777way
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Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:51 pm

Good going, there is a limit to being dictated it can really put one off religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uimzl-CxSno
 
kaitak
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:57 pm

One small victory (or, what we saw of it - who knows what went on after the camera was turned off?). Still, good on the women for standing up to the mutawa, but it'll take a lot more than that to change Saudi society.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 7:57 pm

Slowly but surely Saudi Arabia's women are waking up. Last decade this would have been unheard of and punishable immediately.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
GDB
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:58 pm

You wonder what the normal Saudi cops think of the Mutleys, Mutawa, or whatever these jumped up, illiterate, wannabe panty sniffers are called.
Time wasters at the very least.

Brave lady though.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 3):
You wonder what the normal Saudi cops think of the Mutleys, Mutawa, or whatever these jumped up, illiterate, wannabe panty sniffers are called.

School bullies who get official license that they are doing God's work?
-Doc Lightning-

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planejamie
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
School bullies who get official license that they are doing God's work?

  

Having lived in Riyadh for 2 years, they are nothing but a pain. They check that shops close for 30-45 minutes every prayer call (leaving shop keepers fearfully closing the shops only to have all the shoppers, mostly Saudi Nationals and therefore probably Muslim sat outside the shop smoking and the Filipino or Indian shop workers going out the back for a smoke too) and telling 'western' women to cover their heads (despite it not being a law for your head to be covered in a mall or non-religious public place provided they are wearing the all black abaya). The response from the women is normally "If you say please I will" or "Make me" to which they just go away or don't understand.

Personally, I feel they are a bit power-mad and over the top but it's all part of Saudi life and culture, and if you don't like it - there's plenty of more 'open' and 'free' neighbouring countries you can go to, though kudos to this woman for standing up for herself  
 
slider
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:40 pm

Listen, there is a serious women's rights issue in the entire Middle East--this is NOT just a Saudi issue, although their obvious strong-handed Wahhabist-driven bent is certainly more visible.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/23/why_do_they_hate_us

Read. Seriously read. You want to take about a war on women? It's going on right now in front of our very noses and the Western world does shit about it.

I'm very proud and happy to see this woman standing up for herself, but in her world, women are property. Period. Been that way in Islam since, oh, the 7th century.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting planejamie (Reply 5):
and if you don't like it - there's plenty of more 'open' and 'free' neighbouring countries you can go to,

Not if you're a Saudi woman who can't read because you were never permitted to go to school.
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Tugger
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Quoting planejamie (Reply 5):
and if you don't like it - there's plenty of more 'open' and 'free' neighbouring countries you can go to,

Not if you're a Saudi woman who can't read because you were never permitted to go to school.

Can a Saudi woman travel on her own if she wishes? Can she leave the country all by herself with any escort or permission form a man?

Just curious.

Tugg
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ronglimeng
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:11 pm

I enjoyed that piece but it would be nice to learn that the lady is just an ordinary woman who got fed up with these guys rather than a woman of privilege (Saudi Princess or the like), who these V&V boys tangled with by mistake
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:16 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
Can a Saudi woman travel on her own if she wishes? Can she leave the country all by herself with any escort or permission form a man?

Saudi law states that a woman MUST be accompanied by a male guardian (usually a close male relative) wherever she goes. A woman alone in a place other than her home is taboo AFAIK. To leave the country, she must either travel with a male guardian or seek a written permit from him.

IMO, I get that Saudi Arabia is the center of Islam, but wouldn't it make sense for the king to designate the provinces that contain the holy sites as places where Islam customs must be followed without exception, and implement reforms on the rest of the kingdom? I can get that women don't have a problem with the abaya, but having the ability to drive is something I think benefits women, especially if in the situation where she has no male guardian with her. That's another issue: relaxing the rules on male guardianship (even if places are segregated).
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SOBHI51
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:42 pm

The head of the religious police responded by apologising to the woman and ordering an immediate investigation of the action of the person in question as he was acting out of the new guidance. Vice police are only allowed to guide you if you are acting out of order, they can not expel you from the shopping centers, they are not allowed to arrest, touch, harm anybody. As ordered by the king.
Women are responding the way this woman did BTW she is just a normal lady not a princess or anything close to that, that's why you see the police just standing there doing nothing just trying to keep the peace.
Good start for the women in Saudi.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
The head of the religious police responded by apologising to the woman and ordering an immediate investigation of the action of the person in question as he was acting out of the new guidance. Vice police are only allowed to guide you if you are acting out of order, they can not expel you from the shopping centers, they are not allowed to arrest, touch, harm anybody. As ordered by the king.
Women are responding the way this woman did BTW she is just a normal lady not a princess or anything close to that, that's why you see the police just standing there doing nothing just trying to keep the peace.
Good start for the women in Saudi.

I understand that the King curbed the powers of the Mutawa during the last few years, using incidents the Mutawa were involved in to get popular support for his measures. E.g. AFAIK the ban of using violence or physical force came after some Mutawa beat a man to death after they found him not to be praying at prayer time.
The other big thing a few years ago was when a boarding school for girls caught fire during a night and Mutawa sent the girls and teachers back into the burning building because "they were not dressed properly" (having been caught by the fire while in bed, most of them escaped from the building in their night clothes and didn´t have time to put on an Abaya). Several girls and women died, who were also wellconnected and the whole incident caused an outrage in the country.

