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CrimsonNL
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London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:53 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17884897

Couldn't believe my eyes when I read this, IMO an utterly crazy, ridiculous and dangerous idea! My knowledge of SAM missiles is limited, but one would think this could pose a risk to "Friendly" air traffic over the London area as well, as no civil planes are identified by an IFF (Identify Friend of Foe) transponder.

Personally I think this is just an overreaction to the ever present threat of terror, and will only give people a false sense of safety. I can hardly believe that any sane person would support this.

What are your thoughts?

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MD11Engineer
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:13 pm

After a nutter crashed a microlight on the lawn outside the Reichstag (Germany´s parliament building in Berlin) after he had killed his wife, politicians demanded to basing of SAMs around Berlin´s government quarter. A Bundeswehr general had to explain to them that anything fired into the air will eventually come down again, even if it doesn´t hit a target and that it wouldn´t be a good idea to launch Hawk missiles in the middle of a big city. He also pointed out that shooting down an aircraft, just to have it crash into a residential area would not be a good idea.
The demand was quietly binned.
In any case, it was embarrasing to see how far some politicians would go to risk the lives of the population to save their own skin.

Jan
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dazbo5
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?


Exactly the same as yours! If they put them on the top of residential flats, I would have thought that then makes those flats, and therefore their residents a potential terrorist target too. I wouldn't be best pleased if that was where I lived. Even with SAM's 'protecting' the sky over London, are they really going to shoot down an aircraft over a densely populated area? I know an aircraft flying in to a stadium or other building is going to do untold damage and doesn't bear thinking about, but imagine the loss of life on the ground with aircraft debris and aviation fuel coming down on top. I can understand using them as a deterrent, but to publically announce their intention to put them on the top of residential flats is crazy in my eyes. I'm sure there are non-residential buildings that can be used if it's a must but even then, it's a complete over-reaction.

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yfbflyer
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:18 pm

Just another crazy BS over reaction to some virtually non existent threat. How long has the UK had their terror threat as severe?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:32 pm

Who's the idiot who made it public? They should have installed the missiles if it was felt to be necessary, and shut up about it.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
My knowledge of SAM missiles is limited, but one would think this could pose a risk to "Friendly" air traffic over the London area as well, as no civil planes are identified by an IFF (Identify Friend of Foe) transponder.

Don't worry about it. SAM missiles have been around for over half a century, including close coverage of airports and cities, and have never been responsible for blowing civilian flights out of the sky.

It's pretty hard to imagine a terrorist scenario where those missiles might come into play, but I can think of a couple, as unlikely as they might be.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Who's the idiot who made it public? They should have installed the missiles if it was felt to be necessary, and shut up about it.

This might be possible with a man portable weapon like a Stinger missile or a Blowpipe, but e.g. a Hawk missile battery in a park is bl**dy obvious.

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L410Turbolet
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:36 pm

The 5th column on the ground in Londonistan which hates its nominal "home country" is far bigger threat to the Games than any potential airborne threat.

 
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Dreadnought
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):

This might be possible with a man portable weapon like a Stinger missile or a Blowpipe, but e.g. a Hawk missile battery in a park is bl**dy obvious.

Pretty close. The Starstreak HVM is a little bigger than a Stinger, but a far cry from an old Hawk battery(which dates back to the 50s as I recall - does anyone still use Hawks?)

Note the range info in the article. This is a last-ditch point defence option, if, for example, terrorists fly an old 707 freighter filled with explosives and manage to evade air defences further away and want to crash it into a stadium filled with 100,000 people. Sure, a scenario that likely is confined to Hollywood, but the same was said about the tactics used on 9/11. The chances of this battery actually firing are probably 0.000000001%.
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:09 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Note the range info in the article. This is a last-ditch point defence option, if, for example, terrorists fly an old 707 freighter filled with explosives and manage to evade air defences further away and want to crash it into a stadium filled with 100,000 people. Sure, a scenario that likely is confined to Hollywood, but the same was said about the tactics used on 9/11. The chances of this battery actually firing are probably 0.000000001%.

Then the 707 will crash right into the middle of a densily populated residential or business area. same results.
The only difference is that the politicians sitting in the stadium will get away.

You are correct, the Bundeswehr retired the system about 5 years ago. The British used to have the Rapier missiles, but I don´t know if they still use them.

Jan
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
SAM missiles have been around for over half a century, including close coverage of airports and cities, and have never been responsible for blowing civilian flights out of the sky.

