Kiwirob
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Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 9:23 am

Some like to say diesel will never take off in the US, Audi appears to think they are wrong. Go Audi!

Quote:
In the next year or so, virtually every Audi model sold in the United States ranging from the compact A3 to the full-sized A8, will be available with a diesel engine.

Currently, only the A3 and the Q7 are available as oilburners, but starting in 2013 we will see diesel versions of the A6, A8, and Q5, followed by the next-generation Audi A4 TDI.

Today in the U.S., only four automakers (five if you count Porsche, which will start selling the Cayenne Diesel in September of this year) offer diesels, namely Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Volkswagen. Between the four, they offer a total of 14 models. More and more automakers are announcing diesels (expect a Volkswagen Beetle diesel before the end of the summer and a Cadillac ATS diesel in 2013).

The rest of the article can be read [url=http://www.thedieseldriver.com/2012/05/audis-u-s-diesel-strategy-an-interview-with-wayne-killen/]here[/quote]
 
Flighty
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 1:00 pm

They are just proud Germans engaged in a massive pissing war with BMW and Mercedes. They are all using Diesel as a true blue German marketing ideal. It is of no practical value here, in light vehicles anyway. Take a look at the BMW 528i. Case closed. It gets diesel fuel economy without the cost. And the diesel USA compliant hardware is still very costly by all reputable sources. $5000 per car or so. It's not a business motivated move. It's about German nationalism at the core IMO, or "image" at best. That would provide a rationale for whizzing away money, which is what these diesel products represent AFAIK.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):

Some like to say diesel will never take off in the US, Audi appears to think they are wrong.

It won't take off until:

1) The US government tells the trucking lobby (which includes the Teamsters Union, among others) to kiss off and allow the sale of higher Cetane diesel fuel. Current cetane levels are around 41-42. European diesel is 50-52 cetane. Big truck engines don't mind that stuff, but smaller, higher-reving diesel engines such as those in cars need higher cetane.

For those of you familiar with Octane levels, American diesel fuel is analogous to the crap gasoline they used to sell in Eastern Europe, India and other such places - around 78 Octane, as I recall. High-performance and fuel economy simply are not possible with crappy fuel. A VW Diesel 2.0L Golf is rated 42mpg (highway) in the US, and the same car gets 65mpg highway in Europe. While a few mpg might be explained by a different test, there is not much rocket science behind driving in a straight line ant about 70-75 MPH - the main difference is the quality of the fuel.

2) The government (Federal and State) stops excessive taxes on diesel and allows diesel to be sold at a price commensurate with its production and distribution cost, relative to gasoline. Diesel is cheaper to produce, and should by all accounts be 10-20% cheaper than gasoline at the pump.

3) The government needs to lighten up on the emissions standards for diesel. They are no longer the smokey black clouds of the past.
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oldeuropean
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
It's about German nationalism at the core IMO, or "image" at best.

What are you talking about?

In Europe nearly 50% of the cars, sold by all makers, have Diesel engines.
They are also built by FIAT, Peugeot-Citroen, Renault, SEAT, Ford!, Opel (GM!), Vauxhall (GM!) and Japanese and Korean companys.

It's more about the lack of US buyers to be flexible.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/diesel/4330313

[Edited 2012-05-02 06:14:12]

[Edited 2012-05-02 06:15:20]
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Flighty
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 1:24 pm

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 3):
It's more about the lack of US buyers to be flexible.
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 3):
In Europe nearly 50% of the cars, sold by all makers, have Diesel engines.
They are also built by FIAT, Peugeot-Citroen, Renault, SEAT, and Japanese and Korean companys.

AFAIK those vehicles are illegal here. Too much pollution. I always maintained this was an intentional Detroit lobbying effort, to exclude (foreign) diesel light vehicles, but that is only my speculation. Currently the US industry produces -zero- light duty diesel products AFAIK*! I would further extrapolate that that is no coincidence.

* to sell in the United States.

[Edited 2012-05-02 06:25:52]
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Take a look at the BMW 528i. Case closed. It gets diesel fuel economy without the cost.

It doesn't get anywhere near diesel fuel economy, it's not even close to the 320d. The F30 330d and 335d haven't been released yet but judging by the 5 series with the same engines the 328 is still going to be less economical than the diesels.