The problem is that the Mutawa recruit from fundementalist circles and the King has to be very careful as not to overstep a line because some of the radicals will use violence and it might start a civil war. They also have the backing of more conservative feudal tribal leaders. The King has to use incidents like those mentioned above, when he has strong popular support, to restrict the powers of the Mutawa and clerics, and therefore it is a slow process, but the process is definitely there.

I have also heard that the King has founded a university in a city close to the Red Sea, where both young men and women are educated together.

BTW, I was in Sharja, UAE, two weeks ago for work and the women there, even though wearing the Abaya, didn´t seem to be meek, especially those of the immigration department.

Jan
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n229nw
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:21 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 6):
Read. Seriously read. You want to take about a war on women? It's going on right now in front of our very noses and the Western world does shit about it.

I'm very proud and happy to see this woman standing up for herself, but in her world, women are property. Period. Been that way in Islam since, oh, the 7th century.

  

I am not denying that women's rights are much more developed in most "Western" countries compared to most of the Middle East. However:

These blanket statements about Islam are just ridiculous.

The Bible also treats women as property. As much as the Koran. (In Genesis if a bride can't prove her virginity, she should be stoned to death, men were allowed multiple wives, and lovers, women are commanded to marry any man who rapes them, women could be taken as war spoils and forced into marriage, etc. etc. etc.)

And women in "the West" were treated that way legally until the last hundred years.

So yes, you can compare apples to apples and note the progress to be made in women's rights in many countries, but to chalk it up to inherent differences between religions or "Western" vs. "Eastern" culture is just prejudice, and comparing apples to oranges. Our own progress on this front is quite recent, and still ongoing (As with race, gay rights, etc.) In fifty years, things can change drastically in a culture. And it will happen--it is a question of when. There are Islamic scholars calling for more tolerant and looser interpretations of the Koran just as there have been Christian scholars who have done that. And, at whatever stage this process is in, there will also always be backlash from men in established positions. Look at the recent censure of American nuns by the Vatican...
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:28 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):

The head of the religious police responded by apologising to the woman and ordering an immediate investigation of the action of the person in question as he was acting out of the new guidance. Vice police are only allowed to guide you if you are acting out of order, they can not expel you from the shopping centers, they are not allowed to arrest, touch, harm anybody.

So what would be the reason there was no consequence for the incident where these people locked a number of women and girls in a burning school? There were numerous fatalities, and the response was... Nothing. This is unfortunate, but hardly surprising for saudi.
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aloges
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting n229nw (Reply 13):
These blanket statements about Islam are just ridiculous.

They certainly are and sometimes I wonder what they are supposed to achieve... spread fear of a "Green Menace" just like McCarthy's crusade was supposed to scare them of the "Red Menace"?

Anyway, I liked what I read from SOBHI51 and MD11Engineer, so thank you! It's good to see that progress is occurring, however slow and meandering it may be.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
planejamie
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
Can a Saudi woman travel on her own if she wishes? Can she leave the country all by herself with any escort or permission form a man?

Just curious.

Tugg
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Saudi law states that a woman MUST be accompanied by a male guardian (usually a close male relative) wherever she goes. A woman alone in a place other than her home is taboo AFAIK. To leave the country, she must either travel with a male guardian or seek a written permit from him.

Actually, they can leave the country on their own (at least my mum did many times) and she has Saudi friends who have gone in/out of the country on their own many times. Saudi women can't drive themselves but can be driven by a driver who needs a letter to state that either her husband or her father (if not yet married) has permission to drive them.

Women don't need to be accompanied wherever she goes and if you go into any of the malls or even the rougher parts of Riyadh you'll see Saudi women walking alone or in a group of women with no problem at all.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Not if you're a Saudi woman who can't read because you were never permitted to go to school.

True, though that is improving as I believe a new girl's only university has been (or at least was being) built in Riyadh ironically within the airport boundaries (though RUH covers an area of land the size of the island of Bahrain)

I think only the most deprived women or women from a very very traditional background (e.g. ones still living in remote areas and not the towns or cities) cannot read or write. I do agree many still do not work, though that is through choice and not a law.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:28 am

Quoting planejamie (Reply 16):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Saudi law states that a woman MUST be accompanied by a male guardian (usually a close male relative) wherever she goes. A woman alone in a place other than her home is taboo AFAIK. To leave the country, she must either travel with a male guardian or seek a written permit from him.

Actually, they can leave the country on their own (at least my mum did many times) and she has Saudi friends who have gone in/out of the country on their own many times. Saudi women can't drive themselves but can be driven by a driver who needs a letter to state that either her husband or her father (if not yet married) has permission to drive them.

Women don't need to be accompanied wherever she goes and if you go into any of the malls or even the rougher parts of Riyadh you'll see Saudi women walking alone or in a group of women with no problem at all.

Oh well, you were there so you know more than I do. I just posted what I had read. 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:15 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Not if you're a Saudi woman who can't read because you were never permitted to go to school.

