ikramerica
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Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Wed May 16, 2012 10:50 pm

There's a reason charges weren't filed right away, it would seem, and it took a political backlash for someone un-involved in the case to file poorly backed charges. It was a rush to judgment by politicians while the proper investigators had not completed their own investigation, (or had, and had determined that the evidence supported the initial account).

Coroner's report shows, other than the gunshot wound which ended the encounter, Martin had no defensive injuries nor injuries consistent with being assaulted. Only scraped knuckles, injuries consistent with striking someone.

Zimmerman's medical records from the following morning show clear signs that he was assaulted for a period of time by someone of great strength, including a broken nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head.

Any wonder the press and president and others have stopped paying attention? They got their "issue" for the election year in a swing state and then moved on once the facts were more clear. What was once front page news before the facts were more clear is now way down the page on CNN, because now a motorist colliding with a moose, the facebook IPO news of the day, and google search being more human are more important.

Whether or not one believes Z had the right to shoot M as a result of getting beat down, the story he told of M doubling back and jumping him and beating the crap out of him seems to be far more likely today. And certainly there was no reason for M to be crying out for help as non-witnesses claim considering the autopsy findings. He wasn't being injured, subdued, held down, beaten, etc. No bruising, lacerations or contusions to support any of that.

Now the question is whether Zimmerman did or didn't continue to follow Martin and attack him (causing no injury), or if he stopped following him as directed and was then jumped, as he claims. But ultimately, the initial planted picture we were given of a smiling, defenseless 13 year old kid isn't what Zimmerman encountered that day. Martin was not defenseless, and seemed strong enough to not sustain any defensive wounds or injuries from the alleged assault he suffered, and was plenty strong to beat up a grown man.

Then the question also becomes, is this self-defense, manslaughter, or the original charge of 2nd degree murder, meaning he intended to assault him so badly that death was a real possibility. Medical evidence doesn't seem to support 2nd degree murder, unless Zimmerman started charging Martin with a gun intent on killing him and telling him he had a gun, and Martin somehow jumped Zimmerman before that happened, beat the crap out of him, and then was still shot (wouldn't more than one shot be fired in that situation?). And what in Zimmerman's history indicates he would be out to shoot someone for sport? Why was a teen unable to outrun a middle-aged man? Who turns around to face a man with a gun when he's not at hand-to-hand distance? And who goes after a man's face if he has a gun out rather than trying to get rid of the gun? M was aware he was being followed. Z didn't have the element of surprise. The family story that M only beat the crap out of Z because he feared for his life doesn't make sense if Z was holding a gun, unless M was on something or out of control.

Manslaughter seems much more likely if it is determined that Z continued to follow M before M turned around and engaged the confrontation, as non-witnesses claim. Self-defense if it is determined M doubled back to find Z after Z stopped following as directed by 911, as he claimed, M threatened to kill Z (not other way around), and Z pulled out a weapon to try to keep him away.

And sadly (not as sad as someone losing a life), at this point, if it is found Z is not the hitler he was made out to be and not convicted, or even if he is able to plead down to some form of manslaughter to make it all go away, there will be riots and innocent people will be harmed, all because irresponsible "leaders" jumped the gun, making a martyr out of someone who maybe wasn't so martyr-worthy.

If only the national leaders and main-stream press would care as much about people shot or beaten to death by police for little or no reason. Occasionally, it is elevated to the Rodney King level (despite him being another non-martyr-worthy fellow), but then here in LA over the last year, we have police beating to death a white homeless man (Kelly Martin) known to them while he begs for his life because he didn't cooperate with the commands given after he was suspected of looking in cars to find somewhere to sleep ("I'm going to F you up" were those commands given, BTW, on tape), shooting a white drunk man to death in broad daylight without warning because he was holding a garden hose nozzle sitting on his front steps, and here in my local city next door to LA, our intrepid police shooting an un-armed black alleged petty thief's lookout on the street because he "reached" for something.

"Reaching for something" or "having something that might have been confused for a weapon by an untrained near-sighted person but certainly not a swarm of cops" seems to the the valid excuse for killing anyone when it comes to the cops (killing a black costumed actor through the window of a Halloween party because he had a toy "weapon" as part of his costume for example), so much so that most of the national press and politicians just move on the next day if they get involved at all, but having your face pummeled on a dark and rainy night isn't good enough for a private citizen to defend himself, or at least to wait for the facts to come out, before everyone with power goes ape poop.

Anyway, rant over. Hope everyone who contributed to the other thread denying all of Z's claims and buying all of the family's claims (despite not being on the scene) takes a minute to think about your own contribution in a rush to judgment. Or you can just claim what M's family is claiming, that the doctor is a liar, falsifying medical reports, and that the truthful and honest family gave that "13 year" picture to the press because it was the only one they could find. Weeks after the event. Couldn't find one recent picture of their completely gentle young child. Or you could believe a doctor who can lose his license and be prosecuted for falsifying records in a criminal proceeding...
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windy95
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Wed May 16, 2012 11:09 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Any wonder the press and president and others have stopped paying attention? They got their "issue" for the election year in a swing state and then moved on once the facts were more clear

You forgot that the FBI just announced that Zimmerman is being investigated for a hate crime. To bad they will not investigate Fast and Furious. What a joke.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
all because irresponsible "leaders" jumped the gun, making a martyr out of someone who maybe wasn't so martyr-worthy.

