate religious beliefs from the government.

I wonder, had Obama been named Steve Michael Obama, would people think he's Muslim?
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ronglimeng
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:45 pm

Quoting danielmyatt (Reply 2):
... to think of it, our PM has to be Church of England (Protestant)

I believe you are wrong there, it is the Monarch who has to be C of E (Defender of the Faith, etc,etc). This latter has implications for Canada as indirectly our Head of State thus has to be C of E too.

All this talk of politicians' religion is mostly eyewash. A really religious person probably wouldn't bother with politics, they'd probably be insufferable if they did anyway. I think most politicians pack religion as part of their image just as they do the attractive, supportive wife and 2 children.

As long as a politician doesn't get too gungho about his "faith", he shouldn't have too much trouble with the electorate.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:30 pm

But who really knows for sure he's not a closet muslim, his father was and he did go to school in Indonesia, both those facts are pretty good pointers for folks who believe Obama is muslim. Lets face facts if he was a practicing muslim there is no way in hell he would get elected.
 
NW747400
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
Why? It can go along way in telling what they might do in office. There where plenty who judged Bush on his beliefs. What about all the rabid rantings against Santorum? Religious Tests?

Absolutely. A person's religious beliefs can say a lot about what values they hold most dear. Because of this a person's religion CAN say something about how they would govern and conduct themselves in office. I'm supposed to vote for who best represents me and someone who is the same religion as I am more times than not represents my beliefs better than someone of a different religion. I'm not saying I would never vote for someone of a different religion or that religion should necessarily be the deciding factor, but I am saying that pretending that a person's religion has no effect on how they govern is naive.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):
He keeps his mouth shut because I bet he thinks the whole thing is a piece on nonsense, He probably is the first atheist president he will just never admit it.

That is what I think. I think he is an atheist/agnostic but he knows that he could never get elected if he acknowledged that fact.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
So, you are intolerant.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw the irony in that statement!

NW747400
 
Rara
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:46 pm

Quoting IllinoisMan (Thread starter):

Only 12-14% believe that he's a Christian?! Really? Are we at a point in Mississippi and Alabama where's its not really what you believe, but its what you want to believe?

There's a silver lining about that news.   It implies that a Muslim president in America may not be as far off the line as people may think.

You'd think that it would be all but impossible for a Muslim to be elected president in America, right? Because the voters would never accept it? Well for 90% of the people in the poll, this scenario is already reality.   For all intents and purposes, they already live in a United States with a Muslim president - and the world hasn't ended, they still go about their daily lifes and bicker not much more than usually. Good news for religious tolerance in America, eh?  
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windy95
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:37 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
even after Hawaii released his birth certificate
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 21):
took Hawaii's release of his long-form birth certificate to convince many

Sorry but that never happened. Hawaii did not release the original long form. Obama released a alleged copy of it.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):
Lets be real its because he is black that these people don't like him, now that's not why everyone doesn't like him. People in these state know that saying you don't like black people is not good so they just make another excuse to not like him.

Let's be real you have no clue to what you are talking about and are just using the usual leftist race baiting talking point. Why did white people not like the Clinton's? Why would I never vote for any leftist? Suggesting that it is skin color and not the politics is pure BS politics or ignorance.
 
fr8mech
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:42 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 21):
He won because 8 years of Republican leadership were more than enough and he offered an alternative.

That is why the other party normally gets elected. The people are fed up with the party or person currently in office. But, that doesn't square with the narrative, does it? The conventional wisdom says that Americans, especially those in the deep south are racists and xenophobes, yet Obama was still elected with a resounding majority. My point is that Mr. Obama couldn't have been elected without capturing a large percentage of those who currently being called racists.

Quoting Rara (Reply 25):

I like your perspective.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 21):
Obama might be African American, but he has not governed solely for that community.

I'll argue that the entire Democratic Party has failed to govern in a way that supports that community. But, that's a different thread.


Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 21):
It took Hawaii's release of his long-form birth certificate to convince many that he was a natural born US citizen with Kenyan ancestry.

I'm waiting to see which major news outlet starts running stories about folks who believe that he was born abroad. I'm guessing we'll see the stories pop up around the convention and then really start pouring in during October.
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seb146
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:05 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 26):
Obama released a alleged copy of it.

And, according to Snopes, it is real.

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 14):
I'm pretty sure Mississippi and Alabama rank as some of the poorest states in terms of wealth and their educational system.

