windy95
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Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 12:35 pm

Quote:
Florida election authorities are examining about 180,000 people who they say may not be U.S. citizens but are registered to vote in the state, an official said on Friday.



These are legal Aliens only.

Quote:
"We're going to vet a list of 180,000 people to try to come up with a real number," said Chris Cate, a spokesman for Florida's Division of Elections. "We don't want to jump to conclusions without a thorough investigation."

Officials in Florida have so far identified more than 2,600 potential voters who may not be U.S. citizens and sent their information to local election authorities, Cate said

Nearly 1,600 of the voters identified up until now reside in Miami-Dade County, Florida's most populous county, which includes the city of Miami.



2600 so far is way to many already. Hopefully they get these cleared up before the election

Quote:
Cate said some Florida officials have asked the Obama administration to grant the state access to databases maintained by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to help determine who is a citizen.

"We've been requesting access, but have so far been denied," he said.



And this is to try and figure out how many illegals are on the voting rolls. But of course the Obama administration is not helping. Just imagine if they actually tried to follow the laws on the books. Florida can’t check for illegal aliens who registered to vote because the Federal government is not giving Florida access to Immigration and Naturalization Service records which would help identify illegals who have registered to vote.


http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE84A1AF20120511?irpc=932

Funny that Obama is suing states to prevent them from stopping non citizens from voting and then preventing a state from researching illegals who may be voting. And of course we can cue up the always used defense of where is the proof that fraud is happening. Well here it is. Florida was decided by how many votes in 2000?
 
mt99
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
And of course we can cue up the always used defense of where is the proof that fraud is happening. Well here it is. Florida was decided by how many votes in 2000?

This can only mean that illegal aliens gave GWB the election !!

Shocking!. GWB was never our president.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 1:36 pm

You never cease to amaze me, dear Americans.

Over here, we don't know any voter challenges at the polling station. As all residents have to register with the municipal authority when moving somewhere else, the authorities always know who has the voting rights and who hasn't.

Send the voting documents per bulk mailing to all Swiss citizen above 18 years in the municipality. Problem solved by a simple database query.

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Well here it is. Florida was decided by how many votes in 2000?

Yes, this the really amazing thing...


Regards, David
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Aesma
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
These are legal Aliens only.
Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
help identify illegals
Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
researching illegals

Legal aliens or illegal aliens, which is it ?
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cmf
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 2:26 pm

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Florida was decided by how many votes in 2000?

One. cast in Washington.

5 - 4 decision that deadlines are more important than votes. It sealed that the truth will never be none. Something that was already clear since the system was so poor that votes could not be counted accurately.

On top of that they realized the decision was so questionable they stated it can not be used as precedent.
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Superfly
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Legal aliens or illegal aliens, which is it ?

Neither one are allowed to vote in US elections so it really doesn't matter.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
You never cease to amaze me, dear Americans.

People breaking the law and a few corrupt politicians is not unique to the US.

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Funny that Obama is suing states to prevent them from stopping non citizens from voting and then preventing a state from researching illegals who may be voting. And of course we can cue up the always used defense of where is the proof that fraud is happening.

Can this be taken to the US Supreme Court before the election?
Is examining the 2700+ pages of Obamacare keeping them tied up the rest of the year?
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flyingturtle
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 2:57 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
You never cease to amaze me, dear Americans.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
People breaking the law and a few corrupt politicians is not unique to the US.

If there is a way to put myself on the U.S. voter register as an alien... I'd gladly participate in the next election. There should be real safeguards against letting thousands of foreigners vote – something that hasn't been done in FL.

Some situations just beg to be exploited. 
Quoting cmf (Reply 4):
5 - 4 decision that deadlines are more important than votes. It sealed that the truth will never be none. Something that was already clear since the system was so poor that votes could not be counted accurately.

You just remembered me of this little interview: http://www.daveross.com/marklevine.html


David
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Superfly
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:01 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
There should be real safeguards against letting thousands of foreigners vote – something that hasn't been done in FL.

I agree. The fact that the President is blocking every attempt to have clean, honest elections says a lot about where his loyalty is.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:18 pm

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Cate said some Florida officials have asked the Obama administration to grant the state access to databases maintained by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to help determine who is a citizen.

"We've been requesting access, but have so far been denied," he said.

LOL, why am I not surprised.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
Over here, we don't know any voter challenges at the polling station. As all residents have to register with the municipal authority when moving somewhere else, the authorities always know who has the voting rights and who hasn't.

