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OA260
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Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 12:25 pm

The BBC are running a documentary on this disgusting racism in Ukraine . The Euro 2012 is going to be overshadowed by this and makes you wonder why on earth they were allowed to stage it in the first place.

Sol Campbell warning on Euro 2012 racism

Former England captain Sol Campbell told BBC Panorama's Chris Rogers that he fears for the safety of football fans travelling to Euro 2012.

Mr Campbell questioned the decision of Uefa, European football's governing body, to award the tournament to joint hosts Ukraine and Poland after seeing footage taken by the programme that shows racist and anti-Semitic chanting in the terraces and an attack on a group of Asian students that took place in Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18237932

A more disturbing video :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18233736
 
Danny
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 12:57 pm

UEFA is all about money and the could not care less about things like human rights, equality etc. I'm surprised that Sol Campbell only discovered that now.

Having said that you also must keep things in perspective. Just because there are some shameful racist groups in Ukraine or in Poland should not be a reason "not to travel to those countries". Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 1:02 pm

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):

Former England captain Sol Campbell told BBC Panorama's Chris Rogers that he fears for the safety of football fans travelling to Euro 2012.

The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.
 
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OA260
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 1:17 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

The British have done a lot to combat racism and violence over the years and that's even recognised by Black players and others of ethnic backgrounds. What we see in Ukraine is Police ignoring the violence and trying to say there are no issues in the stands. Mean while Nazi salutes and monkey noises are common place at Ukrainian football matches and as you see in the videos non whites are physically attacked in broad daylight.

Anyone that doesn't think that is disgusting is either blind or supporting the racists.
 
Danny
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 1:32 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Anyone that doesn't think that is disgusting is either blind or supporting the racists.

We do think it is disgusting.
 
Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 2:39 pm

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):



I brought up this very topic several years ago here in this forum and was flamed by some for doing so. I'm surprised by how oblivious people are to what is going on in Eastern Europe. Events such as soccer/football games in Eastern European cities draws attention to this very topic.
This is a problem all throughout Eastern Europe and I'm surprised at how many people in Western Europe are unaware of what's going on there. The soccer/football player in the video is absolutely correct when he advises against non-Whites from travelling to the Ukraine to see this ballgame. Yes their lives will be in jeopardy.
Many people and authorities will deny and pretend the problem doesn't exist. When someone get's killed, they'll make an excuse as if it's the victims fault.



Nazi/Skinhead Killings On Rise In Russia (by Superfly Sep 12 2006 in Non Aviation)#1



Hitler's B-day; Immigrants On Lockdown In Russia (by Superfly Apr 19 2007 in Non Aviation)?threadid=1590979&searchid=1596103&s=Skinhead+Russia#menu27

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

The British have done a lot to combat racism and violence over the years and that's even recognised by Black players and others of ethnic backgrounds.


  
The drunken British hooligans don't pick their fights against people because of their skin color and the drunken Brit hooligans aren't a reflection of the attitudes of the British as a whole. The Eastern European hooligans on the other-hand...



OA260;
Here is a short documentary on the situation in Eastern Europe. Although they focus on Russia, it's the same situation in the Ukraine and other Eastern European nations.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j59BiLwdNO8
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuOVgx3Zh6E&feature=related


Just look at what goes on at these football games in Eastern Europe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSE0zp51SFE

Quoting Danny (Reply 1):
Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.



That may be true and many Polish, Russian and Ukrainians are wonderful people but this 'minority' of extremist is rather large and they do not have the ability to stop or control the situation. As you can see, there are hundreds of youtube clips of skinheads themselves beating up and killing people. Yet people just look on or keep walking and the police have no control over the situation.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 8:55 pm

I know a guy from Benin who has lived in Ukraine for 12 years. He told me that as long as you stick to the center of the city, there is no problem. And by the way, I see many orthodox jews in Boryspil airport everytime I am there. Not defending Ukraine in any way though, and racism and anti semitism should never be tolerated.

[Edited 2012-05-28 13:57:45]
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 10:00 pm

Rampant racism and anti-semitism, while very bad, is not the most worrying issue that comes to mind when thinking of the Ukraine.
I tend to worry more about the tightening political turn towards an extreme-right authoritative regime, one which does encourage (or at least does not hamper) violent xenophobia, censors the media and emprisons political opponents for no good reasons.
Another former soviet country whose transition to democracy didn't go as it should...
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Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 10:13 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
I know a guy from Benin who has lived in Ukraine for 12 years. He told me that as long as you stick to the center of the city, there is no problem.


Is he white? You may want to talk to someone who is Asian, African, Arab, Indian or Latino about their experience in an Eastern European city. They will most definitely have something different to say.

Apparently the city center isn't safe either;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25642116...ukraine-grapples-rise-hate-crimes/

Nigerian medical student George Itoro Ebong says he was waiting for a bus in central Kiev last year when three young men ran up, shouted racially charged insults at him and smashed a bottle over his head.


