Starbuk7
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Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:55 pm

New research finds that wind farms actually warm up the surface of the land underneath them during the night, a phenomena that could put a damper on efforts to expand wind energy as a green energy solution.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/...rth-researchers-say/#ixzz1tYFSNfrH

I like the idea that is being used in Dubai they show mid article, Wind Power Without the Blades: Big Pics
http://news.discovery.com/tech/wind-power-without-the-blades.html
 
Mir
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:09 pm

When you're trying to extract energy from somewhere, it's not going to come without side effects. That's true of any form of power generation - solar, hydro, wind, coal, oil, nuclear, you name it. Doesn't mean that some of those methods aren't, on the whole, greener than others.

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
I like the idea that is being used in Dubai they show mid article,

Looks promising. And is still in development, whereas conventional wind turbines are available now and are well-developed and reliable, so I can't begrudge anyone for using them.

-Mir
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
I like the idea that is being used in Dubai they show mid article,

Dubai could certainly harness solar power. A couple of (very large) solar farms in Abu Dhabi and Dubai and they could power up the entire peninsula.

Wind, however, might be a different story. I don't know how strong the wind blows over the Persian Gulf or the Gulf of Oman to warrant wind farms. Add to that the constant sand storms and your equipment might end up damaged. Still, that new concept is certainly worth exploring.
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Tugger
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:41 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
New research finds that wind farms actually warm up the surface of the land underneath them during the night, a phenomena that could put a damper on efforts to expand wind energy as a green energy solution.
Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
When you're trying to extract energy from somewhere, it's not going to come without side effects. That's true of any form of power generation - solar, hydro, wind, coal, oil, nuclear, you name it. Doesn't mean that some of those methods aren't, on the whole, greener than others.

It's mostly a nonsensical research document that is only seeking to continue the funding of the research itself (the horror of all conservatives). The actual facts are that the wind power temperature "increase" is not truly an increase in global temperatures, there is not a decrease in the amount of heat being lost into space by the earth. The simple effect is from mixing up the heat between the ground and the air above it, they do not have any data of the temperature change in the atmosphere above the windmill. Nor has it taken into account the delta between the "added" heat versus the decrease of added heat from not having to use conventional sources for power generation.

This is as simply a stupid bit of research fluff for the sake of gaining more research dollars as there ever was. Though kudos for them for knowing how to get noticed and raise a furor in the press.

This is an interesting and simple article that touches on what I am saying:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...0/wind-farms-cause-global-warming/
It mentions that there was a recent report that showed that offshore wind farms lowered the temperature by a degree, so I guess the two effects cancel each other out!

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GBLKD
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com

Great unbiased source there  
 
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
The simple effect is from mixing up the heat between the ground and the air above it,

  

This goes for night temperatures. The effect is smaller during daylight, albeit still measureable, and they don't know for sure why this is. But there is no sign that windfarms actually heat up the atmosphere.
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DocLightning
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:20 pm

I always find it amusing how certain right-wing idealogues will figure out a way to slam something, anything if it contravenes ideology, including making up facts based on poorly-done "research." If it is "green" or "greenish" then it must be demonstrated to be bad for the environment (leaving aside the inconvenient fact that fossil fuels are far worse).

And so it is no surprise that this comes from Foxnews.

That said, wind turbines DO have environmental effects. There are many advantages listed to the windstalk idea, but I think that the density advantage is probably the biggest one. In fact, there is no way to generate electricity without any environmental effect.

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
This is as simply a stupid bit of research fluff for the sake of gaining more research dollars as there ever was.

Could be that, too. But I think it comes down to pure idoleology at the level of Fox News reporting it. "This Green stuff is LIBERAL! Drill, baby, drill!" The headline is too loaded to interpret it otherwise. A more balanced headline would have read: "Researchers looking into new wind farms with less environmental impact."
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Starbuk7
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:21 pm

[quote=GBLKD,reply=4]Great unbiased source there [/quote
I'm sorry, do you need to read it from some other "unbiased" sources to believe it?
http://news.discovery.com/earth/hot-wind-farms-120429.html
http://news.yahoo.com/wind-farms-mak...ter-getting-cleaner-192406787.html
And there are others..
 