Yep.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Anyway, rant over. Hope everyone who contributed to the other thread

Thanks for the great post.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Wed May 16, 2012 11:27 pm

This, folks, is why there is something called a "trial."
-Doc Lightning-

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Max Q
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Wed May 16, 2012 11:34 pm

Interesting these medical 'reports' indicate he had a broken nose, there is no mention of X-rays. If indeed he had a broken nose and two black eyes why are there no pictures of these injuries.



Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.



He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.



Just being a Wannabe Cop does not give you the authority of a real one.
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QFA380
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):

Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.


Assume Zimmerman isn't lying for a second and then think what you would do in that exact situation. You're a neighbourhood watch, carrying a gun as is completely legal for you. See someone strange walking around at night, tag along behind him, call the cops, the cops tell you not to follow him. You say ok and head back to your truck, while walking the guy you were following jumps you and starts beating you, threatening to kill you. All the while there is no one around to help you, and you both know you have a gun, a gun that if you let the beating continue he could take and shoot you or others. He is standing over you so you draw your gun and shoot him in the largest target area, his chest. having undergone a course to get his concealed carry permit you probably know that a person is unlikely to die from a single bullet to the chest and that if you intended to kill him, a few more would have been required.

Plenty of reasonable people would conclude that assuming Zimmerman was not lying and was obeying relevant laws then it was reasonable for him to shoot. And now this medical evidence is just showing that Zimmerman most likely wasn't lying.

You and I both know that he won't get convicted though, I'm hoping that his trial ends a few weeks before the election, exploding in Obama's face for his flagrant race baiting.
 
Mir
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 12:26 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
This, folks, is why there is something called a "trial."

   If you shoot an unarmed person, you should go on trial. If they find out that it was justified, then you're either found not guilty or the charges are dropped, and that's the end of it.

-Mir
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compensateme
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 12:32 am

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Any wonder the press and president and others have stopped paying attention? They got their "issue" for the election year in a swing state and then moved on once the facts were more clear. What was once front page news before the facts were more clear is now way down the page on CNN, because now a motorist colliding with a moose, the facebook IPO news of the day, and google search being more human are more important.

I love conspiracy theories  .

Do you know why this is no longer front page news? Because public interest has waned. Zimmerman & Martin was yesterday's news. If the public craved more of this story, CNN would have no problem dedicating oodles of resources to it (after all, they've slipped behind their own HLN at times as the fourth rated news channel). But people have moved on.

[Edited 2012-05-16 18:00:23]
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PSA53
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 6):

Do you know why this is no longer front page news? Because public interest has waned.

Explanation is very simple.The media wants to bury this story as fast as possible of all the political bias it sided with and not to admit any edited and condensing both video and audio tapes that ABC and NBC did. This case will never go away of the ugliness that it portrayed in the first few days of the case.The media couldn't even get a proper race ID right on Zimmerman.

The media will never admit to guilt.It is too arrogant to admit fault.It's being sweep under the carpet.Even Obama is guilty for that stupid "son" comment.

Only people like and you and I need to remind the media,"We want the truth,to whole truth and nothing but the truth!"

And finally in IMHO,in any other circles,people would be lose their jobs,reputation ruined and be charged with obstruction of justice of the what the media did.
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seb146
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 2:05 am

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
from the following morning

So, there was no way at all that he could have gotten into any altercation after he left police custody? Interesting...

Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):
Fast and Furious.

That was begun under GWB.
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Max Q
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):

Assume Zimmerman isn't lying for a second

Why ?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
what you would do in that exact situation

I do not carry, or have a gun I would not have been in that situation.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
You're a neighbourhood watch, carrying a gun as is completely legal for you

It may be legal but neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns. He was looking for trouble.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
See someone strange walking around at night, tag along behind him, call the cops, the cops tell you not to follow him

Go home, game over.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
You say ok and head back to your truck, while walking the guy you were following

You were told not to follow him.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
guy you were following jumps you and starts beating you, threatening to kill you.

Pure speculation on your part.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
All the while there is no one around to help you, and you both know you have a gun, a gun that if you let the beating continue he could take and shoot you or others. He is standing over you so you draw your gun and shoot him in the largest target area, his chest. having undergone a course to get his concealed carry permit you probably know that a person is unlikely to die from a single bullet to the chest and that if you intended to kill him, a few more would have been required.

You directly contributed to and created this situation. If this is under the guise of neighborhood watch then why carry a gun ? It is only going to bring the possibilty of a shooting as happened.




This ridiculous 'stand your ground' law gives the armed gun nut more rights than the unarmed citizen.




Z was a wannabe Cop looking for trouble, he made numerous calls to 911 before this tragedy, constantly bothering Police, thinking this would somehow make up for his failed attempt at becoming a real one.
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Maverick623
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 5:12 am

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Martin had no defensive injuries

Which does not mean he wasn't threatened.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
great strength, including a broken nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head.

