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Dreadnought
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Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:26 pm

Now we see why Big Unions are so set against Gov. Scott Walker and set up next week's recall vote. One of Walker's reforms was to eliminate mandatory union membership and dues deducted straight from your salary. Now that it's no longer obligatory, former members are voting with their feet and leaving the unions.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304821304577436462413999718.html

Quote:
Public-employee unions in Wisconsin have experienced a dramatic drop in membership—by more than half for the second-biggest union—since a law championed by Republican Gov. Scott Walker sharply curtailed their ability to bargain over wages and working conditions.

...

Wisconsin membership in the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees—the state's second-largest public-sector union after the National Education Association, which represents teachers—fell to 28,745 in February from 62,818 in March 2011

Big Union is all about money, folks.

[Edited 2012-06-02 11:28:44]
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Mir
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Now that it's no longer obligatory, former members are voting with their feet and leaving the unions.

Or it might be because the unions have been neutered. Why pay dues to a union if it's not legally able to do anything for you?

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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Or it might be because the unions have been neutered. Why pay dues to a union if it's not legally able to do anything for you?

You don't bail in the middle of a fight. I think the vast majority of those who bailed probably wanted to bail for years, and did not think that their dues were worth the money.
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windy95
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
. I think the vast majority of those who bailed probably wanted to bail for years, and did not think that their dues were worth the money.




My thoughts exactly. And the very reason that Walker will still win big on Tuesday. The Union bosses know this is the beginning for the end for public sector unions.

In Louisiana this year they are starting a statewide voucher program that will allow students of parent's who make below $60K to receive vouchers to transfer to private schools including religious schools of any-kind. The teacher's union's are thinking about a law suit butI I do not think they will try.
 
Flighty
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sat Jun 02, 2012 8:48 pm

Just wait until it happens in California. Regular people do not support the wealthy and powerful unions. Ideally wealth is earned from, not taxed from, regular people.

It is really a subject for Democratic primaries; there are plenty of pro-choice, liberal people who do not support public sector unions. Children in inner cities are (as Romney correctly noted) receiving a third world education thanks to a stranglehold on education budgets by big union. In Palo Alto, crime is increasing because the police force is cut way down from prior levels -- because retirees make $95k pensions on average, after making $109k on average in wages. LIberal people do not support these things, or in any case, their support is vulnerable.

I agree Walker will win.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.

And Big Corporations are not ? Or are they all about caring for the po' folk ?

More like, Big Union is all about political influence. From what I can gather in our snowy tundra, Walker will likely keep his job, but he seems such an arrogant ass I hope the good people of Wisconsin give him the bum's rush.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:32 pm

As soon as I entered this thread, the only thing that came to my mind was this video.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
windy95
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:19 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5):
From what I can gather in our snowy tundra, Walker will likely keep his job

He will win easily.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5):
Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.


And Big Corporations are not ?

The problem is that the unions are not in it for the people, they are in it for the money and the power for themselves. Many workers feel like the work for two masters. And the one master only takes money and gives us nothing back.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 7):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5):
Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.


And Big Corporations are not ?

The problem is that the unions are not in it for the people, they are in it for the money and the power for themselves. Many workers feel like the work for two masters. And the one master only takes money and gives us nothing back.

And...you still don't see the resemblance between that analogy and a corporation?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
windy95
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:49 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
And...you still don't see the resemblance between that analogy and a corporation?

Yes, but I only want one master and that would be the company that supplies my paycheck. The union for the most part is just leeching from the company and the employees they are supposed to serve.
 
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:01 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
You don't bail in the middle of a fight.

The fight is over. These folks are just trying to get a few extra bucks before the big cuts come.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):
The union for the most part is just leeching from the company and the employees they are supposed to serve.

Maybe, but as unions have faded away so have people's wages and benefits. It's no surprise that states with the least unionization have the lowest wages and lowest standards of living.
 
PHX787
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:03 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.

Unions are more or less gangster interest groups who are totally obsolete from their original purpose. If they practiced what they preached, their leaders wouldn't be billionaires. So much corruption in the unions. So pathetic.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Why pay dues to a union if it's not legally able to do anything for you?

They don't need to anymore. Non-union workers are worse off than union workers, but non-union workers want union workers to stop being so greedy.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 7):
He will win easily.

