zrs70
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Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 5:59 am

I grew up in a very patriotic family. Every year, on the 4th of July, my grandfather would read us the Declaration of Independance. He would remind us never to take for granted our freedoms.

And I never have.

What's odd is that many think I am a Republican because I am patriotic (as if the definition of democrat is to be cynical and against the government).

Who else here is patriotic for your home country?
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 6:17 am

I have massive love for my home country. The relationship and reasons are very personal as it relates to subtle nuances of the people, culture, history, and land that have a specific appeal to me. As this love is exclusive to me, I do not expect others to feel the same way. I don't even expect others to love it at all, (or at least don't really care). This is at odds with many of my countrymen, who seem to be on a lifelong mission to try and prove to the world that NZ is really something special. Personally I would prefer that it's kept secret!!

Is this patriotism? I'm not sure. Probably no. Patriotism to me implies a more collectivist psyche, rallying around things like the declaration of independance or shared experiences. I think I only experience this when watching our rugby team play, (or our Cricket team.....but this usually erodes our sense of patriotism)
 
ajd1992
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 9:21 am

I'm not patriotic. Well, not much - I'm glad of my political freedom and I live in a first world country. I'm not a fan of some of the people in the country though, especially the moron running it. I do consider myself English - not British.

At risk of opening a massive can of worms here - it seems some people in the UK take patriotism as racism against immigrants. Maybe it's just me, but that's my thought on it.
 
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moo
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 9:23 am

I'm not "patriotic" because it seems far too much like a religion to me.
 
speedbird217
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:00 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
it seems some people in the UK take patriotism as racism against immigrants

It's the same in Germany. Probably even worse. The World Cup 2006 changed things a little, but there are still Germans that are offended if they see a German flag. That's just stupid. Aside from the fact that patriotism in Germany is virtually non-existent, I have nothing really to identify with in Germany. I feel a stranger in my own country and get along way better with people from the UK and the US.

I lived in the US for a while and I would say that I was patriotic there. I felt home there from day one, have loads of American friends, had a traditional American Thanksgiving in a family and so on...
My plan is to go back anyway, and stay for good. So I would say that I am patriotic - but only for America, even though I wasn't born there. Love the country, the people and their identity, and I felt like I belong there for the first time in my life.
 
na
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:07 pm

I am somewhat proud, or better said, glad to be German, but patriotic in an oldfashioned sense, no. Patriotism is often close to chauvinism, and many so-called patriots are not very tolerant to foreigners and think they are a better kind of people. I put a little german flag on top of my TV during football world cups, but thats it.
 
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moo
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
it seems some people in the UK take patriotism as racism against immigrants.

My personal issue with it (the concept of modern patriotism) is that you can see it routinely being used as a weapon to silence dissenters and those who don't agree with someones opinion.

For example, in the US if you don't support the troops, you are unpatriotic - and a lot of people are easily cast as not supporting the troops when infact its the wars the troops are fighting that they don't support. So the cries of patriotism are being used to try to force people to either support a particular opinion or silence them from the debate.

Lots of examples like that.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:48 pm

Every time I cut a goddamned check to the IRS and DC government I'm patriotic.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
NoUFO
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 12:54 pm

I am pleased to be European, pleased to be German.

My 'patriotism' can be seen in the fact that I wish those who moved from e.g. Spain to Germany during the recent economic crisis well. I hope they get along well with customs and habits, the language, the cuisine and the weather.
At the same time I hope Spain and other countries recover quickly.

I want Europe to be (at least one of) the best place(s) to live in which is probably already the case, but there is certainly room for improvements. I want Europe to be an engine for science, freedom, human rights, protection of the environment, and - not to forget - savoir-vivre.

And if Canada, Australia or the U.S. scores better: Cheers to you and a tip at the hat.

If you call that patriotism, I am fine with that.
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rfields5421
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 1:51 pm

My father and two of his brothers served in combat in WWII.

My mother's brother was killed in Belgium in Feb 1945 while in the US Army.

Most of my older male cousins served in either the Army or National Guard, though one was a USMC F-4 B/N for five years.

I joined the US Navy in 1972, and served until I retired in 1992. I had the pleasure of serving ashore with the Marines in Lebanon for much of the later half of 1983.