No offense, but it doesn't take "great strength" to cause any of those injuries. A toddler can give you a black eye if they smack you just right.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
UNARMED

Does not mean "not deadly"

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.

Police gave him no such instruction. A dispatcher said they don't need him to follow Martin. The dispatcher's instruction carries no weight in a criminal trial.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
you should go on trial.

When that happens:

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
the charges are dropped

That can't. You are either found guilty or not guilty. It is up to the prosecution to drop the charges, a power you want to strip away.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns.

Source?

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):

Pure speculation on your part.

Says the guy who says:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Just being a Wannabe Cop

...

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
You directly contributed to and created this situation.

A meaningless statement. What is relevant is whether a) Zimmerman directly provoked Martin into attacking him or b) the use of deadly force was justified.

Under Florida law, if (a) is found to be not true, than the injuries suffered by Zimmerman and the non-injuries suffered by Martin makes (b) true.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
constantly bothering Police,

Because he reported a suspicious person in an area with recent burglaries? Sounds to me like the police weren't too bothered, considering they never filed any charges.
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Max Q
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 5:34 am

The very act of carrying a gun into a volatile situation guarantees a tragic outcome.



Z was looking for trouble and got what he was looking for.
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StarAC17
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 5:39 am

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Zimmerman's medical records from the following morning show clear signs that he was assaulted for a period of time by someone of great strength, including a broken nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head.

I want to know what the numbers on this kid were (height and weight) I will accept that the media used old photos, but to imply great strength would imply that this kid was of the physique of football player (ex. 6'2, 250lbs).

The last I heard he was 6'0 150-170 lbs. which is pretty skinny. Although great strength may not be determined by simply looking at someone.

What actually might hurt Zimmerman here is that there are no attack or defence wounds on Martin meaning the struggle was entirely one-sided.

Now wouldn't there be an attempt by Zimmerman to fight back before feeling the need to shoot Martin. Zimmerman doesn't look like someone who is a shrimp and he could have fought back to get free and if successful then draw his gun to attempt to neutralize the situation. Also if he couldn't break free how could he get to his gun??

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Then the question also becomes, is this self-defense, manslaughter, or the original charge of 2nd degree murder, meaning he intended to assault him so badly that death was a real possibility.

Look I'm happy the case is seeing a courtroom if he gets off then so be it. If I had to guess the best the DA could get is involuntary manslaughter and if they can prove self-defense then Zimmerman doesn't get any time.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

This, folks, is why there is something called a "trial."

  

Let justice be done.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
It may be legal but neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns. He was looking for trouble.

He was a "Self Appointed" member of the neighbourhood watch and not the head of any community registered neighbourhood watch program. I bet if you asked people in Sanford some might say Zimmerman may have been somewhat of a nuisance.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
No offense, but it doesn't take "great strength" to cause any of those injuries. A toddler can give you a black eye if they smack you just right.

If that was on a coroner's report then it is pretty unprofessional.
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PPVRA
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 12:35 pm

Assuming Zimmerman is innocent. . .

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.

The fact that Martin was unarmed is completely meaningless. He attacked, and therefore Zimmerman had the right to defend himself.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.

Indeed.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Just being a Wannabe Cop does not give you the authority of a real one.

Any human being should have the right to defend oneself and their property.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
The very act of carrying a gun into a volatile situation guarantees a tragic outcome.

Z was looking for trouble and got what he was looking for.

This is like saying a cop gets into a shooting, therefore he was looking for trouble and got what he was looking for.

[Edited 2012-05-17 05:46:55]
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PPVRA
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 12:37 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
I do not carry, or have a gun I would not have been in that situation.

If Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun, I highly doubt he would have attacked Zimmerman.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
windy95
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 12:52 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.

Yes it does. And being unarmed does not make it any less a dangerous situation for Zimmerman. It just takes one wrong smach of the head against the ground to kill or leave you brain damaged for the rest of your life.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.

He did.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):Fast and Furious.
That was begun under GWB.

Nope.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
I do not carry, or have a gun I would not have been in that situation

Most people do not get to pick and choose these situations. You carry for the reason that it may come your way one day.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
It may be legal but neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns. He was looking for trouble.

Source

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
You were told not to follow him.

And he said OK and stopped. He had already lost Trayvon by that time.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
Pure speculation on your part.

Not really. it fit's with what Zimmerman said and what yo hear on the 911 call

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
If this is under the guise of neighborhood watch then why carry a gun ?

To protect yourself.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
This ridiculous 'stand your ground' law gives the armed gun nut more rights than the unarmed citizen.

No it gives every citizen the right to defend themselves.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
The very act of carrying a gun into a volatile situation guarantees a tragic outcome

It helps ensure that you are not that tragic outcome.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 1:50 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
And what in Zimmerman's history indicates he would be out to shoot someone for sport?