Agreed, most my Wisconsin friends are so livid at the unions.
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:29 am

I'm not even worried about it...Scott Walker's got it in the bag...
Public sector unions are just no good, and in Wisconsin's case a very vocal minority
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:35 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):
Yes, but I only want one master and that would be the company that supplies my paycheck. The union for the most part is just leeching from the company and the employees they are supposed to serve.

OK, well consider this scenario. Let's say you enter a company. You've been working your butt off for years, you become a reputable employee, and the company is in excellent shape, so much that it is making record profits. However, that record profit doesn't make it back to the employees who are the front line of the company and instead is focused among a handful of persons inside an office building hundreds of miles away.

Would you:
a) Ignore the fact that you deserve, at the very least, a raise in your salary, a promotion, or more benefits
b) Use your success (and the company's) to ask for the above?

I admit some have gone overboard demanding when they have enough. However, I don't see why a union can't demand for top officials to take a pay cut or share the wealth when the workers themselves lose benefits. Consider American Airlines for instance, back when Carty was CEO. To save the airline, he asked employees to take pay cuts, to which they agreed. Behind their backs, however, executive compensations were in the making. How can we not justify a union in this scenario? Why should employees, then, have to go through the hardship of a reduction of salary when at an office far away a couple of people are getting thousands of times more in benefits?

So if the company is doing well, I don't see why the wealth can't be shared among all of its employees from the CEO to the janitor. In that sense, having a union "leech" from the company is nothing wrong as long as its not overdone. Likewise, if the company is doing bad but one segment continues to act as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened (ie. board members getting juicy bonuses while planning cuts for the company), the union serves to oversee that it's an all or nothing deal.
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:02 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.

I'm a member of a large union where membership is voluntary. It's not all about money - it's about preventing exploitation of workers by unscrupulous types. Even senior management themselves are members of the union for that reason.

One example is a very well qualified and excellent worker who kept being put on short term contracts through all manners of HR tricks - for an absurdly long period of time. Finally, the position was made permanent after intervention by the union - since it was clearly a permanent role.

Other examples of what the union I'm in does is sorting out pay and leave discrepancies. When they happen, it's much easier to let the union deal with it rather than dealing with it yourself. When the union raises the issue it gets sorted out quick smart. If you complain about it yourself though, it is a different story.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Unions are more or less gangster interest groups who are totally obsolete from their original purpose. If they practiced what they preached, their leaders wouldn't be billionaires.

Come over here and I might you to the two that run the union I'm in. You might be surprised - they are ordinary hard working people like the members they represent. You'd find them a breath of fresh air.

[Edited 2012-06-02 20:09:35]
 
ltbewr
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:07 am

I would suggest several issues at play here. From the article excerpt in the initial post, it seems to be the general state workers who have ditched their union membership and not the police, building trades and teachers unions.

Many union state workers are probably angry that the union leadership didn't fight off Walker and the Republicans right up front and prevent the cuts or went along with them to keep their jobs, so members are telling off the union leaders that they are unhappy with them.
Many union workers may be trying to do anything to keep their jobs. By leaving the unions they may believe they will be showing loyalty to their bosses and supervisors who may be in politically appointed jobs and have the power over their continued employment
Some union members maybe just so desperate to save money - which could be $50 or more per month - especially with the cuts they are facing.
State unionized workers are taxpayers too and want to see tax cuts that can help them.
Many may also be supportive of many other social and political beliefs of the Republicans and don't want their union dues going to the 'tax and spend liberals' Democrats the unions tend to support with money and more.
Some white males and females may be rejecting unions as the unions tend to be supportive of affirmative action, preferences to non-white persons for promotions and job opportunities.

The busting of the unions could have bad effects. More will not have union protections from politicalized appointments or keeping their jobs. What about the teacher who is told to teach creationism or the clerk who blows the whistle on some politically appointed supervisor who is placing poliltical connected persons, friends and family in jobs or promotions instead of fair opportunities for all. What about people who have worked for years, expcting to see a decent pension seeing it wiped out? Some of the issues facing unions and their workers come from the excesses of unions themselves and corrupt leadership. But without unions in the end the public will suffer.
 
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:16 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
politicalized appointments
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
bosses and supervisors who may be in politically appointed jobs and have the power over their continued employment

Those two things are huge problems. Appointments to those kinds of positions should be on merit, rather than being politically motivated. But it'll never happen - because political parties will always do that, and the supporters of political parties always embrace it as a way of extending the power and influence of their favourite political party.

While governments exist, that will always happen.