Switzerland has a long history of being well-organized. Switzerland is the only country in the world with a "Place of Origin" system, and the system of "depositing your papers" when you move, that ensures that a person's status is well tracked. I can't imagine if they tried to do that here.
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Revelation
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
Over here, we don't know any voter challenges at the polling station. As all residents have to register with the municipal authority when moving somewhere else, the authorities always know who has the voting rights and who hasn't.

Send the voting documents per bulk mailing to all Swiss citizen above 18 years in the municipality. Problem solved by a simple database query.

Note that in the US we have "state's rights" which get in the way of your kind of solution.

Also the small problem of getting the 300 million residents living in 50 different states and tens of thousands of municipalities all into that single database.

The closest thing we have to such a thing is the US Census, but the accuracy of that info is debatable.

There is a law saying that everyone must respond to the Census, but that law is not enforced.

I was doing everything I could do to ignore the last Census but the government knew my weakness and sent a cute girl to my door and before I knew it I was in the Census.

I'm sure you could synthesize the info from the Census, the IRS database, the Social Security database, the state-level motor vehicle databases and perhaps the local property tax databases but it would not really be accurate. The only common key is the social security number, and as far as I know there is no requirement to provide the SSN to the motor vehicle department or the Census, so the only databases that share that info is the Social Security and IRS databases.

Quoting cmf (Reply 4):
the system was so poor that votes could not be counted accurately.

Yes, that is the sad truth.

I'm usually not a cynic, but I really believe the government doesn't want to fix this.

In my locality, voting is simple, cheap and easy to verify and recount. We just use permanent ink to fill in the right dot on the voting form, and it gets optically scanned. The forms are kept, and if there are any issues, you can just rescan the forms.

Instead, after the hanging chad incident, we saw all kinds of dodgy venders showing up with touch screen computer systems. Somehow people think computers are trustworthy, despite myriad data showing that they are not. Instead of handing out forms and permanent ink pens, now you need a computer at each station, and count on the software to not have intended or unintended back doors allowing for hanky-panky, and absolutely no way to do a recount.
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PanHAM
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:27 pm

When I lived in NY I was aüpproached by election helpers for the guy running for mayor, don't remember the name but then it was the city with the deepest pot holes and the shortest mayor. I told them that I am no a citizen and could not vote. No worries the lady said. I did of course not register but oif that's the way it goes.....

As Flyingturtle said, with a system they have in Switzerland and a similar in Germany and many other European states such things cannot happen. Same goes fo false identities and all that works perfectly without finger prints, which we unfortunately have, voluntarily, if a biometric passport is needed. Guess who requested that BS.

It was Abe Beame, I memorized the first name, Beame was googled, I admit.

[Edited 2012-05-13 08:30:13]
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mt99
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Note that in the US we have "state's rights" which get in the way of your kind of solution.

Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
"depositing your papers" when you move, that ensures that a person's status is well tracked. I can't imagine if they tried to do that here.

The TEA Party and the GOP right would go insane!!! They didn't want to fill the census. Imagine asking the Federal Gvnt asking for their movements

is that why Michelle Bachmann wanted to become swiss? so she could be tracked?
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flyingturtle
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:32 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):

I don't know why this is any of the President's business. It's the state's duty to let voters register. They could demand evidence of citizenship (passport or birth certificate).

I just have filled a voter registration form. As ID, they demand my SS number or my driver's licence number. Both aren't proof of citizenship. Dooh... so it depends on another agency proving that I'm a US citizen.

I find your system worthy of improvement.


David
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flyingturtle
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Switzerland has a long history of being well-organized. Switzerland is the only country in the world with a "Place of Origin" system, and the system of "depositing your papers" when you move, that ensures that a person's status is well tracked. I can't imagine if they tried to do that here.

Place of origin does prove citizenship, but it has/had another function – to send that place of origin the bill for social welfare if somebody needs support. Scores of years ago, citizens were even forced to move back to the place of origin if the place of living couldn't support you.

Yes, the U.S. is very afraid of tracking its citizen's movements. But I'd be happy if somebody explained how it is like that in your country.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
is that why Michelle Bachmann wanted to become swiss? so she could be tracked?

   

Only if she lived here. You've got to check out of your municipality and then register with the new one in some weeks time. If you don't do it, the punishment is a mere annoyance though (about 50 US$), but health insurance and failing to file tax returns would be the bigger problem.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Note that in the US we have "state's rights" which get in the way of your kind of solution.