My son was in the US Army from 1997-2003 and has a combat disability after coming home from Iraq. My daughter married a US Army vet.

My grandsons and granddaughters have been raised to respect the US military and two want to serve when they are old enough.

I don't know if that makes us patriotic, but I've seen violent changes of government, countries where people starving is normal, supposedly free major nations where different political views are suppressed and people are shunned.

The United States is not a perfect nation - and in my opinion the increasing polarization of the people trying to exclude others from our nation is a dangerous trend.

But it is still the best in the world in my opinion, and I and my family stand by this nation, our president - whether or not we voted for him - and our people.

I consider myself a political conservative - and some folks one issue folks don't.

I don't care because I believe in the oath I took to defend this nation and its constitution.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 1:53 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
At risk of opening a massive can of worms here - it seems some people in the UK take patriotism as racism against immigrants. Maybe it's just me, but that's my thought on it.

There is a big difference between patriotism and nationalism.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
us330
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
There is a big difference between patriotism and nationalism

Unfortunately, too many people tend to forget that, and see the two as synonyms--especially in our current state of political discourse.
 
ajd1992
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 2:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
There is a big difference between patriotism and nationalism.

I know that but unfortunately, a lot of people (especially immigrants) don't.

There were immigrants who burned poppies on Remembrance Sunday a few years ago. Completely distasteful yet because they were immigrants it was "ok" because it's a sin to lay the law down if they're an immigrant because it's automatically racist  

I'm not a racist in anyway shape or form, but if you are going to disrespect my country because you don't like it, you know where Dover is. I hate it.
 
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kngkyle
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 4:06 pm

I'm patriotic but not to the point where I'm ignorant in believing the US is #1 in everything, like many Americans seem to think...
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 4:13 pm

Lets say I'm patriotic, because I love my country but Im also realistic to know its limitations.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
There is a big difference between patriotism and nationalism.

Out of curiosity, where do you draw the line?

I once remember GWB saying that he'd never apologize for the United States. My answer is: "What if we did something wrong?"

There is something I call fundamentalist patriotism. That's the view that your country can do no wrong and that it is a priori the best country in the world. There is a LOT of fundamentalist patriotism in the USA and that general sentiment really hampers our international relations.
-Doc Lightning-

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2707200X
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 7:28 pm

I am patriotic and I love the United States of America and all good that she stands for.

My patriotism is more within. My stand with this country is not jingoistic, not political, not religious, not for product advertising not about assimilation for the sake of assimilation and is not about draping everything with Old Glory or supporting anti flag burning measurements though I am the last guy who would ever want to burn one.

It is (in my view) about to freedom to associate peaceably, freedom of religion and from religion, freedom of responsible speech whether I like it or not and freedom of the individual person to own, to do, to like or dislike and be who you are and be what you want to be.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 7:46 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 14):
Lets say I'm patriotic, because I love my country but Im also realistic to know its limitations.

That sums up my feelings as well. I get very disturbed by the 'My country, right or wrong' attitude that some people seem to see patriotism as ( usually conveniently forgetting that the full quote is "my country, right or wrong, if right, to be kept right, if wrong , to be set right' ) . One of the great things about being in my country is that I have the right ( perhaps even a duty) to speak up if I think we are doing something wrong.

Flag waving , under the guise of patriotism, always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable, it just seems a lazy knee jerk action .
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 17):

Flag waving , under the guise of patriotism, always makes me feel a bit uncomfortable, it just seems a lazy knee jerk action .

Hardly, it's usually an aggressive action, like Bible-thumping.

"You're going to do it my way and agree with me or you're un-American."
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Dreadnought
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 8:30 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
There is something I call fundamentalist patriotism. That's the view that your country can do no wrong and that it is a priori the best country in the world. There is a LOT of fundamentalist patriotism in the USA and that general sentiment really hampers our international relations.

That's more along the lines of nationalism. There is some of that, but there is also the other kind too.

Let's say your daughter gets into trouble. It's her own fault - she got careless, did something stupid, but by God she is your daughter and you would do anything you possibly can to help her out, in spite of the fact that you know perfectly well that she deserved it. That's patriotism. It's not blind, but it's love.
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Stratofish
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 8:31 pm

Not patriotic at all, Patriotism is a strange concept to me that I just cannot grasp. I don't know but I am just not proud of "my country" not because I despise where I live but because this country is not my own accomplishment, if you understand what I mean.