History is the best indicator for future behaviour, but history has to start somewhere. I'm not saying that because I think he's guilty, but it goes for just about anything. I'm gnoring the "for sport" part because that is just a ridiculous thing to say.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
think about your own contribution in a rush to judgment

Anything said in this thread before the trial starts is a rush to judgment, including your rant. I'm going to wait until the trial starts before deciding who I believe. Right now it's a bit of a toss-up.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
You say ok and head back to your truck, while walking the guy you were following jumps you and starts beating you, threatening to kill you.

That's incredibly speculative.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
This is like saying a cop gets into a shooting, therefore he was looking for trouble and got what he was looking for

Umm...isn't it a cop's job to look for trouble? I'm pretty sure they're paid to confront suspicious persons and chase criminals.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.

He did.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
You were told not to follow him.

And he said OK and stopped. He had already lost Trayvon by that time.

More speculation. I don't think we've seen proof for this.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
The very act of carrying a gun into a volatile situation guarantees a tragic outcome

It helps ensure that you are not that tragic outcome.

This is what bugs (scares) me. In the US there's this "better him than me" mentality, even if one's life isn't really threatened, that results in disproportionately high gun deaths compared to other Western countries. It seems in certain parts of the country that people will reach for their gun before their common sense.
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JBirdAV8r
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 1:55 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
This is what bugs (scares) me. In the US there's this "better him than me" mentality, even if one's life isn't really threatened, that results in disproportionately high gun deaths compared to other Western countries. It seems in certain parts of the country that people will reach for their gun before their common sense.

Isn't that incredibly speculative?   
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Dreadnought
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 2:00 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.

I am pretty sure that Martin had arms.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
That was begun under GWB.

That was another, similar operation - the difference was that in that operation, they actually kept track of the guns and made arrests.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
Umm...isn't it a cop's job to look for trouble? I'm pretty sure they're paid to confront suspicious persons and chase criminals.

That's like saying that if it's not your job, don't do anything. If you see a bad car accident, don't help - firefighters and EMTs are paid for that - just wait for them.
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D L X
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
This, folks, is why there is something called a "trial."

      

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Zimmerman's medical records from the following morning show clear signs that he was assaulted for a period of time

Not true. I believe this is your conjecture. Because as Maverick points out:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
great strength, including a broken nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head.

No offense, but it doesn't take "great strength" to cause any of those injuries. A toddler can give you a black eye if they smack you just right.

Furthermore, the fact that Zimmerman was injured does not prove in the slightest that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Remember, Zimmerman was the guy wielding the gun. If someone points a gun at you, and you don't have one to point back, you're either going to run like bloody hell, or stand your ground (which you are allowed to do in Florida) and do your best to beat the guy senseless.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why people think an injury is proof that the guy was not the instigator.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Coroner's report shows, other than the gunshot wound which ended the encounter, Martin had no defensive injuries nor injuries consistent with being assaulted. Only scraped knuckles, injuries consistent with striking someone.

Something HUGE you are forgetting to report about the Coroner's Report: Martin was not shot at close range. He was shot at intermediate range. What does that mean? That means that Martin was outside the range to throw a punch when Zimmerman shot him dead. You can gloss over that, but that is a huge piece of evidence, if true.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Anyway, rant over. Hope everyone who contributed to the other thread denying all of Z's claims and buying all of the family's claims (despite not being on the scene) takes a minute to think about your own contribution in a rush to judgment.

Are you kidding me? The protests and the people on the now closed thread were clamoring for a trial! An unarmed kid is dead at the hands of a gun -- there should be a trial.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):
Fast and Furious.

That was begun under GWB.

Both of you: STOP. Your constantly making things political is what's going to get this thread killed.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns.

Source?

Unfortunately, the Community Safety Institute and the National Sheriff's Association for some strange reason don't give this information out for free, but there is plenty of evidence that guns are a no-no on the Neighborhood Watch:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-community-ties-neighborhood-watch
"Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit."

http://www.huliq.com/3257/national-n...ns-actions-trayvon-martin-shooting
"In addition, although Zimmerman broke no laws because he has a concealed weapons permit, it's something that Neighborhood Watch strongly discourages. "There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said. "You do not carry a weapon during neighborhood watch. If you carry a weapon, you're going to pull it.""

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7259059
"Neighborhood watch is a valuable program, but deputies say weapons have no place in it.

Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office Crime Prevention Deputy Levi Hughes said, "We recommend you do not. As a matter of fact, we tell you, you should not carry firearms.""

http://www.sacsheriff.com/crime_prev...ocuments/neighborhood_watch_04.cfm
"Make sure your citizen patrol:
...
- Never carries weapons of any kind — e.g. guns, black jack, mace, baseball bat, or knives;"

http://www.eddystoneboro.com/comubb.htm
"Neighborhood Watch members are restricted to performing eyes and ear surveillance ONLY, reporting their observations immediately to the police. NO weapons and NO direct involvement with a crime situation are permitted. Neighborhood Watch members are NOT authorized to perform in a law enforcement capacity."
 
PPVRA
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 2:16 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
Umm...isn't it a cop's job to look for trouble? I'm pretty sure they're paid to confront suspicious persons and chase criminals.