Also the small problem of getting the 300 million residents living in 50 different states and tens of thousands of municipalities all into that single database.

We do it on a municipal level, and it's also where you check in or out as a resident. The average community just has 2400 inhabitants. It's the municipalities that send you the ballots and open the polling stations. Votes are even hand-counted municipally. The local election commission signs the official municipal result and transmits it to the state office...

David
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fr8mech
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 3:56 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.

You're right, it is Florida's problem, with national implications. Let's ask why has the Obama administration 'stonewalled', not only Florida, but Colorado, also? These are states trying to fix a problem.

"The state has requested access to federal citizenship databases maintained by the Department of Homeland Security, which has stonewalled the request of Florida and Colorado as they've hunted for noncitizen voters."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politic...floridas-list-of-potential/1229860

Could it be because

"Hispanic, Democratic and independent-minded voters are the most likely to be targeted in a state hunt to remove thousands of noncitizens from Florida's voting rolls, a Miami Herald computer analysis of elections records has found."?

Same article.

The Florida Department of State, as well as other states, are doing what they are supposed to do...verify that those who are registered to vote are also eligible to vote.

What, exactly, is wrong with that? We have 6 months to an election that will elect a president, potentially tip the balance in The Senate and determine the mood of The People in The House. Not to mention the thousands of local level elections can are affected. It seems to me that the states, at least those that care, are doing their darndest to make sure the election isn't marred by voter fraud. But, the Obama Administration is putting up roadblocks.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 4:00 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Note that in the US we have "state's rights" which get in the way of your kind of solution.

Also the small problem of getting the 300 million residents living in 50 different states and tens of thousands of municipalities all into that single database.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
The TEA Party and the GOP right would go insane!!! They didn't want to fill the census. Imagine asking the Federal Gvnt asking for their movements

You are missing the point. The Swiss system is much more states'-rights oriented than the US.

In Switzerland, you are considered a citizen of a particular municipality, which could be the place you were born (but not always). This is your "place of origin", and it never changes. I am a Swiss citizen, and my place of origin is Lupfig, in the canton of Aarau. It's a small town, population 2,000, and I have never lived there (I have visited twice, for paperwork reasons). I am listed there because of a complicated set of circumstances, but basically one of my ancestors was from there in the late 19th century and it stuck. So I am first and foremost a citizen of Lupfig, and it is up to that municipality to keep track of me. If I ask for a passport, or move to another town and ask to be able to vote there, the request does not go to some central authority in Bern - it goes to the young ladies who work at the Lupfig Rathaus (town hall).

Therefore, one's Swiss citizenship at a national level is by virtue of your being a citizen of a particular municipality, not the other way around.

And if you read the US Constitution, the same basic setup SHOULD be in place in the US.

Quote:
Article IV - The States

Section 2 - State citizens

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

Therefore, if you are a citizen of a state, you have citizen rights of all the states - i.e. you are a US Citizen - NOT the other way round. It should be the states who keep track of who is a citizen, not the federal government, who at most should be given the job of providing a centralized database, but the final authority, in case of conflict or discrepancy, should be the state's records. The states, in turn could, via their own laws or state constitutions, could (and maybe do) assign that responsibility to municipalities, in exactly the same way as Switzerland does.

Unfortunately, the system was never properly developed, and the Federal government now appears to have final authority on who is a citizen or not - in clear violation with the constitution, IMHO.

So no, I don't think the Tea Party and GOP would object to such a system, which would decentralize federal power. My comment was simply that it would be a fairly humongous job, to get the states to do it and then to dismantle the federal bureaucracy that currently deals with it.
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varigb707
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
hocking!. GWB was never our president.

You got that right!!!
  
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 4:53 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Therefore, if you are a citizen of a state, you have citizen rights of all the states - i.e. you are a US Citizen - NOT the other way round. It should be the states who keep track of who is a citizen, not the federal government, who at most should be given the job of providing a centralized database, but the final authority, in case of conflict or discrepancy, should be the state's records.

So every state will have to chase down and hunt down all it's citizens over the course of their lifetimes? How many bureaucrats do you want to hire to maintain this?

If you think the Federal government is bad, how many hundreds of thousands of state/municipal workers will you have to hire to keep track of everyone? And how much bureaucracy will you create for someone everytime they move? American's are some of the most mobile people in the world...moving many times over the course of their lives.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
My comment was simply that it would be a fairly humongous job, to get the states to do it and then to dismantle the federal bureaucracy that currently deals with it.