Over 132,000 Saudi females were admitted in Higher education programs this year in Saudi universities, around 6000 females are traveling abroad each year to continue there university degrees.

There is over 2000 schools for girls in the Kingdom.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 14):
So what would be the reason there was no consequence for the incident where these people locked a number of women and girls in a burning school? There were numerous fatalities, and the response was... Nothing. This is unfortunate, but hardly surprising for saudi.

This unfortunate incident was caused by fear mainly, the people in charge at the school refused to open the school gates so the girls do not go out, fire brigades could not go in, it was a very sad incident.
Lessons were learned and steps were taken so this incident will not be repeated.
I said it before will say it again, it is not all perfect here but things are improving, not as fast as i love to see but it is improving.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 16):
True, though that is improving as I believe a new girl's only university has been (or at least was being) built in Riyadh ironically within the airport boundaries

Very true, and it is huge, they even have a monorail driven by women.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 13):
These blanket statements about Islam are just ridiculous.

Some here likes to show there prejudice by bringing Islam into any discussion just to prove there hatred to this religion, got used to that and it does not bother me anymore.

Quoting GDB (Reply 3):
You wonder what the normal Saudi cops think of the Mutleys, Mutawa, or whatever these jumped up, illiterate, wannabe panty sniffers are called.
Time wasters at the very least.

I have a hate love relation with those people, but, i feel happy having them around sometimes specially when my daughter and/or my wife go shopping, some of the Saudi male youth are really very rude and like to verbally harass women, and there fear from them keep them in check.

Speaking about education, this woman was having a fight with that person but at the same time she was talking on the phone, tweeting, filming, you tubing and facebooking, or at least that's what she said. Honestly i can not do that.

[Edited 2012-06-05 18:27:39]
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zkojq
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:20 am

Quoting slider (Reply 6):
I'm very proud and happy to see this woman standing up for herself, but in her world, women are property. Period. Been that way in Islam since, oh, the 7th century.

Remind me again what year women in the US legally became separate from their husbands.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I understand that the King curbed the powers of the Mutawa during the last few years, using incidents the Mutawa were involved in to get popular support for his measures.

King Abdullah is very much a reformer (compared to most other Saudis of influence) which is great for Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately progress is slow and his likely successor, Prince Nayef, is a hardcore conservative who seems to want to resist change.

For those interested in this topic I would highly recommend reading a book entitled 'Inside the Kingdom' written by Robert Lacey. It is very insightful on the issue of Saudi Politics.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I have also heard that the King has founded a university in a city close to the Red Sea, where both young men and women are educated together.

KAUST: King Abdullah University of Science and Technology.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 13):
And women in "the West" were treated that way legally until the last hundred years.

   Us in the west seem to forget that all too often.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
I said it before will say it again, it is not all perfect here but things are improving, not as fast as i love to see but it is improving.

  
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PHX787
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:06 am

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
Good going, there is a limit to being dictated it can really put one off religion.

I praise these brave women for standing up to oppression. It's absolutely horrible sometimes   

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
Over 132,000 Saudi females were admitted in Higher education programs this year in Saudi universities, around 6000 females are traveling abroad each year to continue there university degrees.

At ASU, we attract a high number of foreign students from Saudi Arabia, and yet, here, the women who come here are treated the same way as they are back in Saudi Arabia, except by their male peers, instead of their government. I talked to one of them, and after she went away rather sheepishly, she was SLAPPED by this real jack-off of a guy (who later proved to be some huge trouble maker for me last school year,) and when I went to ASU about it, they BANNED me from partaking in tutoring ESL students at ASU. Obviously it's a huge issue, and I think women need to have some huge revolt in that country in order to get what they deserve as humans.



/rant
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:18 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
At ASU, we attract a high number of foreign students from Saudi Arabia, and yet, here, the women who come here are treated the same way as they are back in Saudi Arabia, except by their male peers, instead of their government. I talked to one of them, and after she went away rather sheepishly, she was SLAPPED by this real jack-off of a guy (who later proved to be some huge trouble maker for me last school year,) and when I went to ASU about it, they BANNED me from partaking in tutoring ESL students at ASU. Obviously it's a huge issue, and I think women need to have some huge revolt in that country in order to get what they deserve as humans.


Respect towards women (and girls)n should be taught in the families.
Years ago I´ve been doing some electrical installations in a large second hand furniture shop in Berlin owned by a Lebanese family. While I was working there for about a week I noticed that the oldest son (maybe 13 years old at this time) was acting very much like a spolied brat. He was overweight and was bossing his mother and sisters around in a way which would have earned me a good beating from my father should I have done so at home. The teenage girls (his sisters) on the other hand were quite nice as they were hardworking and obviously used to carry responsibility (like minding their younger siblings and helping in the household) since a young age.
Later in this district with a high number of immigrants, I often spotted the spoiled first sons, who were often bad mannered and egoistical, as opposed to their hardworking, humble and friendly sisters.
I think if you find yourself with a woman from such a family and treat her with the respect she deserves, you´ll find yourself with a woman for life.