These are saloons and stationwagons diesel gets even better when it's powering an SUV, I can't understand why anyone would ever consider buying a petrol SUV.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 2:58 pm

Even Chrysler used to sell their minivans in Europe with VW 1.9 TDI diesel engine.

Too bad the USA will never see diesel take off due to lobbying and regulations..

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Revelation
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The government needs to lighten up on the emissions standards for diesel. They are no longer the smokey black clouds of the past.

Exactly because of emission standards.

Proof: Everywhere emission standards allow more pollution, more pollution is what happens.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 3):
It's more about the lack of US buyers to be flexible.

There is some anxiety over availability of diesel fuel, but that is getting better with time.

I certainly will be considering diesel when it's time to replace my car, which is hopefully not too soon.

My friend has a new Jetta TDI he's very happy with, and getting 44+ MPG.

I've driven one, and think it's a great value for money. Nice low-end torque, nice interior fit and finish, half the price of my current 330i.
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mham001
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
A VW Diesel 2.0L Golf is rated 42mpg (highway) in the US, and the same car gets 65mpg highway in Europe. While a few mpg might be explained by a different test, there is not much rocket science behind driving in a straight line ant about 70-75 MPH - the main difference is the quality of the fuel.

It's not a "few mpg", it's 20%. 13 mpg.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
2) The government (Federal and State) stops excessive taxes on diesel and allows diesel to be sold at a price commensurate with its production and distribution cost, relative to gasoline. Diesel is cheaper to produce, and should by all accounts be 10-20% cheaper than gasoline at the pump.

Bogus argument, diesel is taxed $.05/gallon more than gas. Insignificant.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
3) The government needs to lighten up on the emissions standards for diesel. They are no longer the smokey black clouds of the past.

Why? Do you believe because you can' see it, it won't kill you? Think again.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110713211942.htm

I don't believe the diesel stubbornness of the German manufacturers (primarily Volkswagen AG) is nationalistic. Partly egotistical for sure, but mostly a business decision. They have invested billions into diesel and they want to retain their lead in a leading fuel source. You can bet that VW is watching other alternative sales with an eagle eye, they sold 58% of the diesels in the US last year..
The real Audi question becomes, will VW allow Audi to produce any or all of the electric and hybrid models they have been announcing recently. Or will they continue to play the media with electric vapor ware? Also, for a little perspective, Audi sold 604 diesels in the US last month. Total.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 5:59 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Exactly because of emission standards.

Proof: Everywhere emission standards allow more pollution, more pollution is what happens.

Emission standards which are extremely difficult to achieve (particularly with the low-quality fuel) were imposed apparently with the express purpose to get rid of diesel cars.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
It's not a "few mpg", it's 20%. 13 mpg.

Oops, I used imperial. But still, 4.3 L/100 converts to 54.7 miles per US gallon, and 65.7 miles per Imperial gallon. That's a 30% improvement.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
Bogus argument, diesel is taxed $.05/gallon more than gas. Insignificant.

Source?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
I don't believe the diesel stubbornness of the German manufacturers (primarily Volkswagen AG) is nationalistic. Partly egotistical for sure, but mostly a business decision.

It was an energy policy decision by various European governments to promote diesel by taxing it less in order to reduce oil consumption and imports. France led the way, not Germany. 30-40 years ago, you had diesels all over France already - the Germans started building them to gain market share in France, before it caught on in other markets.
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Revelation
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Emission standards which are extremely difficult to achieve (particularly with the low-quality fuel) were imposed apparently with the express purpose to get rid of diesel cars.

And not pollution?

Apologies to aloges, but:

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mham001
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Oops, I used imperial. But still, 4.3 L/100 converts to 54.7 miles per US gallon, and 65.7 miles per Imperial gallon. That's a 30% improvement.

I was talking only about the US vs EU mpg test (~20%). I did not realize you used Imperial too. Knock off another 18% or so for that which gets you very close to that 42 mpg US you listed earlier.

It's starting to sound like the diesel guys are pushing this low cetene fuel argument now that the low-sulfur conversion has not magically produced these super cars they promised. Remember that? What has really been happening all this time is that the media starts quoting EU mpgs which are meaningless here, but they do wow the crowds.