And most of the states would simply refuse to do it because they would not have the resources.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
The Florida Department of State, as well as other states, are doing what they are supposed to do...verify that those who are registered to vote are also eligible to vote.

But how did these suspect people get on the voter roles in the first place? How did the state allow so many foreigners to register? It's always funny that everyone wants to blame the federal government, but no one holds the states responsible for their broken systems.
 
seb146
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
As all residents have to register with the municipal authority when moving somewhere else, the authorities always know who has the voting rights and who hasn't.

We have to do the same thing here. Problem is: the districts don't always follow up.

Wow. More fake outrage. Color me shocked /sarcasm I just wonder how many of these names on the voter rolls actually vote? My guess would be near zero. Kinda like how the tens of thousands of fake names were submitted to elections boards. Remember that outrage? Those votes could never be cast and counted because all the fake names were thrown out before the elections. But, oh the outrage!! No one voted, but let's be outraged!! Over people doing their job double checking names!! Outrage!!

Where are the jobs we were promised with the tax cuts for the wealthy? We have been told for years we can not raise tax rates on the wealthy because they are job creators. Unemployment is still at 8%. With the tax breaks, our unemployment should be near zero. Where are the jobs?
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fr8mech
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
But how did these suspect people get on the voter roles in the first place? How did the state allow so many foreigners to register?

In the previous thread concerning voter fraud, I posted links to some states' voter registration sites and showed where proof of citizenship is not required when you register. Let's look at Florida's application, shall we?

http://election.dos.state.fl.us/pdf/webappform.pdf

A: Are you a citizen?
Good start
B: Not a felon or rights restored?
OK
C: Mentally competent?
OK
D: DOB
OK
E: Florida Driver's License or ID number or last 4 digits of SSN or NONE
Now we see where the system breaks down. Looking at the instructions, someone without a drivers license or someone that chooses not to provide a license number or the last 4 of the SSN can check "None".

They then need to provide:

Special ID requirements: If you are registering by mail, have never voted in Florida, and have never been issued one of the ID numbers above, you must include with your application, or at a later time before you vote, one of the following:
 A copy of an ID that shows your name and photo (acceptable IDs) U.S. Passport, debit or credit card, military ID, Student ID, retirement center ID, neighborhood association ID, or public assistance ID; or
 A copy of an ID that shows your name and current residence address (acceptable documents) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document.

Do you see why it is possible for non-citizens to register to vote in Florida? and other states with similar requirements?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
It's always funny that everyone wants to blame the federal government, but no one holds the states responsible for their broken systems.

I absolutely hold the states responsible for this egregious oversight in their duties. But Florida, Colorado and others are trying to fix the problem and are asking for help from the only entity that has the information: the Federal Government. And the Federal Government, and by extension, the Obama Administration is refusing to help.

WHY?

As I've written before: we need verification of citizenship at the point of registration and we need proof of identity at the polls.

And, let me ask this question: why is a voter registration form, from any state, available in a language other than English? Shouldn't someone who is a citizen of the United States have at least a rudimentary knowledge of written English?
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flyingturtle
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
If you think the Federal government is bad, how many hundreds of thousands of state/municipal workers will you have to hire to keep track of everyone? And how much bureaucracy will you create for someone everytime they move? American's are some of the most mobile people in the world...moving many times over the course of their lives.

None. The young clerks who do the paperwork at the town hall are employed already and do lots of other stuff - they're the administrative workforce at the disposal of the municipal government. When I change my location, I just have to visit the town hall, show my ID and receive my notice of departure. With which I go to the new location, show the ID and the notice of departure... takes two times ten minutes.

And I can still live somewhere and the government won't know about it. In theory, I can give the address of a friend with whom I am "officially" living, and I get my tax- and voting-related stuff sent there. Well, I can't deny my existence and I have to care about taxes, else they will track me down. 


David
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windy95
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
The TEA Party and the GOP right would go insane!!! They didn't want to fill the census. Imagine asking the Federal Gvmt asking for their movements

You are missing the point. The Swiss system is much more states'-rights oriented than the US.