Their private education system is great. This is the problem come November: The right wants to privatized everything. Like schools. Those of us that can not afford private schools will end up with educations similar or worse than those of Mississippi and Alabama.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
It applies to the federal government so that they shall not literally apply a "test" or "oath" to run for office.

So, why does it matter for Obama and Romney what religion they practice?
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aloges
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 26):
Why would I never vote for any leftist?

That's because there aren't any actual "leftists" in the running, or none with any hopes of getting more than maybe 1% of the vote.  
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bjorn14
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):
Lets be real its because he is black that these people don't like him,

No, they just believe Øbama is a lying about his religion. I actually like his black African half, it's the white European socialist half I can't stand.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):

And, according to Snopes, it is real.

When the USSC get's the original then I'll believe it.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
But who really knows for sure he's not a closet muslim, his father was and he did go to school in Indonesia, both those facts are pretty good pointers for folks who believe Obama is muslim.

Some who knew him in Indonesian said he was a studying fool (ages 6-10) when it came to the Koran.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
aloges
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:49 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
When the USSC get's the original then I'll believe it.

First, the birthers demanded the birth certificate, then they demanded a different form of it, now you demand an examination by the Supreme Court. Do you really think that anyone with the authority to stop Obama's bid for the presidency wouldn't have done so if any of the doubts were based on facts?
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fr8mech
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
Some who knew him in Indonesian said he was a studying fool (ages 6-10) when it came to the Koran.

So. I studied The Bible, and at best, I'm a non-practicing, Catholic Church (because the kids are in the school) going, Greek Orthodox Christian. In other words, the Bible study I dealt with (and endured) did not make me a Bible thumping Christian.

I've also read The Koran (Quoran?). Does that make me a closet Muslim?
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einsteinboricua
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
When the USSC get's the original then I'll believe it.

First, the birthers demanded the birth certificate, then they demanded a different form of it, now you demand an examination by the Supreme Court. Do you really think that anyone with the authority to stop Obama's bid for the presidency wouldn't have done so if any of the doubts were based on facts?

They want a holy sign that says the certificate is real. They're most likely waiting for an angel to drop from the sky bearing a message from God confirming or denying the authenticity, and even then that might not be enough.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
Some who knew him in Indonesian said he was a studying fool (ages 6-10) when it came to the Koran.

So. I studied The Bible, and at best, I'm a non-practicing, Catholic Church (because the kids are in the school) going, Greek Orthodox Christian. In other words, the Bible study I dealt with (and endured) did not make me a Bible thumping Christian.

I've also read The Koran (Quoran?). Does that make me a closet Muslim?

GASP! I'm a closet Muslim too...and a closet Jew...and a closet Buddhist...and a closet Hinduist...and a closet Wiccan...
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aloges
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 33):
They're most likely waiting for an angel to drop from the sky bearing a message from God confirming or denying the authenticity, and even then that might not be enough.

Well, the things I read about Jesus in the Bible don't exactly adhere to Republican standards - turn the other cheek vs. castle laws, for example. So any such angel would of course be of doubtful provenance.  

[Edited 2012-04-26 10:18:48]
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Ken777
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:43 pm

You're taling about Mississippi. Anything is possible there, especially when discussing people of color.

And, let's face it, the Bubba Factor that fills Mississippi and other Southern states will never go away. Sort of like their family trees not forking.

Quoting danielmyatt (Reply 2):
It is shocking how a community can feel that much hate for a person, and be so wrong about it at the same time without any factual basis whatsoever.

White Bubbas in the South are so ingrained in hate that I'm past being shocked by them. Just look at the KKK and the history of hate

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
This is probably the biggest problem going on in the USA lately.

Hate plus the explosive growth of gun "ownership" in the country. We are moving to an environment of open carry - just like people did back of the days of Cowboys & Indians. "Strapping on leather". How long before people want to see who is the fastest draw in town? And how easy is it going to be for hot hots like Zimmerman to strap on leather and go out to "protect" the neighborhood?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 26):
Obama released a alleged copy of it.

Oooops! You're sounding like a Birther.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 26):
Why would I never vote for any leftist?

A "leftist"? Just like the other side of the political coin the definition of "leftist programs" change over time.

Years ago Huey Long in Louisiana got the conservatives going into horrid spasms with a horrid leftist program he was bringing in.

The program that so enraged the right?

Free textbooks in high schools.

So maybe one day you will vote for someone who is not hard right because you believe they are the better choice.

Boy, that is a real leftist/communists program that can destroy the country.  
 
aloges
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:04 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 35):
Boy, that is a real leftist/communists program that can destroy the country.