I think a certain Iran Air A300 would disagrree with you... and in a more likely scenario of a small aircraft (e.g., a Cessna) flying around laden with explosives doubt a SAM would do much.
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
You are correct, the Bundeswehr retired the system about 5 years ago. The British used to have the Rapier missiles, but I don´t know if they still use them.

Yes we will have the Rapier missiles in service until around 2020.
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:24 pm

From what I understand, the Norwegian army deployed the NASAMS (Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System) missile system around Oslo, when US president Obama visited Oslo. Same system that guards the Whitehouse in Washington DC for some 11 years now ...:

NASAMS I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASAMS

NASAMS II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASAMS_II
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:29 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
Then the 707 will crash right into the middle of a densily populated residential or business area. same results.

Are you sure? A plane crashing into a stadium - 50-100K dead. A plane crashing into a neighborhood is pretty horrific as well, but the population is more spread out - a few hundred dead. Sure it would be a Pyrrhic victory, but can you blame those in charge of Olympic security from at least giving themselves the option?
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
Then the 707 will crash right into the middle of a densily populated residential or business area. same results.

Are you sure? A plane crashing into a stadium - 50-100K dead. A plane crashing into a neighborhood is pretty horrific as well, but the population is more spread out - a few hundred dead. Sure it would be a Pyrrhic victory, but can you blame those in charge of Olympic security from at least giving themselves the option?

Not something that will go down particularly with the local residents though!

On the other hand there could be an interesting legal argument if the building owners object to the government plans,
 
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:23 pm

I wonder who they think might pull such an attack off?

Don't say "AQ." AQ is, for all intents and purposes, gone. So who else is big enough and well-organized enough to pull off an air attack on the Olympics?
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:38 pm

Quoting yfbflyer (Reply 3):
Just another crazy BS over reaction to some virtually non existent threat.

Yeah cos there's never been any trouble at the Olympics, right? For your edification:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre
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CrimsonNL
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
Yeah cos there's never been any trouble at the Olympics, right? For your edification:

Come on, you can't possibly use that as an argument! That happened 40 years ago!
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:46 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 16):
Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
Yeah cos there's never been any trouble at the Olympics, right? For your edification:

Come on, you can't possibly use that as an argument! That happened 40 years ago!

And even then you had the very experienced 22nd SAS, who wouldn´t have bungled the hostage rescue like the totally inept Bavarian state police did then. The event led to the founding of the GSG 9, which was trained mainly by instructors from the 22nd SAS.

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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:25 pm

Instead of parking a missile team on a block of flats in London, why can't they park one of those new type 45 destroyers in the Thames estuary?

The navy keep bleating on about how good it is, with a powerful radar that can detect a flea leaving a dogs backside from 500miles away(OK not quite that good, but you get the point), and the most advanced air defence destroyer ever built and how it can take out multiple targets.
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
Yeah cos there's never been any trouble at the Olympics, right? For your edification:

Do tell: What good would a battery of SAMs have done in 1972? Shot down the helicopter with the hostages in it?
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Dreadnought
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):

Instead of parking a missile team on a block of flats in London, why can't they park one of those new type 45 destroyers in the Thames estuary?

Good point. Maybe it's a line-of-sight issue.

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
Do tell: What good would a battery of SAMs have done in 1972? Shot down the helicopter with the hostages in it?

Welcome to the modern world. Terrorists are much less interested in hostages than in simply killing as many people as possible.

[Edited 2012-04-29 10:32:28]
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Welcome to the modern world. Terrorists are much less interested in hostages than in simply killing as many people as possible.

They don't have to. When the mere possibility that something like this could happen exists, absurd sums of money and abuses of basic rights are committed to ensure that it is marginally less likely. Why do the terrorists have to go to the bother and trouble of coordinating and executing another attack? They haven't done any since London 2005 and since the killing of Bin Laden (and the resultant intelligence we got from the compound) they are essentially neutralized.

Mind you, they will pop back up if left alone, but at this point they are incapable of pulling something like that off.

But our governments and many of our people are all very scared, and when you have scared people, stuff like this happens.
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):
The navy keep bleating on about how good it is, with a powerful radar that can detect a flea leaving a dogs backside from 500miles away(OK not quite that good, but you get the point), and the most advanced air defence destroyer ever built and how it can take out multiple targets.