No he would be intentionally ignoring the point because he does not want to acknowledge the problem or fix it. The way the left would fix this is by making them all citizens.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
But how did these suspect people get on the voter roles in the first place? How did the state allow so many foreigners to register? It's always funny that everyone wants to blame the federal government, but no one holds the states



The problem is that the state is trying to get info on the illegals in the state to make sure they are not voting. And Obama is blocking the release of that info. Yes the states have made mistakes but the feds are hindering them trying to fix it just like with the voter ID.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
And this is to try and figure out how many illegals are on the voting rolls. But of course the Obama administration is not helping.

No, of course not. The Obama administration is doing nothing about illegal immigration. It's not as if the Obama administration has deported more illegals than any other administration in history or anything.  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Unfortunately, the system was never properly developed, and the Federal government now appears to have final authority on who is a citizen or not - in clear violation with the constitution, IMHO.

Well, your HO is wrong. Individual states cannot decide who is and who is not a citizen of other states. That is for the federal government to do.

I know this is difficult for you to understand, but you do not decide what is and isn't constitutional.
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Revelation
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
"The state has requested access to federal citizenship databases maintained by the Department of Homeland Security, which has stonewalled the request of Florida and Colorado as they've hunted for noncitizen voters."

Before we get our panties twisted, can we know exactly which database is being requested, and whether or not there are legal reasons why access cannot be given? A lot of data is subject to privacy rules put in place by those who are rightly afraid of "big government". It'd also be nice to know exactly what was requested, by whom, and what the grounds for refusal were, and who the "stonewaller" is.

All in all, this is poor reporting.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
In the previous thread concerning voter fraud, I posted links to some states' voter registration sites and showed where proof of citizenship is not required when you register. Let's look at Florida's application, shall we?

http://election.dos.state.fl.us/pdf/...m.pdf

This is hilarious!   

Today, I tried that myself. However, they'd get a little suspicious when indicating a Swiss address. 
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
As I've written before: we need verification of citizenship at the point of registration and we need proof of identity at the polls.

Wouldn't a birth certificate do the job? Everybody should be in possession of this paper. No need to bother the federal government. If you're a naturalized citizen, you should have received another document proving your status. And you send your proof of citizenship to the state or local voting office... I can't see the problem, other than wanting to lay guilt on the federal government.


David
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Dreadnought
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 5:53 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Well, your HO is wrong. Individual states cannot decide who is and who is not a citizen of other states. That is for the federal government to do.

I know this is difficult for you to understand, but you do not decide what is and isn't constitutional.

Funny, I thought I quoted the Constitution.
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fr8mech
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 6:11 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
No, of course not. The Obama administration is doing nothing about illegal immigration. It's not as if the Obama administration has deported more illegals than any other administration in history or anything.

Oh, so not worthy of you Doc. Diverting the argument. We aren't discussing illegal immigration and what the Obama Administration has done about it, we are discussing why the Obama Administration is blocking access to a federal database that would help Florida, and other states, develop the information they need to purge ineligible voters from their roles.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
Before we get our panties twisted, can we know exactly which database is being requested, and whether or not there are legal reasons why access cannot be given? A lot of data is subject to privacy rules put in place by those who are rightly afraid of "big government". It'd also be nice to know exactly what was requested, by whom, and what the grounds for refusal were, and who the "stonewaller" is.

A fair point. But, why block citizenship information from a governmental agency that is trying to do its job of verifying citizenship?
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mt99
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 6:13 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
No he would be intentionally ignoring the point because he does not want to acknowledge the problem or fix it. The way the left would fix this is by making them all citizens.

No I'm not. i just pointing out that out that this "terrible system" gave GWB 2 elections gave the GOP a major victory in 2010 and now that Obama is close to winning again its suddenly a big problem.

I find the timing of your complains very suspect.

Also, what makes you think that ll these "illegal" are voting democrat? Prove that they are.

BTW i thInk a national ID to vote and to access gov assistance is the way to go.
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fr8mech
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 28):
Also, what makes you think that ll these "illegal" are voting democrat? Prove that they are.

You know, none of the articles cited mention illegal aliens. They mention non-citizens. In my book that means legal and illegal immigrants.

And, you know what: it doesn't matter how they vote or even if they vote. They should not be registered to vote.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
seb146
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
We aren't discussing illegal immigration and what the Obama Administration has done about it,

And GWB and the right-wing did what about illegal immigration?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
And the Federal Government, and by extension, the Obama Administration is refusing to help.

WHY?

Because elections is a states rights issue. States oversee elections. The states decide how they vote and, most of the time, when they vote.