Governments always want their own friends in positions of power. It always happens, especially when governments change. They will always get rid of the existing heads of government departments, no matter how effective those people were.

Sometimes, rarely - miracles do happen and effective people do manage to retain their positions. But it's the exception, rather than the general rule.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:26 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
Maybe, but as unions have faded away so have people's wages and benefits.

Union membership peaked in the late 40s. Americans of all income levels have better wages and benefits than they did in the Truman era.  
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
It's no surprise that states with the least unionization have the lowest wages and lowest standards of living.

Horray for sweeping generalizations with no context. States with low unionization also tend to have lower cost of living, so your wages go further. Right now I'm paying through the nose to live in Massachusetts and have no better "standard of living" than when I lived in Texas.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
In Louisiana this year they are starting a statewide voucher program that will allow students of parent's who make below $60K to receive vouchers to transfer to private schools including religious schools of any-kind. The teacher's union's are thinking about a law suit butI I do not think they will try.

IMO, U.S. politics is about to enter a fascinating era. While Congress has essentially avoided taking dramatic action toward fiscal stability, states have been charting bold and divergent paths. States like NJ, WI, SC, and LA have pressed major conservative initiatives like checking public unions, aggressively balancing budgets, and privatizing public education. Even Cuomo in NY has quietly used conservative means to restore growth. Then you have CA and IL basically doubling-down on fiscal liberalism. In a few years, we will know whose model is the better path to success, and that will put a lot of pressure on Congress to get out of deadlock.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Unions are more or less gangster interest groups who are totally obsolete from their original purpose. If they practiced what they preached, their leaders wouldn't be billionaires.

Care to provide an example of a union leader who is a billionaire ?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
States with low unionization also tend to have lower cost of living, so your wages go further.

So being poor in a state with no infrastructure balances the equation ?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
Right now I'm paying through the nose to live in Massachusetts and have no better "standard of living" than when I lived in Texas.

Move back to Texas then.

[Edited 2012-06-02 20:45:35]
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seb146
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:13 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
In Louisiana this year they are starting a statewide voucher program that will allow students of parent's who make below $60K to receive vouchers

So, how are those hundreds of thousands of vouchers being paid for?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
Children in inner cities are (as Romney correctly noted) receiving a third world education thanks to a stranglehold on education budgets by big union.

Actually, no. It is because there is no money from taxes to give to schools. And police. And fire fighters. It has nothing to do with unions and more to do with the ultra wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes.

Look at it this way: If the ultra wealthy like Sam Walton and Mitt Romney really had crated jobs from their wealth in this country, the unemployment rate would be near zero, schools would be drowning in cash, and no one would have to worry about health care at all ever. That is the right-wing train of thought. Why, then, is unemployment at 8.2%, schools closing, and emergency rooms still the best way to recieve any care at all?
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:54 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 7):
He will win easily.

Agreed, most my Wisconsin friends are so livid at the unions.

Don't be so sure. The general population will turn out in their usual 50% or so participation rate, but the unions will have 99% of their activists voting.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
So, how are those hundreds of thousands of vouchers being paid for?

Diverting money from the Public School system.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Actually, no. It is because there is no money from taxes to give to schools. And police. And fire fighters. It has nothing to do with unions and more to do with the ultra wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes.

Thank you Michael Moore. The per-student budget for 2011-2012 for the Detroit Public School system is a hair under $19,000 per year. I looked at the tuition rates for private schools in the area, and the Public schools seem to cost right about the same. The only private school that cost more in the area that I could find was a boarding/day school that had their own olympic pools, and a golf course.

I'm still curious how you can say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes when they basically pay all of the taxes.
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windy95
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
So, how are those hundreds of thousands of vouchers being paid for?

The voucher money is diverted from the public school the child was attending

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Thank you Michael Moore. The per-student budget for 2011-2012 for the Detroit Public School system is a hair under $19,000 per year.

It is not what is spent it is how it is spent.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:48 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
Horray for sweeping generalizations with no context.

It may be a sweeping generalization, but overall it is true. The conservative red states have lower standards of living, higher rates of poverty, lower rates of educational attainment, lower life expectancies and a higher reliance on federal welfare.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
The per-student budget for 2011-2012 for the Detroit Public School system is a hair under $19,000 per year. I looked at the tuition rates for private schools in the area, and the Public schools seem to cost right about the same.