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 7):
I'm sorry, do you need to read it from some other "unbiased" sources to believe it?

It has nothing to do with "believing" it. It has to do with presentation. Wind farms are NOT "warming the Earth." They are warming certain local areas at night.
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Mir
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
If it is "green" or "greenish" then it must be demonstrated to be bad for the environment (leaving aside the inconvenient fact that fossil fuels are far worse).

   Let's remember that wind farms do not emit chemicals and other pollutants into the atmosphere or into adjacent waterways the way fossil fuel plants do, they do not produce hazardous waste the way nuclear plants do, they do not submerge large areas of land and alter ecosystems the way hydro-electric dams do, and they do not render large areas of land unusable for other purposes the way solar farms do. And, of course, fossil fuel and nuclear plants add heat to their local area as well.

So wind power is pretty benign from an environmental standpoint.

-Mir
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:13 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
And so it is no surprise that this comes from Foxnews.

I was gonna say this, but I looked for more sources. The difference is what has already been mentioned (it's only a regional effect and not something very drastic).
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Tugger
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:14 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Could be that, too. But I think it comes down to pure idoleology at the level of Fox News reporting it. "This Green stuff is LIBERAL! Drill, baby, drill!" The headline is too loaded to interpret it otherwise. A more balanced headline would have read: "Researchers looking into new wind farms with less environmental impact."

They are all head lining it the same way because "it sells". It is not just Fox. So it is not "conservatives" that are unfairly bashing "green" technology. The entire report is essentially a sham and as far as I can tell it wasn't commissioned by a "conservative" organization. The fact that news agencies have picked it up shouldn't be surprising.

Personally I am not seeing Fox or anyone else really using this story for bashing green projects or supporting more drilling etc. I think they are just trumpeting it as a research finding and seeing where it leads. Of course it is leading quickly to being proven stupid.

Tugg
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Superfly
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:15 pm

I'm starting to burn up.
Who can I sue for this?
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1337Delta764
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
New research finds that wind farms actually warm up the surface of the land underneath them during the night, a phenomena that could put a damper on efforts to expand wind energy as a green energy solution.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/...rth-researchers-say/#ixzz1tYFSNfrH

I like the idea that is being used in Dubai they show mid article, Wind Power Without the Blades: Big Pics
http://news.discovery.com/tech/wind-....html

Yep, another good reason to go with nuclear power instead.
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aloges
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
Who can I sue for this?

the people driving the sort of car that you love   
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Superfly
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:21 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 14):
the people driving the sort of car that you love

  
Cute!   

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Let's remember that wind farms do not emit chemicals and other pollutants into the atmosphere or into adjacent waterways the way fossil fuel plants do, they do not produce hazardous waste the way nuclear plants do, they do not submerge large areas of land and alter ecosystems the way hydro-electric dams do, and they do not render large areas of land unusable for other purposes the way solar farms do. And, of course, fossil fuel and nuclear plants add heat to their local area as well.

So wind power is pretty benign from an environmental standpoint.

They just kill thousands of cute little birds.
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garpd
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:25 pm

Research most likely paid for by one or more Oil Sheikhs.
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Mir
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
They just kill thousands of cute little birds.

Less than oil, coal or gas plants. Of course, those do it slowly over time, which isn't quite as good for propaganda purposes.

-Mir
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aloges
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:28 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
They just kill thousands of cute little birds.