Can you imagine what powering up the SAMPSON radar on one of those would do to ATC? And much more besides in the electronic spectrum?
It's designed to defend ships at sea against complex airborne threats.
Whereas Star-streak is a close range, last ditch air defence system with a minimal electronic footprint.
So which is more suitable as a very last ditch airborne based attack on London. If, a very big if, anything got past the Typhoons.

It does sound all a bit much I know, however previous large security nightmare events since Sept 11th 2001 have employed fighters and SAM's to cover built up areas, this is not a UK thing at all.

2012 is a massive global event, as stated terrorists have not had a 'spectacular' at an Olympics since 1972. They've not been able to. Not through a new found respect of the Olympic ideals.
But terrorism does not stand still, it evolves.
So while a repeat '9/11' style attack seems most unlikely, we have seen since that they are still obsessed with aviation as a means of delivering attacks.

Airliners are much more secure now, what if some wealthy but covert backer of Islamic fundamentalists, say in a rich Gulf state, bought a biz jet in the UK, doesn't have to be new.
He even provided his own pilots.
Won't be a blast like a 757 or 767, still, a high speed dive on to the opening or closing ceremonies would be a 'spectacular'.
 
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par13del
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:25 pm

My take when I first saw the article last night was of a western nation deploying combat missiles in a residential / civilian area. The threads on conflict in the middle east of civilians being hurt when return fire is directed at launchers in civilian area's are legendary.
Yes there is no war or pseudo war taking place in the UK other than the war with Al Q*****, so if terrorist decide that they have to attack a SAM site to assist their other air attack civilians hurt are regarded as what by the government?

However, I still think no one really has yet answered the question and all hope it will never happen, but is there someone assigned who will give the order to launch on a hijacked civilian airline already over London on the way towards an Olympic site? Everyone likes to think the time will be there to consult the proper chain of command which goes up to the Prime Minister / President. Now we get a better idea of why the silly rules were put in place for all being seated and no lavs a specific time before landing.
 
ltbewr
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:25 pm

The problem is that politicians need to have very public displays of force to make them look like they are doing something to protect the country to get re-elected. They also buy into a belief that blatantly obvious displays of force will act as a deterrent to a major attack. What if there had been missiles in and around NY City and DC and used on 9/11/01, shooting those a/c before they hit the towers/Pentagon/Pennsylvania, especially after the first attack into the WTC towers? There were 'Nike' missiles surrounding our cities in case the Soviets attacked, where I live in NJ near a major aircraft engine plant during WW II was where military guns were placed to protect it They were never needed to be uses, but it many the locals feel a lot better.

The better answer would be to find ways to take away the hate toward the UK, USA and other countries that give motivation for terror acts.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting yfbflyer (Reply 3):
Just another crazy BS over reaction to some virtually non existent threat. How long has the UK had their terror threat as severe?

The current state is "Substantial" for Great Britain

In Northern Ireland, the threat level is "Severe"

according to the Home office, there are 47 international terrorist organisations proscribed under the terrorism act 2000

17 November Revolutionary Organisation (N17)
Abu Nidal Organisation (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf group
Al-Gama'at al-Islamiya
Al Ghurabaa
Al Ittihad Al Islamia
Al Qa'ida
Al Shabaab
Ansar Al Sunna
Armed Islamic Group
Asbat Al Ansar
Babbar Khalsa
Basque Homeland and Liberty
Baluchistan Liberation Army
Eqyptian Islamic Jihad
Groupe Islamique Combattant Marocain
Hamas Izz al Din al-Qassem Brigades
Harakat-Ul-Jihad-Ul-Islami
Harakat-Ul-Jihad-Ul-Islami (Bangladesh) (Huji-B)
Harakat-Ul-Mujahideen/Alami
Harakat Mujahideen
Hizbollah Millitary Wing
Hezb-E Islami Gulbuddin
International Sikh youth federation
Islamic Army of Aden
Islamic Jihad Union
Islamic movement of Uzbekistan
Jaish e Mohammed
Jammat-ul Mujahideen Bangladesh
Jeemah Islamiyah
Khuddam Ul-Islam
Kongra Gele Kurdistan
Lashkar e Tayyaba
Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam
Libya Islamic Fighting group
Palestinian Islamic Jihad - Shaqiqi
Revolutionary peoples' liberation party - front
Salafist Group for Call and Combat
Saved Sect or Saviour Sect
Sipah-E Sahaba Pakistan
Tehrik Nefaz-eShari'at Muhammadi
Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan
Teyre Azadiye Kurdistan
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aloges
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:32 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 22):
what if some wealthy but covert backer of Islamic fundamentalists, say in a rich Gulf state, bought a biz jet in the UK

I hope (shame that I can't say I trust) that the various secret services in the UK and elsewhere cooperate and exchange what information they have on that sort of scheme. Buying a business jet, loading it up with explosives and recruiting two fanaticised pilots with all the necessary credentials to fly the thing would be a pretty big job to keep undercover.

