zrs70
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So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:16 am

Conservatives claim that the gay agenda is redefining marriage. But based on what definition?
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747400sp
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:22 am

Marriage, is a man and woman who is coming together in the eyes of God, to because a single body in Gods eyes.
 
zrs70
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 1):
Marriage, is a man and woman who is coming together in the eyes of God, to because a single body in Gods eyes.

But where is that defined?
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Mir
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:32 am

Are we talking about from a religious or legal perspective?

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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:34 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 1):

Marriage, is a man and woman who is coming together in the eyes of God, to because a single body in Gods eyes.

So... Some hideous multtigendered and headed smash-monster; got it.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 2):

But where is that defined?

Somewhere ridiculous, no doubt.


But in real life, marriage already has several legal definitions, along with the requisite esoteric garbage. While I do not believe for a second that the GLBT crowd wants to redefine that, I also can't understand why they would ever want in either. But I do believe they should have that right (or no one should at all), what with them being human beings and all... I can't believe some people still oppose that.
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WestJet747
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:45 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Are we talking about from a religious or legal perspective?

Well I think that is exactly the question the OP is asking. Religious marriage and legal marriage are two pretty different ideas. So does YOUR definition of marriage lean more to the religious (man + woman = reproduction --> makes God happy) or to the legal side (two people registering their relationship with the government to enjoy shared benefits and recognition)?

I personally lean more towards the legal definition, but just because I don't like the idea of only allowing a certain segment of the population to partake.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 1):
Marriage, is a man and woman who is coming together in the eyes of God, to because a single body in Gods eyes.

Wouldn't it make more sense for two men or two women to become a single body? It would certainly make business easier since they have part commonality   
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Superfly
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:47 am

Marriage is finding a woman that hates you and you buy her a house.



Smart man + smart woman = romance
Smart man + dumb woman = affair
Dumb man + smart woman = marriage
Dumb man + dumb woman = pregnancy

Hope this helps.   
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mt99
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:57 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 1):

Marriage, is a man and woman who is coming together in the eyes of God, to because a single body in Gods eyes.

Just like Brittany Spears and Kim Kardashian.

Its really lovely..
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PacNWjet
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 4:09 am

"Official" definition of marriage? I'm not sure there is such a thing, but the Oxford English Dictionary, commonly recognized as the definitive dictionary of the English language, defines "marriage" as follows:

1.a. The condition of being a husband or wife; the relation between persons married to each other; matrimony.
1.b. in or into wedlock (now arch.); to give (join, etc.) as husband or wife.
1.c. A vow or contract of marriage.
1.d. A particular instance of matrimony between a husband and wife; a matrimonial alliance.
1.e. With modifying word, as group, communal, etc.: a system understood to exist in some cultures, religious groups, etc., by which each of the men in a small community is regarded as married to each of the women.
2.a. The action, or an act, of getting married; the procedure by which two people become husband and wife.
2.b. A wedding ceremony; wedding festivities.
2.c. In phrases denoting the means or custom by which a spouse is acquired, as marriage by capture, marriage by exchange, marriage by purchase.
3. A dowry
4. A person viewed as a prospective husband or wife; a (good or bad) match. Also: a spouse (rare). Obs.


There are figurative senses of the word as well such as:

5.a. An intimate union; a merging or blending of two things.
5.b. Cards. In bezique, pinochle, and related games: the holding of a king and queen of the same suit in a hand, which scores points when declared.
5.c. (An act of) industrial or commercial union; a merger.
5.d. An antique assembled from components differing in provenance, date, etc.; the assembling of such an object.


Hope this helps.
 
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Tugger
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 4:46 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 5):
Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Are we talking about from a religious or legal perspective?

Well I think that is exactly the question the OP is asking. Religious marriage and legal marriage are two pretty different ideas. So does YOUR definition of marriage lean more to the religious (man + woman = reproduction --> makes God happy) or to the legal side (two people registering their relationship with the government to enjoy shared benefits and recognition)?

I personally lean more towards the legal definition, but just because I don't like the idea of only allowing a certain segment of the population to partake.

But actually you are wrong in limiting marriage in a religious sense. Because religious marriage comes in a great number of forms of which many are not recognized legally. I mean just a simple selection that we are all familiar with includes:

A man and a woman.
One man and multiple women.
Arranged marriages.
Marriages between two children.
Between a man and a man or between a woman and a woman.