A flag to me is just that, a piece of cloth. I have never ever felt something or shivered at the sight of a flag. I do not think it is right to burn flags as a sign of disapproval but if you want to go burn the German flag go right ahead, I am really not bothered at all.

That said I feel strangely well, saying I am European and don't say anything against my hometown.  
Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
He would remind us never to take for granted our freedoms.

And I never have.

Nothing wrong with that, but I don't know if appreciation of democracy makes one a patriot. I DO appreciate living in a free democratic society but I am hardly a patriot.
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Ken777
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 04, 2012 8:40 pm

I'm patriotic, but in a quiet way.

I served in the Navy for 4 years and consider it to be as important as anything I have done in life.

I also believe we are one Nation. I served in the US Navy, not the Texas Navy (I was born in Texas), nor the Oklahoma Navy (where I entered the service from).

I'm not a excited flag waver, and I tend to get rather angry at those who wrap themselves in the Flag to push there political demands. (You can read Tea Party into that if you want.)

I do, however, wish to have a Flag on my coffin when I go. Nothing fancy, but a reminder for all ho come to my funeral that I did love this country. Maybe it will help renew their sense of patriotism a bit.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
I do consider myself English - not British.

I had to smile at that. My wife was born in Dundee and considers herself a Scot far more than a Brit.
 
NASCARAirforce
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 4:24 am

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
What's odd is that many think I am a Republican because I am patriotic (as if the definition of democrat is to be cynical and against the government).

Depends who is in charger - right now its the Republicans cynical and against the government.

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
For example, in the US if you don't support the troops, you are unpatriotic - and a lot of people are easily cast as not supporting the troops when infact its the wars the troops are fighting that they don't support. So the cries of patriotism are being used to try to force people to either support a particular opinion or silence them from the debate.

I believe that being a patriot is wanting what is best for your country - but we all have a difference of opinion. Some would say that OWS is patriotic while others being a pro war hawk is patriotic.

I don't believe that what the Fox News media tries to tell you as being a patriot - wrapping yourself in a flag, supporting wars and throwing the term unAmerican around at anyone who thinks differently.

I don't support my government, I don't support its wars, I don't support its methods of taxation, I don't support its bailouts of the banks and Wallstreet or its stimulus packages. I don't support its "Patriot Act" or its so called War on Terror or its Department of Homeland Security - everything has strayed way too far from the Constitution and what the founding fathers envisioned. Am I more patriotic than that chickenhawk that never put on a uniform but cheers about every Middle Eastern Country we bomb? Am I more patriotic than Sean Hannity who thinks we should waterboard everybody? Am I more patriotic than an Occupy Wallstreet Protester?

No - everyone has their own idea what they think is best for their country.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 7:59 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 17):
One of the great things about being in my country is that I have the right ( perhaps even a duty) to speak up if I think we are doing something wrong.

It sure is.....In a democracy its a welcome sign....
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 2:54 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
There is a big difference between patriotism and nationalism.

Try explaning that to some of my fellow countrymen... I am a patriotic Austrian, however, I've been looked upon as if I were a Nazi because I know all three stanzas of our national anthem. I am in no way a nationalist, national socialist, or racist - in fact, I am very pro EU (yes, still) and cannot stand the "foreigners out" campaigns of the far right political wing.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 4:04 pm

No. Every single nation state on this planet is a temporary abberation that's going to dissappear sooner or later, so I don't see any point in attaching myself too closely to any of them simply because I happen to live there/have family members who come from there. I'm confident that our better qualities come from the resilliance of the human spirit...something I've seen in people from many possible walks of life/places in the world and therefore, not something that's born of political or economic privilege. I'd much rather focus my connections to that than any particular (and again, very temporary) social structure.
 
Asturias
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 4:33 pm

I am a patriot, I recognize the nation and the importance of the community I live in and deny any ideas of a "one world" a "global village" and such naive nonsense.