Even high ranking diplomats aren't even safe.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/mar/02/world/fg-briefs2.5

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
And by the way, I see many orthodox jews in Boryspil airport everytime I am there.


They're white Europeans and many are originally from the Ukraine.
The airport is going to be safe. You don't know what precautions they take once they leave the airport.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Mon May 28, 2012 10:29 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Rampant racism and anti-semitism, while very bad, is not the most worrying issue that comes to mind when thinking of the Ukraine.
I tend to worry more about the tightening political turn towards an extreme-right authoritative regime, one which does encourage (or at least does not hamper) violent xenophobia, censors the media and emprisons political opponents for no good reasons.
Another former soviet country whose transition to democracy didn't go as it should...



I had this same exact conversation with a very liberal friend of mine from Germany who is a journalist. He was insisting that this is all Putin's fault and I was telling him that he was wrong. Some of the most vocal anti-Putin forces are indeed the racist nationalist, skinheads that do not want non-whites in their country. He couldn't accept that these nationalist were on the same side as him in wanting to get rid of Putin. The lack of exposure of this issue even among media folks is disturbing.
For a non-white person visiting Eastern Europe, they're going to be more concerned about their immediate safety than censorship and internal politics.
Hosting an international soccer event in the Ukraine, Russia or any Eastern European country is a really stupid idea.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 5:40 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

Anyone who makes as much as a racist chant once and gets heard is liable to get ejected from the ground, could be arrested and charged. Clubs who are not seen to make a serious effort to clamp down on it face sanction. Players who do it face serious trouble too, Fact. Not whatever went on 25-30 years ago. Meanwhile Sepp Dietrich, I mean Blatter, thinks it's OK for any on field protagonists to shake hands. The well documented English efforts to stamp this sort of thing out are never going to be taken serious by that old crook because, well it's the English who are doing it and leading the way, he'll resent that.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
The drunken British hooligans don't pick their fights against people because of their skin color and the drunken Brit hooligans aren't a reflection of the attitudes of the British as a whole. The Eastern European hooligans on the other-hand...

English hooligans are likely to be middle aged with large beer bellies so less able to evade the police! Since they were doing it in the 1970's and 80's, if they are allowed to travel at all, having a record of hooliganism can and has lead to travel banning orders.
There might be a few younger ones around, but just a few, mostly in-breds from small towns supporting small clubs.
 
Danny
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Here is a short documentary on the situation in Eastern Europe. Although they focus on Russia, it's the same situation in the Ukraine and other Eastern European nations.

Please avoid generalizations like that. This is simply not true. It's like saying that in UK and Ireland they are murdering Eastern Europens because there were a couple of incidents like that:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0326/breaking51.html

Btw: Have you noticed the anti - Polish campaign in Holland that led to setting up a house of polish immigrants on fire?

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
Quoting Danny (Reply 1):
Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.



That may be true and many Polish, Russian and Ukrainians are wonderful people but this 'minority' of extremist is rather large

How large? A few thousand? 20 thousand? Maybe. But there is 36 million of us in Poland. Again you need to keep things in perspective.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 6:13 am

Ukraine is an odd mix. I actually really enjoy my visits there, because it feels very different to the rest of Europe - although many of the things that make it exotic to a visitor make it hard to live in, eg it's poor and crumbly with creaking infrastructure. The city that most closely matches Kiev in my experience is probably Tehran - big and teeming and polluted, functioning but a million miles from Dusseldorf.

The trouble I've encountered there has always been with police, not civilians. A friend of mine was shaken down for EUR50 for "not carrying ID" - trumped up nonsense. The next night, I was walking with a friend and we were stopped by two cops who were extremely threatening, tried to shake us down for some cash as well. Later that evening another pair of cops followed us in a way that made us uncomfortable. Finally, on a taxi ride, we were stopped for "speeding" (I don't think we were) and our driver put a large note of Ukrainian Hrievna inside his driving license, cop pocketed the cash and let us go. The trouble with that kind of corruption is, the first step to stamping it out is double wages for the police. Since Ukraine is extremely poor, the price is simply too high and it's much easier for the government to keep paying a pittance and let the system take care of the rest. But while that goes on, the society will never improve.

Then there's the awful tale of Yulia Tymoshenko. No other European nation rigs elections so blatantly, then imprisons the ex prime minister. Shameful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

Hopefully the baleful glare of the spotlight will help Ukraine clean up it's act - cos there's a lot to like: lots of history, wide open skies, Pripyat (if a preview of the end of the world is your thing), beautiful music, beautiful girls, Odessa, the Crimea, etc etc.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 6:16 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Please avoid generalizations like that.


What generalizations?

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Again you need to keep things in perspective.