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Source?
www.epa.gov. (or something similar) Look for yourself.

[Edited 2012-05-02 12:24:29]
 
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):

It's starting to sound like the diesel guys are pushing this low cetene fuel argument now that the low-sulfur conversion has not magically produced these super cars they promised.

42 MPG for a powerful engine on a mid-sized sedan that meets EPA requirements sounds like a super car to me!

Also seems to blow away the CAFE:

Quote:

standards for passenger vehicles will rise from the current 27.5 mpg to 35.7 mpg by 2015
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TheSonntag
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 8:08 pm

Problem with Diesel is the higher emission of nitrous oxides. This can be fixed, but it is relatively expensive. In Europe, the standards are different between gas and diesel driven cars - not much, but the difference is there.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Wed May 02, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
I was talking only about the US vs EU mpg test (~20%). I did not realize you used Imperial too. Knock off another 18% or so for that which gets you very close to that 42 mpg US you listed earlier.

It's starting to sound like the diesel guys are pushing this low cetene fuel argument now that the low-sulfur conversion has not magically produced these super cars they promised. Remember that? What has really been happening all this time is that the media starts quoting EU mpgs which are meaningless here, but they do wow the crowds.

Oh the EPA - now THAT's an objective source these days  

Are you trying to tell me that cetane doesn't matter for mileage and emissions? Low cetane fuels contain high olefin levels, and it is the olefins that are the prime cause of the nasty side effects of diesel that caused diesel to fall out of favor in the US, like engine smoke, soot, gummy residue, poor engine power and even noise. Cetane improvers, such as alkyl nitrate, are sold in gas stations here and can be added to diesel fuel to improve its performance, but they don't compensate for high natural olefin content - i.e. you get some power improvement but it is no cleaner.

Tuning an engine to run on higher cetane is not that easy - not like a gasoline car. The right fuel injector pressure is particularly important (not too high, not too low), but once you find the balance, higher cetane fuels produce significantly less soot, smoke, NO2, and produce more power. You can't deny basic chemistry.
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stasisLAX
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 2:35 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
Some like to say diesel will never take off in the US, Audi appears to think they are wrong. Go Audi!

General Motors is FINALLY trying to market diesel cars again (after the fiasco of the Oldsmobile V-8s diesels of the late 1970s and early 1980s) with the introduction of the 2013 Chevy Cruze diesel sedan (2.0 liter diesel 4 cylinder motor, producing approximately 160 horsepower) here in the USA. Perhaps Ford will sell a diesel powered Focus in response. I would not be the least bit surprised to see the new Dodge Dart (based on a widened and lengthened Alfa Romeo platform) offered here with a diesel, given the large number of diesel motors that Fiat offers in Europe.
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Aesma
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 10:05 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
light vehicles

Do those exist in the US ?

I agree that pollution must be minimized, in fact I'm against diesel engines in small cars myself (you can get a diesel Smart here). But what about the pollution that would be avoided would cars burn a lot less fuel ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 12:04 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
I agree that pollution must be minimized, in fact I'm against diesel engines in small cars myself (you can get a diesel Smart here). But what about the pollution that would be avoided would cars burn a lot less fuel ?

And the cost/pollution saved by not importing that fuel. And the easing of demand pressure, lowering the cost of fuel. And the fact that we will be sending less money to Saudi, Iran etc who use it to fund nefarious deeds. And (in the case of the US) making a big positive impact on our trade deficit, which will strengthen the dollar. The list of benefits goes on and on.
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aloges
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
The list of benefits goes on and on.

So there are many good reasons for steering demand away from wasteful vehicles, aren't there? I'm thinking of school run SUVs and other follies.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 18):
So there are many good reasons for steering demand away from wasteful vehicles, aren't there? I'm thinking of school run SUVs and other follies.

100% behind you on that one. You know of course that federal regulations (in the form of CAFE standards) created the SUV craze in the first place? They imposed restrictions on family cars, and left this big gaping loophole where if the automakers made family cars out of trucks, so instead of pushing everyone towards smaller cars, they pushed them towards bigger ones.

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aloges
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
You know of course that federal regulations (in the form of CAFE standards) created the SUV craze in the first place?