I am not "anti-immigrant" nor "pro-immigrant", but rather accept it as the air I breath that people move. Always have, always will, but the hard truth is that all people immigrant or not need to adapt and accept the community they live in.

asturias
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Dreadnought
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 24):
Try explaning that to some of my fellow countrymen... I am a patriotic Austrian, however, I've been looked upon as if I were a Nazi because I know all three stanzas of our national anthem. I am in no way a nationalist, national socialist, or racist - in fact, I am very pro EU (yes, still) and cannot stand the "foreigners out" campaigns of the far right political wing.

I think there has been a concerted effort in Europe to eliminate nationalistic tendencies through the education system and media since WWII, with the idea that nationalism caused many of the bloody conflicts in Europe over the past centuries, by eliminating the whole concept of national superiority, manifest destiny, and entitlement. While I applaud the intent, perhaps they went a bit too far, and in eliminating the negatives of nationalism, they also killed off much of the good values that patriotism provides - the willingness to see yourself as part of an extended family, where you help and defend your fellow citizens. The same thing is going on in the US, where patriotism is often ridiculed.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 4:35 pm

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

--Samuel Johnson
Ain't I a stinker?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 5:11 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 28):

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

--Samuel Johnson

"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."

--Charles de Gaulle
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
SuperCaravelle
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 20):
Not patriotic at all, Patriotism is a strange concept to me that I just cannot grasp. I don't know but I am just not proud of "my country" not because I despise where I live but because this country is not my own accomplishment, if you understand what I mean.

A flag to me is just that, a piece of cloth. I have never ever felt something or shivered at the sight of a flag. I do not think it is right to burn flags as a sign of disapproval but if you want to go burn the German flag go right ahead, I am really not bothered at all.

That said I feel strangely well, saying I am European and don't say anything against my hometown.

Nothing wrong with that, but I don't know if appreciation of democracy makes one a patriot. I DO appreciate living in a free democratic society but I am hardly a patriot.

For myself, I have to agree with this. I am glad I live in an organized (sort of) nation, in which we have freedom of expression, religion and color. But I'm not cheering for our national football/soccer team just because they were born on the same patch of soil. I'm not negative about my country, belittling it, but I'm quite indifferent. I can see the point why people would be patriotic, but for myself I cannot love a piece of land simply because I was born there. On estimate half of my friends are foreign and I've lived in other countries as well, and I didn't feel better or worse there.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 26):
I am a patriot, I recognize the nation and the importance of the community I live in and deny any ideas of a "one world" a "global village" and such naive nonsense. I am not "anti-immigrant" nor "pro-immigrant", but rather accept it as the air I breath that people move. Always have, always will, but the hard truth is that all people immigrant or not need to adapt and accept the community they live in. asturias

I can also, partly probably, agree with this. It's better for a society to have some basic rules and rights that are the same for everyone, regardless of ethnicity, sex or religion. Not because "ours is better than theirs", simply because it's better for the society we live in.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 24):
Try explaning that to some of my fellow countrymen... I am a patriotic Austrian, however, I've been looked upon as if I were a Nazi because I know all three stanzas of our national anthem. I am in no way a nationalist, national socialist, or racist - in fact, I am very pro EU (yes, still) and cannot stand the "foreigners out" campaigns of the far right political wing.

I'm still in serious doubt about the right wing political thing. In the Netherlands, we have mr Wilders and I think both his way of expressing himself and his message are disastrous for society (for people not familiar with him, he's our far right xenophobic "Party of the Freedom (of one part of society)" leader). He is smart enough to do it in a democratic system though, without breaking the law. Like I said, I think the world would be a better place without his opinion, but does that mean his opinion shouldn't be heard? That would be undemocratic and a lack of freedom as well, to not grant the freedom to people to express their voice about limiting freedom and discriminating (in which, in this case I mean the non-value-attached meaning of the world, making a difference between if you want) parts of society.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."--Charles de Gaulle

Forgive me for it, but I always have to chuckle a bit when I see American people quoting Charles de Gaulle  
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 05, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."

That still raises the question of what is meant by 'your own people'?


Who are my "own people" ? I am not sure. Are they the people, who, by accident of birth I share one of my passports with ? Are they my friends and family ? People of the same sexuality as me ? The entire human race ?

When I read a story about a gay Zimbabwean being persecuted for his or her sexuality I feel a much stronger sense of connection to that person than I do when I read a story about a 'patriotic' New Zealander who complains that "our" country is "over run with Asians these days".
 