BTW, where are the jobs we were promised if huge tax breaks were given to millionares and billionares?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Oh, so not worthy of you Doc. Diverting the argument.

No, not at all. I am pointing out that this view that the Obama administration is somehow "soft" on the issue of illegal immigration is a common right-wing rallying lie.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Funny, I thought I quoted the Constitution.

You did. And then misinterpreted it as saying that individual states decide who is a citizen of the United States. It does not say that. It says that if you are a citizen of one state, you are a citizen of all states. Also, the 14th Amendment has some relevance to that passage. You didn't mention that part, did you? Do you know what the legal system calls it when you tell only half the truth and omit the other relevant half?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
we are discussing why the Obama Administration is blocking access to a federal database that would help Florida, and other states, develop the information they need to purge ineligible voters from their roles.

Because that is not the Administration's job. That is the states' job. They messed up and put a bunch of legal immigrants on their voter rolls. They can fix the problem themselves without having to start asking DHS to share private information.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
And the Federal Government, and by extension, the Obama Administration is refusing to help.

There are three branches to the Federal Government. Are you certain that this is an executive issue?
-Doc Lightning-

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FlyPNS1
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 25):
Wouldn't a birth certificate do the job? Everybody should be in possession of this paper. No need to bother the federal government. If you're a naturalized citizen, you should have received another document proving your status. And you send your proof of citizenship to the state or local voting office... I can't see the problem, other than wanting to lay guilt on the federal government.

Agreed. There should be no reason to bother the Federal government to ascertain citizenship. However, the states are simply too incompetent to do it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
But, why block citizenship information from a governmental agency that is trying to do its job of verifying citizenship?

But why should the federal database be needed? The states have all the tools they need to prove citizenship.

Another funny thing about conservatives, they scream and moan about government, but the moment they want something from the federal government, they expect to immediately have it.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
The problem is that the state is trying to get info on the illegals in the state to make sure they are not voting.

No, that's not the problem. The problem is that these people ever got on the rolls in the first place and getting access to the Federal data doesn't fix the problem. New illegals will keep getting put on the rolls given Florida's inability to properly register voters.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
But, why block citizenship information from a governmental agency that is trying to do its job of verifying citizenship?

First of all, we really don't know what's going on here.

We have one reporter saying one FL official said the Feds were "stonewalling".

This may or may not be an accurate statement since we don't know who the FL official is and how close they are to the actual situation.

And "stonewalling" is defined as the act of stalling, evading, or filibustering, especially to avoid revealing politically embarrassing information", so it's an act of delaying, not one of blocking, which is the word you use above.

As for why delaying may be going on, I'll throw out that Congress may have put stipulations on who can access this data, because it is personal data. Another reason could be that Florida may or may not have the correct infrastructure to limit who within the FL government can access the data should DHS allow them access.

I have given an example of one legal and one technical reason why it might not be as simple as 1-2-3.

Unfortunately the reporter did a pretty poor job of fact gathering. I hope more details come out soon.
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fr8mech
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
And GWB and the right-wing did what about illegal immigration?

Distraction from the discussion at hand.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
Because elections is a states rights issue. States oversee elections. The states decide how they vote and, most of the time, when they vote.

They are trying to deal with it and the administration is blocking them. Would you rather they revoke the registration of all 180,000 questionable registrations and force those folks to register again. Maybe they should void all the registrations in the state and start from the beginning.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
BTW, where are the jobs we were promised if huge tax breaks were given to millionares and billionares?

Glad to see you're toeing the party line by tossing distractions instead of dealing with the discussion at hand.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
Because that is not the Administration's job. That is the states' job. They messed up and put a bunch of legal immigrants on their voter rolls. They can fix the problem themselves without having to start asking DHS to share private information

Yes, they can void all the registrations and start from scratch...or just the suspect ones. Which groups do you think will lead the charge claiming disenfranchisement?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
There are three branches to the Federal Government. Are you certain that this is an executive issue?

Because DHS and the any databases they manage would belong to the Executive.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
But why should the federal database be needed? The states have all the tools they need to prove citizenship.

No, they don't. Citizenship is a federal issue. I don't recall having to notify my state government that I became a citizen.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
kingairta
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 9:01 pm

Using Switzerland as an example is a joke its much easier when your dealing with 7.8 million people as opposed to 313 million.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting KingairTA (Reply 35):

You've obviously not read how we do it. Residents are all registered with their municipalities, and it's the municipalities that organize the votes. It's the local government that knows if you are a citizen or not, while the state government only needs to know if you are one of its inhabitants or not (for tax purposes). The federal government cares even less where you live and what your status is.