Jan
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:54 am

What is the impact of Princess Ameerah Al Taweel regarding the improvement of women's rights in Saudi Arabia?

Of course she is a Prince and Billionaire's chosen wife so she will probably get a different treatment comparing to all other women not of the royal dynasties.

We never see her wearing the hijab/abhaya/niqab in public or at official ceremonies. She always keeps her beautiful hair down and wears make-up. She drives her own car. Maybe this is only because she is a Princess and not just any Saudi Princess?

There seems to be a double standard there. Some of them certainly go wild when they come here to spend their Summer on the French Riviera as it is so terribly hot down in Saudi Arabia. I hold the stories from hotel managers/executives in Cannes and Monte Carlo. Not talking about the goings on their private yachts - unless they cause outer disorder, excessive noise, or pollution, that is of totally private order and nobody's business.

 
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slider
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:35 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
The head of the religious police responded by apologising to the woman and ordering an immediate investigation of the action of the person in question as he was acting out of the new guidance.

Reminds me of Captain Renault....round up TWICE the number of usual suspects.

yawn. All lip service.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 13):
These blanket statements about Islam are just ridiculous.

Did you read the link? Guess not. I can find tons of other articles, observations, and facts on the treatment of women in islamic countries. But for starters, you should start by reading Mona's article and not just close your mind.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 19):
Remind me again what year women in the US legally became separate from their husbands.

Erroneous. Just like the prior statement by someone else about the Bible. The point is that Western civilization HAS reformed. There is a self-admitted tacit understanding that gender rights are an important part of a free society. But there is still human trafficking and clitorectomies going on. That doesn't reconcile.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
What is the impact of Princess Ameerah Al Taweel regarding the improvement of women's rights in Saudi Arabia?

Why would she want to speak out? She has no motivation to do so.
 
777way
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):

Forgot to mention that

“The world is manufacturing airplanes and we are still telling a woman ‘leave the mall because you’ve got nail polish on your fingers’,” News24.com quoted Sheikh Abdullatiff Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, head of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, as telling local daily Al-Watan.."

[Edited 2012-06-06 09:12:38]
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:57 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 23):
yawn. All lip service.

while you are sitting in front of your computer, judging on things you know nothing about, i am here in the same place that this event is occurring, and yes things are changing, it is not lip service but a fact, in the last few days this incident was the talk of the town, and women are encouraged by the results. But you being thousand of miles away you might know better.

Quoting 777way (Reply 24):
“The world is manufacturing airplanes and we are still telling a woman ‘leave the mall because you’ve got nail polish on your fingers’,” News24.com quoted Sheikh Abdullatiff Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, head of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, as telling local daily Al-Watan.."

  
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soon7x7
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:07 am

If the middle eastern women unleash the power that I believe middle eastern men realize but are afraid of, but by virtue of religion, excuse the existence of it by censure...their world will change greatly. It is only a matter of short time. Women will do more to effect change in the region than all the drones the US can fly. "You go girls!"
 
slider
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:15 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 25):
judging on things you know nothing about
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 25):
But you being thousand of miles away you might know better.

I know plenty about it. Nice strawman argument though. I suppose because I'm not black I can't speak about black issues either. Again, yawn.

You do make a point though--there is some change. It's reluctant and window dressing change to placate the international human rights people and get some heat off the Wahhabists. But where is the declaration of human rights? Where is the codified acknowledgement of women's rights? There isn't one. And I'd bet my last dollar there won't be, either in word or deed as long as the preesnt regime exists.

Subjugation of an entire GENDER is incompatible with Western Civilization and the 21st Century. Period.
 
slider
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:26 pm

SOBHI, Since I’m guessing you didn’t read the Foreign Policy article, I’ll excerpt a few components herein, about Saudi Arabia. Of course, the author cites examples from numerous Islamic countries, but I figure I’d cite (fair use) Saudi in particular:

Quote:
But at least Yemeni women can drive. It surely hasn't ended their litany of problems, but it symbolizes freedom -- and nowhere does such symbolism resonate more than in Saudi Arabia, where child marriage is also practiced and women are perpetually minors regardless of their age or education. Saudi women far outnumber their male counterparts on university campuses but are reduced to watching men far less qualified control every aspect of their lives.

Yes, Saudi Arabia, the country where a gang-rape survivor was sentenced to jail for agreeing to get into a car with an unrelated male and needed a royal pardon; Saudi Arabia, where a woman who broke the ban on driving was sentenced to 10 lashes and again needed a royal pardon; Saudi Arabia, where women still can't vote or run in elections, yet it's considered "progress" that a royal decree promised to enfranchise them for almost completely symbolic local elections in -- wait for it -- 2015. So bad is it for women in Saudi Arabia that those tiny paternalistic pats on their backs are greeted with delight as the monarch behind them, King Abdullah, is hailed as a "reformer" -- even by those who ought to know better, such as Newsweek, which in 2010 named the king one of the top 11 most respected world leaders. You want to know how bad it is? The "reformer's" answer to the revolutions popping up across the region was to numb his people with still more government handouts -- especially for the Salafi zealots from whom the Saudi royal family inhales legitimacy. King Abdullah is 87. Just wait until you see the next in line, Prince Nayef, a man straight out of the Middle Ages. His misogyny and zealotry make King Abdullah look like Susan B. Anthony.