I am also sure there are religions that have one woman married to multiple men (and it not would surprise me that there is a religion where multiple woman marry multiple men.

And on the gross side (what US society considers unacceptable) there are the religions that allow adult men to marry young (even prepubescent) girls, and even those that allow marriage to animals.

So it it the legal definition that is limited not the religious.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Smart man + smart woman = romance

And then in my case it became:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
= marriage
Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
= pregnancy

 

Tugg

[Edited 2012-05-27 22:37:37]
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 5:30 am

I personally only believe in the biblical definition of marriage. The question is, which one to choose...hrm...

http://www.janetober.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/biblical_marriage_chart.jpg
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kpitrrat
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 5:47 am

There was something written called the United States Constitution. I believe the writers built in the ability to create things called amendments....

The first one goes....
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Soooooooooo? Is that our decision to make?

BTW While registered independent I am rather Conservative in my views and Roman Catholic, just to throw that out there. But really, I do not think this is something that legislature should even waste our tax dollars discussing. IMO this is a religious discussion even though they do not specifically say so or point to a religion. If it is that big of an issue it should be addressed as "should marriage between two men or two women be legal." Not what "constitutes" marriage I think NC dropped the ball.

What happened to separation between church and state?

Then again, there are states rights as well.

[Edited 2012-05-27 22:51:12]
 
ha763
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 8:05 am

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 11):

Having the government recognize same-sex marriages does not infringe on the free exercise of religion. Churches already can refuse to marry a couple for various religious reasons. I've mentioned this in the NC thread, but my cousin's wife originally wanted to get married in the chapel at the private high school she attended. She was denied because she nor my cousin are Catholic.
 
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 8:33 am

Quoting kpitrrat (Reply 11):

Exactly. Marriage should not be a matter of federal law. Nor should it be state law. Marriage licenses should not be issued by any government. Legal domestic partnership licenses should be granted based on a set of standards to be met and obligations to fulfilled. Marriage ceremonies are just that. Ceremonies. They aren't actually legal. The legal part is swearing an oath and signing a contract. There is no reason an officiant is needed for that contract. A witness who can swear to their knowledge that the contract is in good faith and notary should be sufficient.
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Quokkas
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 10:34 am

In Australia laws regulating marriage are the responsibility of the federal Parliament under powers granted by the Constitution. The prevailing law is the Marriages Act 1961. The right of churches and civil celebrants to conduct marriages is also contained in the Marriage Act and no marriage is recognised in law until the necessary papers have been signed and an entry made in the Registry. The Churches may follow whatever rituals they wish but it is the signing of the legal documentation that makes the marriage valid in law.

The Marriage Legislation Amendment Act 2004 amended the Marriage Act 1961 to define marriage as a union of a man and a woman; and clarify that same-sex marriages entered into under the law of another country will not be recognised in Australia; and the Family Law Act 1975 to prevent intercountry adoptions by same sex couples under multilateral or bilateral agreements or arrangements. Previously there was no reference to the gender of either person. The definition given is " means the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others, voluntarily entered into for life." The people who wrote that obviously hadn't heard of the Family Law Act 1975, which covers divorce.
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 10:59 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Marriage is finding a woman that hates you and you buy her a house.

Excelent!

Fred
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ltbewr
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 1:07 pm

The 'official' definition is mostly evolved from religious and cultural customs adopted by governments as understood or common law. Depending on the country, marriage was (or in some countries today still is) generally under the control of faith groups, they were the only ones to keep records and recognized to have the ability and authority to officiate marriage.

As secular governance throughout the world developed and as faith groups lost their power, there was a need for governments taking over the authority of marriage including setting rules and recording of them. Governments would adopt the religious and cultural norms, including minimum ages of parties, banning marriages of persons too closely related to each other, that the persons were not already married, banning multiple partners including the posting in public records of their intent of marriage to make sure the persons were not in a current marriage and only of one man and one women.