It's easy to keep your costs down when you can pick and choose who you want to admit. This is why vouchers will never work because private schools will never take the "problem" kids. They'll reject them and then they'll be dumped back into public schools that have bee depleted.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I'm still curious how you can say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes when they basically pay all of the taxes.

Note, he said "ultra wealthy". Mitt Romney paid a lower percentage in taxes than I did, even though I make far less than Mitt Romney did.
 
windy95
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:38 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
This is why vouchers will never work because private schools will never take the "problem" kids. They'll reject them and then they'll be dumped back into public schools that have bee depleted.

But it will work for the kid who does get to leave the crappy public school. So at least they all will not have to suffer.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
". Mitt Romney paid a lower percentage in taxes than I did, even though I make far less than Mitt Romney did.

Seeing how in 2010 Romney made $0 dollars of wage income I believe your statement to be false.
 
seb146
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I'm still curious how you can say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes when they basically pay all of the taxes.

If they pay "all the taxes" (your words, not mine) why are there no jobs? Why are the schools in disrepair? Why are police and fire fighters being cut? Why are the roads so bad?

Here's why: There are only a few thousand of them paying 15% or less once a year. Some even get that back! Constrast that to the millions of us paying 35% or more every week or two from our paychecks.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Diverting money from the Public School system.

Why even bother to have private schools, then? Besides, in private schools, a corporation decides curriculum. Meaning: if a corporation decides they want to rewrite history, they can and no one can do anything about it. If a corporation decides to teach creationism instead of evolution and delcare evolution utterly false, they can. As if our kids are not dumb enough, they will be dumbed down even further with corporate, private schools. That sounds just great, doesn't it?
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Besides, in private schools, a corporation decides curriculum. Meaning: if a corporation decides they want to rewrite history, they can and no one can do anything about it. If a corporation decides to teach creationism instead of evolution and delcare evolution utterly false, they can. As if our kids are not dumb enough, they will be dumbed down even further with corporate, private schools. That sounds just great, doesn't it?

Actually, not true, at least not everywhere. The private school MUST set a curriculum based on the state's department of education. If the school is a religious one, religion should only be focused on that course specifically. In biology, the theory of evolution is just like Newton's Laws in physics: you cannot teach it any other way. The teacher might disagree (though why would he/she teach something that goes against what he/she believes in is baffling), but it is the teacher's responsibility to teach every subject as it is stipulated.

The only subject here that is prone to manipulation is history, but then again, history has always been a debatable topic: what really happened before we were born? Did things happen like they are told or is it only just the writer's side of the story?
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connies4ever
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Don't be so sure. The general population will turn out in their usual 50% or so participation rate, but the unions will have 99% of their activists voting.

If a union member is voting, then he is an "activist" ? What about someone (non-union) voting against recall. Why is he/she not an "activist"? One presumes for the Tea party.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
It may be a sweeping generalization, but overall it is true. The conservative red states have lower standards of living, higher rates of poverty, lower rates of educational attainment, lower life expectancies and a higher reliance on federal welfare.

   From the extensive time I spent in North Carolina, I'd have to agree, y'all.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
It's easy to keep your costs down when you can pick and choose who you want to admit. This is why vouchers will never work because private schools will never take the "problem" kids. They'll reject them and then they'll be dumped back into public schools that have bee depleted.

Correct. "Problem" students gobble up a huge amount of the teachers time, thus limiting the amount of productive teaching time for the great majority of the student body. My sister-in-law taught high school in suburban Vancouver and I can tell you checking bathrooms for kids injecting (both boys and girls) caused her no end of stress and guilt re not addressing the majority students' needs.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I'm still curious how you can say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes when they basically pay all of the taxes.

If they pay "all the taxes" (your words, not mine) why are there no jobs? Why are the schools in disrepair? Why are police and fire fighters being cut? Why are the roads so bad?

Indeed. Why are some towns in Georgia actually going naked ? (No police, no fire) But at least it's a "right to work" state. That's if there are any jobs.

Keep in mind, this is not just an American problem. It's a global problem. In Canada we have many of the same situations, perhaps not to the extent that you guys do, but they're there. But somehow the right wingers (or perhaps our now seemingly corporate government) have sold the public (or maybe sold the media) on the need to cut cut cut.

As for Europe, yikes. Right wingers increasingly coming to the fore (France perhaps being an exception). Not a coincidence, I think, but also an increasing emergence and acceptance of neo-Nazi movements. Not a comforting thought.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Diverting money from the Public School system.