It has nothing to do with the sheer number of inhabitants. And by the way, the U.S. can also count most of the votes by hand and still deliver the final results four to five hours after closing the polling stations.

It's only a question of how to organize it...

A question to you: How does the IRS manage its number of clients - 300 million?




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Ken777
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
2600 so far is way to many already

It's 2600 people who the State (GOP operatives) "think" "may" be ineligible. A Brain Fart at best.

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
But of course the Obama administration is not helping

Why should they help? This is simply another effort to reduce the number of people who might have a tendency to vote Democrat. Sort of like all of the other efforts to obstruct voting in America. Gotta make you proud.

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Florida can’t check for illegal aliens who registered to vote because the Federal government is not giving Florida access to Immigration and Naturalization Service records which would help identify illegals who have registered to vote.

Florida is incapable of properly checking 180,000 individuals. They do, however, have time to look at 180,000 records of voters who are registered democratic and stamp "Ineligible" on their records.

Like other acts of obstruction the URGENT need is to reduce the numbers of voters who are likely to vote for Obama in November. These are efforts that would have made George Wallace proud.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
Yes, this the really amazing thing...

What is amazing is that we actually voted a person of color into the White House. If Obama had not taken the Nomination of his party then we would have voted a woman into the White House.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Is examining the 2700+ pages of Obamacare keeping them tied up the rest of the year?

My bet is that there are 10 to 20 pages that the USSC would focus on, with thousands of pages in briefs related to those 10 to 20 pages.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
The fact that the President is blocking every attempt to have clean, honest elections says a lot about where his loyalty is.

His loyalty is to the voter, regardless of color or party affiliation. It is the GOP that will work to obstruct voters that they feel might not vote GOP.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Instead, after the hanging chad incident, we saw all kinds of dodgy venders showing up with touch screen computer systems. Somehow people think computers are trustworthy, despite myriad data showing that they are not. Instead of handing out forms and permanent ink pens, now you need a computer at each station, and count on the software to not have intended or unintended back doors allowing for hanky-panky, and absolutely no way to do a recount.

We also have the mark on a ballot followed by scanning. It does work well and provides a reliable approach for auditing and recounts. The games that can be played on computers are pretty scary.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Florida screwed up their registration process.

They didn't screw up the registration. Their new games of "examining" 180,000 voters is simply a new game the GOP pulled out of their a* * to obstruct non-GOP voters. It shoes just how urgent it is to avoid a clean, honest election in November.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
is that why Michelle Bachmann wanted to become swiss?

She probably did it for some silly reason, but changed her mind when she realized it might block her from being President. If she runs again her opponents will ensure it blocks her from the Presidency.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
"Hispanic, Democratic and independent-minded voters are the most likely to be targeted in a state hunt to remove thousands of noncitizens from Florida's voting rolls, a Miami Herald computer analysis of elections records has found."?

How clear and easy to understand a statement that is.

Obstructions to voting for those who might not vote top. That tops the Hanging Chad when it comes to diminishing democracy.
 
kingairta
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Sun May 13, 2012 10:37 pm

In an overly complicated inefficient manner.

But that's a topic worthy of its own thread.

My point is its easier for municipalities of a couple thousand to oversee a process then one who has to deal with hundreds of thousands. Many of those high population areas have more people move in and out in a day then the entire population of your average Swiss town.
 
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting KingairTA (Reply 38):
In an overly complicated inefficient manner.

But that's a topic worthy of its own thread.

My point is its easier for municipalities of a couple thousand to oversee a process then one who has to deal with hundreds of thousands. Many of those high population areas have more people move in and out in a day then the entire population of your average Swiss town.

Switzerland has large cities too. The municipality of Zurich has nearly 400,000 residents (the city itself is bigger but includes other municipalities, much like in many American cities.

What can I say apart from the Swiss are good at organizing stuff - better than Americans, I think.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Mir
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 12:55 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
But, why block citizenship information from a governmental agency that is trying to do its job of verifying citizenship?

Unless we know more about what is being requested and what the various privacy laws are, we can't really answer that question. There could be a legitimate reason to deny the information, or there could not.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Citizenship is a federal issue. I don't recall having to notify my state government that I became a citizen.

But I thought Dreadnought said that the Constitution mandates that citizenship is a state issue....   