Over the last 40 or so years our cultures have changed, those of the same gender and want to make the commitment of each other want full marriage rights along with it's legal rights and benefits. Many states never specifically stated but only implied in various laws that the parties had to be of one male and one female. In recent years, politicians seeking a cheap way to get votes of the religious, supported laws specifying that marriage is of one man and one woman. In some states like NY State in the USA as well as in a growing number of countries, they accepted by law same gender marriage due to different political pressures but also realizing the deeper moral conflict of banning same gender marriage.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 2:46 pm

I think marriage is anything a church or party planner wants it to be, and legally, we should do away with legal marriage and allow people to set inheritance to whoever they want. Set inheritance to your wife, gay husband, multiple friends (even if you don't want to 'marry' some of them,) parents (obviously who you're not marrying,) etc. I'm sure the politicians would not go for that, but it would allow the greatest freedom in granting inheritance, choosing your definition of marriage, who you marry, and what venue you marry at (church or someplace secular.) Obviously, religious intuitions can do what they want which would keep freedom of religion, but they have 0 legal bearing.

Speaking realistically, I don't know why there is a big push to define it in stone based off what it has "always been like." The current definition of marriage that some are trying to get set it stone has only been around a few decades--between a man and woman with no regards to religion, race, etc. Go back to the "way it's always been..." does that mean no interracial marriage? Or marriage to 14 year old girls? Go back even further... multiple wives, slaves, etc? Christians need to really focus on what Jesus said, not what they think he said... (hint: nothing against gay marriage!)
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seb146
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
But based on what definition?

The far right would have everyone believe the United States and our Constitution is based on Biblical law. However, that is not true.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 7):
Just like Brittany Spears and Kim Kardashian.

And Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
I don't know why there is a big push to define it in stone based off what it has "always been like."

The far right wants wedge issues. Abortion, gays, guns.... these are issues the far right would have everyone believe are the most important issues in our country.

Our Constitution (14th Amendment, IIRC) says there will be no discrimination for people who want to sign legal documents. If two consenting adults are married and, after some time, want a divorce, do they ONLY go to the priest/rabbi/minister/cleric who officiated their marriage for the divorce? No. They go to the government who origionally approved of the legal documents.

This is a legal issue, not a religious one. If the far right wing wants a theocracy, move to Iran or Saudi Arabia.
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Flighty
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 5:04 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
I think marriage is anything a church or party planner wants it to be, a

Lately I think it is whatever two (or more) people -- ALONE -- decide it is. The people's feelings and spirit are all that matters! The state can take note of it or fail to. It does not change the fact.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 6:55 pm

Marriage is what the man uses to bring us down. Kidding. It is between two people who love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. I think this day in age people forget the second half. Who cares if it is between Adam and Eve or Adam and Steve. If they love each other let them get married. It doesn't destroy the basis of marriage or whatever wackies like to say it does. And frankly as a Catholic and Republican it is embarrassing that we still have to talk about this. Stop trying to twist every bible verse into making gay marriage sound wrong. It doesn't affect me or even bug me.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
I think marriage is anything a church or party planner wants it to be, a

Lately I think it is whatever two (or more) people -- ALONE -- decide it is. The people's feelings and spirit are all that matters! The state can take note of it or fail to. It does not change the fact.

That is what I meant. A person can choose their own definition and marry whatever or whoever... they can find a religious institution that agrees or if not, throw their own party. If we take the state out of marriage and just let people set their own inheritance, hospital visitation rights, etc, people can marry their dog and their won't be any huge implications... it would just be a guy saying he's married to his dog. Anyone can say that today. He wouldn't be going to the courthouse to put his dog on the marriage license because the state wouldn't need to be involved. Probably too libertarian for most people.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 20):
And frankly as a Catholic

Actually Catholics are increasingly supporting gay marriage and support it even more than Protestants

http://www.pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage...udes-Toward-Same-Sex-Marriage.aspx

Just waiting on the bishops to change their minds  
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photopilot
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 8:35 pm

Marriage is the union of a person with a penis joining with a person with a vagina. Nature designed one part to fit into the other part with the physiology so as to enable conception to take place. (It's also a lot of fun). Marriage is the legal, political and ethical answer used to describe these unions whether or not they produce offspring.

If two people with the same physical parts want to form a union, fine.... but you can't call it marriage. Call it a civil union if you must.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):

Yes.

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 10):

YES!


In biblical and very much Christian times, you could sell your daughter for some goats. So we already have redefined marriage.

Leviticus 18:22 says, depending on the translation: "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman: that is detestable."

Yes, that is right. The Bible is right. And now it depends on the historical and societal circumstances of the Bible! We simply cannot take its message earnest without understanding the difference between then and now.

In ancient Greece men had their sexual relations almost exclusively with other men. Sleeping with a woman was a kind of lowly sex, and only served the purpose of procreation. So they fulfilled Leviticus 18:22 because homosexual activities clearly had a different meaning than heterosexual relations.