And I did put things in to perspective but it sounds like you're denying the problem exist.
If you've watched any of the clips and read the articles you can see it's a severe problem. I'm sure you are well aware of the problem but like many, turn a blind eye to it.

As GDB pointed out, acts of inciting racial violence in the UK carries serious consequences. That is not the case in Eastern Europe. As rowdy as the British may be, you would NEVER see those kinds of chants in a football stadium in the UK in this day & age.

BTW, I have a friend that works for the US State Department and lived in Poland for a few years. It was not safe for her husband who is Chinese to roam freely throughout Poland by himself. They faced all sorts of discrimination from some of the locals.
I understand that you're ashamed of this problem in your country but to deny it seems like you support some of these views.
No one said everyone in Eastern Europe holds these beliefs but the problem is serious in many of the fmr. Communist Eastern European countries.

[Edited 2012-05-28 23:19:57]
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AirPacific747
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 7:07 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):


No he is black. Thats why I mentioned him.
 
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OA260
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 8:53 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
This is simply not true. It's like saying that in UK and Ireland they are murdering Eastern Europens because there were a couple of incidents like that:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0326/breaking51.html

Something very rare in Ireland and not comparable to hundreds of nazi racist football fans in Poland/Ukraine/Russia etc... Its a culture change that needs to happen and it needs to come from the corrupt Police and the leaders of the countries involved. Sadly there is no will to do it and they dont care.

Big difference between isolated racist incidents in the UK and Ireland and huge organised racist beatings that are ''allowed'' to become the norm in the above countries. Rather than point the finger to others one needs to accept the problem they have. The worst thing than the nazi/racists is those that say '' oh look what they do in the UK and Ireland'' Thus denying the serious problem .
 
Danny
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 10:18 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Something very rare in Ireland

I remember there was also a case of a Latvian man bitten to death by Dublin airport, incidents of houses of polish immigrants being arsoned in Belfast etc. Not so rare as you want to believe it.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Big difference between isolated racist incidents in the UK and Ireland and huge organised racist beatings that are ''allowed'' to become the norm in the above countries.

I am not aware of any huge organized racist beatings in Poland neither anything like that is allowed here. These incidents happen but are as rare as the ones I pointed out in Ireland. I speak that only for Poland, not so sure about Ukraine or Russia.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Thus denying the serious problem .

I haven't denied anything in fact admitted these are disgraceful incidents -read reply 4. On the other side you have just denied the problem exist in Ireland yet it was exactly the same type of incidents.


On another note if you wish to know more about problems related to football hooligans in Poland - the real problem is not so much racism as involvment of football hooligans in organized crime i.e drug dealing. That is real issue and it is being tackled - yesterday 42 hools were arrested and most of them have been charged with drug dealing and membership of organized crime organization.
Link - polish only
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomos...narkotykami.html?lokale=trojmiasto

[Edited 2012-05-29 03:25:05]
 
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OA260
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 1:05 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
I remember there was also a case of a Latvian man bitten to death by Dublin airport, incidents of houses of polish immigrants being arsoned in Belfast etc. Not so rare as you want to believe it.

Again not the trend here and a small minority of thugs who are not supported by the majority. I can see why you are doing it though to try to deny the problem that exists in Poland but you really need to wake up and accept the fact there is a problem otherwise nothing will change. It may be a tough pill to swallow but it needs to be done and denial is the worst thing .

When anything like that here happens its on all the TV programs and the majority are sickened about it and these people are brought to justice by the Police ! They don't deny the problem as do some Police forces in the above mentioned countries.

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
I am not aware of any huge organized racist beatings in Poland neither anything like that is allowed here.

POLISH FOOTBALL'S RACISM PROBLEM

Racism may never be fully eradicated from football, but what I found during an investigation into the problem in Poland was truly shocking.

And this in the country that will co-host the 2012 European Football Championship.

I found racism that was strident and in your face in a way it never was in Britain, even in the very bad old days of English football in the 1970s and 80s.

Then, as one of the regular football reporters at the Sunday Times, I spent my Saturdays at football matches and had several first-hand experiences of racism.

Much of it was very unpleasant. But in Poland it was on a different, deeper and much nastier level.

http://www.nigdywiecej.org/index.php...m_content&task=view&id=791

----

True Poles ??

Football: 'Clown' Tomaszewski under fire for racism

(WARSAW) - Iconic former Poland goalkeeper Jan Tomaszewski is under fire for a tirade against players in the Euro 2012 host nation's squad who were born or raised abroad.

The 1974 World Cup hero, now a lawmaker with Poland's conservative opposition, has repeatedly faced criticism for such outbursts.

"I don't want to see the White Eagles' shirt worn by Frenchmen and Germans who've already played for France and Germany, didn't make it in their own national team and are taking away slots from our own, true Poles," Tomaszewski told Poland's Radio Zet.