How terrific. And how about this one?

Quote:
How much does Saudi Arabia hate women? So much so that 15 girls died in a school fire in Mecca in 2002, after "morality police" barred them from fleeing the burning building -- and kept firefighters from rescuing them -- because the girls were not wearing headscarves and cloaks required in public. And nothing happened. No one was put on trial. Parents were silenced. The only concession to the horror was that girls' education was quietly taken away by then-Crown Prince Abdullah from the Salafi zealots, who have nonetheless managed to retain their vise-like grip on the kingdom's education system writ large.

So can you defend that? It's indefensible.

And one of Mona Eltahawy’s concluding paragraphs just perfectly and succinctly nails it.

Quote:
Our political revolutions will not succeed unless they are accompanied by revolutions of thought -- social, sexual, and cultural revolutions that topple the Mubaraks in our minds as well as our bedrooms.


And I would say that until or unless that happens, the entire Middle East will ultimately crater upon itself because, as I’ve said, this entire way of life in incompatible in modern society. The petrodollars keep the region in the game—if not for that, little has changed in centuries.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 27):
You do make a point though--there is some change. It's reluctant and window dressing change to placate the international human rights people and get some heat off the Wahhabists.

You are calling the changes as window dressing i am calling it an improvement, you will only feel it if you live with it day in and day out, you can not judge things unless you are witnessing the facts.

Quoting slider (Reply 28):
SOBHI, Since I’m guessing you didn’t read the Foreign Policy article

No i did, part of my job is to read such articles.
I did acknowledge a lot of times that things on the ground are not perfect, a quick change might lead to a similar situation as in Iran during the Shah regime. The western media will not push us to go faster than we need to, we know what it is needed we will do it, so don't bet your last dollar against it.
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slider
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:28 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
you can not judge things unless you are witnessing the facts.

Like female circumcisions?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
No i did, part of my job is to read such articles.
I did acknowledge a lot of times that things on the ground are not perfect, a quick change might lead to a similar situation as in Iran during the Shah regime. The western media will not push us to go faster than we need to, we know what it is needed we will do it, so don't bet your last dollar against it.

I disagree. If you don't change quicker, you may find yourself in a full blown revolution. Good luck dealing with that "tension" of subjugating an entire gender as property under some outdated dogmatic precept.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:05 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 27):
I know plenty about it. Nice strawman argument though. I suppose because I'm not black I can't speak about black issues either. Again, yawn.

You know as much as FOX news tells you. When was the last time you were in any Saudi city?

Things are surely changing in Saudi. Last time I was there I stood in front of the Kabah and took a picture of my family in plain view of two Mutawah's, they didn't even bat an eyelid. 10 years ago my camera would have been taken away and a stern lecture given on 'photography in Islam'. Things have changed thanks to King Abudullah.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
slider
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:15 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 31):
You know as much as FOX news tells you.

BWAHAHAA!!! Don't watch it one bit. Nice try though.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 31):
Things are surely changing in Saudi. Last time I was there I stood in front of the Kabah and took a picture of my family in plain view of two Mutawah's, they didn't even bat an eyelid. 10 years ago my camera would have been taken away and a stern lecture given on 'photography in Islam'. Things have changed thanks to King Abudullah.

Do you hear yourself?

So being able to take a picture represents a quantum leap in individual rights?

How cosmopolitan.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:30 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 32):
Do you hear yourself?

So being able to take a picture represents a quantum leap in individual rights?

How cosmopolitan.

So what do you expect in 10 years? It takes time for a generation to let go. Did the US just wake up one day and pass laws to outlaw slavery? Of course not. Saudi Arab is progressing at a pace which will be accepted by its society, King Abdullah knows this well and that is why you see the reforms slowly coming in after public debates.

As I said earlier and so did SOBHI how many times have been to Saudi? A question you so easily passed.

The mutawa's have lost a lot of their powers over the years, that is only one part of the changing landscape in Saudi Arabia.

Quoting slider (Reply 32):
BWAHAHAA!!! Don't watch it one bit. Nice try though.

Shocking considering the advance stages of your Islamphobia.
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
aloges
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:02 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 33):
So what do you expect in 10 years?

Obviously, the answer is "an amount of change much larger than the one for which Barack Obama is vilified".

Anyway, thanks for the info that I've gathered from the replies to slider's rants. It does make a difference and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's happy to read about the advances, small or big ones, in Saudi Arabia.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:03 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 30):
Like female circumcisions?

It is outlawed in Saudi.

Quoting slider (Reply 30):
I disagree. If you don't change quicker, you may find yourself in a full blown revolution.

I am very happy that your are not in charge here. i am sure the king knows the pace needed to make those changes, we do not need outside advice in this matter, thanks but no thanks.
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slider
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:22 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 33):
So what do you expect in 10 years?

You know, I'll humbly apologize here (ignoring more of aloges' usual vitriol which never gets corrected here) and admit to being overcritical here. You are correct that true systemic change DOES take some time.