Depends on how you read the term "looking for trouble". The way it was used above, it goes beyond a literal reading - it implies Mr. Zimmerman was aching to get into trouble, i.e., even if he had to create trouble.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
This is what bugs (scares) me. In the US there's this "better him than me" mentality, even if one's life isn't really threatened, that results in disproportionately high gun deaths compared to other Western countries. It seems in certain parts of the country that people will reach for their gun before their common sense.

US gun deaths are largely related to belligerent US drug policies.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
WestJet747
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting jbirdav8r (Reply 17):
Isn't that incredibly speculative?

I was waiting for someone to turn that line on me  

But it's not speculative when there's data to support it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
That's like saying that if it's not your job, don't do anything. If you see a bad car accident, don't help - firefighters and EMTs are paid for that - just wait for them.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I was pointing out that PPVRA used a poor comparison for his point.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
If someone points a gun at you

I don't think it has been shown whether the gun came out before or after the first punch.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Your constantly making things political is what's going to get this thread killed

  

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Depends on how you read the term "looking for trouble". The way it was used above, it goes beyond a literal reading - it implies Mr. Zimmerman was aching to get into trouble, i.e., even if he had to create trouble

I understand that. I just didn't think it was a great comparison for the point you were trying to make. There is a big legal difference between a neighbourhood "watchman" and a man with a badge.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
US gun deaths are largely related to belligerent US drug policies

Sorry for going off-topic, but how are they more belligerent than in Canada?
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seb146
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 3:11 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
I don't think it has been shown whether the gun came out before or after the first punch.

Only two people know when this happened. One of them can no longer give his side of the story because he is dead. Zimmerman will, without a doubt, come out of this a hero and be the poster boy for the NRA about how guns are just the greatest ever and Trayvon will be painted as a thug and will forever have his reputation and memory tarneshed. Simply becuase he was shot to death in the name of some insane law.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
There is a big legal difference between a neighbourhood "watchman" and a man with a badge.

But there is no moral difference. And the law should reflect this.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Sorry for going off-topic, but how are they more belligerent than in Canada?

I am not too familiar with Canada's War on Drugs, though Americans do often say Canada has more lax laws. Not sure to what extent this is true, though.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
D L X
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 3:49 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
If someone points a gun at you

I don't think it has been shown whether the gun came out before or after the first punch.

Completely agree. All I'm saying is that there is no evidence other than Zimmerman's own statement concerning who started the altercation. Zimmerman's injuries do not prove that he was the innocent victim of crime.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
But there is no moral difference. And the law should reflect this.

But that's the thing about morals, just because one is acting with good or just intentions, it does not make it the right thing to do.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
I am not too familiar with Canada's War on Drugs, though Americans do often say Canada has more lax laws. Not sure to what extent this is true, though.

We aren't as strict on marijuana up here, but all the chemical drugs and prescription meds are just as controlled as in the States. I almost never hear about anybody getting shot over a drug deal gone wrong though. But when I'm in the US I hear it on the local news all the time. I don't do drugs, but it still scares the hell out of me when I hear about it.
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sbworcs
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 5:08 pm

All I see from both sides of the arguments here are people speculating about what happened and reporting it as fact. The only person that is able to know exactly what went on is Zimmerman and he is obviously going to say things to make his case stronger.

Unfortunately the other person that would be able to throw light onto this is dead and unable to do so.

Hopefully the evidence of either guilt or innocence is compelling enough to dispel conspiracy theories from whichever side "loses" the outcome.

Some evidence out so far supports guilty and some appears to support not guilty and people should not only jump on the one that supports their pre conceived ideas of what happened.
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windy95
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns.

Source?
Unfortunately, the Community Safety Institute and the National Sheriff's Association for some strange reason don't give this information out for free, but there is plenty of evidence that guns are a no-no on the Neighborhood Watch:

Was there a point to these? Can you show me where Zimmerman was prohibited from carrying a weapon as a neighborhood watch person?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
You were told not to follow him.

And he said OK and stopped. He had already lost Trayvon by that time.
More speculation. I don't think we've seen proof for this.

It is not specualtion. It is on the 911 tape.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
An unarmed kid is dead at the hands of a gun -- there should be a trial.

Not if it was self defense.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
It seems in certain parts of the country that people will reach for their gun before their common sense.

Can you show us some proof of that? At what point when you are on the ground getting pummeled is common sense supposed to kick in?
 
WestJet747
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 7:03 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
You were told not to follow him.

And he said OK and stopped. He had already lost Trayvon by that time.
More speculation. I don't think we've seen proof for this.

It is not specualtion. It is on the 911 tape.

"He lost Trayvon by that time." is most certainly speculation. How does the 911 tape tell you otherwise?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
Can you show us some proof of that? At what point when you are on the ground getting pummeled is common sense supposed to kick in?

What do you want proof for? I was commenting on my view of gun usage in the US compared to the places I've lived, I wasn't talking about the case directly.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
An unarmed kid is dead at the hands of a gun -- there should be a trial.

Not if it was self defense

Why not? Isn't a trial the most accurate way to prove one's innocence?