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/racism-fbl-euro-pol.gfl

This was highlighted back in 2008 also when the concerns over 2012 were raised :

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1821189/bbc_poland_football_racism/

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
On the other side you have just denied the problem exist in Ireland yet it was exactly the same type of incidents.

Didn't say the problem didn't exist in Ireland the issues we have here are on a much smaller scale and dealt with severely. Remember I'm an immigrant myself here ! Please don't pick and choose to suit your argument. I have 5 Nigerian colleagues at work and they feel totally safe here and don't encounter racism because we have had this same discussion . They wouldn't travel to Poland or Russia/Ukraine as they say they would feel that they were not safe.

My Polish next door neighbour from Krakow tells me some interesting stories about racism in Poland and football. She went out with an Indian guy and was terrorised herself in her own neighbourhood. One reason she decided to leave .

So basically do you deny you have a problem in Poland Danny ? Forget Ireland and other quotes do you realise and understand that there is alot to be done in Poland to stop racsim in society and football or do you still believe you dont have a problem?
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 2:10 pm

You really think UEFA care?

This is the same UEFA, that fined Manchester City £30K for coming out late for the second half.

But fined Porto only £20K for racist abuse from the fans

UEFA does not give a **** about racism and FIFA doesn't give a **** about either corruption or homophobia.


The only thing they care about is $$$$

The beautiful game... Yeah right.
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Danny
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):
gain not the trend here and a small minority of thugs who are not supported by the majority.

Just like here. There are no reliabl;e data that the problem is bigger or smaller in country A or B. Racism is a worldwide problem, not just Polish or Ukrainian. From my experience after living in US, Ireland and Poland, Poland has a fairly small problem of racism. Naturally abyone can havce different opinion.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):
They wouldn't travel to Poland or Russia/Ukraine as they say they would feel that they were not safe.

Prejudice, all I can say.

Please read this good article in the yesterday's Irish independent then come and see yourself:
http://www.independent.ie/travel/tra...-a-kick-out-of-gdansk-3119663.html

When you're booked let me know. I'll show you around  
 
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OA260
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Tue May 29, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 19):

Hopefully the Polish nation can come to terms with their racism and neo nazi issues . It needs to be acknowledged at all levels of Polish society and in schools , government level,community etc..Its a huge mountain to climb but I wish them luck with it as its a serious problem and they are still in denial . Fingers crossed that the attacks dont go on during the games as Poland will get highlighted for all the wrong reasons !
 
Delboy
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Wed May 30, 2012 1:23 pm

Us Brits have had a bad rep for many years over football hooliganism and racism. I think we've taken great strides to eliminate both and our game is the better for it.

I watched the documentary on Monday night and was appaled to see the interviwed Chief of Police deny that there was any rasist chants and actions at the game featured. He claimed elements of the crowd were not doing the Nazi salute but were merely pointing at the opposing fans. Well, I'm sorry but that was not what everyone else saw and herein lies the problem. When the man at the top buries his head in the sand and denies things like this are taking place, you've got very little hope of the rank and file policeman doing anything about it.

The stweards at the game in question were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard as well. When the violence kicked off they just stood and watched some poor bloke get repeatedly punched in the head. I suppose owning a dayglo jacket means you don't have to pay to watch your team play every week.

Mario Ballotelli has threatened to kill anyone who throws a banana at him and has said if he is racially abused at the EURO's, he'll walk off the pitch. The first part of that is just nonsense but the second part has some merit. Platini and his merry men at EUFA are impotent at dealing with these problems so let the players take it into their own hands by walking off the pitch if racially abused. Talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words.
 
Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Wed May 30, 2012 7:22 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):

Looks like we have a denier here in this thread.
It's really sad.

Quoting Delboy (Reply 21):
Us Brits have had a bad rep for many years over football hooliganism and racism. I think we've taken great strides to eliminate both and our game is the better for it.

  
Damn right!

That said, it's really disgusting to see such hatred displayed at an event which is nothing more than a kid's game.   
Bring back the Concorde
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Wed May 30, 2012 8:43 pm

This thread is really sad. The worst part about it is how two sides are budding heads with each other and nothing is coming out of it.

Because I will definitely get flamed for my opinions, I will withhold from saying anything drastic. That said, however, I will mention this:

Racism exists everywhere. Some countries get called out more than others in the eyes of media and such. Certain people in this thread are making very extensive generalizations that are not warranted in any way. No one is denying (feel free to quote me on that) that Eastern Europe has problems with racism. This is widely known. The mere fact that these countries are being accused of not doing anything about this is utter BS. I personally have had an Armenian friend of mine murdered in the middle of the day on a subway station in Moscow. It took a few years to find the skin head killers, but they have now been put away deep into prison and closure for the families involved has been presented.