You'd better tell the manufacturers of these other items to stop their deadly business... and then tell cat owners to put Mr. Whiskers down:

Man-made structure/technology - Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)

Feral and domestic cats - Hundreds of millions
Power lines - 130 million -- 174 million
Windows (residential and commercial) - 100 million -- 1 billion
Pesticides - 70 million
Automobiles - 60 million -- 80 million
Lighted communication towers - 40 million -- 50 million

As for wind turbines, the figure is 10,000 -- 40,000.

source: http://science.howstuffworks.com/env...cience/wind-turbine-kill-birds.htm

[Edited 2012-04-30 14:30:18]
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Superfly
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):

So can Exxon get their $150 million back for those birds they accidentally killed way back in 1989?
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
So can Exxon get their $150 million back for those birds they accidentally killed way back in 1989?

You know, if the question was better or perhaps even included a little bit of background info, I might just be tempted to answer it.  
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Tugger
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
They just kill thousands of cute little birds.

Which research has found, decreases enormously within a year or so as they learn to avoid the wind farms on their migration paths.  

Of course can you trust the research?     

Tugg
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Superfly
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:00 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 20):
You know, if the question was better or perhaps even included a little bit of background info, I might just be tempted to answer it.

Well, can Exxon get their $150 million back for those birds they accidentally killed way back in 1989?

Quoting tugger (Reply 21):
Which research has found, decreases enormously within a year or so as they learn to avoid the wind farms on their migration paths.

Kinda like how our White House found out that after wasting $535 million or our tax dollars on a soon to be doomed solar panel company, within a year or so as they learn to avoid such a stunt again?

    
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aloges
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:14 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
Well, can Exxon get their $150 million back for those birds they accidentally killed way back in 1989?

Oh well... it might have been interesting.
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Rara
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:14 pm

We put up with negative side-effects from traditional sources of energy for years and years. Nuclear is dangerous and there's an incident every few decades. Coal is dirty and its CO2 emissions will damage the climate.

We need to get used to the idea that renewable energy sources also have their downsides. Wind engines will alter landscapes and kill birds, biofuels will require huge plantations and raise food prices, hydropower will alter rivers and destroy habitats. Decentralized energy production will require vast new power lines for which lots of trees have to be cut down.

What I'm saying is: there's no free lunch. No energy source is perfect. If we're serious about moving to renewable energies, we better be prepared to deal with its downsides as well. Certain irresponsible environmentalists made us believe that renewables are an all-perfect solution - they're not. Still, realistically they're the only way to go.
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1337Delta764
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 24):
Nuclear is dangerous and there's an incident every few decades. Coal is dirty and its CO2 emissions will damage the climate.

Nuclear is not dangerous, regardless of what anyone thinks. Anyone who claims nuclear is dangerous is a sworn to God   . Far more people have died from fossil fuels as well as dam collapses. The Banqiao Dam collapse has killed more than all nuclear incidents combined.

[Edited 2012-04-30 15:24:54]
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aloges
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 25):
Nuclear is not dangerous, regardless of what anyone thinks. Anyone who claims nuclear is dangerous is a sworn to God    .

I hate to interrupt your message from God, but could you perhaps enlighten us as to when the Almighty declared nuclear to be safe?
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Mir
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:39 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 25):
Nuclear is not dangerous

Nuclear is not dangerous, but the question of what to do with the waste is, and continues to be, problematic. And that stuff is dangerous.

-Mir
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1337Delta764
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 27):
I hate to interrupt your message from God, but could you perhaps enlighten us as to when the Almighty declared nuclear to be safe?

Because more have died by fossil fuels as well as dam collapses, which all anti-nuclear activists seem to ignore. More people die from fossil fuels every year than from nuclear power plants, and those deaths keep on adding up. The Banqiao Dam disaster itself killed more than Chernobyl and Fukushima combined, and if you add all other dam disasters, deaths from nuclear power don't even come close.

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
Nuclear is not dangerous, but the question of what to do with the waste is, and continues to be, problematic. And that stuff is dangerous.

That is simple, reprocess it. Most of the plutonium in nuclear waste is Plutonium-240, rather than Plutonium-239. Plutonium-240 is unsuitable for nuclear weapons.

[Edited 2012-04-30 15:42:57]
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windy95
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 24):
its CO2 emissions will damage the climate.