Yep. But unlike others, I don't think that government itself is the problem. Incompetence and bowing to lobbyism are the issues - I very much doubt A) that CAFE is the best way to reduce consumption and B) that SUVs would have been exempt from CAFE standards if not for lobbyism.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 20):
Yep. But unlike others, I don't think that government itself is the problem. Incompetence and bowing to lobbyism are the issues - I very much doubt A) that CAFE is the best way to reduce consumption and B) that SUVs would have been exempt from CAFE standards if not for lobbyism.

You can't stop lobbyism. It's gonna happen. You will always have people holding their hand out (maybe with cash in it) for government favors. It is government's job - no - their duty to say no, and to resist the proposals for complex, counterproductive solutions (such as CAFE), in favor of the simple, direct approach (such as increasing gasoline taxes).
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Polot
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):

100% behind you on that one. You know of course that federal regulations (in the form of CAFE standards) created the SUV craze in the first place? They imposed restrictions on family cars, and left this big gaping loophole where if the automakers made family cars out of trucks, so instead of pushing everyone towards smaller cars, they pushed them towards bigger ones.

Of course now whenever they try and get stricter about SUV emissions you get people screaming about how the government is intervening in their lives and they should be able to buy whatever they want when they want it.

Quoting aloges (Reply 20):
B) that SUVs would have been exempt from CAFE standards if not for lobbyism.

The main reason that they are under a different standard is that when the CAFE laws were built SUVs were primarily used as work trucks, or as more recreational vehicles (hence the title SUV); they were too uncomfortable for most people for everyday use. Congress didn't want to hurt the businesses so they made the SUVs exempt from the stricter CAFE laws. Then the automakers learned how much money you can make catering SUVs to the mainstream public with Ford's success with the Explorer....
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 22):
Of course now whenever they try and get stricter about SUV emissions you get people screaming about how the government is intervening in their lives and they should be able to buy whatever they want when they want it.

Well, yeah, they push them towards bigger cars and then penalize the consumers for it.

If I had been dictator, I would have announce that, starting 5 years hence (to give people time to adjust their driving habits, sell off the gas guzzler they just bought while avoiding a fire sale, and give time for the automakers to design new cars), federal gas taxes would go up by X% per year, gradually. The purpose is not revenue, it's to push people towards buying more economical cars. Human behavior is to avoid penalties even if they are not in place yet, but is known to be coming.
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 19):
You know of course that federal regulations (in the form of CAFE standards) created the SUV craze in the first place? They imposed restrictions on family cars, and left this big gaping loophole where if the automakers made family cars out of trucks, so instead of pushing everyone towards smaller cars, they pushed them towards bigger ones.

Plain old revisionist BS! The "family car" had long since been abandoned in favor of the minivan, and then there was the backlash against soccer moms and their minvans, so then it was on to the SUV, which thrived for a buying cycle or two, but are now totally being beat down due to their high gas cost and awkward handling, not CAFE. People know where to get their Expeditions and Yukons and Escalades and MXxyzs right now, as they have over the last few years, but they just don't want them, CAFE or not!
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aloges
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 2:13 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
You can't stop lobbyism. It's gonna happen.

...but you can elect a government whose members fulfill

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
their duty to say no

if you want.   That's my main point.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 2:27 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
Plain old revisionist BS! The "family car" had long since been abandoned in favor of the minivan

The minivan was a success, but not nearly as much as the SUV. Perhaps for the simple reason that men generally never wanted to be seen driving one.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
People know where to get their Expeditions and Yukons and Escalades and MXxyzs right now, as they have over the last few years, but they just don't want them, CAFE or not!

There was a big dip in sales of SUVs when the price of oil spiked, but you have more SUVs sold now than ever before. The number of SUVs sold in the US is close to equal to the number of cars sold - a far cry from the early 70s, when the only SUVs (our Light Trucks) on the road were owned by farmers, plumbers and the odd hunter.

Hell, even Bentley and Lambo are getting into the SUV field. Companies that used to make cars and trucks in the US now sell ONLY trucks here. So far this year, full-size SUV sales have increased 19%, beating overall industry growth of 17%. The full-size SUV category is composed of large body-on-frame SUVs, like the Chevy Tahoe and Suburban.