Ps76
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Thu May 10, 2012 4:07 pm

Hi!

I'm an Assyrian living in the UK who was born in the UK and I don't feel particularly patriotic either as an Assyrian or for the country I live in. That's cool that some people feel patriotic but it just doesn't cross my mind much. Maybe when I get older that will change.

Many thanks,

Pierre
 
bogota
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Thu May 10, 2012 6:58 pm

Patriotism comes from being proud of the environment you are part of which in many ways represents what you are as part of a collective environment. As a Latin American in general and Colombian in particular patriotism is something held quite strongly by most of us, and in many ways rightfully so as an answer to so many preconceived ideas of how our country is. At the same time with such a huge discrimination especially by Europeans and Anglo-North Americans, we Latins tend to be very proud of our origins, our way of life and the beautiful land we inhabit.

That said, this patriotism can easily turn into nationalism as the more uneducated people get fed up with the bully attitude of richer nations and end following leaders whose anti-imperial discourse opens people´s interest in political nationalism.

If the world as a whole were more understanding of others point of view and more respectful of others regardless of their origin or nationality then patriotism could be a simple fact of life that probably would never go beyond cheering flags around.
 
slider
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Thu May 10, 2012 7:53 pm

I know I'll get branded for being jingoistic or worse, but hell yeah, I'm uber-patriotic.

I love this country, warts and all, I love the ideals that we believe as Americans, I love that we can be honest enough about our missteps as we've worked, fought and yes--shed blood--to achieve equality for all.

And I firmly believe in American exceptionalism and think it's time to stop apologizing for it.

In the annals of human history and government, there's never been such an experiment that's been this successful. Countries are temporal, even nationalities and ethnicities, but of everything that's been tried, few have gotten it right and none to the degree of the USA.

The value of the individual, of shared ideals, of liberty and responsibility, of self-government and our foundational principles all give me a tingle that Chris Matthews gets elsewhere.

So yeah, call me a cheerleader all you want. I love my country.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Thu May 10, 2012 9:08 pm

I don't own anything remotely looking like a French flag, but I like seeing the colors on an Air France airliner or during a Patrouille de France show. I think our anthem is barbaric, but I like using all my voice to sing "Aux armes, citoyens" on occasion. I think imposing our view to the world is wrong but wish it would be more effective. I had no say in the matter but I love being French.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
connies4ever
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
Who else here is patriotic for your home country?

Not particularly, except when the Olympic Hockey Tournament (the real one: Men's) is on.

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 1):
I have massive love for my home country.

I'm honest enough with myself that I do not feel inhibited in criticizing my country. For example, the shameful way we treated and are treating aboriginals.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 2):
At risk of opening a massive can of worms here - it seems some people in the UK take patriotism as racism against immigrants. Maybe it's just me, but that's my thought on it.

Not just the UK. Immigrants are often massively scapegoated. California and Arizona's economies would grind very quickly to a halt without Mexican labour, but it seems every time you turn around there's further restrictions on immigrants, legal or not. They do the jobs 'real' Americans choose not to do. I mean really, if we didn't have Russian women emigrating to Canada, where would our strippers come from ?  Wow!
Quoting moo (Reply 3):
I'm not "patriotic" because it seems far too much like a religion to me

Agreed.

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
My personal issue with it (the concept of modern patriotism) is that you can see it routinely being used as a weapon to silence dissenters and those who don't agree with someones opinion.

Also agreed, and it can easily morph into flat out nationalism, and we've all seen where that can lead.

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
For example, in the US if you don't support the troops, you are unpatriotic -

I live about 20km from Canada's largest military base, and everywhere you go around here, you see "Support the Troops" decals. My opinion, which I normally keep to myself, is that although I support the troops to the extent I want them all back here safe and sound, I do not support the mission in Afghanistan. So I guess by the above definition of patriotism I am unpatriotic. But I'm proud of that.

The Afghan mission has absolutely nothing to do with defending our freedom and making this country safer. In fact it's likely making us less safe. I'm reasonably convinced that before we deployed, almost all Afghans had no idea where Canada was (and I was actually there many years ago, crossing the border from Iran was like going through a time machine). They do now, and likely there will be a terrorist event on home soil at some point. The mission to Afghanistan was a political sop by former PM Chretien to GWB, who wanted us in Iraq. Where the army would have taken large casualties.