Exactly how does CO2 "damage" the climate?

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):
As for wind turbines, the figure is 10,000 -- 40,000




Yes a sacrifice of this kind is okay as long as we can better the cause of global warming. I bet those birds would rather have more CO2.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
So can Exxon get their $150 million back for those birds they accidentally killed way back in 1989?



Yep we longer have to worry about a few birds dieing from an oil spill. If 10K to 40K a year are okay for the turbines a few thousand in an oil spill is nothing?

Quoting garpd (Reply 16):
Research most likely paid for by one or more Oil Sheikhs.



Any links on that?
 
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zkojq
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:47 pm

Meanwhile, the Coal Lobby warns that Wind Farms may blow Earth off orbit.

www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-c...warns-wind-farms-may-blow-e,20876/   
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windy95
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:53 pm

Windmills vs. Birds
About 70 golden eagles are killed every year by turbines at California's Altamont Pass, reports the LA Times..


Top
 
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Tugger
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:56 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 32):
Windmills vs. Birds
About 70 golden eagles are killed every year by turbines at California's Altamont Pass, reports the LA Times..

And?

Tugg
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aloges
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:58 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 30):
Yes a sacrifice of this kind is okay as long as we can better the cause of global warming. I bet those birds would rather have more CO2.

It's funny how you ignore all the other numbers from that source.   
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Rara
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 25):

Nuclear is not dangerous, regardless of what anyone thinks. Anyone who claims nuclear is dangerous is a sworn to God . Far more people have died from fossil fuels as well as dam collapses. The Banqiao Dam collapse has killed more than all nuclear incidents combined.

Like you, I believe fossil fuels to be a much greater danger than nuclear power. That doesn't make nuclear power "safe", however. Accidents are rare, but they do happen, and then they're pretty severe.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 30):

Exactly how does CO2 "damage" the climate?

Nice try.   Since you're the a.net special science correspondent, I'm sure you can explain it for all our viewers.
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Mir
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:10 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 29):
That is simple, reprocess it. Most of the plutonium in nuclear waste is Plutonium-240, rather than Plutonium-239. Plutonium-240 is unsuitable for nuclear weapons.

First of all, reprocessing is expensive, and nuclear power is an expensive proposition in the first place (mostly because of all of the things you need to do to make it safe - nuclear power is inherently dangerous, and it's only through engineering that it can be made safe). Then you still have to deal with the other materials that you can't use again but are still dangerous. And you have to figure out a way to get the spent fuel from the power plants to the reprocessing facility - the spent fuel is a security concern, and to have it in transit over long distances isn't ideal.

All in all, reprocessing is nice, but I'm not convinced it's the panacea that some make it out to be.

-Mir
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windy95
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:30 pm

http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/?page_id=770

Quoting tugger (Reply 33):
About 70 golden eagles are killed every year by turbines at California's Altamont Pass, reports the LA Times..

And?




At the large wind farm of Altamont Pass, California, 116 golden eagles (GE) have been reported to be killed by turbine blades yearly. This was established by a comprehensive study realized by Dr Smallwood in 2004 (1). Extrapolating to the 25 years of existence of the wind farm, this would represent a toll of about 2,900 golden eagles. Adding to this the mortality at other wind farms in the Western United States

http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/?page_id=755

Spanish wind farms kill 6 to 18 million birds & bats a year

On 12 January 2012, at the First Scientific Congress on Wind Energy and Wildlife Conservation in Jerez de la Frontera, Spain, the Spanish Society of Ornithology (SEO/Birdlife) made public its estimate that, yearly, Spain’s 18,000 wind turbines may be killing 6 to 18 million birds and bats (1). The average per turbine comes down to 333 – 1,000 deaths annually, which is a far cry from the 2 – 4 birds claimed by the American wind industry, or the 400,000 birds a year estimated by the American Bird Conservancy for the whole United States, which has about twice as many turbines as Spain.

http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/?page_id=770

Quoting Rara (Reply 35):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 30):

Exactly how does CO2 "damage" the climate?