Regardless of the crime, whether it's petty theft or 1st degree murder, if there is any doubt in one's innocence, there should be a fair trial so that it can be proved beyond a reasonable doubt that they are either innocent or guilty as charged.
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windy95
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 8:15 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 28):
"He lost Trayvon by that time." is most certainly speculation. How does the 911 tape tell you otherwise?

Because Z tells the 911 dispatcher that he lost him. The the Dispatcher says he should not follow him and Z answers OK.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 28):
What do you want proof for? I was commenting on my view of gun usage in the US compared to the places I've lived, I wasn't talking about the case directly.

Fair enough. Just thought it was a pretty broad statement. The odds of getting shot by a criminal or someone with an illegal weapon far outweigh that being killed a law abiding citizen who is defending themselves though.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 28):
Why not? Isn't a trial the most accurate way to prove one's innocence?

How can you go to trial if there is no charge to be tried on? If you are found by the statute to have used self defense by the Police and DA then there no charge to be tried with.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Unfortunately, the Community Safety Institute and the National Sheriff's Association for some strange reason don't give this information out for free, but there is plenty of evidence that guns are a no-no on the Neighborhood Watch:

First of all, he wasn't on any "official" rounds or walking the neighborhood. He happened to be out running errands.So even if their policy is not to be armed while on patrol, he wasn't on patrol.

Sanford neighborhood watch handbook.

1. Neighbors join together to provide information about their households to one another.
2. Participants receive training in techniques and recognition
3. Upon seeing a suspicious activity or a crime, Participants immediately report their observation to the police department

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...amHandbook.pdf

Sounds like Z followed the handbook.
 
D L X
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
An unarmed kid is dead at the hands of a gun -- there should be a trial.

Not if it was self defense.

Wait.

You don't even think there should be a trial when the shooter alleges self-defense?

I just want to make sure we're clear.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 27):
Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns.

Source?
Unfortunately, the Community Safety Institute and the National Sheriff's Association for some strange reason don't give this information out for free, but there is plenty of evidence that guns are a no-no on the Neighborhood Watch:

Was there a point to these?

Read Maverick's post. My response answers his question which asks for a source that Neighborhood Watches forbid guns.

I can't help but note you do not provide any source that suggests that Neighborhood Watch programs encourage or even allow guns.
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 28):
Why not? Isn't a trial the most accurate way to prove one's innocence?

In my state, a case can't go to trial without a grand jury indictment. For some reason Florida allows some indlctments without going through a grand jury.
 
windy95
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 10:48 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 30):
Wait.

You don't even think there should be a trial when the shooter alleges self-defense?

I just want to make sure we're clear.

Did I say just when the shooter alleges self-defense?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 29):
If you are found by the statute to have used self defense by the Police and DA then there no charges to be tried with.

I was pretty clear. It happens all the time.

Quoting D L X (Reply 30):
can't help but note you do not provide any source that suggests that Neighborhood Watch programs encourage or even allow guns.

I did provide the source above that shows the Sanford Police Dept. makes no mention of weapons in it watch program training.

Quoting D L X (Reply 30):
Read Maverick's post. My response answers his question which asks for a source that Neighborhood Watches forbid guns.

No MaxQ said that Neighborhood watches specifically prohibits guns. Your response in no way answers the point. You provided a few recommendations and one subdivision in PA, but no laws that stop them from carrying anything.
 
windy95
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 10:51 pm

Breaking: Autopsy Reveals Trayvon Martin Had Drugs in System

Quote:
ABC News reports that Trayvon Martin, the black teenager who was shot and killed by George Zimmerman on Feb. 26, had drugs in his body on the night of his death:


The autopsy report shows traces of the drug THC, which is found in marijuana, in Martin's blood and urine.

The autopsy also shows that Zimmerman shot Martin from a distance of between 1 inch and 18 inches away, bolstering Zimmerman's claim that he shot Martin during a struggle that landed Zimmerman on his back, Martin straddling him and banging Zimmerman's head on the ground.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Trayvon-Martin-Had-Drugs-in-System
 
StarAC17
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Thu May 17, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
That's like saying that if it's not your job, don't do anything. If you see a bad car accident, don't help - firefighters and EMTs are paid for that - just wait for them.

Those are slightly different examples, but people trying to take the law into their own hands often create a bigger headache for law enforcement.

With Car accidents you can help but if someone is critical and you have no knowledge of dealing with traumatic injuries, then yes you can make it worse.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Trayvon-Martin-Had-Drugs-in-System

If you rail on liberals for using MSNBC, the Huff post, The Daily Kos etc. Pick a better source   .

I also think if he had smoked a bit of weed it really isn't relevant. Ever been high?? It actually reduces aggression
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flanker
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 12:07 am

All of this evidence does support Mr. Z, seems like everything he has stated so far is true based on the evidence coming out for his defense trial.

There are pictures out now from the police of Z's wounds that were taken at the station.

Travon had drugs in his system just like Z though on the phone.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 34):
I also think if he had smoked a bit of weed it really isn't relevant. Ever been high?? It actually reduces aggression

Right, because we know how much he smoked and also THC has the same effect in ALL people...   
It is highly relevant as it is a psychoactive drug.