Likewise, I know quite a few black students in Moscow who went there to study abroad, are now fluent in Russian and thoroughly enjoy living there. In fact, have found steady jobs and are making quite a nice life. Thousands upon thousands of people of different nationalities live in Russia and live peacefully at that.

Ukraine is similar, I travel there very often and have family living there. Isolated issues with radical nationalists come into play here and there, but these cases cannot be used to stereotype the entire country and population. Radical groups are responsible for these atrocities, not everyone else. Unfortunately, we live in a world where crime is widespread. Every country on earth sees their problems, but judgement shouldn't be passed so easily. It's always easy to point fingers without proper knowledge. There are tens of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine that are ready to welcome fans from around the world with open arms and that is fact.

The same can be said about other cities/countries hosting major events... London, Rio de Janeiro to name a few. One can find hundreds of media links to murders/bombings/thefts/kidnappings/terror plots and so on for each of them. Does this make them not capable of holding these events? No.

Judgements that are being passed in this thread are so childish it's mind-boggling to be reading them.
 
Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Wed May 30, 2012 8:54 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25):
Certain people in this thread are making very extensive generalizations that are not warranted in any way.

Who?
Bring back the Concorde
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Wed May 30, 2012 10:12 pm

You think racism in football is an Eastern European thing? It's most certainly not. In fact, Italy definitely has some of the most racist football fans in the world. Maybe it's not as bad as Russia and Ukraine, but I don't know. I certainly hear of incidents from all those places.

There are countless black football players in Romania, and a few Asian and Arab players. Many of the black players have moved to Romanian teams from countries like Serbia, where they claim at every game there were racist chants, etc. However, these incidents have not been a problem in Romania. By the players' own statements... I recall reading a few of these stories...

I'm not saying there isn't racism in Romania, but it's towards gypsies, on the same level as anywhere else in Europe. The only racial group towards which the Romanian people in general have hatred towards is gypsies. This is continually perpetuated by the Western European media who can't differentiate between Rroma and Romania.

In the late 1990s I can vouch that black players were regarded very well, and because they were different they often got to be stars for their local teams, or if they were contracted by good teams, nationally known stars. Some were half-Romanian, some were 100% foreign. There are disproportionately many black/half-black TV stars in Romania given the percent of the population who are black. No, Romania, strictly talking about racial bias, is not as bad as other EE countries, or even Italy, France and Spain.

To be honest, I've witnessed much more racism in the States than in Romania. Especially towards Muslims/Arabs... I won't speak for the rest of Eastern Europe, since I've seen very little of it.

That said, many, many, many football "fans" (well, not actual fans, IMO, just hooligans) have extreme right wing views. I've certainly heard this about both Polish and Ukrainian fans.
 
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Wed May 30, 2012 10:29 pm

IDK... Recent experiences in matches between Polish and Romanian teams would make me think the fans in Poland are worse than those in Ukraine... I think it was Wisla Krakow's hooligans who really made a mess of things... But I can't talk about how racist they are. Certainly, though, given they are extreme right-wingers, I would expect a lot of racist incidents.

Ukraine on the other hand does not have the infrastructure to host the Euro, while Poland I think does. For that matter, the rest of the Eastern European countries don't, aside possibly the Czech Republic (I exclude Russia); although I'm not sure how large the Czech stadiums are...

Looking back, I agree that the EE isn't the best place to hold a major championship like this.

[Edited 2012-06-13 03:49:32 by SA7700]
 
Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
Yes but the same suspects always come up with the same things so not really surprised .


True. I presented the facts an even prove it with various new articles and live video and yet the same suspect from the last time this topic came up is still denying the problem.
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ljw81
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:36 pm

All of the associations taking part in Euro 2012 should get together and agree that if any racial abuse occurs in these matches, then both teams should walk off the pitch. That might finally get UEFA, Ukraine and Poland to take notice and do something about the problem.

If a single player walks off the pitch, nothing will be done apart form that player getting severly punished by UEFA.

Hopefully there will be no trouble and it will be a great tournament. Im really looking forward to it.
 
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OA260
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:43 am

Quoting ljw81 (Reply 31):
All of the associations taking part in Euro 2012 should get together and agree that if any racial abuse occurs in these matches, then both teams should walk off the pitch.

  

Seems like our fears were valid !

Netherlands squad subjected to racist chants and monkey gestures at open training session in Poland

Fears of a backdrop of racism at Euro 2012 have unfortunately already begun to be realised, with Netherlands' squad subjected to monkey chants at their open practice session in Krakow in Poland, on Thursday.

The news came just hours before the tournament kicks off, with co-hosts Poland facing Greece in Warsaw.