Why even bother to have private schools, then? Besides, in private schools, a corporation decides curriculum. Meaning: if a corporation decides they want to rewrite history, they can and no one can do anything about it. If a corporation decides to teach creationism instead of evolution and delcare evolution utterly false, they can. As if our kids are not dumb enough, they will be dumbed down even further with corporate, private schools. That sounds just great, doesn't it?


Again agreed. Corporations really should have no say in curriculum. From where I am, and accuse me of being as elitist as Obama may be, but a traditional liberal arts education is still the best way to go, with curricula decided by a "committee of elders", if you will. People who have distinguished themselves in education. hand it over to Big Money and you might as well hand government over entirely to Big Money (instead of only partially, which we have now).
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
So being poor in a state with no infrastructure balances the equation ?

Texas has no infrastructure? You can't be serious.  
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
Move back to Texas then.

I absolutely will when I finish the temporary assignment that brought me here. I take it you are unaware that Americans are doing exactly what you suggest and moving out of blue states toward red states. Literally millions of people have left CA, MI, and NY in the last decade.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
It may be a sweeping generalization, but overall it is true. The conservative red states have lower standards of living, higher rates of poverty, lower rates of educational attainment, lower life expectancies and a higher reliance on federal welfare.

It's obvious that you haven't considered any normalizing factors. Take education. Texas has lower standardized testing scores than Wisconsin. Stop there and you completely miss the bigger picture. In reality, every demographic in Texas outperforms its Wisconsin counterpart. However, whites outperform Hispanics, and Texas has a vastly larger Hispanic population. Wisconsin only achieves a higher average than Texas because it is "more white," even though whites in Texas are better educated.

Look at other factors like climate, demographics, traditional reliance on agriculture, percent of English first language, and your misconceptions stop looking "overall true."

[Edited 2012-06-03 09:26:03]
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:54 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
If they pay "all the taxes" (your words, not mine) why are there no jobs?

There a hundred plus million people in the workforce. You can't be taken seriously when you say things like this.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Why are the schools in disrepair?

Not because of any lack of funding. Like health care, the U.S. outspends virtually all other developed nations on a per student basis. We have a large segment of the population that doesn't value education just like we have a large segment of the population that doesn't value taking basic preventative healthcare steps.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Why are police and fire fighters being cut?

Because their wages and benefits are ridiculous.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Why are the roads so bad?

They are bad in the places that made road repairs a low priority.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Here's why: There are only a few thousand of them paying 15% or less once a year. Some even get that back! Constrast that to the millions of us paying 35% or more every week or two from our paychecks.

Capital gains income deserves special treatment versus ordinary income in our market-driven economy. Setting that aside, you again don't know basic facts about the economy, in this case the tax code. Those with significant capital gains income may be required to make a quarterly payment of estimated tax to the IRS or be faced with penalties.

You are also misrepresenting the tax rate on middle-class income earners, it is far from the 35% rate on top income earners. For median income earners, the federal income tax rate is about 15%.

[Edited 2012-06-03 09:57:33]
 
Mir
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:13 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
I'm a member of a large union where membership is voluntary. It's not all about money - it's about preventing exploitation of workers by unscrupulous types.

But then how do you prevent people free-riding off of the union's work without paying dues? That's the real problem with voluntary unions (an idea which, in principle, I agree with, but it becomes very difficult in practice).

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
But it will work for the kid who does get to leave the crappy public school. So at least they all will not have to suffer.

Or you could just make the public schools better. And then nobody would have to suffer.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
connies4ever
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:24 pm

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
Texas has no infrastructure? You can't be serious.

Sure it does, in many areas. But look at large swathes of Georgia and Bama.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
I take it you are unaware that Americans are doing exactly what you suggest and moving out of blue states toward red states. Literally millions of people have left CA, MI, and NY in the last decade.

I am aware that there has been outmigration from these states. To where, I am not certain.

Look at Canada for a change: the largest migration in the country's history has been from Central Canada to the West. Manitoba: socialist government, Saskatchewan: was socialist, now conservative, rich in resources, Alberta: "soft" conservative, also rich in resources, British Columbia: liberal, ,might as well be socialist (and will be after next spring's election).

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
Look at other factors like climate, demographics, traditional reliance on agriculture, percent of English first language, and your misconceptions stop looking "overall true."