[Edited 2012-05-17 17:09:32]
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 1:10 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 34):
I also think if he had smoked a bit of weed it really isn't relevant. Ever been high?? It actually reduces aggression

It is absolutely relevant. It shows that Martin is a criminal. Not the innocent little kid the media would have you believe he was, but clearly isn't

-DiamondFlyer
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StarAC17
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 36):
It is absolutely relevant. It shows that Martin is a criminal. Not the innocent little kid the media would have you believe he was, but clearly isn't


Angel or not he is dead and the evidence of pot use has been suggested before it alone isn't relative to his death (the stuff should be legal but that is another discussion). But does the fact that he smoked a bit of weed probably didn't make him dangerous, from my experiences dealing with potheads it doesn't (possibly paranoia). Aggressive tendencies would have to be there already in his personality.

It does explain the skittles though  

Zimmerman had a rapsheet also, and IIRC he has previous assault charges, far more relevant to this case.

Quoting flanker (Reply 35):
Right, because we know how much he smoked and also THC has the same effect in ALL people...   
It is highly relevant as it is a psychoactive drug.

I'll give you that is might have caused paranoia.
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D L X
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):

Breaking: Autopsy Reveals Trayvon Martin Had Drugs in System

He had THC in his system. THC is detectable in your system for weeks... so this proves he had some pot some time in the past few weeks, like many a suburban kid. That begs the question: What is your point?

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 36):
It shows that Martin is a criminal.

I guess your average college student is a "criminal" in your book as well, given all the underage drinking?

Should they all be shot?
 
Maverick623
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Unfortunately, the Community Safety Institute and the National Sheriff's Association for some strange reason don't give this information out for free, but there is plenty of evidence that guns are a no-no on the Neighborhood Watch:
Quoting D L X (Reply 30):

I can't help but note you do not provide any source that suggests that Neighborhood Watch programs encourage or even allow guns.

Discouraging is quite different from prohibiting. Each watch program is free to prohibit them, but the State cannot, and I seriously doubt any LEA would certify a program that encouraged the carrying of weapons, if not the least for liability reasons.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
Trayvon will be painted as a thug and will forever have his reputation and memory tarneshed

Reputation? What reputation? There has been almost nothing spoken about what kind of person he was, other than being a jock.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 28):
Isn't a trial the most accurate way to prove one's innocence?

Innocent until proven guilty. This is part of the reason why Sanford PD got so much heat for not filing charges: people assume that you have to prove your innocence. Zimmerman did that thing right: you claim self-defense and make the State prove otherwise.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 36):
It shows that Martin is a criminal. Not the innocent little kid the media would have you believe he was, but clearly isn't

It shows that he was not an innocent little kid, but it hardly proves he's a thug. Unless you think 40% of high school kids are criminal scum too.

Overall, it does help Zimmerman's case. Not because it paints Martin as a thug, but because it paints him as a normal person capable of anything a normal person can do.
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D L X
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 2:30 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
Discouraging is quite different from prohibiting.

So, I'm not sure of your point, because it is quite clear that the Neighborhood Watch program does not want its members carrying weps.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
This is part of the reason why Sanford PD got so much heat for not filing charges: people assume that you have to prove your innocence.

I don't think that's correct at all.

YES, you should be put on trial if you kill an unarmed person with a firearm. Innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with whether you should be put on trial or not... except possibly in Florida under its poorly thought-out law.

With that said, Zimmerman IS guilty of killing Martin. He has admitted such. Now he has the burden to prove it was self defense. (A Florida lawyer can correct me if I'm wrong about this issue in Florida.)

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 36):
It shows that Martin is a criminal. Not the innocent little kid the media would have you believe he was, but clearly isn't

It shows that he was not an innocent little kid, but it hardly proves he's a thug. Unless you think 40% of high school kids are criminal scum too.

  

It makes me shake my head when windy proudly comes on this thread proclaiming that Martin had THC in his system, as if he had found the golden fleece.

It is another example of how people who have made up their minds will interpret the evidence they see as supporting them, unless it clearly doesn't, in which case they will pretend that evidence simply doesn't exist.



I'm still waiting for someone to comment on the fact that the coroner's report showed that Zimmerman shot Martin from intermediate range, not close range. It's hard to shoot someone unarmed in self-defense from intermediate range.
 
flymia
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 2:39 am

Form what I have seen, and from what I know is neede for a jury to honestly come out with the verdict of guilty of murder no way does Zimmerman get convicted. Way too much doubt. Way too much. Remember has to be beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the case will go to trial but from what I have seen which is of course not everything I just do not see enough for a conviction. Really am curious to see what the EMT reports say.
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D L X
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 2:48 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 41):
Way too much doubt. Way too much. Remember has to be beyond a reasonable doubt.

The state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt only that Zimmerman killed Martin.

Done. There is zero doubt, since Zimmerman admitted it.


Now (unless Florida law is an outlier), ZIMMERMAN must prove self-defense, and not the state. Doubt is not enough -- Zimmerman needs to prove that he more likely than not acted in self-defense. Anything up to only 49%, and Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

That's why this medical evidence is important. Does it make it more likely than not that Zimmerman acted in self-defense?