Reports indicate that black players in the squad, including Manchester City’s Nigel de Jong and Ajax’s Gregory van der Wiel, were targeted by hundreds of the 25,000-strong crowd as they jogged around Stadion Miejski.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/football...oland/story-fndz7cg9-1226389014470
 
Hywel
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:08 pm

Weapons confiscated from Polish hooligans by Polish Police:



Polish Police kitted out with guns, handcuffs, pepper spray, body armour, helmets and shields:



It's reassuring to see the Police trying to do something about the problem, although I don't think it's enough. A total boycott is needed to highlight the severity of the problem.
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:36 pm

Can we start by understanding that weapons confiscated by police usually have very little to do with football. The british police showed off oldschool weapons from a so called Chelsea hooligan in the late eighties. He was a collector, the weapons still made the BBC news in may when they discussed potential riots during the Euros...
(And no England fans wont kick off in Ukriane, no way with those accomodation prices and distances)

Hooligans are a very mixed bunch of people, often from minorities. Thats usually fotgotten.

What UEFA has done about this percieved threat of racism is mandate that any player protesting against rascism from the stands will get an automatic booking. Platini as always knows how to handle an issue. Thank f*ck him and not the English press/prawn sandwich brigade/cultural elite dictates how football is run.

And its no surprise that some of the posters bringing this up in this thread tend to watch very little football even calling it rather patronising terms soemtimes.
Easier to be opinionated about a subject when one isnt interested or have knowledge...
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par13del
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:40 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 1):
UEFA is all about money and the could not care less about things like human rights, equality etc.

So are they responsible for the individual nations letting their players compete while the politicians are able to express indignation and boycott the festivities? Will these politicians be fined by their nations for not participating or are only the players held to such standards and not their leaders who pass laws and accept treaties that ensure their citizens participation and codes of conduct?
Is this is a double standard, can players also express their moral indignation and not participate?
 
Danny
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:11 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 33):
It's reassuring to see the Police trying to do something about the problem, although I don't think it's enough. A total boycott is needed to highlight the severity of the problem.

You obviously haven no clue what you are talking about. These weapons are collector's and were confiscated in UK.

The guns your are so exited about are for rubber bullets. They cause pain but don't hurt.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
Seems like our fears were valid !

NO - there's group of media who's agenda is to prove that Poland is a racist country. I would not be surprised if they organized or paid those few idiots who shouted at Netherland's training.

This is how we welcomed Ireland:
http://i47.tinypic.com/j65svt.jpg
and this is how 99,9% of Poles feel about the Euro and all the coming teams and fans.
 
dcaviation
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:26 pm

Superfly, do you read what you write here? Are you really that ignorant?
You are giving couple of examples from Russia/Ukraine or "Eastern Europe" but you are putting blind eye on this problem in your neighborhood. Right in front of your nose.

"Hosting an international soccer event in the Ukraine, Russia or any Eastern European country is a really stupid idea."

Why are you being such a prejudice against poor people in Ukraine, Russia or "any Eastern European country" ?
WTH is wrong with you? Generalizing all people because of few incidents?
I hate to break it to you, but in USA alone we had more hate crimes last year then in entire Europe put together.

Also, I'm sorry to inform you, but Russia will host Winter Olympics in Sochi 2014.

If you are such a racism disguised person, why don't you start with neo-nazi groups in USA? Oh, wait a minute, they are allowed to exist in USA but they are not allowed in Europe?

Like I've said above, before you start steering crap about Eastern Europe, start with your neighborhood.
 
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OA260
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 36):

Seriously what are you smoking ? Quite alarming and naive comment .
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:56 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Another former soviet country whose transition to democracy didn't go as it should...

As a number of Russian friends have pointed out Ukraine never was a country, and it should never have been a country, Ukranians are just Russians by another name. Especially in the South it's always been Russian, it's never been Ukrainian until Khrushchev cocked things up and transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Hosting an international soccer event in the Ukraine, Russia or any Eastern European country is a really stupid idea.

That's a fairly inaccurate generalisation, there are plenty of Eastern European countries which you'll never have any problems in.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:09 pm

Racism, wherever it occurs displays ignorance, intolerance and stupidity. No Business with any sense would back it except where money is to be made through of idiotic tribalism.

Which may go some way to explaining why the football authorities seek to impose penalties against players who walk off rather than the host. It is easier to get rid of an individual, troublesome player than lose the potential income from maybe (overtly) racist crowds. This is why I was not shocked by the Association's threat to those players who walk off.

This to me is more of a problem then the the mindless morons on the terraces. The Association had made it clear that the threat to their profits is more important than the safety and dignity of the players.

I must admit that I am concerned that some of the reporting has not been completely honest. (We are dealing with the media so why would that surprise is?   ) The BBC quoted one person who stressed that racism was not general and that instances were limited to the terraces, yet, according to the Guardian, that person has lodged a complaint that what he actually said was taken as a generalisation of society and not specific to football thugs. The BBC has gone into damage control, denied the claims made by the person they interviewed and stand by their story on the grounds that they have footage of events at football matches.