Nice try. Since you're the a.net special science correspondent, I'm sure you can explain it for all our viewers



Seeing how you are a resident a.net High Priest of the religion of global warming I would think it would be easy for you to explain how CO2 damages the climate.

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
It's funny how you ignore all the other numbers from that source.



So your argument is that because it is currently killing less than these other objects then that makes it okay?   What about when the numbers of these machines double and triple will you then still be okay with the rate following. I am sure all of these birds love your logic. The environmental left will sacrifice anything at the altar of global warming. Anything can and will be tossed under the bus to get those evil oil and coal companies.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:37 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
nuclear power is inherently dangerous, and it's only through engineering that it can be made safe).

Can't the exact same thing be said for flying (basically if you stop flying in an uncontrolled manner, if anything goes wrong, you can plummet to your death)? Or any number of other things?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
So your argument is that because it is currently killing less than these other objects then that makes it okay?

I would have to say: Yes.

And why would that not be supportable? It has nothing to do with "anything is sacrificed for the green agenda", it has to do with the fact that it just isn't that bad in the grand scheme of things.

I don't think you are against the deaths and are just trying to make some kind of argument for arguments sake. Things die. Lots of technological things kill lots of living creatures.

Tugg
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windy95
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
It's funny how you ignore all the other numbers from that source




I just noticed that the numbers in the source where provided by a wind-farm lobby front group.       Loving those tax payer provided subsidies.

http://www.awea.org/
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:47 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
I'm starting to burn up.
Who can I sue for this?

The Thai government. It's their fault they're located in the tropics.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
They just kill thousands of cute little birds.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
t the large wind farm of Altamont Pass, California, 116 golden eagles (GE) have been reported to be killed by turbine blades yearly.
....
Spanish wind farms kill 6 to 18 million birds & bats a year.

Hmm...I happened to come across this...

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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
I like the idea that is being used in Dubai they show mid article, Wind Power Without the Blades: Big Pics
http://news.discovery.com/tech/wind-....html

Now that is an interesting bit of technology I could get behind. Like windmills, it will still only supply a fraction of our needs, but is a hell of lot simpler - no friction loss, the actual equipment is on the ground making for easy maintenance, a tornado could go through one of these farms with minimal damage, probably (generating a crapload of power on the way.)

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Looks promising. And is still in development, whereas conventional wind turbines are available now and are well-developed and reliable, so I can't begrudge anyone for using them.

I can imagine people saying the same thing 100 odd years ago - why bother with these electric locomotives, steam power works great.

Do you realize that most of these windmills actually use power when the wind is not blowing? They use electricity to keep the fans turning in order to not flatten the bearings or something like that.
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Mir
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 38):
Can't the exact same thing be said for flying (basically if you stop flying in an uncontrolled manner, if anything goes wrong, you can plummet to your death)?

Yes. Which is why there is a lot of safety regulation in the aviation industry. And it does drive up cost. Certain things are inherently risky - that doesn't mean they shouldn't be done, but one has to be realistic about the cost of doing it properly.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
I can imagine people saying the same thing 100 odd years ago - why bother with these electric locomotives, steam power works great.

I'm not saying don't develop electric locomotives, I'm saying don't stop buying steam locomotives just because electric locomotives are in development and might show up a couple of years down the line (or might show up more than a few years down the line).

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Tugger
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 12:47 am

Often times it appears that some here against the development of technology, though I am sure no one really is. I don't see it as "going after" any industry or that the coal and oil industry are evil. We are simply seeing ongoing development of various methods to harness various forms of energy. If the other or older forms of energy production can't keep up then new forms will replace them. If the new methods of energy production can't keep up then the old will continue for as long as they are financially viable and other forms will continue to be developed to produce energy. With this type of process wind energy and windmills will continue to develop and attempt to improve their production and reduce impacts to their surrounding environment.