I'll go further and say NATO has actually lost their war in Afghanistan. "We" hold not much more ground than in 2003, and cannot depend on our Afghan "allies" loyalty, let alone competence. It calls into question the raison d'etre for NATO itself. America is in the process of declaring a tie and going home. Kind of like Vietnam.

A colossal waste. Al-Qaeda would have been better taken down by a combination of CIA 'black ops' people and special forces. Find them, kill them all, get out.
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stasisLAX
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Thu May 10, 2012 10:58 pm

I love my country - I (unfortunately) strongly dislike my government. No longer patriotic, now severely pragmatic. Why? NDAA and the so-called "Patriot Act" have taken alot of patriotic pride from me....
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 11, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 36):
Not particularly, except when the Olympic Hockey Tournament (the real one: Men's) is on.

I actually go for Team Sweden because they have the most Redwings playing for them usually. Although all that will change since Olympic hockey won't be using pro players in 2014 - so I might go for Team America then.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 36):
you see "Support the Troops" decals. My opinion, which I normally keep to myself, is that although I support the troops to the extent I want them all back here safe and sound, I do not support the mission in Afghanistan. So I guess by the above definition of patriotism I am unpatriotic. But I'm proud of that.

I have said that too - to me Support Our Troops means to bring them home NOW - so they can be with their families and they are out of harms way.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 36):
The Afghan mission has absolutely nothing to do with defending our freedom and making this country safer. In fact it's likely making us less safe. I'm reasonably convinced that before we deployed, almost all Afghans had no idea where Canada was (and I was actually there many years ago, crossing the border from Iran was like going through a time machine). They do now, and likely there will be a terrorist event on home soil at some point. The mission to Afghanistan was a political sop by former PM Chretien to GWB, who wanted us in Iraq. Where the army would have taken large casualties.

I got so tired of hearing that the troops are there "Fighting for our Freedom". How are they fighting for our freedom being in Iraq or Afghanistan? They are fighting for some Afghanis right to vote. Is it worth our soldiers dying, their kids growing up without a mother or father so some Afghani woman doesn't have to wear a burka anymore?

I hate the propaganda that goes on in times of war "Fighting for Our Freedom", "Freedom Fries", Jeep Patriot, Patriot Act and "Freedom Isn't Free".

Oh and every f***ing Chickenhawk Toby Keith song especially that dumb ass "Angry American" song that someone uses in an airshow act. If I hear Lee Greenwood "Proud to Be an American" one more time I will puke too. I didn't mind that song prior to 9/11 then they played it to death and it became very trite.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 37):
I love my country - I (unfortunately) strongly dislike my government. No longer patriotic, now severely pragmatic. Why? NDAA and the so-called "Patriot Act" have taken alot of patriotic pride from me....

I am not going to get into my conspiracy theories but I too have a strong dislike and distruct for my government whether a republican or democrat is in charge - either way they seem the same to me - both are for growing the government more than it already is. As Jesse "the body" Ventura said "Voting for the Lesser of 2 Evils is still voting for Evil"
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 11, 2012 5:43 am

I love my country and people, full stop. But that does not extend to dying for it -- or even flying the flag. I have no problem with quiet patrtiotism, but I just don't see the point in anything stronger.
 
slider
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 11, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 24):
Try explaning that to some of my fellow countrymen... I am a patriotic Austrian, however, I've been looked upon as if I were a Nazi because I know all three stanzas of our national anthem.

That's a real shame; I often worry what, if any, long term consequences will exist as a result of subjugating people's natural national pride. In Europe especially, where there has *always* been a Balkanization if you will, with various lanugages, countries, sects, etc. I think the postwar campaign to almost eradicate any patriotism, notably in Germany, is an unfortunate thing. I don't think it's natural to squelch that and yet there is a fear--an institutional fear--to overtly demonstrate signs of patriotism in Germany and Austria. To a man, Germans are extremely proud of whot hey are, their country and what they've overcome---showing that shouldn't have a stigma.