So I do candidly give a mea culpa here because there is that 'bigger picture' that you so aptly describe. I'm a big enough man to admit when I may be too aggressive in following a theme. I don't want to chase a rabbit down a hole blindly at the risk of losing making a point entirely.

You're right in noting the timelines for such major changes. However, I would also respectfully say that your example of slavery in the US may not be the best proxy; there were very stong fundamental disagreements on the issue during our founding--so strongly in fact that the ratification of the Constitution itself was very much in question. It's that basic and foundational disagreement that I *don't* see happening in the Middle East today, in any of the 57 states in OIC or any islamic nation. There are small pockets of resistance, such as the woman who speaks out, but no organized or principled difference of opinion. I would contend that's because of the very structure of islam itself.

My point in being so vehement about pointing out the facts in the Middle East relating to the treatment of women and human rights in general is to shine som light of truth on the matter. SOBHI correctly points out some minor reforms in process but what troubles me is that he and others won't openly and outwardly say "we're screwed up, we recognize that, it's not acceptable but we're working on it".... There is a perverse defense of it in a way really.

And in the end, I can't blame him or others, because it's an identity crisis for muslims overall frankly. It goes back to the root question of whether or not their prophet is infallible or not....because reforms would threaten that veyr notion, thus placing their entire dogma in jeopardy.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 33):
Shocking considering the advance stages of your Islamphobia.

No, that's not true either. I'm not afraid of it, because I have taken the time to learn about it. I just don't like it. There's a difference. And I'm at least honest enough to admit that too.
 
aloges
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:45 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
ignoring more of aloges' usual vitriol which never gets corrected here

I do beg your pardon, but which "vitriol" are you referring to? All I did was thank a couple of members for their posts and point out the uselessness of generalisations as well as (your) rants.

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
I'm at least honest enough to admit that too.

You as opposed to whom?   
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Quokkas
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:00 pm

Things are far from perfect in Saudi Arabia (and other parts of the region) and SOBHI51 has acknowledged that on many occasions in many threads so it is wrong to accuse him of being "in denial," as so many people do.

Quoting slider (Reply 27):
But where is the declaration of human rights?

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. To answer your question: it is nailed on a wall in Guantanamo. It is enshrined in recent US legislation that allows abductions from foreign countries without the approval of those countries, strips people of their rights to access to a lawyer, prevents a person from knowing their accuser or on what evidence they are being held, and subjects them to arbitrary detention in the name of security.

Now I know that some people in the US (and you may be among them and it is not my purpose to criticise you when Australia has its own faults) are not happy about that and that some have sought to challenge things. The fact that such legislation can continue to exist suggests not enough people have. But I appreciate that things take time to filter through. The fact is that the US published a document proclaiming " All men are created equal" and then took another 100 years to abolish slavery and longer to grant equal status to women can not simply be brushed under the carpet. Yes some wanted to change things sooner, but the change did not happen in the same instant that is demanded elsewhere. Don't get me wrong: I am not justifying tardiness on the part of countries in the Middle East. Merely suggesting that no one is in a position to criticise others for being slow when the other so-called civilised countries also took their own sweet time.

The US has made enormous advances and can be proud of that. But before criticising others they should remember their own history and not Photoshop it. None of which reduces the faults of other societies, including Saudi Arabia, which has a long way to go before everyone is considered "equal before the law." But let us not ignore the fact that that those that criticise others often have faults that they would often wish others would forget about. There is nothing worse than self-righteousness as it sometimes is a cover for hypocrisy .

Freedom can not be bestowed from above. It can only be taken by those who want it. Those who have studied the US Revolution should surely understand that. I can only welcome the actions of this woman, whoever she may be, and express the hope that she did not suffer any repercussions. As soon7x7 suggested: when Saudi women begin to unleash the power they process, changes will come about much faster than people in the US or here in Australia may imagine. The reality all around the world is that no group of people in power has ever relinquished it voluntarily. The slave owners did not wake up one morning and think that it was a good idea any more than the rulers of a theocracy will wake up and think that the emancipation of women is a good thing. The emancipation of women in Saudi Arabia and other countries will come about in the same way that it came about in the West; through the self-activity of women themselves. That's the only desirable change and something to look forward to.

[Edited 2012-06-08 09:09:31]
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
WestJet747
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:59 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
SOBHI correctly points out some minor reforms in process but what troubles me is that he and others won't openly and outwardly say "we're screwed up, we recognize that, it's not acceptable but we're working on it"

If I may:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
I said it before will say it again, it is not all perfect here but things are improving, not as fast as i love to see but it is improving.
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
I did acknowledge a lot of times that things on the ground are not perfect

-------------------------

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
No, that's not true either. I'm not afraid of it, because I have taken the time to learn about it. I just don't like it. There's a difference. And I'm at least honest enough to admit that too.

Without veering too off-topic, do you also dislike Christianity? Islam and Christianity both have very positive and very negative components to them, yet it would seem you have a particular disdain for only one of them.