BTW, here's the autopsy conclusions:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im...05/17/martin.autopsy.pdf?hpt=hp_t1

Entrance: left chest; intermediate range

Exit: None; . . .

[Edited 2012-05-17 19:55:56]
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 2:58 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 29):
Because Z tells the 911 dispatcher that he lost him

I know he said that, but if Z's attorney tries to use his own statement as a defense in court, the prosecution will likely laugh them out of the room. Remember, the defendant's word is usually not held in very high regard.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 29):
The odds of getting shot by a criminal or someone with an illegal weapon far outweigh that being killed a law abiding citizen who is defending themselves though

I'm pretty sure you're entirely correct. My issue is that people use guns far too often, no matter what the reason.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 29):
How can you go to trial if there is no charge to be tried on? If you are found by the statute to have used self defense by the Police and DA then there no charge to be tried with.

As I mentioned immediately after: if there is ANY doubt as to the exact events, there should be a trial so that all the evidence can be formally presented to 12 of the defendant's peers. If the defendant (I'm talking about in general, not this case specifically) can prove beyond a reasonably doubt that they acted in self-defense as recognized by the law, then there's no harm done to the defendant.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):
Autopsy Reveals Trayvon Martin Had Drugs in System

Meh...it was only marijuana. If it had turned out that he had cocaine or some sort of amphetamine in his system, then this would be huge for Zimmerman.

For reference, I get drug tested frequently for football, and they always remind us that smoking marijuana just once is detectable in urine for up to a week, and detectable in our hair for several weeks (although testing hair is not as reliable they say). What this story proves is that he could have smoked up earlier that week and the test still would have come back positive. I have a feeling the prosecution will be sure to argue that if the defense brings up the drug test.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 36):
It shows that Martin is a criminal

I tried weed once with some university friends. I guess I better turn myself into the police!  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
Innocent until proven guilty.

You're right. Let me rephrase: Isn't a trial the most accurate way to confirm one's innocence?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
Unless you think 40% of high school kids are criminal scum too.

40%? I'm pretty sure 40% of my high school was in a gang, let alone smoking weed!
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seb146
Posts: 13765
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
There has been almost nothing spoken about what kind of person he was, other than being a jock.

Except when everyone kept saying "That picture is from 10 years ago! He was a thief! He was a tagger!"

Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):
The autopsy report shows traces of the drug THC, which is found in marijuana, in Martin's blood and urine.

Oh, gee... a teen who smokes pot. Color me shocked...

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 28):
"He lost Trayvon by that time."

So, there was only one person in a hoodie in the neighborhood that night?
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
randyh3253
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 3:16 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Something HUGE you are forgetting to report about the Coroner's Report: Martin was not shot at close range. He was shot at intermediate range. What does that mean? That means that Martin was outside the range to throw a punch when Zimmerman shot him dead. You can gloss over that, but that is a huge piece of evidence, if true.

As someone who lives here in Central Florida its been all over the news. I think your confused on what "intermediate range" means. I personally have a CWP so Im very familiar with gun terms and what not. That range means the gun was within 2 feet of Martin when he was shot. Im fact due to having gun residue on him, the medical examiner believed that he was shot within 2-4 inches from Mr. Zimmerman.

"Intermediate might sound like a considerable distance, but Sheaffer said it has a very specific forensic meaning when used by medical examiners.
“It means that the firearm was within 2 feet of Trayvon Martin but not touching Trayvon Martin when he was shot,” said Sheaffer."
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...as-inches-away-zimmerman-wh/nN8MZ/
 
D L X
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting randyh3253 (Reply 45):
"Intermediate might sound like a considerable distance, but Sheaffer said it has a very specific forensic meaning when used by medical examiners.
“It means that the firearm was within 2 feet of Trayvon Martin but not touching Trayvon Martin when he was shot,” said Sheaffer."

If that is true, then I stand corrected on this point. Thanks for the info.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 38):
I guess your average college student is a "criminal" in your book as well, given all the underage drinking?

Yes, yes they are. I'm sorry, but why write laws if you are going to blindly ignore select laws? The whole legal system is a joke, enforce the laws on the books or get rid of them. Picking and choosing which ones to ignore and which ones to enforce will be the demise of this country.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
D L X
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 4:40 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 47):
Yes, yes they are. I'm sorry, but why write laws if you are going to blindly ignore select laws?

You are completely missing the point when you consider marijuana usage a mitigating factor in a case about a violent crime.

It's not about picking and choosing which ones to ignore. It's using your brains and realizing that not all infractions are created equal.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman

Fri May 18, 2012 4:49 am

My prediction: Zimmerman will be found not guilty in criminal court but will have his ass handed to him in civil court when Martin's NOK file a wrongful death suit. If Zimmerman is smart (which, from what I have read and seen, he isn't), he'll start putting anything he owns of value in the name of someone else. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Feds get involved and investigate Zimmerman for civil right's violations. Right to carry law or not, it sure sounds like he hunted Martin down.

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