Just take Planned Parenthood as an example. The three to four hundred millions that it receives from the government are a "funding issue" to republicans - yet they vehemently oppose so-called millionnaire taxes which would bring in billions because they are allegedly not even worth the effort.
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DocLightning
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):

When the USSC get's the original then I'll believe it.

They did. In 2008. And they cleared it. His mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of his birth, so whether he was born in Hawaii, Memphis, Tora Bora, or Olympus Mons on Mars, he's American.

And that is a FACT. A fact is something that is not subject to debate.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
So, you are intolerant.

If that's intolerance, then damn right. And I'd never hurt anyone, but if you punch me in the face, I'll kick your butt. Does that make me violent? If so, then damn right.

I don't have to "tolerate" racism, homophobia, or other forms of intolerance. I also don't have to "tolerate" the KKK or the Nazi Party. If that makes me "intolerant," then so be it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
You do realize everyone discriminates when they vote. We discriminate based on political beliefs.

No. Political beliefs are a chosen behavior. That is not "discrimination." Public religious behavior is chosen. The accusations that he is a "Muslim" are similar to the Nazi use of "Jew." It is something that cannot be erased by any religious conversion any more than a Jew converting to Christianity in Nazi Germany would have spared him from the gas chambers. To the people accusing him of being a "Muslim," it is an inherent property of his identity. I guarantee you that precisely 0.0% of people accusing him of being "Muslim" would change their opinion if he publicly converted to Catholocism.

In those cases, it is most certainly "prejudice."
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aloges
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
So, you are intolerant.
Quoting NW747400 (Reply 24):
I'm glad I'm not the only one that saw the irony in that statement!

There is no irony in intolerance towards the intolerant.

Quoting Karl Popper:
If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

If you don't fight intolerance and refute those who teach it, you will lose your freedom.
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BMI727
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:45 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 14):
I'm pretty sure Mississippi and Alabama rank as some of the poorest states in terms of wealth and their educational system.

It's no surprise at all. It seems like every other week there is another study showing that Southerners are poor and stupid.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
How about removing all religion from politics? Right-wingers hate government regulating every corner of our lives, so why not this?

You can't suggest telling people what they can and cannot consider when voting. Part of having freedom is having the freedom to be a dumbass.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):
People in these state know that saying you don't like black people is not good so they just make another excuse to not like him.

The number of Confederate flags they fly tends to say otherwise. Muslims are a more acceptable target, but being racist isn't too big of a deal down there.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
2. If he does not share most of your ideals

What if your ideals are largely based on your religion?
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seb146
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
You can't suggest telling people what they can and cannot consider when voting.

No, but making it an issue for political debate is another story. If people want to vote a strict Catholic ticket, fine. I think that is stupid, but whatever. When candidates and/or their supporters start screaming "That candiate is worthless because s/he is *fill in the sect*" is wrong, IMO.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
His mother was a U.S. citizen at the time of his birth, so whether he was born in Hawaii, Memphis, Tora Bora, or Olympus Mons on Mars, he's American.

Notice that when this argument is made about McCain, not a peep out of the right. He was born on Panamanian soil. To an American mother.

cue crickets from the right...
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fr8mech
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
I don't have to "tolerate" racism, homophobia, or other forms of intolerance. I also don't have to "tolerate" the KKK or the Nazi Party. If that makes me "intolerant," then so be it.

No, neither you nor I have to tolerate these behaviours. But, we do have to tolerate their right to exist and spew their hate. That is the country we live in.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 37):
No. Political beliefs are a chosen behavior. That is not "discrimination."

Of course it's discrimination. If I refuse to vote for a 2nd Amendment advocate because of his stance on the 2nd Amendment, I am discriminating against him (and his ilk).
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aloges
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:33 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 41):
But, we do have to tolerate their right to exist and spew their hate.

You may have to tolerate their right, but you certainly don't have to tolerate their actions - it is well within your rights to refute them, expose their lies and decry their hatred at every step.
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Mir
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:56 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
You misunderstand or intentionally misapply the intent of this. Article VI does not apply to the states or to the people.

It certainly does.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

Emphasis is mine. How can you interpret that as not applying to the states when the states are specifically mentioned?

And the Constitution doesn't apply to the people - it only applies to how the federal and state governments may or may not operate.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 17):
It applies to the federal government so that they shall not literally apply a "test" or "oath" to run for office.