And this is in spite of Obama's drastic cranking up of CAFE standards. The proof is right there. CAFE doesn't work. If you want to push people towards more economical cars, the price of fuel is the only way to go (regardless of political ramifications.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 3:44 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
And this is in spite of Obama's drastic cranking up of CAFE standards. The proof is right there. CAFE doesn't work. If you want to push people towards more economical cars, the price of fuel is the only way to go (regardless of political ramifications.

CAFE should also apply to SUV's, then it would work as intended, allowing the SUV loophole has compromised the system. If CAFE was applied then SUV's like the new Mercedes ML250 CDi would be selling like McDonalds hotcakes to fat people in the US.
 
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
The minivan was a success, but not nearly as much as the SUV.

Regardless, it is what killed off the "family car".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
There was a big dip in sales of SUVs when the price of oil spiked, but you have more SUVs sold now than ever before. The number of SUVs sold in the US is close to equal to the number of cars sold - a far cry from the early 70s, when the only SUVs (our Light Trucks) on the road were owned by farmers, plumbers and the odd hunter.

The category of "minivan" was similarly tiny, the VW micro-bus is about all I can recall in that time frame.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Hell, even Bentley and Lambo are getting into the SUV field.

And they are way too late, that ship has sailed.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
So far this year, full-size SUV sales have increased 19%, beating overall industry growth of 17%. The full-size SUV category is composed of large body-on-frame SUVs, like the Chevy Tahoe and Suburban.

Which proves my point that the SUV is doing just fine regardless of CAFE.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
And this is in spite of Obama's drastic cranking up of CAFE standards.

I guess he isn't the only one in favor of CAFE:

Quote:

On December 19, 2007, President George W. Bush rendered the court judgment obsolete by signing the Energy Independence and Security Act, which set a goal for the national fuel economy standard of 35 miles per gallon (mpg) by 2020. This would increase the fuel economy standards by 40 percent and save the United States billions of gallons of fuel.[31] This is the first legislative change to the CAFE standard since it was created in 1975

You keep trying to make this be about Obama, but the hero of the right, GWB, was on board with CAFE.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
CAFE doesn't work. If you want to push people towards more economical cars, the price of fuel is the only way to go (regardless of political ramifications.

Google sez: "In April 2007, the US Supreme Court ruled 5-4 that carbon dioxide is a pollutant as defined by the Clean Air Act and that the EPA has the authority to regulate carbon dioxide emissions from automobiles and other vehicles."

Congress has given the EPA has the mandate to reduce pollution, and both the Bush and Obama administrations are acting accordingly. If the right wanted to do otherwise, they had eight years of opportunities with GWB at the helm to change it.

Increasing the price of oil will either generate windfall profits for big oil and speculators, or increase taxes, which are not good things in my book.

CAFE encourages the auto industry to innovate, which is what I thought conservatives wanted.
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BMI727
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 4:48 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 22):
The main reason that they are under a different standard is that when the CAFE laws were built SUVs were primarily used as work trucks, or as more recreational vehicles (hence the title SUV); they were too uncomfortable for most people for everyday use. Congress didn't want to hurt the businesses so they made the SUVs exempt from the stricter CAFE laws. Then the automakers learned how much money you can make catering SUVs to the mainstream public with Ford's success with the Explorer....

That's not exactly why it happened. SUVs used to be for work and offroading, you're right about that. But it wasn't the car companies that drove SUVs to their current mainstream, suburban commuter status. It was consumers who had their large sedans and wagons taken away or downsized by CAFE and the gas guzzler tax. People started buying SUVs for the same reasons they always bought large cars and station wagons in the past.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
CAFE should also apply to SUV's, then it would work as intended, allowing the SUV loophole has compromised the system

If they were smart they'd just scrap the whole thing and let people spend what they want to spend on gas.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
And they are way too late, that ship has sailed.

Not at all, Bentley will sell all the SUV's they can produce, and this isn't Lambo's first foray into the SUV market, they can make a pretty good claim as the first producer of a performance SUV, they were just a decade or so early.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
If they were smart they'd just scrap the whole thing and let people spend what they want to spend on gas.

If the govt considerably upped fuel taxes then (maybe) scrapping CAFE would work. Fuel is way to cheap in the US IMO.
 