Looking at the eastern part of the sunbelt:
climate => increasingly hot and dry, leading to agriculture declining. You can only pull so much from the aquifer.
% of Eng. 1st langauge => I think in Texas now it's a race between English and Spanish. Mexico might not get it back legally, but functionally perhaps
demographics => the Hispanics out-birth Anglos by a wide margin
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
luckyone
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
Sure it does, in many areas. But look at large swathes of Georgia and Bama.

And large swaths of blue states like California, Illinois, and Upstate NY. Utter boondocks and just as full of rednecks.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
I am aware that there has been outmigration from these states. To where, I am not certain.

They're certainly not shuffling between each other. Look at the states that have population gains. They are overwhelmingly red.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Thank you Michael Moore. The per-student budget for 2011-2012 for the Detroit Public School system is a hair under $19,000 per year

What is the source on that? I am a teacher in a fairly well off district in metro Detroit and our funding is less than 1/2 of that. I have never heard that figure before. If you include federal money you may be able to get that high, but they get less than 1/2 that from the state.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
But it will work for the kid who does get to leave the crappy public school. So at least they all will not have to suffer.

Be careful what you wish for. I worked in a charter school that was just as crappy as Detroit Public Schools and it is now closed. Sure, the modern building looked good, but the students were terrible. I can't tell you how many parents told me how happy they were to take their kids out of DPS, but after a while you began to see it was their children who were making DPS terrible.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 26):
From where I am, and accuse me of being as elitist as Obama may be, but a traditional liberal arts education is still the best way to go, with curricula decided by a "committee of elders", if you will.

Liberal arts education is a waste of time for a lot of people. Students who show a desire need to be steered into the trades. A guy who is a car mechanic is a lot better equipped to make money than somebody with a creative writing degree.

I usually don't support my union on a lot of things, but I do agree with them on somethings. I worked in a charter school and the I know a lot of people who do/did and they are usually terrible as far as how employees are treated. The best teacher and administrators leave because the pay sucks. You can't expect high quality teachers to stick around if they earn less than what you can earn working at some lame call center. The charter company I worked for had no system in place for pay raises because nobody ever worked there long enough to earn a pay raise, at 6 years I was their longest standing employee. I got a couple of raises only because I brought it to their attention that I still worked there and my pay was just moved up to whatever the base rate was at the time. I left when I finally figured out that all of the Career & Technical Education money we were supposed to be putting into the CTE program was just going into the general fund, which is against the law, and nobody cared because the more money we got the higher the 20% cut for the charter school company was. I was also disgusted that when we built a new building that everyone who got a contract for the building and various services were all related to the charter school company's owners, as were all of the school board members.

People want to talk about schools wasting taxpayer dollars, but I never saw such waste as I did in the charter school business.

A lot of people bitch that school teachers make too much and get a lot of vacation time, keep in mind that, in Michigan any way, we only get paid for time we actually work. Most of us have the school stretch the money out over 12 months, but we are not required to do that. Charter Schools in Michigan are the same way.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
Mir
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:00 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
A lot of people bitch that school teachers make too much and get a lot of vacation time

Seriously? I don't doubt that it happens, but anyone who believe that needs to get their head examined.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
windy95
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:42 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
I am aware that there has been outmigration from these states. To where, I am not certain

Florida, Texas, Arizona and the South Carolina have had the biggest gains the last ten years. With most coming from Blue states.

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
Or you could just make the public schools better. And then nobody would have to suffer

Yes I would have to suffer for paying for a syatem I will not use.
 
Flighty
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Actually, no. It is because there is no money from taxes to give to schools. And police. And fire fighters. It has nothing to do with unions and more to do with the ultra wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes.

This graph might interest you. It shows that we fund our K-12 years more heavily than any country except Switzerland.

http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd

Funding is not the reason why our schools are dysfunctional organizations. Labor relations usually is the reason. In private school, lazy employees get the boot. I have seen it. In the government they do not. Seen that too.

My solution is simply to close failing districts, as any failing organization should be. Just close it. Leave the funding available for newer, equally accountable schools to spring up.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:45 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
But it will work for the kid who does get to leave the crappy public school. So at least they all will not have to suffer.

Until the private school collapses or until the kid can't pay for all his books/uniforms/transportation that the private school requires.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
My solution is simply to close failing districts, as any failing organization should be. Just close it. Leave the funding available for newer, equally accountable schools to spring up.

And when new schools don't open up, what happens to all those children?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Yes I would have to suffer for paying for a syatem I will not use.