Read it again. It explicitly states that there shall be an oath applied to those who hold office. And as far as a literal test being applied, you couldn't be more wrong. It's not talking about getting out a pencil and paper and answering questions to determine how much about a particular religion they know.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
Doc, you need to remember that the Constitution restrains the government. It does not restrain the people. Folks can, and will, use a religious test when voting for someone.

They can, but it is clearly against the spirit of the Constitution to do so, and deserves to be called out as such.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
The conventional wisdom says that Americans, especially those in the deep south are racists and xenophobes, yet Obama was still elected with a resounding majority. My point is that Mr. Obama couldn't have been elected without capturing a large percentage of those who currently being called racists.

Because of the electoral college system, you can't really make that claim. Obama didn't win any of the deep south states. So whatever support he had there was electorally irrelevant.

-Mir
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NW747400
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 42):

That's fine. You are well within your rights to do that just don't feed me a bunch of BS about how tolerant and open minded you are. You are only tolerant and open minded of view points that you deem acceptable. On a side note I took a logic and reasoning course four semesters back and the professor seemed to take joy in exposing the logical fallacy behind claiming to be tolerant while in actuality being what he called "selectively tolerant."

NW747400
 
Mir
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 44):
You are well within your rights to do that just don't feed me a bunch of BS about how tolerant and open minded you are.

Nothing Aloges said implied any intolerance whatsoever. Tolerance does not mean agreement.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting NW747400 (Reply 44):
You are only tolerant and open minded of view points that you deem acceptable.

No surprise. Here is a Pew Research report from last month that shows that Liberals (who call themselves tolerant and conservatives as intolerant) are actually far more intolerant of opinions different from their own, at least on social networking sites (see graph on page 6)

http://www.pewinternet.org/~/media//...orts/2012/PIP_SNS_and_politics.pdf
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StarAC17
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
Why is it that folks can not accept the fact that the dislike of Mr. Obama is largely based on his policies and not on his race? Yes, there are some folks out there that vote with eyes and not their heads...but they are in the minority...otherwise Mr. Obama would not have been elected in the first place.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
So, which one do you think is not a Christian?

I think Obama is a secret non-believer and padering to make everyone believe otherwise.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 26):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):
Lets be real its because he is black that these people don't like him, now that's not why everyone doesn't like him. People in these state know that saying you don't like black people is not good so they just make another excuse to not like him.

Let's be real you have no clue to what you are talking about and are just using the usual leftist race baiting talking point. Why did white people not like the Clinton's? Why would I never vote for any leftist? Suggesting that it is skin color and not the politics is pure BS politics or ignorance.

I'm not saying there are not people who dislike Obama because of his policies but if you do then blatantly state that. When you say you don't like him because he is a Muslim then that is a form of prejudice.

I think that a good portion of the people in the states mention claim he is a Muslim for no rational reason and I may be speculating but I think that has something to do with skin colour. Other presidents have been hated this one has received 400 times more threats against him, that is more than just having bad policies.
There is something motivating the hatred of him more than previous presidents and I think that is his skin colour.

link below.
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo...erwhelmed-by-increased-threats.php
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Mir
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:15 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 47):
I think that a good portion of the people in the states mention claim he is a Muslim for no rational reason and I may be speculating but I think that has something to do with skin colour.

I'd tend to agree, but in a sort of roundabout way. It's a lot easier to be seen disliking someone because they're a Muslim than it is to be seen disliking someone because they're black these days. After all, Muslims aren't a race, so you're not being racist, and there is a recent history of Muslims doing harm to the country.

So if you're one of those people looking for an irrational reason to really hate Obama, the "fact" that he's a Muslim works pretty damn well.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
NW747400
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RE: President Obama's Religion & The Deep South

Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):

I did not mean to say Aloges was intolerant I was referring to Doc's reply in which he admits to being intolerant. Also I am not claiming to have a problem with intolerance (for example I don't tolerate racism). I just wanted to expose the fallacy behind claiming to be "tolerant" while in reality just tolerating that with which you agree. I for one don't have a problem with intolerance (again I don't tolerate racism) what I do have a problem with is people who have a superiority complex based on their own perceived level of "tolerance" when in fact they do not tolerate any viewpoints they deem unacceptable. I have had many a discussions in which I have been told that what I believe cannot be tolerated because it is not tolerant enough. They then immediately take an arrogant tone bragging about how tolerant they are when in reality they just said my viewpoint should not be tolerated. If you're intolerant that's fine all that I ask is that you be honest about it and give up claiming some moral high ground based on your "tolerance."

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