David
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garnetpalmetto
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
Marriage is the union of a person with a penis joining with a person with a vagina. Nature designed one part to fit into the other part with the physiology so as to enable conception to take place. (It's also a lot of fun). Marriage is the legal, political and ethical answer used to describe these unions whether or not they produce offspring.

Speaking from experience, that one part fits into other parts as well, and doing so is also a lot of fun. Meanwhile I had no idea that conception was the whole point for a marriage to occur. Better get on divorcing all those childless couples posthaste and telling anybody who's a single parent for whatever reason to get married ASAP. Perhaps we could combine my earlier chart with this and make all single parents wards of the government and auction them off to the highest bidder - might help fill our national coffers a little.

Sarcasm aside...no. Especially considering the Bible was used to justify antimiscegenation laws and the like not 50 years ago, I'll pass. Let gay couples call it whatever they want to. My marriage won't be effected in the least if Fred and John or Mary and Sue get married.
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Moose135
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
If two people with the same physical parts want to form a union, fine.... but you can't call it marriage. Call it a civil union if you must.

As long as they have exactly the same legal rights as a "married" couple.
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mt99
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 10:49 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
Marriage is the union of a person with a penis joining with a person with a vagina. Nature designed one part to fit into the other part with the physiology so as to enable conception to take place. (It's also a lot of fun).

How do you feel about fellatio? I mean, was the mouth of a women design to.. well you?
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Maverick623
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Mon May 28, 2012 11:56 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
but you can't call it marriage

I can call it pasta if I want to. It's just a word that describes a romantic union that carries special legal privileges.


Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
Marriage is the union of a person with a penis joining with a person with a vagina.

Ah, so you're OK with transgender people getting married?

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
Nature designed

Oh, you had a conversation with her?

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
Marriage is the legal, political and ethical answer

Exactly; which means the definition is whatever we want it to be.
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bananaboy
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Tue May 29, 2012 1:35 am

I believe it needs to be defined at the federal level. In my case, I am civil partnered (in the UK) to a US citizen, and the UK has granted, after the required time period and exorbitant fees, full UK citizenship to my partner. It's a shame that the US is not as enlightened as the UK in this regard. I dread the day where his family require our extended presence due to ill health and I cannot stay and plan a life in the US with him.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 14):
In Australia laws regulating marriage are the responsibility of the federal Parliament under powers granted by the Constitution. The prevailing law is the Marriages Act 1961. The right of churches and civil celebrants to conduct marriages is also contained in the Marriage Act and no marriage is recognised in law until the necessary papers have been signed and an entry made in the Registry. The Churches may follow whatever rituals they wish but it is the signing of the legal documentation that makes the marriage valid in law.

It's interesting that, although Australia does not currently allow same-sex civil unions or marriages, their immigration policy allows for same-sex couples via the "de-facto" status. It's this clause that has allowed me to be living here since 2010. The government seems to be making the statement that although they don't necessarily agree with same-sex unions / marriages as the way forward for their country, they nonetheless accept that other countries have different views and are not excluding that foreign talent from moving to Australia to help fuel economic growth. I don't believe that the US has this policy, either.


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seb146
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Tue May 29, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 23):
Leviticus

also says to never ever eat pork, never ever wear cotton-poly blends, women who marry their dececed husband's brother are to be stoned, women who are not married but have relations are to be stoned, and never ever have women at "that time of the month" in camp. Yet, I see no right-wing fanatics holding to any of those laws. I guess we can pick and choose our way through the Bible.
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flyingturtle
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Tue May 29, 2012 6:21 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Yet, I see no right-wing fanatics holding to any of those laws. I guess we can pick and choose our way through the Bible.

That's another matter that is equally bad – having a mindset and selecting only those biblical passages that support your view. But most of the Bible-thumpers don't even ask about the history and sociology of the very (biblical) time they should be interested in!

Even when it is targeted at a somewhat Jewish audience (because most of the biblical rules are found in the old testament), I heavily recommend "The Year of Living Biblically" by A. J. Jacobs. Though funnily written, he wades through the very thicket of finding the right way to live according to the Bible.

I want to see the faces of some people when they learn about Romans 13, which says you have to respect authority because it was placed there by God.

Go on President Obama, you can enforce gay marriage by presidential decree! Big grin


David

[Edited 2012-05-28 23:22:36]
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Tue May 29, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
Nature designed

eeerrrrrrr.... no. Nature evolved.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
I guess we can pick and choose our way through the Bible.