BMI727
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 5:17 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30):
If the govt considerably upped fuel taxes then (maybe) scrapping CAFE would work. Fuel is way to cheap in the US IMO.

That's completely the wrong thing to do. Gas costs what it costs. Taxes are a way for the government to raise the money it needs to operate and should not be a mechanism to influence people's decisions and restrict freedoms.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 5:18 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
And they are way too late, that ship has sailed.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
Which proves my point that the SUV is doing just fine regardless of CAFE.

so what's it to be, the ship has sailed or the SUV is doing just fine?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30):
If the govt considerably upped fuel taxes then (maybe) scrapping CAFE would work. Fuel is way to cheap in the US IMO.

Yes, up the fuel taxes to penalize those people who live in rural areas that do a majority of the work in agriculture in this country. Exactly what we need. I always have to remind myself that non-Americans generally have no concept of the size of our country and the extremely low population densities. And the lack of public transit because it would be so astronomically expensive that no one would use it.

-DiamondFlyer
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Kiwirob
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Taxes are a way for the government to raise the money it needs to operate and should not be a mechanism to influence people's decisions and restrict freedoms.

Govt's since time began have been using taxes to influence peoples decisions and restrict freedoms, the only way to get around this is to drop tax completely.
 
aloges
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 33):
Yes, up the fuel taxes to penalize those people who live in rural areas that do a majority of the work in agriculture in this country.

Exempt agricultural equipment from the higher taxes. We've been doing that in Germany for ages and while there is of course some fraud, it's better than keeping one low fuel tax for everyone.

Expensive fuel helps reduce urban sprawl which IMHO is something the US could really do with.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 33):
Yes, up the fuel taxes to penalize those people who live in rural areas that do a majority of the work in agriculture in this country.

Just do what most other countries do and have untaxed fuel for agricultural use, then fine the crap out of people who use untaxed fuel in their passenger vehicles. Also farm fuel will be mostly diesel so I can't see how farmers would be disadvantaged.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
We've been doing that in Germany for ages and while there is of course some fraud

I've been pulled over a couple of times for a fuel check, the cost of being found with red diesel in your tank is about 5,000 NOK, plus the residue from red diesel lasts for months.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
That's completely the wrong thing to do. Gas costs what it costs. Taxes are a way for the government to raise the money it needs to operate and should not be a mechanism to influence people's decisions and restrict freedoms.

Is it not legitimate to use taxes to encourage certain behavior and discourage others? If it weren't for taxes, A pack of Marlboro would cost less than $1. Tobacco and Alcohol taxes (so-called sin taxes) have been around for ages. We also use taxes to encourage people to buy homes, health insurance, and get an education.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Gas costs what it costs.

Does it ? Does it currently pay for all the military action in the middle east, patrolling of the seas to protect the tankers ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Revelation
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 7:44 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
It was consumers who had their large sedans and wagons taken away or downsized by CAFE and the gas guzzler tax. People started buying SUVs for the same reasons they always bought large cars and station wagons in the past.

BS! The large sedans and wagons largely got torpedoed after the 70s Arab Oil Boycott. Sure, you could still get them, but that was the real tipping point away from the land yachts of the 50s-70s. CAFE existed, but it was way behind the curve in terms of where consumers buying preferences were.

It's total revisionist crap to try to link the death of the land yacht to CAFE.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
so what's it to be, the ship has sailed or the SUV is doing just fine?

Both - I feel new entrants won't make much if any money in the classic SUV (not CUV) market, and that clearly CAFE hasn't killed the SUV because those that want them can get them.
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
mham001
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Oh the EPA - now THAT's an objective source these days


Sorry, should have been http://www.eere.energy.gov/

[Edited 2012-05-03 13:29:59]
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
Exempt agricultural equipment from the higher taxes.

It already is, at least for off road use. Doesn't change the fact that there are massive areas of this country that are hours away from large cities.

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
Expensive fuel helps reduce urban sprawl which IMHO is something the US could really do with.

Ah yes, there it comes, let the Europeans tell us how to run our country. We will live our lives how we want and you live yours how you want. Clearly, you don't understand how nice it is to live in the suburban areas of the cities of the US. Space to live and do things, rather than staring out the building at another building, living in an area full of crime, criminals and generally dirty areas.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
aloges
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 9:29 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 42):
Ah yes, there it comes, let the Europeans tell us how to run our country.