Tom Clancy has certainly had an effect on the real world...   
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L410Turbolet
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Why do the terrorists have to go to the bother and trouble of coordinating and executing another attack? They haven't done any since London 2005

Bombay 2008?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 27):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Why do the terrorists have to go to the bother and trouble of coordinating and executing another attack? They haven't done any since London 2005

Bombay 2008?

As we´ve seen with Mr. Breivik in Norway and in Bombay, a handful of determined men and women armed with automatic weapons with plenty of ammunition and a bunch of hand grenades each can wreak havoc if used in various locations at once against an unarmed population.
This is a much more likely scenario.

Jan
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GDB
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:48 pm

There was an absorbing documentary last week, on the plot in 2006 to blow up a fleet of airliners, flying from the UK to N.America, using explosives secreted into soft drinks bottles.
Tests on their formula proved it was viable.

Now we know what happened, they got busted, all now serving very long minimum prison terms.
But consider how outlandish the whole thing sounds, how it would have sounded before August 2006?
Some at the time thought the whole thing some kind of government put up job, not just the usual conspiracy types either.
But they were convicted after a long and complex trial. It was true, they could have succeeded.

This might not seem to have any bearing on air defence for the 2012 games, except that the plotters, however twisted they are, displayed an extraordinary ingenuity to come up with this whole idea.
And it wasn't a mainstream AQ op either, it was them, a contact on Pakistan, some low level instruction one of the plotters had on visits there. (Which prompted the initial interest of the security services).
No training camps, no shaking hands with Bin Ladan.

Can we really say that this sort of ingenuity - and we've seen others since 2006 - cannot possibly be applied to using aviation in still more ways?
None of us on here have to plan for as many contingencies as we can possibly imagine, while still allowing a successful games, neither are we privy to intelligence reports.
Nor do we have to take the rap if something does happen.
 
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:06 pm

Imagine 20 terrorists in teams of 2-3 men each armed with an AK-47 (folding stock version, so that it can be easily hidden in a bag), 10 magazines each with 30 rounds each, and 5 hand grenades.
The teams spread out over verious districts of London, and on a certain cue (e.g. by mobile phone) start randomly shooting people and throwing grenades into shops or crowds of people.
Police and army would get conflicting reports and emergency calls. By the time they have sorted out where the attackers are concentrated, hundreds of people will be killed. If you have religious fanatics, they will fight until they are dead.

Jan
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GDB
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 26):
Buying a business jet, loading it up with explosives and recruiting two fanaticised pilots with all the necessary credentials to fly the thing would be a pretty big job to keep undercover.

Tom Clancy has certainly had an effect on the real world...

I don't read his books. Neither did I mention loading a biz jet up with explosives.
However I do understand that in one Clancy novel published before 2001, a terrorist knifed to death a pilot on a civil airliner and crashed it into the White House.

Only suggested one possible idea to still use aircraft as weapons, that might circumvent the high security around airliners, since that is what they do, try to find ways around security.
One bunch learned that hijacking an airliner and flying it, or getting the crew to fly it, a long distance to the target did not work. We know this since an Islamist group tried just that with an AF Airbus in 1994. To crash it on Paris.
Google it if you don't know about this.

Lesson - if you are going to use an airliner as a missile do it in the same country and not too far away from your target. Hi-jacking means taking immediate flight control, with your own pilots. As we saw 7 years later.
 
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
Imagine

I'd rather not... yikes, you're scary sometimes!

Quoting GDB (Reply 31):
I don't read his books. Neither did I mention loading a biz jet up with explosives.

'course not, I'm sorry if I came across that way. I was referring to the original idea of putting SAMs in a residential area as a result of Clancy-ish "strategies"; that and reply no. 7 (about explosives).

Quoting GDB (Reply 31):
that is what they do, try to find ways around security.