People like to do that though, does it work with all the fiction books or just a few?

Fred
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sw733
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Tue May 29, 2012 2:45 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 26):

How do you feel about fellatio? I mean, was the mouth of a women design to.. well you?

Ohhhh SNAP! Agreed.
 
Maverick623
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 12:08 am

Quoting Bananaboy (Reply 28):
I believe it needs to be defined at the federal level.

It's not so much what the definition is, but that the definition needs to adhere to the 14th Amendment.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 31):
People like to do that though, does it work with all the fiction books or just a few?

You should have witnessed the Harry Potter shipping wars.  Wow!
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 3:03 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
Nature designed one part to fit into the other part with the physiology so as to enable conception to take place. (It's also a lot of fun). Marriage is the legal, political and ethical answer used to describe these unions whether or not they produce offspring.

Why should someone who doesn't plan on having kids be able to marry someone else? If the critical element of marriage is conception, why should we call such unions marriages?

-Mir
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seb146
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 34):
Why should someone who doesn't plan on having kids be able to marry someone else? If the critical element of marriage is conception, why should we call such unions marriages?

It should also be illegal, by the same definition, for any woman beyond child bearing years to marry. Or any woman who is barren to ever marry. Yet, they do. All the time.
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Tugger
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting ha763 (Reply 12):
Having the government recognize same-sex marriages does not infringe on the free exercise of religion. Churches already can refuse to marry a couple for various religious reasons.

I keep pointing this out but also ermember that a large number of religions recognize and perform same-sex marriages. If there really is a "freedom of religion" aspect, why is it not that denying it is is unfair to those religions that recognize it? The basic core of a society is the commitment two people make to each other.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
Marriage is the union of a person with a penis joining with a person with a vagina. Nature designed one part to fit into the other part with the physiology so as to enable conception to take place. (It's also a lot of fun).

As othes have noted, it is at least good to see that you are supportive of trans-gender rights to marriage. Gotta take those small steps when you can I guess!

Now regarding conception.... marriage has NOTHING to do with conception. Conception was occurring LONG before marriage. Why does it have really anything to do with conception? The primary benefit of marriage/unions/bonding/whatever is that it means there is someone there to "back up" the other. You know, "in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer" etc? This is particularly good when children are involved because children take a lot of time and resources, but those that have committed to each other do not have to have been married before having offspring.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 22):
If two people with the same physical parts want to form a union, fine.... but you can't call it marriage. Call it a civil union if you must.

Sorry but that it dumb. Put simply it is meaningless to change the name because all those religions that do recognize it will perform it and EVERYONE will call it marriage. And don't get me started on the "separate but equal" aspect.

Tugg
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Molykote
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 5:05 am

This option comes up periodically and apparently just makes too much sense to be adopted:

- Dissociate "marriage" from any type of government sanctioning.

- The government can recognize a civil union between any 2 (or more?) people with equivalent rights and privileges regardless of sexual orientation, religious beliefs, etc.

- Any religion can recognize and celebrate a "marriage" however they want according to their own terms. It can be between a man and a woman, two men, etc.

Everyone is now engaged in "civil unions" (or come up with a new word if you like) in the eyes of the government. The terminology is the same, so all of the "separate but equal" concerns over "marriage" vs "civil unions" disappear.

Most disagreements I've heard against the above proposal seem to come down to two
(1) The socially conservative crowd "needs" to have their religious beliefs vindicated by the government (which I am against for a number of reasons).
(2) The same sex marriage crowd isn't content to have equivalent legal standing and are really after societal acceptance (which is something beyond anyone's control to legislate).

To pick a dissociated analogy, it would be as if we wrote laws only to address the operation of "cars" on the road. As time passed, new "trucks", "vans", "station wagons", etc arrived on the market and rightly should be granted access to the roadways. We now consider this class of products to be "motor vehicles" and legislate accordingly*. Now, when "roadsters", "crossovers", etc arrive we have no problems or needless debate over legal recognition. Perhaps this requires recognizing that the initial legal recognition was "imperfect" by considering only "cars". Likewise, we could probably look back (given the current US debate) and think about whether or not we should have written laws that only really foresaw "man + woman" marriage (or at least consider in hindsight if it was the best way to construct the law).