I am 100% sure that racism exists among football "supporters" in Poland and Ukraine in the same way that I am 100% sure that it exists in other venues. Given that the whole basis of football is rivalry it is not surprising that the tribalism fostered results in displays of naked and primitive hatreds. As long as the people who run football can make money out of it they will turn a blind eye to it. And that is exactly why they target the players who walk off rather than the crowd who bey for blood.
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Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:32 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 33):

Very disturbing indeed. Not sure why such weapons need to be brought to watch a sporting event.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Seriously what are you smoking ? Quite alarming and naive comment .

Same for dcaviation.
Given all the supporting evidence the best they can do insult other members and deny the problem exist. It's a fact that nationalism is on the rise in Eastern Europe and it really comes out during these soccer games. Rather than acknowledge the problem, they deny it even exist which pretty much tells us that they sympathize with these thugs and are probably member themselves.
Looks like a lot of these thugs are here in these forums and goes to show how prevalent these prejudice attitudes are tolerated in this part of the world.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 37):
I'm sorry to inform you, but Russia will host Winter Olympics in Sochi 2014.

Well aware of that and concerns about skinhead attacks have been addresses and are still of concern for many participating countries.
Looks like you're friends are looking forward to the event.
http://whitepowerforum.com/index.php/tag/2014-winter-olympics/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/wo...-12russiapress-review.6627066.html
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Derico
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:46 pm

Complete black eye on all of Europe.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
It's a fact that nationalism is on the rise in Eastern Europe and it really comes out during these soccer games.

What do you consider Eastern Europe, places like Estonia, Latvia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia are nothing like Ukraine, Belorussia......
 
Danny
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:34 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Seriously what are you smoking ? Quite alarming and naive comment .

Same for dcaviation.

Not smoking anything but I live here. I just stated the fact that you know nothing about Poland and make your judgments based on sensational and biased journalism.The BBC movie was so biased that even Jewish organizations (who were shown as victims) protested against it.

Yesterday the Euro started, there was absolutely fantastic atmosphere in both Warsaw and Wroclaw stadiums. Hundreds of thousands of people enjoyed the matches fan-zones with absolutely zero incidents of any kind. You must be disappointed but that is the truth.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:50 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
Just look at the irrational statements above about" Londonistan".

Irrational? If you make such a big deal out of racism as a threat to Euro in Poland, then I think it is as much as relevant to question how fit is London for the Olympics given its politically uber-correct police where certain officers can pick and choose which duties they will carry out, failure to get rid of even most notorious immigrant extremists and very recent history of terrorist attacks and/or racially motivated riots in its suburbs.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
Maybe the hosts will surprise us all and have huge anti racism adverts on their national TV networks before all the games and anti racism exhibitions outside the stadiums with active participation from the major Polish and Ukranian football teams.

This sounds like ideas of some clueless EUrocrat who thinks that best way to solve anything is to plaster it with stupid posters, appoint a commission or two and have an "exhibition"...

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 39):
As a number of Russian friends have pointed out Ukraine never was a country, and it should never have been a country, Ukranians are just Russians by another name.

Yeah, as if they are any authority to say who can be a country and who can't.
Isn't a.net wonderful? From discussing one hysterical comment by some second rate football player and biased "documentary" by BBC with their obvious agenda we ended up questioning right to independence of a whole country. As they say, opinions are like an ass-hole. Everybody has one.
 
Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 44):
You must be disappointed

Why would I be disappointed?
IF what you are saying is true than that is wonderful. I have no vendetta against your country. You need to stop being so sensitive just because someone pointed out a problem in your country.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
Irrational? If you make such a big deal out of racism as a threat to Euro in Poland, then I think it is as much as relevant to question how fit is London for the Olympics given its politically uber-correct police where certain officers can pick and choose which duties they will carry out, failure to get rid of even most notorious immigrant extremists and very recent history of terrorist attacks and/or racially motivated riots in its suburbs.

You and OA260 both have valid points. I'm not sure if the terrorist in London will target a soccer game because they like soccer too.
I hope all the left-wing Europe-worshipers in America are paying attention to this. So many Obama supporters and left-wing American backpackers with their fake Canada flags worship Europe and think the entire European continent is a perfect utopia. Europe has it's fair-share of serious problems. Islamfication in the West and nationalist skinhead attacks in the East. As someone who enjoyed playing soccer as a kid and on a team at the ages of 12-14, I can't figure out why adults gets so emotional and passionate about something most Americans just consider a kid's sport - soccer.
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ba6590
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:49 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 46):
I can't figure out why adults gets so emotional and passionate about something most Americans just consider a kid's sport - soccer.

Probably for the same reasons American adults get all emotional and passionate about sports most of the world doesn't care about.
 