And you'll suffer when kids get no education and come knocking at your door to rob you or worse?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
Seeing how in 2010 Romney made $0 dollars of wage income I believe your statement to be false.

So people who work should be penalized versus those who live purely off investments? Why should anybody work? Shouldn't we all just stop doing anything and just put all our money in investments?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Note, he said "ultra wealthy". Mitt Romney paid a lower percentage in taxes than I did, even though I make far less than Mitt Romney did.

Oh, god, another person who can't tell the difference between Earned revenue (which is only taxed once) and capital gains (which is already taxed twice)

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
What is the source on that? I am a teacher in a fairly well off district in metro Detroit and our funding is less than 1/2 of that. I have never heard that figure before. If you include federal money you may be able to get that high, but they get less than 1/2 that from the state.
http://detroitk12.org/data/

My biggest question is why they are still spending so much building new schools. 10 new state-of-the-art school buildings or major renovations opening in September. New netbook PCs to be given to all Grade 6-12 students. It sure doesn't seem like money is lacking.

I also note that while students per classroom is budgeted to be between 25 and 35 (depending on grade level), the report over 15,000 school district employees for 67,000 students. It seems to me that they have far too many administrators and other bureaucracy in the system.

As I recall from my private high school, we had about 800 students, 45 teachers and 6 or 7 in administration. How come they need so many staff (I bet you it has something to do with Union rules).
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Flighty
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
And when new schools don't open up, what happens to all those children?

Bus them to a district that is doing well.

That is not a panacea, but typically that is the outcome. Funding always follows the child. If there is a school in a cycle of failure, it is harming the community and it should close. Bizarrely, this is unpopular with the community quite often. It is seen as giving up. To me, that is crazy. It is taking charge and taking action.
 
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cpd
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
But then how do you prevent people free-riding off of the union's work without paying dues? That's the real problem with voluntary unions (an idea which, in principle, I agree with, but it becomes very difficult in practice).

People eventually join up anyway of their own will. I wasn't a member for a long time, then I joined up again after a few things happened that made me think, hmm, I'd better join up again just in case.

We don't have this sort of agressive attitude that you'd hinted at, nor any sort of attitude towards this so called free-riding.

Anyhow, that's how it is, it works well enough. We're all nice people who care about what we are doing, rather than the stererotypical attitudes normally portrayed about us.  

That's how unions remain relevant - by being useful to their members. Mine does other stuff unrelated to my employment which is a nice sort of value-added bonus. Special prices and deals on various things, cheaper rates on home-loans, etc.

[Edited 2012-06-03 16:39:23]
 
Mir
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:36 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Yes I would have to suffer for paying for a syatem I will not use.

You'd still be paying for school vouchers and not be using them. Those don't magically appear out of nowhere - it comes out of the public school budget, which comes out of tax revenue.

The school system, by the way, is not there to serve you (at least not directly - we can talk about the indirect benefit that it brings you by making sure that the future labor force is properly educated). It's purpose is to serve the population under the age of 18.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PPVRA
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
But look at large swathes of Georgia and Bama.

Georgia and Bama have better roads than Illinois. The fact that these states are less densely populated makes it logical to expect fewer miles of any type of infrastructure.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:49 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Oh, god, another person who can't tell the difference between Earned revenue (which is only taxed once) and capital gains (which is already taxed twice)

I'm well aware of the difference. I'm just not sure why investors should pay lower rates than workers. Where is the incentive to actually do real work? Why should anyone become a soldier, teacher, engineer, doctor, etc?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Bus them to a district that is doing well.

So you're going to trash another school district by flooding them with new kids? Tell me, what school districts in the suburbs of Detroit would have the capacity to take all these kids?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Bizarrely, this is unpopular with the community quite often. It is seen as giving up. To me, that is crazy. It is taking charge and taking action.

Because you're not fixing the problem, you're just dumping it off on someone else.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
As I recall from my private high school, we had about 800 students, 45 teachers and 6 or 7 in administration. How come they need so many staff (I bet you it has something to do with Union rules).

Are you including guidance counselors, special ed teachers, bus drivers, janitors, cafeteria workers, facilities maintenance, etc?
 
windy95
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:50 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Until the private school collapses or until the kid can't pay for all his books/uniforms/transportation that the private school requires



Why so negative? Most private schools have been around for a long time and will still be there in the long term. Most private schools also provide for students of low income parent's. I pay full price for my child so that another of lessor means does not have to. With a voucher program the more money could then be spent on uniforms , meals and other items. There would be no issues.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
And you'll suffer when kids get no education and come knocking at your door to rob you or worse?