Whether or not one wants to consider religion as the "owner" of marriage is an interesting question, but I also feel is one that doesn't necessarily need to be answered (if it ever could answer it) to embrace the above concept. Find whatever extra-governmental outfit you want and call your union a "marriage", "life long party", "mistake", "dick dance", etc (kind of like the bogus "buy a star" outfits!). Of course, we also see that many religions do recognize gay marriage, it's not as if the civil union concept prohibits "gay marriage".

* - Yeah, I recognize that some classes of vehicles are treated differently. I didn't say it was a perfect analogy. At the same time (depending one's thoughts on this topic), it could further validate the analogy if one believes that large trucks are different from cars or if polygamy is a different concept than 1+1 marriage.


Edit: Just to be clear, I guess it's apparent that I (as a basically non-religious person) consider "marriage" to have a religious (or at least a "man + woman") meaning more than anything. By no means am I touting this as the "official" definition, but I think that recent US events have reasonably validated the assertion.

[Edited 2012-05-29 22:11:09]
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flyingturtle
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 9:25 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 35):
It should also be illegal, by the same definition, for any woman beyond child bearing years to marry. Or any woman who is barren to ever marry. Yet, they do. All the time.

Funny that the Code of Canon Law allows Roman Catholics to marry if they are able to have sex. Being able to conceive a child is not a requisite.   

Quote:
Can. 1084 §1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature.

§2. (omitted here)

§3. Sterility neither prohibits nor nullifies marriage, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1098.

Perhaps this influences our thinking about marriage even when we look at other Christian denominations like evangelicals.


Separing marriages into a religious and a state-governed affair is just an implementation of separing church and state, required by the constitution.


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us330
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Are we talking about from a religious or legal perspective?

This is the crux of the debate right here--marriage is a religious term that became adopted for civil use--which naturally leads to religious groups protesting when a secular marriage recognized by the govt does not meet their own religious definitions.

Quoting ha763 (Reply 12):
Having the government recognize same-sex marriages does not infringe on the free exercise of religion. Churches already can refuse to marry a couple for various religious reasons

Exactly. If a religious organization does not want to marry a couple for whatever reason, that's fine--as long as the government itself doesn't discriminate. You can be married in the eyes of a religion, but if you don't have your marriage license, you aren't married in the eyes of the government (except in certain states with common-law marriage).
 
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
It's not so much what the definition is, but that the definition needs to adhere to the 14th Amendment.

Hmmm..... seems to me that "marriage" has been around a hell of a lot longer than the 14th Amendment.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 37):
The same sex marriage crowd isn't content to have equivalent legal standing and are really after societal acceptance (which is something beyond anyone's control to legislate).

Absolutely correct. Why bother creating your own institutions/ceremonies/rituals to celebrate a homo union when you can just piggy-back on the coat-tails of and already defined institution.... namely marriage.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 37):
Yeah, I recognize that some classes of vehicles are treated differently. I didn't say it was a perfect analogy. At the same time (depending one's thoughts on this topic), it could further validate the analogy if one believes that large trucks are different from cars or if polygamy is a different concept than 1+1 marriage.

Yup, but the queer crowd wants to drive a Mac Truck down the road and call it a car despite the fact the two are entirely different, each has a unique purpose, and neither can do the job of the other.
 
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 39):
This is the crux of the debate right here--marriage is a religious term that became adopted for civil use--which naturally leads to religious groups protesting when a secular marriage recognized by the govt does not meet their own religious definitions.

Sure but it doesn't ultimately matter. Words for various meaning are adopted around the world for things. I had an exorcism done on my plumbing last week, and you know what? it worked! The demons are gone.  
.
Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Hmmm..... seems to me that "marriage" has been around a hell of a lot longer than the 14th Amendment.

So? "No marriage" has been around a lot longer than that. It was around before marriage, religion, or society. So by your logic Marriage is meaningless and should be abolished?

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Absolutely correct. Why bother creating your own institutions/ceremonies/rituals to celebrate a homo union when you can just piggy-back on the coat-tails of and already defined institution.... namely marriage.

But you continue to fail to recognize that plenty of religions recognize and perform and honor same-sex marriages and have done so for thousands of years. In fact before "the church" corrupted the term, many differing types of marriages were offered and performed by religions and in churches.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Yup, but the queer crowd wants to drive a Mac Truck down the road and call it a car despite the fact the two are entirely different, each has a unique purpose, and neither can do the job of the other.