From my own observations, I've seen a greater effort to change on the part of the Muslims. Saudi Arabia may be falling behind other Middle Eastern nations, but we cannot write them off simply because they aren't changing as fast as the West would like. As you so admit, change is a very slow process, and slow change is a whole lot better than no change.   
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SOBHI51
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
No, that's not true either. I'm not afraid of it, because I have taken the time to learn about it. I just don't like it. There's a difference. And I'm at least honest enough to admit that too.

Because you are only looking for the negative aspects from your own point of view, i am sure even you can find some positive in Islam, or in your case maybe not.

Quoting slider (Reply 36):
And in the end, I can't blame him or others, because it's an identity crisis for muslims overall frankly. It goes back to the root question of whether or not their prophet is infallible or not.

Our guidance in Islam comes mainly from the Koran, As from prophet Mohammed we consider other than being a prophet he is a human, after his death people started to doubt things so those famous words came " for you who believed in Mohammed , he is dead, but for you who believe in God he is alive". We find it insulting to be called Mohamadian and not Muslims. Last but not least we believe that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (among others) are Prophets, period.

[Edited 2012-06-08 10:06:34]
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Kiwirob
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 31):

Things are surely changing in Saudi.

That's interesting and I applaud it, however it appears to me that things are going backwards pretty fast in Turkey, I was there 12 years ago and barely saw a women in a burka, yet last weekend there were fully covered women all over the place.
 
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:39 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):
Merely suggesting that no one is in a position to criticise others for being slow when the other so-called civilised countries also took their own sweet time.

Again, your lengthy retort notwithstanding, my point wasn't that we have been slow to change, but that even when--even in the very midst of making mistakes--there was a collective realization among many (thanks to the freedoms we have codified thank God) that we were doing the wrong thing. You don't hear that kind of public declaration by any islamic leaders. If there are, I'd love for someone to cite it.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 39):
Without veering too off-topic, do you also dislike Christianity? Islam and Christianity both have very positive and very negative components to them, yet it would seem you have a particular disdain for only one of them.

I'm well aware of the major warts in Christianity as it also has been practiced throughout the centuries. I'm no theologian, and in fact gave up on my Catholic upbringing decades ago. But again--and I can't even recall how many times in this forum I've repeated this--there was a massive reformation in Christianity. There were factions, denominations and fractures that were marked, deliberate and sizable. What I am not certain of, because of the very dogmatic foundations est down by the islamic prophet, that there cannot be a reformation on their end.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
Because you are only looking for the negative aspects from your own point of view, i am sure even you can find some positive in Islam, or in your case maybe not.

What do you see as the biggest positives in Islam? I mean, in your opinion, what is it that you most savor and appreciate? I'm asking you seriously--not to be argumentative, but to learn.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
Our guidance in Islam comes mainly from the Koran, As from prophet Mohammed we consider other than being a prophet he is a human, after his death people started to doubt things so those famous words came " for you who believed in Mohammed , he is dead, but for you who believe in God he is alive". We find it insulting to be called Mohamadian and not Muslims. Last but not least we believe that Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed (among others) are Prophets, period.

Right- he is human and not divine, yet is hailed as the paragon and model for islamic virtues, correct? Ie: is it understood that a good Muslim ought to emulate his works?
 
Quokkas
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:46 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 40):
i am sure even you can find some positive in Islam

لقد ولدت في ليبيا

Because I can see from your posts that you would like things to improve, I find it troublesome when others refuse to listen to what you are saying because of their preconceptions. Despite being not a Muslim I wish you well. I know that you are a man of good will.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 41):
yet last weekend there were fully covered women all over the place.

By choice. It is still the law in Turkey that in public schools, for example, religious coverings may not be worn. Mind you, I admit that I haven't been in Turkey since 2009.

During my travels I have noticed that while a "couple" of years ago many Muslim women would have opposed the wearing of religious coverings, in response to insistent demands by people who don't understand Islam many women have chosen to wear garments that others find disturbing. There has been a definite change from a few years ago when many women would have rejected coverings to the position now where many feel that an assault is being made upon their religion and so they feel the need to adopt it. The demand by idiots who hate difference to abolish something has produced a reaction to defend it. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there were not those who imposed laws banning wearing something, with time its use would have disappeared in the West.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
Right- he is human and not divine, yet is hailed as the paragon and model for islamic virtues, correct? Ie: is it understood that a good Muslim ought to emulate his works?

Don't Christians emulate Jesus, or take him as an example, Ie turn the other cheek etc...
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 43):
I know that you are a man of good will.

Thank you.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 43):
During my travels I have noticed that while a "couple" of years ago many Muslim women would have opposed the wearing of religious coverings, in response to insistent demands by people who don't understand Islam many women have chosen to wear garments that others find disturbing. There has been a definite change from a few years ago when many women would have rejected coverings to the position now where many feel that an assault is being made upon their religion and so they feel the need to adopt it. The demand by idiots who hate difference to abolish something has produced a reaction to defend it. I have no doubt whatsoever that if there were not those who imposed laws banning wearing something, with time its use would have disappeared in the West.