To me that is not a bad thing.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 39):
Loving those tax payer provided subsidies.

If you are going to go after tax subsidies or breaks then don't as most all industries have had subsidies or tax breaks over their lifetimes to develop their technology. Sometimes it is federal and sometimes it is grants and sometimes it is from the local community that will benefit from it being there. What is happening now is no different and is normal. The USA is not providing significant sums or breaks for new technology development. It is pretty much the same as it always has been.

Again, to me that is not a bad thing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
a tornado could go through one of these farms with minimal damage, probably

Truthfully, I doubt the damage would be minimal as the towers would be smacking into each other with the wind going in all sorts of random directions. I would think this will cause a lot of damage to the "pole".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41):
Do you realize that most of these windmills actually use power when the wind is not blowing? They use electricity to keep the fans turning in order to not flatten the bearings or something like that.

I would assume then that any power production source that uses bearings would need to do the same? Doesn't every form of power generation consume some amount of energy when it isn't producing?

Tugg
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aloges
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 8:31 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 37):
So your argument is that because it is currently killing less than these other objects then that makes it okay?

Compared to the millions of animals killed needlessly by oil spills (and industrial pollution in general), the fishing industry, plastic waste and so on, yes, I do believe that a couple thousand birds killed by wind farms are a small price to pay.

Since we're on the topic of animal welfare, is all the meat you buy ethically correct? Surely you're not eating meat from animals that have suffered all their lives if you have this big a problem with birds that are killed instantaneously by wind farms.
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NoUFO
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 10:41 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 31):
70 golden eagles are killed every year by turbines at California's Altamont Pass

Ask them how many of them (as well as other eagles, hawks, falcons and owls) are electrocuted on transmission lines and poles each year.

Correct answer: More than 1.000.

Than there are glass windows, automobiles, pesticides, land development projects, communication towers, tailings ponds ...
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Rara
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 10:43 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 36):
Seeing how you are a resident a.net High Priest of the religion of global warming I would think it would be easy for you to explain how CO2 damages the climate.

You must confuse me with somebody else.   As I've surely mentioned before, global warming interests me very little. I'm not a climatologist, so I don't believe I can add much substance to the topic. My interest lies in the way people handle the issue, how they position themselves, how they integrate it into their world-views... I find that very worthwhile to look at.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
windy95
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 12:22 pm

Big Solar threatens existence of rare desert tortoise

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=51206

Another one that will soon be sacrificed in the name of global warming and the development of technology. Keep those subsidies flowing.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 12:36 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):

So what is your suggestion for power geeration that is more environmentally friendly? Or are you simply happy to let the lights go out?

Fred
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AirPacific747
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 12:46 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 36):
At the large wind farm of Altamont Pass, California, 116 golden eagles (GE) have been reported to be killed by turbine blades yearly. This was established by a comprehensive study realized by Dr Smallwood in 2004 (1). Extrapolating to the 25 years of existence of the wind farm, this would represent a toll of about 2,900 golden eagles. Adding to this the mortality at other wind farms in the Western United States

As if you give a flying f*** about birds that get killed.. you just don't like the liberals and their agenda and now you're using birds as an excuse against wind turbines.. lame.

I guess you have nothing against cars even though thousands of animals (and humans) get killed every year by car.
 
aloges
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RE: Wind Farms Are Warming The Earth

Tue May 01, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 46):
Another one that will soon be sacrificed in the name of global warming and the development of technology. Keep those subsidies flowing.

Nonsense. The lawsuit is apparently pending, as per your article, so what may or may not be built where is completely undecided. The proposed solution sounds simple:

Quote:
The green groups want the company to relocate from its seven-mile campus to a less sensitive desert area.

Since you're apparently concerned with the preservation of habitats for wild animals, I would like to draw your attention to the devastation left behind in Canada by the oil industry:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20...adian-oil-sands/essick-photography
That's a lot more damage than putting up solar panels will ever cause.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.

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