You still veer into oncoming traffic with your utterly ludicrous arguments. If I may point out the obvious, humans are not motor vehicles.... it was a

Quoting Molykote (Reply 37):
a dissociated analogy


The entire purpose of the analogy was to highlight the fact that one can use a Mack truck or a car and still transport two people to the church (or the judges chambers) to get married. In other words, to point out the similarities between to different objects and not their differences which don't impact their ability to just go down the road.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-05-30 13:18:07]
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zrs70
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 8:59 pm

I was just studying the Book of Ruth. Seems that when Boaz marries Ruth, he does so by acquiring her as a legal transaction. I suppose that is the sanctity of biblical marriage, right?
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 42):
I was just studying the Book of Ruth. Seems that when Boaz marries Ruth, he does so by acquiring her as a legal transaction. I suppose that is the sanctity of biblical marriage, right?

So she is holy owned?   

Tugg
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Maverick623
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 10:19 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Hmmm..... seems to me that "marriage" has been around a hell of a lot longer than the 14th Amendment.

So was slavery.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Absolutely correct. Why bother creating your own institutions/ceremonies/rituals to celebrate a homo union when you can just piggy-back on the coat-tails of and already defined institution.... namely marriage.

I fail to see the point of this rant. Who cares? Does it affect your ability to do... anything?

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Yup, but the queer crowd wants to drive a Mac Truck down the road and call it a car despite the fact the two are entirely different

Both have engines, both have tires, both have steering wheels, gears, take motor oil, etc.... Again, no point...
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DeltaMD90
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
It's not so much what the definition is, but that the definition needs to adhere to the 14th Amendment.

Hmmm..... seems to me that "marriage" has been around a hell of a lot longer than the 14th Amendment.

So were you against interracial marriage back in the day?
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Mir
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 11:26 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Hmmm..... seems to me that "marriage" has been around a hell of a lot longer than the 14th Amendment.

So has the divine right of governance by birth - that's older than the Constitution itself, by a long shot. But the Constitution invalidated that by saying "we're not going to do things this way anymore".

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Absolutely correct. Why bother creating your own institutions/ceremonies/rituals to celebrate a homo union when you can just piggy-back on the coat-tails of and already defined institution.... namely marriage.

Because separate isn't equal.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Yup, but the queer crowd wants to drive a Mac Truck down the road and call it a car despite the fact the two are entirely different, each has a unique purpose, and neither can do the job of the other.

Do you have any backing for the claim that the sole purpose of marriage is for the ability to procreate? We know that people procreate without being married, and we know that people marry and do not procreate. So that seems to be a very arbitrary definition to come up with.

I also looked up the traditional Catholic marriage vows:

I, ____, take you, ____, to be my (husband/wife). I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honor you all the days of my life.

Not seeing anything about having sex there.   

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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Wed May 30, 2012 11:52 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
Not seeing anything about having sex there.

Interesting point there.

Why is marriage an issue when it is SEX that is the issue and one can most certainly get married and not have sex. There are people that state that it is OK to be "homosexual", just not to act out on the resultant sexual urges.... in fact the biblical condemnations refer to the sexual aspect of it (or if the "lay together" is interpreted strictly then maybe that too).

So with that, two people of the same sex should still be able to get married if they wish with no problem. They just commit to no sex and not laying together/sleeping in separate beds. I actually know of quite a few marriages that are just like that.... (and honestly I know two gay couples like this, they love each other and don't have sex. They have separate beds too. That is not what their relationship is about, it is about love and being with the one person that values you above all others. It may seem weird, even - dare I say it - unnatural, but I say to each their own.)

If a couple actually committed to that, would those with religious issues about it still reject it? And if so WHY?

Tugg
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flyingturtle
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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Thu May 31, 2012 11:43 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
Not seeing anything about having sex there.

See my post #38, it says otherwise. 


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RE: So, What Is The Official Definition Of Marriage?

Thu May 31, 2012 12:09 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 39):
This is the crux of the debate right here--marriage is a religious term that became adopted for civil use--which naturally leads to religious groups protesting when a secular marriage recognized by the govt does not meet their own religious definitions.

In the US, where our Constitution and heritage demands separation of church and state, the religious have no grounds for such complaints.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 48):
See my post #38, it says otherwise.

Actually the Canons you quoted refer to intercourse, and that term as used here refers to a specific sex act, indeed the one that can lead to procreation (and recreation too!).
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