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seb146
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):And GWB and the right-wing did what about illegal immigration?
Distraction from the discussion at hand.

No. This thread is about immigration and illegal immigrants. What did GWB and the right wing do about illegal immigration?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Glad to see you're toeing the party line by tossing distractions instead of dealing with the discussion at hand.

The right screams and cries about the Democrats being soft on immigration but the right were elected in 2010 on the platform of tax breaks for the ultra wealthy because they create jobs. So, where are the jobs?
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 2:31 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 41):
No. This thread is about immigration and illegal immigrants. What did GWB and the right wing do about illegal immigration?

No, this thread is about eligibility to vote. Immigration is a component, but not the whole story. Remember the whole thing about felons voting in Florida in 2000? Hundreds of people who were not felons accidentally found their way onto the felons list, and over a thousand actual felons actually did cast votes. It's a mess. I don't think anyone can deny that.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
seb146
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 2:37 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
Hundreds of people who were not felons accidentally found their way onto the felons list,

What??!!?? The right wing claims over and over again this never ever happens! Now, one staunch supporter says it does?? Wow.... just... wow...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
Immigration is a component, but not the whole story.

So, why didn't the right-wing do something about it when they had control of all three branches of government?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
mt99
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 3:06 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
Remember the whole thing about felons voting in Florida in 2000? Hundreds of people who were not felons accidentally found their way onto the felons list, and over a thousand actual felons actually did cast votes.

So was this why GWB won?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
It's a mess. I don't think anyone can deny that

Agreed.. and you cannot deny the political tint that these claims at this stage of the came.

It was in mess in 2000, 2004 and 2010 when the GOP had big success.
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seb146
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 3:27 am

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
It was in mess in 2000, 2004 and 2010 when the GOP had big success.

Funny how it is only a mess when Democrats are showing leads in polls...
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 3:48 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
What??!!?? The right wing claims over and over again this never ever happens! Now, one staunch supporter says it does?? Wow.... just... wow...

Since when has the right (I presume you mean conservatives) said that everything was peachy? Sources?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
So, why didn't the right-wing do something about it when they had control of all three branches of government?

1) The GOP has not controlled (i.e a supermajority, like the Dems had a few years ago) the Senate in over 100 years - 1909 I believe

Quoting mt99 (Reply 44):
So was this why GWB won?

No, Studies I have seen that his winning margin would have been sizably larger if ineligible voters had not skewed the results. Felons tend to vote Democrat. Jeff Manza and Marcus Britton of Northwestern University and Christopher Uggen of the University of Minnesota estimated that Bill Clinton pulled 86 percent of the felon vote in 1992 and a whopping 93 percent in '96. I don't have any more recent data but I doubt that there has been a big swing.

So assuming 100% participation, and that 1000 eligible voters got disenfranchised in Florida 2000, and 1000 felons managed to vote, you would have removed a population that would have voted roughly 50/50 GOP/Democrat, and replaced it with roughly 10/90 - i.e. a 400 vote swing in favor of the Democrats. That's generally why the Democratic establishment has been pushing to allow felons to vote (Hillary Clinton and John Kerry pushed for that in 2005).

A GAO study in 2005 (http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05956.pdf) showed that 3% of all those who responded to jury summons (which only citizens should receive) were actually non-citizens. 3% - that's millions of people, and more than enough to skew an election, are in the system as citizens - ergo, eligible to vote.
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seb146
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
Since when has the right (I presume you mean conservatives) said that everything was peachy?

Ohio.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
The GOP has not controlled (i.e a supermajority, like the Dems had a few years ago) the Senate in over 100 years

Senate. What about the House? The chamber that makes most of the rules?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
assuming

There's that word again...

And where are the jobs we were promised?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
flynlr
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 8:57 am

other than cost . simple solution. void 100 percent of all voter registrations in all states . and require state issued birth certificates to re-register to vote. if you are against this for any reason other than cost then you have an agenda.
The Right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
 
bjorn14
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RE: Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter

Mon May 14, 2012 9:42 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
But how did these suspect people get on the voter roles in the first place? How did the state allow so many foreigners to register?

It was probably because of "Motor/Voter" rules. When you applied for a DL you simply checked the box asking if you wanted to be automatically registered to vote.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 32):
There should be no reason to bother the Federal government to ascertain citizenship. However, the states are simply too incompetent to do it.

It was the States who created the Federal Government not the other way around.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein

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