Sadly, yes, and that is why I hope to be able to rely on secret services. The idea that a plane might be crashed into the Olympic Park sounds like complete and utter fearmongering, something that a government that's trying to score points by showing that they're "serious about fighting the bad guys" would come up with.

There's also this quote from the MoD, as per the article:

Quote:
Having a 24/7 Armed Forces and police presence will improve your local security and will not make you a target for terrorists.

which is just so utterly stupid. They're saying that some sort of terrorist organisation, even after eleven and a half years of running from bullets, shells, missiles and drones, might be able to obtain a jet and sufficiently inconspicuous kamikaze pilots. They'd do all this without being found out and then fly close enough to the Olympic park to warrant a last-second defence with a ground-based high-velocity missile... and yet they'd be stupid enough to forget about a prominently announced battery of SAMs in the vicinity? Surely they would attack that very thing before the jet came even close to its target?

There's a bigger chance of Germany winning gold, silver and bronze in the marathon.
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DocLightning
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 29):
Can we really say that this sort of ingenuity - and we've seen others since 2006 - cannot possibly be applied to using aviation in still more ways?
None of us on here have to plan for as many contingencies as we can possibly imagine, while still allowing a successful games, neither are we privy to intelligence reports.
Nor do we have to take the rap if something does happen.

What I am telling you is that if we do not catch the plot before it moves into the execution phase, then we missed the boat.
-Doc Lightning-

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vegetables2001
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:21 pm

Why bother? In my experience an airliner falling into certain parts of East London would more like come under the category of 'Urban Redevelopment' rather that 'Terrorist Outrage'.
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 34):
In my experience an airliner falling into certain parts of East London would more like come under the category of 'Urban Redevelopment' rather that 'Terrorist Outrage'.

While they're at it, why not redevelop the area cleared by the crash as a reliever airport for LHR?   
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DocLightning
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:38 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):

While they're at it, why not redevelop the area cleared by the crash as a reliever airport for LHR?   

Radio the terrorists on the way down: "Listen, as long as you're going to crash the plane with all the people aboard, would you terribly mind doing us a favor and crash in a straight line?"   

*touch wood*

The thing is that if they've somehow kept the operation under wraps long enough to get the planes in the air, the gig's up. The most effective thing would be bioweapon dispersal and even if you blow them up, the bioweapon gets dispersed. The trick to these things is to catch them in the planning phases, which has been a mostly successful strategy since 9/11. It took a few terrorist attacks in Europe to get them to notch up their intelligence, but they got the hang of it very quickly.

Intelligence, not weapons, is going to stop terrorist attacks. Well, that and good foreign policy, but I ask too much.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
aloges
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:13 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
good foreign policy, but I ask too much

Really, how could you? I am shocked, utterly shocked!  Wow!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
GDB
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:27 am

I totally agree that the best way to stop any plot is indeed to nip it in the bud, find out about it and arrest those responsible before anything happens.
Which the UK security forces have a very good record in doing, apart from once in 2005. Which no doubt still haunts those whose job it it to prevent such things.

However, contingency planning has to go rather deeper than that.

If it's Starstreak weapons that are to be employed, it's not like some big missiles are going to be perched on some building, it's a tripod (or vehicle) launched system, that uses a small ultra fast missile that does not have a warhead but 3 small penetrating darts that will wreck a flying target by the sheer speed they impact at (Mach 4 I think).

And the MoD are wrong to point out that there are some security issues around deploying them? So better if they don't?
Seems they cannot win.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:39 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 38):
Seems they cannot win.

No, they cannot win. If a terrorist controlled plane has reached the greater London area, it is too late. The area is heavily urbanised and any crash (inside or outside of a stadium) will kill thousands of people.
The only ones who´ll have a better chance of survival are the politicians visiting the games.

But I´ve got to say that today I find a Bombay scenario much more likely. Much harder to prevent and much cheaper for the terrorists.

As for the use of the, already overstretched, Army during the Olympics, you should read the comments on the inofficial Britsh Army website (I´m sure you know it already, if not, the name refers to the posterior of the human body).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Kiwirob
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:11 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 16):
Come on, you can't possibly use that as an argument! That happened 40 years ago!

and less than 20 years we had the Atlanta Olympics pipe bombing, only a few died but it could have been worse.
 
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moo
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:22 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
No, they cannot win. If a terrorist controlled plane has reached the greater London area, it is too late. The area is heavily urbanised and any crash (inside or outside of a stadium) will kill thousands of people.