Superfly
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:55 am

Quoting ba6590 (Reply 47):
Probably for the same reasons American adults get all emotional and passionate about sports most of the world doesn't care about.

Yet I don't see the same level of hatred & violence associated with sporting events in the US.
Bring back the Concorde
 
ba6590
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:04 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
Yet I don't see the same level of hatred & violence associated with sporting events in the US.

Ah I get you, not really sure why. It certainly does bring out the worst in some people. Maybe all the alcohol.
I must say though all the matches I watched last season, although passionate were not violant in any way at all. But I agree thats not the state everywhere.
 
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OA260
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
Irrational?

Well you do seem to have a history of extreme views so forgive us all for not picking you up on it . We can only go by the history of your posts. You do understand .

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
If you make such a big deal out of racism

Sorry if anti racism comments offend you .

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
This sounds like ideas of some clueless EUrocrat who thinks that best way to solve anything is to plaster it with stupid posters, appoint a commission or two and have an "exhibition"...

Again sorry if anti racism campaigns offend you .

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
As they say, opinions are like an ass-hole. Everybody has one.

Indeed You said it !
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:35 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
Yet I don't see the same level of hatred & violence associated with sporting events in the US.

Yes. Perhaps here in the U.S. we have more of a "team spirit" going on. When I am thinking of my sports favs I not even thinking race or religion. I just don't care about such things to begin with.
Same thing with my close friends. I never stop to contemplate their ethnicity or faith. They are my friends----period.
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MillwallSean
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RE: Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.

Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:10 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 44):
Yesterday the Euro started, there was absolutely fantastic atmosphere in both Warsaw and Wroclaw stadiums. Hundreds of thousands of people enjoyed the matches fan-zones with absolutely zero incidents of any kind. You must be disappointed but that is the truth.

hmm and when we know move from the BBC and the British elite tot he real tournament we have seen the issues with poland and Ukraine.
Its not about racism.
Its about in Polands case old fashioned hooliganism and in Ukraines case poverty.

While the first day might have been great, Polish hooligans attacked normal supporters both English and Russian in places such as Lodz, Krakow and Wroclaw.
Russian supporters kicked the living daylight out of a few polish guards as well.

Over Ukraine a Spanish tourist wa skilled in rather suspicious circumstances. Suspicious in regards to what the spanish supporter really was doing and why he was where he was.
Gay, looking for Ukrainian girls or just very naive. We shall see.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 46):
I hope all the left-wing Europe-worshipers in America are paying attention to this. So many Obama supporters and left-wing American backpackers with their fake Canada flags worship Europe and think the entire European continent is a perfect utopia. Europe has it's fair-share of serious problems. Islamfication in the West and nationalist skinhead attacks in the East. As someone who enjoyed playing soccer as a kid and on a team at the ages of 12-14, I can't figure out why adults gets so emotional and passionate about something most Americans just consider a kid's sport - soccer.

First we refer to the sport as football. Saying soccer is something more likely to get you into trouble, serious trouble, than race will ever be. Its good to keep that perspective because it puts things in place.

Second what Americans consider childish is rather pointless. they can stick to world finals in sports them and a few Caribbean islands care about while we play the biggest, most prosperous, most watched and most talked about game in the world.

Third, if you spend the majority of threads saying you're not interested in football, calling half the English population hooligans (not knowing what a hooligan is or look like) I don't think its appropriate to have as many opinions about football. Try a few games than return and you can have opinions. You might even learn something. (and pls dont say soccer - I dont want to pay for your hospital bill)
I know just the right lads down Millwall that would give you an experience youll never forget. Dont worry its SE London so there will be quite a few black faces...
Otherwise start with a feisty local derby in Rome, Athens, Istanbul or Belgrade. Eyeopener indeed.

Somehow I feel the same talking the worlds biggets sport here as when i debate Cuba with Americans. Heaps of opinions - zero knowledge.


Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 51):

Yes. Perhaps here in the U.S. we have more of a "team spirit" going on. When I am thinking of my sports favs I not even thinking race or religion. I just don't care about such things to begin with.

You don't get it. Football isn't race or religion. Its tribal.
tribal first, second and third.
Race, religion doesn't matter as long s you're the same tribe.

And it differs 100% from US sport. We don't go to games to eat, drink and be entertained.
We go to create the entertainment ourselves.

Its two different concepts, one is business the other one is passion.
I love to attend a game or two of NHL or NBA. Its nice, people get entertained, eat and laugh, no one is hardcore supporter. After the game people walk home happily - win or loose.
That concept just doesn't exist in Europe.
In the US companies buys tickets they give to customers from game to game and there is no organised passion or supporter movements. No singing, no tifos, no capos and no away travel. people sit on their bums eating popcorn drinking watered down lager while in Europe the crowd is expected to make the difference.

I have seen something more similar to Europe in US college sports, minus the atmosphere. Its a better comparison I belive.
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