Then they will come face to face with the arsenal of democracy. What you are not getting is that despite all the money we throw at this system they are still not getting an education. That is even if they do not drop out and finish school. The system is terrible and we should not have to keep paying into a failing system that we do not use. And keep funding unions that hold the kids hostage.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
So people who work should be penalized versus those who live purely off investments?



Penalized is the wrong word. They are simply taxed at a different rate. Remember that money was already taxed as income at one time.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Why should anybody work?



To make and save money.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Shouldn't we all just stop doing anything and just put all our money in investments?



If you have enough money then yes you should. If you do not then keep working until you do. Pretty simple stuff.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
This graph might interest you. It shows that we fund our K-12 years more heavily than any country except Switzerland.



Yet we do not rank in the top 10 in education. I know what to do throw more money at it.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Sun Jun 03, 2012 11:57 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I'm well aware of the difference. I'm just not sure why investors should pay lower rates than workers. Where is the incentive to actually do real work? Why should anyone become a soldier, teacher, engineer, doctor, etc?

You just showed us that you don't understand the difference. When a company pays income taxes, this is money the investor will not be getting. Thus, it's costing the investor money because he owns that company.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I'm well aware of the difference. I'm just not sure why investors should pay lower rates than workers. Where is the incentive to actually do real work? Why should anyone become a soldier, teacher, engineer, doctor, etc?

If they want to not work and simply invest, go ahead... But then you need to work a number of years to get the money together to invest.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
Are you including guidance counselors, special ed teachers, bus drivers, janitors, cafeteria workers, facilities maintenance, etc?

I did. Guidance counselors were also teachers, facilities and maintenance were outsourced (one admin guy to coordinate. The cafeteria was handled by a single person and the help was supplied by students (everyone took turns). Same with janitorial duties - students helped out (and that really reduces the amount of chewing gum and litter being thrown around, I guarantee you). The only thing I did not include was bus drivers - we had no buses.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:40 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 43):
I pay full price for my child so that another of lessor means does not have to.

But paying a higher price for the same product doesn't count as suffering?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
But paying a higher price for the same product doesn't count as suffering?

Do you think it is?
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
vin2basketball
Posts: 215
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RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:07 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
Liberal arts education is a waste of time for a lot of people. Students who show a desire need to be steered into the trades. A guy who is a car mechanic is a lot better equipped to make money than somebody with a creative writing degree.

I usually don't support my union on a lot of things, but I do agree with them on somethings. I worked in a charter school and the I know a lot of people who do/did and they are usually terrible as far as how employees are treated. The best teacher and administrators leave because the pay sucks. You can't expect high quality teachers to stick around if they earn less than what you can earn working at some lame call center. The charter company I worked for had no system in place for pay raises because nobody ever worked there long enough to earn a pay raise, at 6 years I was their longest standing employee. I got a couple of raises only because I brought it to their attention that I still worked there and my pay was just moved up to whatever the base rate was at the time. I left when I finally figured out that all of the Career & Technical Education money we were supposed to be putting into the CTE program was just going into the general fund, which is against the law, and nobody cared because the more money we got the higher the 20% cut for the charter school company was. I was also disgusted that when we built a new building that everyone who got a contract for the building and various services were all related to the charter school company's owners, as were all of the school board members.

People want to talk about schools wasting taxpayer dollars, but I never saw such waste as I did in the charter school business.

A lot of people bitch that school teachers make too much and get a lot of vacation time, keep in mind that, in Michigan any way, we only get paid for time we actually work. Most of us have the school stretch the money out over 12 months, but we are not required to do that. Charter Schools in Michigan are the same way.

Teachers are just about the only class of public employee that are underpaid.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
As I recall from my private high school, we had about 800 students, 45 teachers and 6 or 7 in administration. How come they need so many staff (I bet you it has something to do with Union rules).

This has to do with the false notion that somehow smaller class sizes are better for students.
 
Mir
Posts: 19093
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin

Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 47):
Do you think it is?

"Suffering" is a ridiculously melodramatic word to use, but, setting that aside, it depends on the product. When it comes to basic education, I'd say no.

I'm struggling to figure out how paying taxes for public schools somehow counts as "suffering", but paying taxes for school vouchers, or being forced to overpay for your own child's education, doesn't.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day

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