I think the same about urban sprawl anywhere, this just happened to be a thread about the US. Stop whining.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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Polot
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 9:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
Both - I feel new entrants won't make much if any money in the classic SUV (not CUV) market, and that clearly CAFE hasn't killed the SUV because those that want them can get them.

Bentley and Lamborghini will easily make it work because there are more than enough people out there who will buy their products based purely on the badge, aside from any luxury and performance benefits that their SUVs will have. If you can afford a $200,000 SUV, CAFE laws have absolutely nothing to do with your purchasing decisions when it comes to cars.
 
B777LRF
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 10:27 pm

The SUV is, by and large, an idiotic offering.

You don't really get a lot more of usable space inside an ML or X5 than you do in an E-class or 5-series wagon. You do get the option of fitting a third row of seats, which is great if you're regularly carrying around midgets, but not really of any serious use. But you do get to sit up high. Of course you pay for that by vastly degraded handling, stiffer suspension to massage your buttocks in an uncomfortable fashion and a fuel consumption that brings smiles all around the Persian Gulf. I understand why people with inferiority complexes would like to sit up high and sneer at the rif-raf, and I understand if people with enough money not to give a damn and large superiority complexes to nurse, would buy one.

It's still an idiotic idea, and much as I dislike on an elemental level the SUVs, they have brought something good. And that good is, specifically, making enough money for Porsche to fund an insane amount of increasingly bonkers 911 versions, sub-versions and sub-sub versions with touches of scaffolding in the back. They've also made masses of money for BMW, and I'd like to pretend some of that went to the M-dudes and was converted into V10 and V8 glory. Wonderful stuff, and for that I'm almost ready to forgive the SUVs. But only almost.

As for the new Maserati, Lamborghini and Bentley offerings: They'll fly out the door, and they'll fly mostly in an easterly direction. Russia, Middle East and China - that's where 80% of them are going to end up, paid for at an insane profit margin. And if just some of those profits would make their way into making the Gallardo replacement just a bit more bonkers, or funding the bolting-on of a V12 to the front end of a GranTurismo then, well, who can complain really?
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
mham001
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 45):
I'd like to pretend some of that went to the M-dudes and was converted into V10 and V8 glory.

That all seems a little hypocritical. Fact is, most suv's get better mileage than most hot cars with V12, 10 and 8's. And if you are going to trash suv's for carrying capacity, well.... just sayin'.
 
aloges
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Thu May 03, 2012 10:54 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 46):
Fact is, most suv's get better mileage than most hot cars with V12, 10 and 8's.

Source, please.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
mham001
Posts: 4180
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Fri May 04, 2012 12:51 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 47):
Source, please.

Help yourself.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/powerSearch.jsp

Plenty of interesting things to see there. Lays a lot of myths to rest.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11090
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RE: Audi’s U.S. Diesel Strategy

Fri May 04, 2012 12:56 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
Expensive fuel helps reduce urban sprawl which IMHO is something the US could really do with.

I like urban sprawl. The government should not be manipulating where I live, what I buy, or what I drive.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
Is it not legitimate to use taxes to encourage certain behavior and discourage others?

No it's not legitimate. This is all very simple: I don't care what you smoke. I don't care what you drink. I don't care what you eat. I don't care what you drive. And I don't think anyone should care what I smoke, drink, eat or drive. WHAT'S SO DIFFICULT ABOUT THAT!?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
Does it ? Does it currently pay for all the military action in the middle east, patrolling of the seas to protect the tankers ?

The government is free to change their policies.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
The large sedans and wagons largely got torpedoed after the 70s Arab Oil Boycott. Sure, you could still get them, but that was the real tipping point away from the land yachts of the 50s-70s.

Then you're agreeing with me. If people stopped buying all these big cars before CAFE existed the obviously the market is working perfectly and CAFE is therefore utterly useless.

That said, the embargo was in 1973 and CAFE came into being in 1975, so well within the life of a car. If you bought a big car before CAFE, had no problems with paying more for gas, and wanted to replace that with something else large, you would buy an SUV since large cars were on their way out.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 45):
The SUV is, by and large, an idiotic offering.

Then don't buy one and leave everyone else alone.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?

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