The difference is, anywhere in Greater London will have a lower population density than whenever the Olympic Stadium is at or near its capacity of 80,000 (that doesn't include competitors and support staff - that could push the figures over 100,000 people - especially on the opening and closing nights, when everyone is there).

So which is it? Bring down the aircraft in an area where the population is on average only 5,000/km^2 (the average of Greater London), or...

Yes, by the time the aircraft reaches Greater London, its too late, but there are still considerations to be made and limitation of damages to be enacted. 5,000 dead is a better figure, forgive me for saying that, than 25,000.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:23 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):
Instead of parking a missile team on a block of flats in London, why can't they park one of those new type 45 destroyers in the Thames estuary?

The navy keep bleating on about how good it is, with a powerful radar that can detect a flea leaving a dogs backside from 500miles away(OK not quite that good, but you get the point), and the most advanced air defence destroyer ever built and how it can take out multiple targets.

A type 45 could easily deal with any plane that has been hijacked and identified prior to entering UK airspace, but wouldn't be much use if the hijack happened when the plane is on final approach to LHR. This is a point defence strategy to pick up last minute/low level threats.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 38):
If it's Starstreak weapons that are to be employed, it's not like some big missiles are going to be perched on some building, it's a tripod (or vehicle) launched system, that uses a small ultra fast missile that does not have a warhead but 3 small penetrating darts that will wreck a flying target by the sheer speed they impact at (Mach 4 I think).

It still sheds it´s second stage rocket after 1.5 km (which will then come down at speed).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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moo
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:35 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
It still sheds it´s second stage rocket after 1.5 km (which will then come down at speed).

They aren't going to be firing them off every five minutes as a deterrent - they are going to be used as a last resort.

Collateral damage from a spent stage falling to earth in that sort of instance is acceptable. The alternative is less acceptable.
 
GDB
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:58 pm

I wonder how the very vocal anti-LHR people are going to find the Typhoon deployment to RAF Northolt?
Think they'll like it?
They will certainly find out what a really loud aircraft sounds like!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:09 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
I wonder how the very vocal anti-LHR people are going to find the Typhoon deployment to RAF Northolt?
Think they'll like it?
They will certainly find out what a really loud aircraft sounds like!

I would like the RAF to get the Harriers back and operational. They were LOUD!

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
GDB
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
you should read the comments on the inofficial Britsh Army website (I´m sure you know it already, if not, the name refers to the posterior of the human body).

I do indeed, sadly less of the authentic voice it once was once journalists started quoting from it, leading to more contributions from those not in the know, but still interesting and often funny.
And if a British Squaddie is not complaining/taking the piss, there's something wrong!
 
Gingersnap
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
I would like the RAF to get the Harriers back and operational. They were LOUD!

So true. However maybe it's just me, but I find the Typhoon's EJ200 to be MUCH louder than the Pegasus.
Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
 
raffik
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RE: London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites

Tue May 01, 2012 9:29 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 24):
The better answer would be to find ways to take away the hate toward the UK, USA and other countries that give motivation for terror acts.

I agree. The invasion and ongoing occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq have created huge hostility towards America and now Britain, who hadn't been a target before.
That was Bush's great attitude "You're either with us, or against us", dragging us into a war that we didn't want (the UK public) and which also turned us into an unpopular country within the Middle East (July terror bombings in London).

Then the ongoing lack of support for the Palestinians but 100% backing of Israel by America also twisted the knife.
Having traveled the Middle East, living there and being involved with communities, it all has compounded into a distrust of the West.

Anyway, back to the apartments. I think it's questionable - by arming that block of residential flats with missiles, you are actually turning a residential area into a target. When Hizbollah, Taliban etc operate from within a residential apartment block, the army has called them cowards and have said that civilian casualties have been un avoidable due to the armed groups intertwining them with innocent civilians. But this is exactly what the army plan to do- double standards if you ask me.

Why don't we place the missiles along the British coast- shoot them down over the sea instead of allowing them to overfly a city as densely populated as London. They will crash into the sea rather than houses and people.
I live on the South coast (Sussex) and we have lots of open spaces along the beaches and cliffs where the missiles could be placed. Don't force it onto some poor people. They don't want missiles on their roof, the fact that they can become targets, that their building will be damaged by fire or vibration etc.
- Alec

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