I have lived a long time in Egypt, i was in a mix school, in the 70's girls were wearing miniskirts and the smallest bikini's available, those same girls now "much older' are wearing head scarves long sleeves and skirts. I agree with your assessment that this is there way of counter attack the western propaganda war against there religion. Nobody can say that there parents forced them.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:08 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
I have a hate love relation with those people, but, i feel happy having them around sometimes specially when my daughter and/or my wife go shopping, some of the Saudi male youth are really very rude and like to verbally harass women, and there fear from them keep them in check.

I think you are confusing cause with consequence. How come other, reasonbly muslim countries in SE Asia in particular don't need a religious gestapo yet women are pefectly safe while out in the public alone?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 43):
The demand by idiots who hate difference to abolish something has produced a reaction to defend it.

Ataturk was an idiot?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 43):
I have no doubt whatsoever that if there were not those who imposed laws banning wearing something, with time its use would have disappeared in the West.

You got it all wrong. Bans on people dressing like tents in public was a mere reaction to the increasing number of people who blatantly ignored the centuries long consensus on what's acceptable and what is not in terms of displaying religious allegiance and I think it is perfectly legitimate for the French or Dutch to legislate it if they deem it necessary. It's a sign of desperation rather than meaningful tool to combat extremism.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 44):
Don't Christians emulate Jesus, or take him as an example, Ie turn the other cheek etc...

I would still vouch that there is a "slight" difference between emulating pacifism or passivity of Jesus and literally emulating Mohammed's paedophilia and well documented cruelty.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
even in the very midst of making mistakes

So when you do it it is a mistake but when somebody else does it it is a glaring flaw. Interesting: mistake and basic flaw.

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
there was a collective realization among many

But for a long time not the majority or sufficient to change things. Interesting: when you are slow there is a justifiable explanation but when others basic flaw.

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
codified thank God

Interesting: Muslims claim Allah as a basis is wrong but claiming God is OK.

Quoting slider (Reply 42):
don't hear that kind of public declaration by any islamic leaders

That would of course depend on which threads you choose to follow. Islam is, and never has been, uniform. There are and have been for centuries many schools and thoughts within Islam as any scholar who spent even five minute would know. Even in the US there are Muslim organisations who have tried to clarify their views, but they have been either ignored, dismissed or castiagted. Exactly what is it that you want? Links have been provided in numerous threads in the past.

As I have said to to SOBHI51, I am not a Muslim, although having been born in a Muslim country. I recognise that Islam, like all religions, has its flaws. Many Muslims are seeking to improve their lives within their religion and it is the height of arrogance to pretend that only one society has the answer to everything.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
Quokkas
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 46):
You got it all wrong.

Maybe you can explain why it was disappearing in so many countries before this reaction?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 46):
and literally emulating Mohammed's paedophilia

Of course, given the history of the Catholic Church in defending those who rape of children, why would I bother to reply? After all, if the Pope is infallible and God's representative on Earth, and he personally has covered up for rapists, how can raping children be wrong? Except of course that every 21st century person thinks it is. But that doesn't mean that it was seen as such several centuries ago.

In 1396, Richard II of England was joined in marriage to young Isabel of France, who had been 7 years old when their engagement was announced the previous year in Paris. Were either of them, or their families Muslim? Methinks not, Indeed, they would have described themselves as Christian.

As I have said previously: those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. Far better to discuss things based on current practices and knowledge than on prejudice, methinks.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
slider
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RE: Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police

Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 44):
Don't Christians emulate Jesus, or take him as an example, Ie turn the other cheek etc...
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 46):
I would still vouch that there is a "slight" difference between emulating pacifism or passivity of Jesus and literally emulating Mohammed's paedophilia and well documented cruelty.

Well said L410, although that's the kind of factual statement that's gotten me in hot water with mods before.

And yes SOBHI, we should seek to emulate Jesus' teachings. That's a critical piece of Christianity in that the New Testament followed the Old Testament: often critics of Christianity, or those moral relativists seeking to discredit it, quote the 'wrath of God' Old Testament stuff without having a comprehension that it was Jesus--the new covenant--that came afterwards. The concept of abrogation exists in Islam as well, as part of their very sacred texts, and that's a problem because what came AFTER overrides what came before...and that is a bloody awful thing.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 47):
So when you do it it is a mistake but when somebody else does it it is a glaring flaw. Interesting: mistake and basic flaw.

No--you missed entirely what I wrote. It's the self-awareness and admission of it. I admire SOBHI for making that tacit albeit reluctant admission, but I think as this thread has progressed there's more of an understanding.

However Quokkas, yes, there IS a difference between admitting your nation's flaws, owning up to them--even if painfully and reluctantly (hello, Civil War, hundreds of thousands dead)--and quite another to have a system of governance where this is no distinction between political and religious. In islam, that is the construct and it's problematic for a number of reasons.

You see, Islam doesn’t have a ‘natural’ or God given sense of morals. They’re based strictly on the examples of the prophet and, because of that and that the Quran is the eternal, unalterable words of Allah himself, there is also no evolving morality that permits the modification or integration of islamic morality with that from other sources. The entire Islamic moral universe devolves solely from the life and teachings of their prophet...and to the points L410 made, that life and those teachings (particularly after 632 AD) are not terribly comfortable ideas or actions. And THAT is the crux of the fundamental disagreement I have with islam.

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