I think we're seeing signs of the seams right now with the EU economic row going on. De facto German hegemony may be upon us and that worries some, although I think there ought to be more fear to the failing economies and countries in EU more than the few strong ones. Separate thread topic I know, but I think it's a curious observation when we consider the notion of patriotism.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29):
"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."

--Charles de Gaulle

Perhaps de Gaulle's best line ever. Great quote.
 
flanker
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 11, 2012 2:57 pm

If you want to know what patriotism is and love for country, watch the John Adams HBO mini series.

Yes I am patriotic.
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slider
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 11, 2012 4:16 pm

Quoting flanker (Reply 41):
If you want to know what patriotism is and love for country, watch the John Adams HBO mini series.

Yes I am patriotic

Absolutely! One of the best clips from the series... I love this one...gives me chills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2FAAVPX-jg
 
flanker
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Fri May 11, 2012 5:30 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
Absolutely! One of the best clips from the series... I love this one...gives me chills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2FAA...PX-jg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6caJ...eature=BFa&list=PL29E1EC9C3B28DB2E

that one is especially good, when Adams meets Washington..."not generosity, Mr Adams...duty"

That whole series is absolutely phenomenal! It really captures the spirit of America, the struggles of the founding fathers and why every American should be proud of this land and its principles.

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

sacred honor...something that I think lacks in our world today.

[Edited 2012-05-11 10:30:58]
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NASCARAirforce
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 12, 2012 4:36 am

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 38):
I am not going to get into my conspiracy theories but I too have a strong dislike and distruct for my government whether a republican or democrat is in charge

Wow with my spelling error (distruct) meant to say distrust - I am surprised I didn't have homeland security knocking on my door thinking I meant to say "destruct my government"
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 12, 2012 9:48 am

Do you get a warm feeling in your chest when you hear the National Anthem play or watch the National wave.

If you do.....thats a part of hidden patriotism.....
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connies4ever
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 12, 2012 11:38 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 45):
Do you get a warm feeling in your chest when you hear the National Anthem play or watch the National wave.

If you do.....thats a part of hidden patriotism.....

I actually can't remember all the lyrics ((in English) to "O Canada". French, no problem. But "O Canada"'s lyrics have been changed within the past 25 years or so. So, no, I don't get a warm feeling. More like panic.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
flanker
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 12, 2012 2:59 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 45):
Do you get a warm feeling in your chest when you hear the National Anthem play or watch the National wave.

If you do.....thats a part of hidden patriotism.....

Damn straight I do and its not hidden
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kiwiandrew

RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sat May 12, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 45):
Do you get a warm feeling in your chest when you hear the National Anthem play

No, but I was quite proud of my fellow countrymen and women a number of years ago when they played the national anthem at an outdoor event, and they projected the words on a screen with a little ball bouncing along karaoke style because they knew that many people have little or no idea of the words. The whole 'hand on heart sing your lungs out' thing always makes me a bit uncomfortable ... it's a bit too 'Nuremberg rally' for my liking. The same with flag waving.

Rather than singing and waving flags I would rather feel proud of my country because we decided to accept more refugees, or because we stood up for something we believed was right ( like in the '80s when in spite of extreme pressure from some of our 'friends and allies' our government of the day actually listened to the public when we said that we wanted to be nuclear-free).
 
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pu
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RE: Are You Patriotic?

Sun May 13, 2012 1:08 am

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
For example, in the US if you don't support the troops, you are unpatriotic - and a lot of people are easily cast as not supporting the troops when infact its the wars the troops are fighting that they don't support. So the cries of patriotism are being used to try to force people to either support a particular opinion or silence them from the debate

Everyone understands your point here of course.

But patriotism is just one of the many emotional red herrings used to masquerade political agendas of all kinds.

Many on the left who are in fact suspicious of capitalism, the rich, America and so forth loudly proclaim their devotion to the environment because you can use environmental appeals to constrain capitalists, the rich, and America. So they invoke the environment but their real complaint is with the capitalist, consumerist system and scary environmental catastrophes are the spectre of fear they use to forward their real goals.

Likewise, the right uses patriotism as an excuse for their real agenda of aggressive expansion of their (largely economic) belief system on domestic policies and on foreign threats to their property and financial interests.

There are many other examples, I just wanted to point out that patriotism is hardly unique in being used in the way you describe, and that the left likewise has similar tactics.

Pu

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